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Attacking and Possession


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17 hours ago, juusal said:

Retain possession reduces risky passes (or through balls) which isn't directly visible on the TI screen. And of course reduces passing length and tempo.

I already know that. And I can read. No need to repeat it.

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Really a great topic. This year I stumbled upon some problems when playing a 4-1-4-1 on Standard and Flexible (instead of the 4-3-3 on Standard and Very Fluid that I used in previous versions) that mainly had to do with the W(s), CM(s) and a WB(s) on the other side being too reluctant pushing forward. Looking at their mentality bars as suggested by this thread, I decided to up my mentality from Standard to Control as this tweaks their mentality in a more subtle way than just giving them an attacking mentality on Standard which was way too aggressive.

Now I will have to do some play testing, to find out if that really fixed my team's tame efforts on goal in combination with low possession numbers (that still lead to quite a number of drab wins).

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  • 2 weeks later...

Reading the OP I understand this as another way of creating a possession tactic. Previously, I based myself on threads like this, who use lower collective mentalities to establish possession indicators like playing narrower, lower tempo and closing down, and then adding TIs to suit as desired.

In the case of the OP, 'retain possession' is used to restrain the more direct minded intents of the attacking mentality, while the rest of the settings remain associated with an aggressive style of play.

All this leads me to ask if I can use this template for formation that don't necessarily match a possession game, but will still do it well with this combination of mentality + TI.

For example, in a classic 4-4-2 I could try to restrain the players from pumping the ball into the box so relentlessly?

GK/d

FB/s - CD/d - CD/d - FB/s

W/s - BWM/d - BBM/s - W/s

TM/s - P/a

I think this would still result in a direct game but it's worth a shot.

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On ‎06‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 11:38, kingjericho said:

Reading the OP I understand this as another way of creating a possession tactic. Previously, I based myself on threads like this, who use lower collective mentalities to establish possession indicators like playing narrower, lower tempo and closing down, and then adding TIs to suit as desired.

In the case of the OP, 'retain possession' is used to restrain the more direct minded intents of the attacking mentality, while the rest of the settings remain associated with an aggressive style of play.

All this leads me to ask if I can use this template for formation that don't necessarily match a possession game, but will still do it well with this combination of mentality + TI.

For example, in a classic 4-4-2 I could try to restrain the players from pumping the ball into the box so relentlessly?

GK/d

FB/s - CD/d - CD/d - FB/s

W/s - BWM/d - BBM/s - W/s

TM/s - P/a

I think this would still result in a direct game but it's worth a shot.

Anything can work if it's well balanced.

2 things I'd watch carefully with the above however - wingers are designed to run the line and pump in crosses; and everybody might try seeking out the Target Man.  That may prove problematic with possession although if you win the ball back quickly when possession is lost that may mitigate things somewhat.  Try it out :thup:.

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Just now, herne79 said:

Anything can work if it's well balanced.

2 things I'd watch carefully with the above however - wingers are designed to run the line and pump in crosses; and everybody might try seeking out the Target Man.  That may prove problematic with possession although if you win the ball back quickly when possession is lost that may mitigate things somewhat.  Try it out :thup:.

This is my favourite style and I'll try to create something with this. Attacking mentality sounds perfect, and while I won't look for high possession the balance on roles/duties you explain is very useful for any setup.

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  • 1 month later...

Only just happened across this thread, Herne. It's an absolute corker.

Love the unorthodox set-up and how you've balanced everything out in such a simple way using mentality/shape and limited TI's.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Il 23/2/2018 in 16:37 , herne79 ha scritto:

Tactical Settings

Team Shape - I'm going to spend as much time talking about this as I did deciding what to use.  Flexible.  Done.

Team Instructions - I only use 2 (very occasionally a 3rd) but there is only one really important one: Retain Possession.  It reduces passing length and reduces the amount of risky passes (aka through balls). 

Hi Herne, this is from your OP.

I'm wondering...if Retain Possession reduces through ball, why is the corresponding instruction of Pass Into Space not marked as contradictory?

