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SI and the "customer service"


Guest El Payaso

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Guest El Payaso

This is going to be a rant so don't read it if you feel like it. This will also probably be my final message to this community and I was thinking for a long time if I want to publish it or not.

The thing that I want to talk in here is not the game itself as with more than 100 hours recorded once again it was once again well worth the 45€ I spent on it. Most of them have been as I've been buying every one of them since FM 2007 and spent so many hours and years within the series. But I think now my time as SI client is done and I will explain the reasons now.

I have told during the past year how I feel that I have been totally ignored as match engine bugs reporter for more than a year and what I am telling is the truth. During FM 2018 process I reported on about ten different threads of which one was reviewed by the dev-team and even that for a reason that wasn't the actual thing I was reporting on. I even tried asking through a private message about week ago. Never got an answer and when checking three days later if the message was already read by one of the devs I could see that he read it 5 minutes after I sent it. When I look at my attachments that I have uploaded I can also see that majority of them have never been downloaded by anyone which tells me that they are not checking them at all.

I have been buying the game for more than ten years now and I have made all my reports according to the guidelines and in a constructive manner. I doubt that I am a person that deserves this kind of treatment that already started when I was a beta tester (for years before now chopped off).

The ignoring is not limited just on bug reporting. This year I also placed two questions in the "ask SI anything"- thread. One was about the aims in terms of AI and difficulty level within the game and other about a new mod for players who would like to have more challenging FM experience. These two questions were important to me because they basically determine if I want to keep buying the game as I don't enjoy the game that much anymore as my careers always follow same paths and they always last just for couple of seasons. These questions were valid and written in respective matter but once again the team kept answering for other users but mine got no attention.

I'm not only sad or offended for my behalf as it might be that all my content is just so bad that there isn't a point even check it. But by fact there are many others in this forum who produce quality and detailed reports for the SI and try to help in terms of developing the game and still get ignored. And at the same time some ranting Chinese does get his answers...

There have been even cases of clear misguiding the users by the development team as they have been telling users to upload the examples to the bugs forum so they can review them and eventually those threads have only ended up being unanswered.

In terms of the ME there seems to be a clear denial on many issues nowadays: last year the wingers' buggy defensive positioning was not directly admitted to be a problem even though everybody in this forum could see what was happening and the same goes this year with for example shooting quality. Everybody watching the highlights can clearly see that there is an issue but this is explained by "shots with weaker foot" and stats that we are not able to see anywhere ourselves. While on the other hand the same rules don't seem to apply on crossing as players are regularly able to cross just fine with the weaker foot and from full speed.

Last year I was reporting on lack of bad first touches in the lower league as I felt that my team in the Conference was playing way too delightful football without any technical limitations to be seen. This was answered something like this "even players in the local park can control the ball perfectly under pressure". This is a bit conflicting to me as now you cannot expect a decent shooting quality from top class professionals even though the players in the local park can control the ball perfectly. And I see heavy touches at the top level regularly...

I wouldn't mind a bit of ignoring but more than one year is more than enough for me and for me it's time to move on from this community and from the game. And even if I will buy the game in the future I will make sure that SI will not see a penny of my money if I do. 

I wanted to write this because I think that a public criticism is well deserved from my behalf and from others. I hope that more people will make their opinion clear instead of just silently accepting bad service. I wouldn't take this bad customer service from my telephone company so why should I accept it from them? This company provides easily the worst customer service experience that I have faced during my whole life. You could even call this as cyber bullying but I wouldn't go that far. 

From a former fan of SI and the FM series. 

I had much longer and more detailed message written on my now dead laptop but I think that this will give you an idea of how I feel like. 

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A mature response in here from SI not a Moderator is needed . I agree that bug complaints go unheard as the same bugs appear year after year . But hey you know that they make millions and people will still buy so what is the point of complaining.  

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12 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

This is going to be a rant so don't read it if you feel like it. This will also probably be my final message to this community and I was thinking for a long time if I want to publish it or not.

The thing that I want to talk in here is not the game itself as with more than 100 hours recorded once again it was once again well worth the 45€ I spent on it. Most of them have been as I've been buying every one of them since FM 2007 and spent so many hours and years within the series. But I think now my time as SI client is done and I will explain the reasons now.

