It came home. Hope, hope came home

[GunmaN1905]

5 minutes ago, Paul Bacon said:

We were the better side the first half, they were the 2nd and in ET. Yea we didnt finish them off and take our chances, but its not like they walked all over us. Both had chances to win, they just took theres. Doesnt mean we arent evenly matched

And its not fair to compare trophies as our team is alot younger so naturally wont have as many

England started losing control around 30th or so minute. You basically didn't make a single shot during the whole second half and ET except for a couple of set-pieces.
And that really says something when you're supposed to be better on counters and played against a fairly slow defense.

It doesn't have to be a walkover for someone to be better.
It's been 20 years since a team turned things around in WC semis, coincidentally it was France against Croatia. And that means something. You really do have to be a better team to get out of the deficit in such a huge game.

About trophies, age and experience also play the part in overall quality of a player.

And England still has room for growth. But not as much as you think.

Young is done, his Replacement Rose is 28.
Henderson and Walker are also 28, Trippier is 27. I don't see them suddenly jumping to a top class level.
Lingard just doesn't have the quality for this level, imo.

That's already half of the team.
And the lack of class midfielders is going to hurt you in a long run.
RLC could be great, but who else is there?

As we've seen from Croatia's example, midfield is by far the most important part of the team in modern football.
With a top class midfield, deficiencies in the rest of the team can be compensated for much more easily.

[oche balboa]

Croatia had an average of 61 caps per player. Ours was about 27..... 

 

There defence was shaky but the midfield was strong.  

[m_fenton]

34 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

In games with evenly matched teams, when one gets an early lead, they usually finish the opposition off.

In a post fall of bizarre statements, this one won it for me.

In games with unevenly matched teams, one team usually beats the other in 90 minutes.

Croatia played better, but there wasn't a huge gulf between them. On another day England go in at half time 2 or 3 up, then see out a comfortable victory. On another, Trippier hits the bar with his free kick and Croatia probably don't need extra time.

[decapitated]

I think Croatia were the better team on paper and in the match, but if England finished off more of their chances in the first 30 minutes, it would have finished 2-1 or 3-1. One problem with this world cup has been teams (even the better ones) setting great goalscoring chances and fluffing them comically.

[GunmaN1905]

7 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

In a post fall of bizarre statements, this one won it for me.

In games with unevenly matched teams, one team usually beats the other in 90 minutes.

Croatia played better, but there wasn't a huge gulf between them. On another day England go in at half time 2 or 3 up, then see out a comfortable victory. On another, Trippier hits the bar with his free kick and Croatia probably don't need extra time.

You have to look at the circuimstances.

Conceding a goal so early in WC semi final just 3 days after playing 120mins is huge.
Most teams never come back from that.
It's not some regular league game. Hence the stat of this being the first semi-final comeback after 20 years.

And then, 20mins later, when Croatia withstood couple of dangerous attacks and recovered, England looked completely lost.
There was not a single chance you created outside of two set pieces.
Your defense was in shambles and it could've easily been over in the regulation.

That was the difference, England couldn't recover like Croatia did.
You didn't defend well, you had no dangerous counter-attacks, you looked completely lost.
 

[Baptista_8]

Bottom line is Kane HAD to take that chance, as 2nd half we were terrible. Croatia has a slight edge over us, mainly in midfield and wings/attacking mid. IE Perisic and Rebic are more decisive than Sterling and Alli.

[pearcey_90]

17 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

 

And England still has room for growth. But not as much as you think.

Young is done, his Replacement Rose is 28.
Henderson and Walker are also 28, Trippier is 27. I don't see them suddenly jumping to a top class level.
Lingard just doesn't have the quality for this level, imo.

That's already half of the team.
And the lack of class midfielders is going to hurt you in a long run.
RLC could be great, but who else is there?

As we've seen from Croatia's example, midfield is by far the most important part of the team in modern football.
With a top class midfield, deficiencies in the rest of the team can be compensated for much more easily.

Sessegnon will be replacing Young if 3 at the back stays under Gareth. I'd get him straight into the squad in the Nations League and see how he does against Spain/Croatia. Got TAA for RB if he continues to progress like he has this season. In the midfield area we've got mutiple talented kids that are progressing, just the major barrier for them is breaking into the top sides. I just hope they don't take the contracts, and do what quite a few are starting to do and run them down and move to a club where they will get the opportunities, because the top clubs can always sign them for big money if they do become good.

[Pukey]

37 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

And England still has room for growth. But not as much as you think.