 

Il 22/3/2018 in 09:58 , herne79 ha scritto:

Welcome to the forum :).

Retain Possession reduces passing length and through balls (aka risky passes).

Shorter Passing reduces passing length and tempo.

Are you sure of this?

When I choose Retain Possession on TI screen, it reduces the tempo by one notch (or similar).

Edited by idoru
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@idoru @herne79 Could this be some combination of TIs changing whether or not Retain Possession lowers tempo? As I just looked at my current tactic (Control, Shorter Passing, Play Out Of Defence, Close Down More) and went through all five mentalities and Retain Possession didn't change tempo. Or is it an invisible change, like how most of us don't understand Work Ball Into Box? 

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16 minutes ago, idoru said:

Now I'm out of home, I have to check this...but I'm pretty sure that in TI screen, when you click Retain Possesion it reduces the tempo slider

Thanks for picking me up on this.

There has been some confusion on Retain Possession - as @HUNT3R says above there seems to have been a time when things were changed.

However, I've now confirmed with the SI devs that Retain Possession does indeed reduce Tempo as well as risky passes and passing length.  I'll amend my post above.

Good spot :thup:.

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7 ore fa, herne79 ha scritto:

Thanks for picking me up on this.

There has been some confusion on Retain Possession - as @HUNT3R says above there seems to have been a time when things were changed.

However, I've now confirmed with the SI devs that Retain Possession does indeed reduce Tempo as well as risky passes and passing length.  I'll amend my post above.

Good spot :thup:.

this info shouldn't be in some random thread on the forum. It should be written in big red letters just under Retain Possession tab.

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So Retain Possession reduces tempo in combination with any instruction except Close Down More?

666545204_ScreenShot2018-05-28at22_55_47.thumb.png.c363c8885abe1474de89982fd7005996.png809901399_ScreenShot2018-05-28at22_55_57.thumb.png.84928d21e203b116dc01a2d0b9adc32a.png

As you can see above - no drop in tempo when Retain Possession is ticked. Yet on any other level of Closing Down (including Much More)...171884346_ScreenShot2018-05-28at22_57_26.thumb.png.bf9771b1fc8cb55c7c5461ecd2acdfe3.png636531071_ScreenShot2018-05-28at22_57_36.thumb.png.fa5560b8ade5781bfa213d9c5988eedc.png

Is this the only exception?

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1 hour ago, MBarbaric said:

this info shouldn't be in some random thread on the forum. It should be written in big red letters just under Retain Possession tab.

It's literally the first FAQ in the FAQs section pinned to the top of the forum in the "Please Read" thread :thup:.

1 hour ago, zlatanera said:

So Retain Possession reduces tempo in combination with any instruction except Close Down More?

This appears to be a UI glitch which SI are investigating.

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  • 2 weeks later...
6 hours ago, davidbarros2 said:

In what situations do you use the other mentioned TI's (push higher up and drible less)?

I can guess push higher up is against weaker oppositions or when you are one goal down and need to react?

It's circumstantial and depends on how things are going during a match.

So I may use push higher up if I feel we're losing out in midfield to apply more pressure or my defence is being too passive.  Dribble less may be if I feel our possession could be better, although with the team now firmly established in Serie A with better players that's not one I'd use often now.  That's just a couple of examples and there'll be other times I'd use those changes.

What I'll never do however is change something just because the opposition is weaker or because we go a goal down.  If I see we're not playing well enough then I may change things but the context of what is happening is the important part.  For example:

  • We concede in the first 2 mins.  Do I change anything?  Very unlikely because it's generally too early in the match to see if we're playing poorly.
  • We're dominating the game but concede a goal from a set piece after 20 mins.  Do I change anything?  No, we're playing well.
  • The opposition are all over us and we concede a goal.  Do I change anything?  Very likely yes as we're playing like spanners - but I'll change things because we're playing like spanners, not because we conceded.
  • We're dominating the game but concede a goal from a set piece after 75 mins to go 1-0 down.  Do I change anything?  On the face of it this is perhaps the toughest call because it's so late in the match.  But it's actually easy - if we're dominating so much but still haven't scored after 75 mins, something's wrong and needs changing.  If I lost that kind of match I'd be having serious words with myself afterwards.