I have told during the past year how I feel that I have been totally ignored as match engine bugs reporter for more than a year and what I am telling is the truth. During FM 2018 process I reported on about ten different threads of which one was reviewed by the dev-team and even that for a reason that wasn't the actual thing I was reporting on.

I have been buying the game for more than ten years now and I have made all my reports according to the guidelines and in a constructive manner. I doubt that I am a person that deserves this kind of treatment that already started when I was a beta tester (for years before now chopped off).

The ignoring is not limited just on bug reporting. This year I also placed two questions in the "ask SI anything"- thread. One was about the aims in terms of AI and difficulty level within the game and other about a new mod for players who would like to have more challenging FM experience. These two questions were important to me because they basically determine if I want to keep buying the game as I don't enjoy the game that much anymore as my careers always follow same paths and they always last just for couple of seasons. These questions were valid and written in respective matter but once again the team kept answering for other users but mine got no attention.

I'm not only sad or offended for my behalf but many others who produce quality and detailed reports for the SI and try to help in terms of developing the game and still get ignored. And at the same time some ranting Chinese does get his answers...

There have been even cases of clear misguiding the users by the development team as they have been telling users to upload the examples to the bugs forum so they can review them and eventually those threads have only ended up being unanswered.

In terms of the ME there seems to be a clear denial on many issues nowadays: last year the wingers' buggy defensive positioning was not directly admitted to be a problem even though everybody in this forum could see what was happening and the same goes this year with for example shooting quality. Everybody watching the highlights can clearly see that there is an issue but this is explained by "shots with weaker foot" and stats that we are not able to see anywhere ourselves. While on the other hand the same rules don't seem to apply on crossing as players are regularly able to cross just fine with the weaker foot and from full speed.

Last year I was reporting on lack of bad first touches in the lower league as I felt that my team in the Conference was playing way too delightful football without any technical limitations to be seen. This was answered something like this "even players in the local park can control the ball perfectly under pressure". This is a bit conflicting to me as now you cannot expect a decent shooting quality from top class professionals even though the players in the local park can control the ball perfectly. And I see heavy touches at the top level regularly...

I wouldn't mind a bit of ignoring but more than one year is more than enough for me and for me it's time to move on from this community and from the game. And even if I will buy the game in the future I will make sure that SI will not see a penny of my money if I do. 

I wanted to write this because I think that a public criticism is well deserved from my behalf and from others. I hope that more people will make their opinion clear instead of just silently accepting bad service. I wouldn't take this bad customer service from my telephone company so why should I accept it from them? This company provides easily the worst customer service experience that I have faced during my whole life. 

From a former fan of SI and the FM series. 

I had much longer and more detailed message written on my now dead laptop but I think that this will give you an idea of how I feel like. 

I feel you, I trully feel.
I've a lot of great ideas and great discussions simple being ignored by SI,while some nonsense topics attract a lot of attention from the mods and devs.

Some of my ideas were ignored too, and sometimes I really fell concerned about FM's future, some bugs don't see to get their attention they need.

I didn't bought this year edition,and I am expecting to see some improvements on FM19,or it will be a skip year again.

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3 hours ago, El Payaso said:

In terms of the ME there seems to be a clear denial on many issues nowadays: last year the wingers' buggy defensive positioning was not directly admitted to be a problem even though everybody in this forum could see what was happening and the same goes this year with for example shooting quality. Everybody watching the highlights can clearly see that there is an issue but this is explained by "shots with weaker foot" and stats that we are not able to see anywhere ourselves. While on the other hand the same rules don't seem to apply on crossing as players are regularly able to cross just fine with the weaker foot and from full speed.

Of all the valid things you brought up, this is the issue that annoys me the most, so much so that I didn't buy fm18 and I probably won't buy subsequent installments until this behaviour changes. It's tiring seeing the constant defending of clear issues, to the point that some threads get closed for almost no reason. I prefer not to buy the game and not experience that kind of stress.