Young is done, his Replacement Rose is 28.
Henderson and Walker are also 28, Trippier is 27. I don't see them suddenly jumping to a top class level.
Lingard just doesn't have the quality for this level, imo.

That's already half of the team.
And the lack of class midfielders is going to hurt you in a long run.
RLC could be great, but who else is there?

As we've seen from Croatia's example, midfield is by far the most important part of the team in modern football.
With a top class midfield, deficiencies in the rest of the team can be compensated for much more easily.

Our record at youth level is outstanding. Pearcey has already touched on a few so I think we're sorted* for the next couple of years at least, and by then we'll see which of the U20s from last year makes the step up, then by 2022 we'll have even more while keeping some big players like Stones, Kane, Sterling, Alli, Pickford, even Maguire won't have reached 30 yet.  I have huge hopes that Lewis Cook will progress further and become a hugely important player. Still only 21 and he's terrific, and still at a club where he'll play every week in the PL. You can't just pick old players and act like there's no one to replace them, there could even be the odd 22/23 year old in the championship that suddenly starts developing, Maguire went to the euros as a fan 2 years ago, nobody would have picked him out as a key player for two years' time.

*By sorted I mean being able to keep at our current level, which is probably QFs of tournaments with the odd chance at further. 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Yeah @Pukey. Hopefully we can get some momentum going over the next few years and have a squad that always has a good core of lads who know how to play and win matches at major tournaments whilst at the same time being able to bring through young talent.

[buffalo]

2 hours ago, bestbrother said:

Cant believe we are not in the Final. It was our year 

same feelings in Belgium tbh :/

let's call the Saturday match the real final then

[buffalo]

11 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Yeah @Pukey. Hopefully we can get some momentum going over the next few years and have a squad that always has a good core of lads who know how to play and win matches at major tournaments whilst at the same time being able to bring through young talent.

tbh you have a promising young squad

especially compared to other countries

well bar France maybe

Spain needs major rejinxing

Germany did well in the Confeds with a young squad but maybe not ready next tournament

Portugal as EC now still based on old players

 

[Wiggins Top Boys]

You know, whatever else is said about England and this tournament, I dont think I'll ever forget that moment of us winning the penalty shootout. Something changed, we banished that horrible curse, the current team will gain so much mentally from that, fantastic.

I've posted this about 38 times on this forum but I can't get enough of it. I've just watched it again and even though the tournament is over for us its still spine tingling.

 

[skybluedave]

To be the first to miss too and then bounce back. All of us back home assumed it was done when Henderson missed. 'Oh here we go again' 

Christ. The rollercoaster of emotions I felt during that game. Conceed last minute. Be turd for first half of extra time. Be better for 2nd half. Then winning on pens. That final 45 mins probably too a few years off my life

[Anthrax Dave]

Feeling really depressed this evening :-(

[Baptista_8]

3 minutes ago, Anthrax Dave said:

Feeling really depressed this evening :-(

It hit me really hard last night. Was ok at full-time then i was nearly in tears by the time I went to bed. Been ok today but been busy tonight so not had time to think.

[themadsheep2001]

6 hours ago, m_fenton said:

In a post fall of bizarre statements, this one won it for me.

In games with unevenly matched teams, one team usually beats the other in 90 minutes.

Croatia played better, but there wasn't a huge gulf between them. On another day England go in at half time 2 or 3 up, then see out a comfortable victory. On another, Trippier hits the bar with his free kick and Croatia probably don't need extra time.

This. Lots of unsubstansiated fluff being posited as fact

[ArsenalFan7]

What I've gathered from this experience is that quite a few of the rest of the home nations fans are a sad bunch, actively trying to trample over the joy us English fans were having. When Wales were at the Euros, I wanted them to do well, I also wanted Scotland to qualify for this. Nice to have a bit of friendly rivalry but unbelievably sad the effort many of the Irish, Welsh and Scots put into rooting against us.  

Don't see great potential for success in the future, I think this was the chance and think I'll have to wait until I'm at least nearing 40 to experience this again. The French have a national pool to dominate, Germany and Spain will come back strong and then Italy, (potentially) Holland will revitalise (that's just considering Europe). So long as the team is as likeable as it was this time round, I don't care though.

Never been big on international football, think this was the first time I've felt properly immersed in the national team since I was an 8 year old watching an unplayable Rooney play at the Euros and subsequently having my dreams crushed vs. Portugal. Can only applaud Southgate and this set of players for what they've done in reinvigorating my interest in the national team, I was so wrong about Southgate.