That's what I mean by context.  Understand why something happened, not because it did happen.

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I'm using this 4x2x3x1 and it play god dam possession footbal,

My goal is to win the center of the field and try to overload the opposition back line with the Poacher , Enganche  and the two inside fowards making movements from outside to inside, and then the fullbacks explode on the flanks.

 

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Some videos of open plays

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by kun^^
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  • 2 months later...

I've done a lot of reading over the last couple of days whilst I remodelled a tactic as I didn't think we could progress in the CL and the first post in this thread has to be one of the best-explained and logically thought-through posts I have read in a while (not meant as a sleight on anyone else, just that this totally clicked!). I really like the explanation of mentality, the example of so few attacking duties and how overall team mentality couples along with duties. As a long time FM player (since CM02, I think...), I genuinely hadn't made this connection and it's really helped explain a few things. Thanks @herne79 :) 

Some testing and tweaking later and everything has culminated with this result against a vastly superior Real squad in the CL. It took a couple of minutes before I had the courage to hit 'submit team' and go for the Attacking mentality at home to Madrid, but I am so glad I did! Worth mentioning that their two goals were pretty much entirely a product of me having no idea what to do when 5-0 up against one of the best sides in the world, panicking and hitting Control, then reverting to attack five minutes later! There's more learning to be done...

madrid.png.e3646522109f91c7cf90ec93a0474

Tactic is currently looking like this, based on quite a few of the principles in the OP, some of @Cleon's threads and a number of other things - I've done a lot of reading. Not claiming it's anywhere near perfect, but it is starting to produce some really nice football. Changes based on this thread were taking the Left full back and Advanced Playmaker off Attack and adding in the Retain Possession:

image.thumb.png.4ae93e7a34f40a29db83cd17595b4e2a.png

I'm still not 100% set on the CM pairing and their roles, but what I'm really liking is the amount of shots from near the edge of the box that this generates - FM doesn't treat them as 'clear cut chances' or 'half chances', but because of how central they are and the space I've generated, we stand a much better chance of scoring from them (IMO). 

Anyway, long-winded way of saying thank you for this thread being that next piece in the jigsaw of understanding how everything fits together.

Edited by b101
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Great job @b101 :thup:.

52 minutes ago, b101 said:

Worth mentioning that their two goals were pretty much entirely a product of me having no idea what to do when 5-0 up against one of the best sides in the world, panicking and hitting Control, then reverting to attack five minutes later! There's more learning to be done...

Haha.  What to do when 5-0 up with 15 mins left?  Nothing, go for the throat !  Don't just win, destroy :D.  Top result though, looks like RM didn't get a sniff all match.

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1 minute ago, herne79 said:

Great job @b101 :thup:.

Haha.  What to do when 5-0 up with 15 mins left?  Nothing, go for the throat !  Don't just win, destroy :D.  Top result though, looks like RM didn't get a sniff all match.

Thanks :) - a pinball goal and taking advantage of my centre backs having absolutely no heading ability...! Loving this learning curve though and I'm enjoying FM more than I have in years at the moment.

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This thread really opened my eyes and its like a small manual for the game. I've monitored things a lot closer and it makes the tactical aspect of the game so much simpler. Combining this with the mentality calculator https://theresonlyoneball.com/2018/01/23/a-mentality-and-team-shape-calculator-for-football-manager-2018/ has absolutely changed my tactics creating. I feel like I understand a lot more, and can go into a season with a better plan of how to approach it. Will follow this.

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  • 8 months later...
6 minutes ago, Hibs29 said:

How can I recreate retain possession on football manager 2019 since it's not there anymore.

Lower tempo, width and less through balls?

 

Also I can't find mentality bar for players.

Any help

 

Shorter/ much shorter Passes and less Risky Passes.

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