And as for bug reports, SI should understand that they're already walking a very thin line by requiring paying customers to leave the game, come online to the website, create an account, read up on the formats for bug reports and learn about pkms, all in order to create a report for which they are in no way compensated. If not for a nostalgic love of the game I'm sure a lot of users wouldn't even bother, as I myself personally don't as I'm not motivated to do their job for them. But the worst part is seeing such time-consuming endeavors made completely out of goodwill being either completely ignored, trivialized, or argued against by other users or mods. This should really never happen even if the poster is dead wrong with their observations.

 In any case, I don't usually rant/ complain that much about products because I'd much rather go the less stressful route of not buying the product the next time. However, I would prefer to buy fm19, but this all depends on if I see a product worth buying and good customer service. The ball's in SI's court, and to me at least, it starts with thread like these. 

 

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5 hours ago, El Payaso said:

I have told during the past year how I feel that I have been totally ignored

I've been following you for more than a year now (including the beta testing phases) and I'm honestly amazed how long you've kept at it. You've posted so many bug reports, indicated so many issues, got involved in so many deep discussions...and you've been routinely ignored most of the time. At the very best, you got bull*hit replies we can all see through.

You got it off your chest, but surely you don't expect nothing more than a stock response by devs or an arrogant dismissal from a mod, "supported" by a bunch of excuses and fragile arguments. Past experience must have thought you something.

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I too have found that the general the customer service is well below par. Now a lot of the time when this type of thing gets brought up, someone will always say something like “value for money”, “playtime”, “replayability” and key words like that.

Well of course it’s lots of play time, it’s an advanced management simulation game, you don’t notice half the issues until you’ve played 50 hours or so, as is the nature of the game.

For me I first started to notice this poor customer service with FM14 for PS Vita. It released in April, a month before season ends, and got no data updates. Again this was defended with replayability. Game was out dated within a month..

Football Manager Classic 2015 then moved to the iPad, this also at first got an April release, with no data updates. FM 16 then released on iPad in the same year. No discount for FM15 owners.

You can cry replayability as much as you want. This is awful customer service.

I appreciate SI is a small team, but SEGA is a large publisher, and FM18 was a AAA priced release. Although my issues are historic. The same excuses are still there, and based on your post, I see no improvement in the customer service provided.

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I am very sorry to hear this as ElPayaso always provided genuinely good feedback. I am not saying it is, but, if it isn't an attempt to get attention, the only thing one can do is to stop buying the game if he feels it isn't up to a standard. 

SI are a business and they deal with their game as they feel most profitable. There's little we can do about it except stop buying the game. I've done it after FM16 and won't buy a new game until things I feel important are fixed. That being said, I understand the OP but we can't really influence them other than stopping to pay for the game.

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14 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

I am very sorry to hear this as ElPayaso always provided genuinely good feedback. I am not saying it is, but, if it isn't an attempt to get attention, the only thing one can do is to stop buying the game if he feels it isn't up to a standard. 

SI are a business and they deal with their game as they feel most profitable. There's little we can do about it except stop buying the game. I've done it after FM16 and won't buy a new game until things I feel important are fixed. That being said, I understand the OP but we can't really influence them other than stopping to pay for the game.

MBarbaric I couldn't disagree with this more if I tried. Stopping buying the game will have zero impact on SI, as they sell huge amounts of copies, the vast majority going to people with minimal interaction with the game who don't notice even the most glaring of issues.

Making a post like ElPayaso's is exactly what you can do, although there is no guarantee of it working, as has been shown by SI's recent approach.

The discussion reminded me of this hilarious post from a mod who, with reference to my post above, I actually have long considered to be one of the better ones

https://community.sigames.com/topic/420054-regen-hair-vs-ethnicity/?tab=comments#comment-11204550

No.

1. because it's their time.

2. If there is a company listening to their customers, it's SI.

But there might be decisions for the future of the game, that could cause issues like that...

-------------

This point 2 is plainly laughable, even if we assume (which I don't accept), that SI do listen an adequate or proportionate amount.

Given the issues of newgens, manager faces, FM18 UI, etc etc etc, and without regard to the rights and wrongs of any specific matter, KUBI's point 2 is a manifest lie and typical of the nonsensical waffling the community regularly has to face at the hands of the mods.