[Bliss Seeker]

*finds himself unknowingly whistling It's coming home and stopping half way through the chorus with a frown*

[HOORAY HENRIK]

22 minutes ago, ArsenalFan7 said:

What I've gathered from this experience is that quite a few of the rest of the home nations fans are a sad bunch, actively trying to trample over the joy us English fans were having. When Wales were at the Euros, I wanted them to do well, I also wanted Scotland to qualify for this. Nice to have a bit of friendly rivalry but unbelievably sad the effort many of the Irish, Welsh and Scots put into rooting against us.  

I wonder how long you’d want Scotland to do well if you had to watch the tournament from an entirely Scottish perspective. Trips to Scotland HQ every pre/halftime/post match to discuss our last match, next match and the size of our players heads.

I give it 3 days.

[Bliss Seeker]

Tbh, i love it when any of the home nations do well and enjoy the extra coverage when they get to tournaments. 

2 years ago there was loads of Welsh updates and stuff, that was great.  I enjoyed hearing about Robson Kanu's cat. 

Understand there's a historical edge the other way, so it's not the same. You're always going to hate on the bigger better imperial powerful brother, but most English people genuinely back our little brothers and want them to do well. 

 

[Hodgy]

3 hours ago, HOORAY HENRIK said:

I wonder how long you’d want Scotland to do well if you had to watch the tournament from an entirely Scottish perspective. Trips to Scotland HQ every pre/halftime/post match to discuss our last match, next match and the size of our players heads.

I give it 3 days.

Well you'd most likely be wrong.

I am English but I'm also British and I support every home nation in every sport I watch when they're playing anyone but England, I want them all to qualify for major tournaments and if they get there I would love to see them win the tournament as long as it wasn't at Englands expense, I'm proud to be British and I always want the British teams to win over any other nation, the majority of English sports fans seem to feel this way too, there are a few who may not of course but the majority definitely do.

A question I'd like to know the answer to from Scottish. Welsh and Irish supporters is do you also want the other home nations to lose/fail or is it just England? I'm sure it's the latter but it'd be nice to know.

[skybluedave]

4 hours ago, HOORAY HENRIK said:

I wonder how long you’d want Scotland to do well if you had to watch the tournament from an entirely Scottish perspective. Trips to Scotland HQ every pre/halftime/post match to discuss our last match, next match and the size of our players heads.

I give it 3 days.

Pretty much happened with Wales at the last Euros. 

[The_jagster]

I do get Hooray Henrik's point tbf, when ITV decided we were supporting Ghana in 2010 I actually found the Suarez handball really funny rather than feeling bad for the team that should have won.

[Citizen Sandman]

[Baptista_8]

I'm honestly surprised our average is as high as 5.9.

[m_fenton]

It's a good job set pieces still count as "football" then isn't it. Don't remember this sort of fuss about Beckham scoring too many free kicks.

[JD nawrat]

38 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

It's a good job set pieces still count as "football" then isn't it. Don't remember this sort of fuss about Beckham scoring too many free kicks.

Should be major alarm bells when you make it to the semis with the worst of 8 records in the whole competition - only 4 of them got to the KOs ffs.

[m_fenton]

1 hour ago, Baptista_8 said:

I'm honestly surprised our average is as high as 5.9.

I've just checked - looks like the stat is wrong anyway. It should just be "shots", not "shots on target".

 

Doesn't change my point though. Football's about scoring more goals than your opponent. If your strength is set pieces, score them from set pieces. It just seems weird to be banging on about as if they are somehow inferior.

16 minutes ago, JDownie said:

Should be major alarm bells when you make it to the semis with the worst of 8 records in the whole competition - only 4 of them got to the KOs ffs.

No major alarm bells for making it to the semis ffs. Yes, I wish we could have done as well as Poland, but we'll just have to put up with a semi final appearance instead of finishing bottom of our group, knocked out before the final group game.

[Wiggins Top Boys]

major alarm bells ffs we scored the joint second most goals in the tournament 

[JD nawrat]

Just now, Wiggins' Young Boys said:

major alarm bells ffs we scored the joint second most goals in the tournament 

Because you got a good group draw. 

4 goals in 3 KOs was it? 

When you defend the way England defend (shabbily), you need to be scoring more than that (see: Belgium). 

Yes a SF is a great but if you want to just look at the final destination rather than the journey there then by all means don't let me stop you. But that statistic has England in amongst some of the smallest and worst and most defensive teams at the WC, teams England have no right appearing alongside. And you're okay with that because "We got a semi-final lol"

Maybe the semi-final feels as good as winning it but if England attempted to be more attacking in open play, maybe you'd have scored more goals and would have been playing in the final on Sunday. 

It's great to exceed your expectations of course it is, but the minute you start justifying poor performances or ignoring areas that blatantly need improved upon (open play attacking) just because "semi final yay", it sets a strange precedent. If England always make SFs but continually play with a massively wasteful style of play and bottle against teams they are leading, at what point do you finally start to criticise? 

The whole "I don't care we were actually really disappointing from open play because we got to the semi finals" is a José Mourinho attitude. Expected better from you guys, you're not even United fans ffs.

[JD nawrat]

7 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

I've just checked - looks like the stat is wrong anyway. It should just be "shots", not "shots on target".

 

Doesn't change my point though. Football's about scoring more goals than your opponent. If your strength is set pieces, score them from set pieces. It just seems weird to be banging on about as if they are somehow inferior.

No major alarm bells for making it to the semis ffs. Yes, I wish we could have done as well as Poland, but we'll just have to put up with a semi final appearance instead of finishing bottom of our group, knocked out before the final group game.

If you got drawn in that group in place of Poland, are you sure you'd still have easily made it through the groups? I, for one, am not.

[Wigmore]

@JDownie I think most rational England fans will tell you that we're really not very good and had a very fortuitous run. The reason we are happy is because of two things, which I think you are overlooking.

1. Whilst we're still not very good, we are leaps and bounds better than the teams of 2014 and 2016.

2. England teams for the last 20 years or more have been chock full of unlikable arseholes and completely disconnected managers. The team now are relatable and have an absolutely dreamy manager. Most of us are just happy that we can justify actually supporting our national side again, where a lot of us haven't for a number of years. The Sweden game in particular, I've never seen a collective spirit like it in this country, it was brilliant.

[Barry Cartman]

5 minutes ago, JDownie said:

The whole "I don't care we were actually really disappointing from open play because we got to the semi finals" is a José Mourinho attitude. Expected better from you guys, you're not even United fans ffs.

What utter nonsense

Its a every 4 Year tournament where for the past 28 years we've been lucky to play more than 3 games in, trying to compare our outlook on a Mourinho side that plays 60 games a season is total ********  

[JD nawrat]

Just now, Wigmore said:

@JDownie I think most rational England fans will tell you that we're really not very good and had a very fortuitous run. The reason we are happy is because of two things, which I think you are overlooking.

1. Whilst we're still not very good, we are leaps and bounds better than the teams of 2014 and 2016.

2. England teams for the last 20 years or more have been chock full of unlikable arseholes and completely disconnected managers. The team now are relatable and have an absolutely dreamy manager. Most of us are just happy that we can justify actually supporting our national side again, where a lot of us haven't for a number of years. The Sweden game in particular, I've never seen a collective spirit like it in this country, it was brilliant.

I get both of these. As I've said before, I actually wanted England to do well because this is a likeable team and the attitude it different. 

But I don't think that means you just sweep the facts under the carpet because "we made a semi-final". Who cares, really? Other than yourselves? It's just the 2nd and 3rd best losers isn't it? England should've been in the final after that first 45 mins. They could've sent Croatia home at HT. 

[JD nawrat]

4 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

What utter nonsense

Its a every 4 Year tournament where for the past 28 years we've been lucky to play more than 3 games in, trying to compare our outlook on a Mourinho side that plays 60 games a season is total ********  

**** me. 

"The ends justify the means" is a total Mourinho attitude. He doesn't give a **** about anything other than the result. England fans being the exact same, dismissing a damning stat like only 6 open play shots in 10 hours as fine because "we did better than before".

 I'd be embarrassed by Scotland having 6 shots from open play in 10 hours. Even if we won the tournament I'd still be questioning why things weren't being done to remedy this. Not just happily accepting it. 

Whatever. Not my argument. Said my piece. 

[Barry Cartman]

2 minutes ago, JDownie said:

England should've been in the final after that first 45 mins. They could've sent Croatia home at HT

and Croatia with some of the best midfielders in the World should have played much better 1st half and got better as the game went on, its not as simple as saying oh yeah England should have buried them 1st half. Even being 2-0 up at half time is no guarantee we would have gone through 

[Barry Cartman]

Yeah i'd go as far as saying at a World Cup that happens every 4 years people care more about results than how many shots we had 

[Barry Cartman]

4 minutes ago, JDownie said:

I'd be embarrassed by Scotland having 6 shots from open play in 10 hours

Yeah i'm sure you'd be sat their head in shame had Scotland got to the semi final of the World Cup with 6 shots from open play 

[m_fenton]

4 minutes ago, JDownie said:

  I'd be embarrassed by Scotland having 6 shots from open play in 10 hours. Even if we won the tournament I'd still be questioning why things weren't being done to remedy this. Not just happily accepting it. 