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6 minuti fa, Per Annum ha scritto:

MBarbaric I couldn't disagree with this more if I tried.

well, i don't know if I am right or wrong. it is just how I feel about it. 

Some time ago I've realized this game isn't what I look for anymore. The main reason being the lack of any tactics improvements and general (lack of) main concepts of modern football in the game.

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You just have to look at the bug report I have done for set pieces in this thread
 



Basically, as a customer I have posted screens clearly showing the problem and the set pieces setup to simulate it yet I am still being requested to submit more technical stuff. I simply have to do their job for them. On top of that despite so many other players including one of the mod here complained about the same problem SI still does not want to consider it a bug nor does SI care to clearly show how to solve such problem. Seems like it's a top top secret to have a correct setup to mark the guy outside the penalty box in set pieces.

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One if the difficulties with the match engine is that player errors are most of the times the reason for goals in football. Poor defending is something that happens every week. I have seen bug reports in which people posting every single error in defending as a bug. If every of this error would be fixed the ME would become complete unrealistic, especially for lower league football. I think the reason why the coders are asking for various examples is to find "real" bugs, errors that happens in a similar way with different teams and players.

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7 hours ago, masno said:

I feel you, I trully feel.
I've a lot of great ideas and great discussions simple being ignored by SI,while some nonsense topics attract a lot of attention from the mods and devs.

Some of my ideas were ignored too, and sometimes I really fell concerned about FM's future, some bugs don't see to get their attention they need.

I didn't bought this year edition,and I am expecting to see some improvements on FM19,or it will be a skip year again.

Highlighting your post because of the words I've highlighted, but - playing devil's advocate - a general question for this thread... How do you know your ideas/suggestions/reports are being ignored? Is it simply because it's not officially responded to by SI? 

Is it actually possible for them to reply to every request, suggestion and bug report? I would argue probably not...especially as a lot of the time the 'bug' isn't a bug but a quirk of the ME or a quirk of football that you are just unhappy happened to you.

 

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I've stopped buying the game on the basis that it gets released in November, yet it is usually March before any bugs get ironed out to make it playable at all. The ME in particular seems to have got worse and worse over the years. Granted, it may look the part, but that seems to be where all the effort has gone. I'm actually playing older versions, '09 at the moment. It may not look as good, but it plays and feels as it should, and has the element of realism that todays versions are sorely missing. Maybe a back to basics approach would be worth considering. Make the game enjoyable again folks. It's no longer fun to play on the whole.

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vor 3 Minuten schrieb neilhoskins77:

 Maybe a back to basics approach would be worth considering. Make the game enjoyable again folks. It's no longer fun to play on the whole.

I guess that you will find people who "totally agree" with this.

But if you start to explain in detail what you consider "fun to play" you will end up with a endless discussion, because people have all different ideas and preferences. 

The game already offer a lot of options to delegate or disable things, probably it needs a lot more, but then it could become a nightmare to start a new save and to consider every single option that could be ticked.

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5 minutes ago, KUBI said:

I guess that you will find people who "totally agree" with this.

But if you start to explain in detail what you consider "fun to play" you will end up with a endless discussion, because people have all different ideas and preferences. 

The game already offer a lot of options to delegate or disable things, probably it needs a lot more, but then it could become a nightmare to start a new save and to consider every single option that could be ticked.

I think a large part of the problem is that every time someone posts something that SI don't agree with, they are asked to 'explain in detail', or send a dozen examples. Do you believe that every person who purchases the game is aware that these forums exist? Or do you think it's possible that people see that opinions and posts from posters are treated in a robotic and inflexible manner, and they think better of airing their own opinions?

You're never going to satisfy all of the people, all of the time. It's just not possible in any walk of life. But you will never in a million years convince me that the attention in recent years hasn't gone into the aesthetics of the game, and 'bugs' are being 'explained away' and 'dismissed'. People get that defenders make mistakes, people get that goalkeepers spill balls. People do not get that players crosses from the byline find their way into the far corner eight times a season. People don't get why their top end full back gets skinned half a dozen times on a Tuesday evening at AFC Fylde by a grey player, who then proceeds to send in a string of absolutely perfect crosses at a full speed that defies his 2 rating for pace and his 4 for crossing, all while ignoring the almost waterlogged pitch.