Not a bloody chance.

[JD nawrat]

1 minute ago, Barry Cartman said:

Yeah i'd go as far as saying at a World Cup that happens every 4 years people care more about results than how many shots we had 

You're being so stupidly reductive.

I'm done. Enjoy your success

[Wiggins Top Boys]

thank **** for that, see ya

[m_fenton]

Can we start the 2020 Coming Home thread yet?

[TM]

7 minutes ago, JDownie said:

 I'd be embarrassed by Scotland having 6 shots from open play in 10 hours. Even if we won the tournament I'd still be questioning why things weren't being done to remedy this. Not just happily accepting it.

I wouldn't I'd be quite happy to know we've found somebody who can deliver a setpiece - although Griffiths can take a good freekick as England will know about

[Barry Cartman]

Discussing how we can improve and areas where we failed is perfectly fine, but when you're trying tie that into you should be embarrassed of the performances and just dismissing the fact that we scored a ton of goals in the tournament when others have been completely defence is just purposely trying to downplay what we achieved at this World Cup

[JD nawrat]

2 minutes ago, TM said:

I wouldn't I'd be quite happy to know we've found somebody who can deliver a setpiece - although Griffiths can take a good freekick as England will know about

Of course I'd be loving it making the semis but if there are clear problems with the team I'd be questioning why my manager (who still turns me on) isn't trying to address it. Probably the main reason England didn't get to the final as they just didn't create enough. 

Imagine England against this France side. No setpieces and even if you do get one, they just pack the box anyway. 

I'm not trying to detract from England's achievement. I'm just saying that they clearly haven't been a good team to watch unless you're an England fan. And that would bother me if it was my team. I want to see my team playing well. Not a disjointed mess playing for corner kicks. 

What's next, Rory Delap gets a call up because that way Maguire has more aerial balls to challenge? 

[JD nawrat]

1 minute ago, Barry Cartman said:

Discussing how we can improve and areas where we failed is perfectly fine, but when you're trying tie that into you should be embarrassed of the performances and just dismissing the fact that we scored a ton of goals in the tournament when others have been completely defence is just purposely trying to downplay what we achieved at this World Cup

I didn't say you should be embarrassed by the performances. I said I'd be questioning why my manager isn't trying to correct it and be embarrassed to celebrate such clear weaknesses. 

We aren't celebrating England winning the WC by playing crap football. We're celebrating England getting to a semi final. 

Your team can most definitely be criticised and poor attacking displays in open play is definitely one of the things you can criticise them for. They weren't good enough. If you wanna think otherwise fine, but saying my opinion is rubbish just because I'm not English is a load of bollocks and you know it. 

[westy8chimp]

@JDownie gets it

[m_fenton]

19 minutes ago, JDownie said:

Of course I'd be loving it making the semis but if there are clear problems with the team I'd be questioning why my manager (who still turns me on) isn't trying to address it.

What makes you think he isn't trying to address it?

[pearcey_90]

16 minutes ago, JDownie said:

Of course I'd be loving it making the semis but if there are clear problems with the team I'd be questioning why my manager (who still turns me on) isn't trying to address it. Probably the main reason England didn't get to the final as they just didn't create enough. 

Imagine England against this France side. No setpieces and even if you do get one, they just pack the box anyway. 

I'm not trying to detract from England's achievement. I'm just saying that they clearly haven't been a good team to watch unless you're an England fan. And that would bother me if it was my team. I want to see my team playing well. Not a disjointed mess playing for corner kicks. 

What's next, Rory Delap gets a call up because that way Maguire has more aerial balls to challenge? 

There hasn’t been many sides that played well. France outside the period Mbappe blitzed Argentina slow defence have been just as rigid and painfully boring as England, just they have a lot more quality to get that goal in open play before sitting back again. 

Its no secret we lack quality at opening sides in open play, been that way since Capello days. Southgate just implemented a rigid system that the players all knew their jobs and it meant remaining solid, using set plays because that was a strength that needed highlighting (we actually played to our strengths for once at a tournament) and use the pace in transition to try and score from open play. 

Question now moving forward, will be if Southgate moves away from 3 at the back and expands slightly with the clearly talented young attacking players we have emerging and will be more prominent leading towards 2020 and further.

[TM]

all really boils down to two sides of the discussion - do you want the performance or the result?

I doubt anyone in Greece were that bothered when they won Euro 2004 with backs to the wall performances and set piece goals.  Lots of people want both but sometimes it's impossible to get them both