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If even @ElPayaso is giving up, all hope is lost ;)

 

Jokes aside, he's right and I can totally understand his frustration. For the Nth time, we're not talking about some minor aesthetic issues or about "I can't win the CL with Watford in 2019"...

The BASICS of the game have been regressing over the years. Bugs and quirks we've been reporting in detail, version after version, patch after patch, are still there in all their glory. Or have been overmedicated, creating similar, but opposite, issues.
And all we got is a "oh well, the game has been improving a lot, we had 456145 fixes you can't see right away but that are definitely there" at best. Or "We can't fix it now, but it's in our to-do list for 20xx" at worse. All the while mods or other meembers keep on defending the game well beyond a reasonable level of loyalty... Heck, I got a warning for using the word "apologist", as if I was cussing or something. (Sorry, I can't let that go...)

 

There clearly are issues that should have been solved, or at least limited, years ago. The "he surely didn't mean that" chance/goal on miskicked crosses is probably the most blatant. Alongside AI squad-bulding, registration problems, unrealistic transfers (like mediocre over 30 players relocating across the continent or the globe for peanuts), tedious and improbable media interactions... And the list could go on and on and on...

 

The most frustrating part, besides the token replies, is how we, paying customers, are expected to still be unofficial beta-testers. I can understand the need for a savegame if I report a unique bug that's the result of uncommon combinations of events, but if I'm reporting rather general problems or scenarios that can be replicated in 10 minutes, I don't see why I should keep 20 saves around just in case something odd happens and the devs need a save "before the problem occurred".

 

I don't really care if I still get "value for money" or "longevity" because the fact is out of the 200 hours I may have played, a tiny fraction of those have been actually enjoyable. The rest was painful trial-and-error with TC, PI, OI, interaction, press conferences, team dynamics... all of that while trying to find a career I can enjoy with a better fun/fuss ratio.

 

48 minuti fa, KUBI ha scritto:

But if you start to explain in detail what you consider "fun to play" you will end up with a endless discussion, because people have all different ideas and preferences. 

Again, we're not debating about "I want to spend my wage on blackjack and hookers" or "I want to design my team's uniforms".

The debate is about how many huge FLAWS have been around for like a decade, basically since the inception of the 3D (and some were probably already in the 2D, but were less blatant due to the less impactful visual).

I think nobody would argue that having CBs defendig properly, FBs not leaving acres of space out wide, wingers understanding crossing, and shots not hitting the corner flag wouldn't make the game more fun. Or at least more realistic
Then there's the TC, but that's a bigger debate. Still, having understandable and straigh-forward TI is another rather universal point we can all agree on...

All the current instructions only create confusion, while an ACTUAL wizard, a WYSIWYG tactical creator would solve half of our problems and reduce the amount of rant topics in GD:

It's not about "fun", it's about FM being a football management game, not a Football Manager management game

 

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1 hour ago, KUBI said:

I guess that you will find people who "totally agree" with this.

But if you start to explain in detail what you consider "fun to play" you will end up with a endless discussion, because people have all different ideas and preferences. 

The game already offer a lot of options to delegate or disable things, probably it needs a lot more, but then it could become a nightmare to start a new save and to consider every single option that could be ticked.

The most enjoyable part should be the ME, to watch it and analyze and as a manager to react to what I see.

If the ME animation cannot offer it, how is that a manager game? if the animation isn't accurate how i suppose to analyze?

i.e. A player wins the ball, and suddenly he stops running toward the ball and the opposition player just runs at him and steals the ball.

Now, i saw many people here saying it's an animation issue which make sense, how as a user i suppose to analyze such issues in football terms?

The game is in a very bad shape and this issue is also not new and was already in FM15 (in FM15 i just started to play the game, so i don't know if it even was in previous releases).

3 years this animation issue couldn't be fixed?

you can add this as another example of @El Payaso frustration.

but with all the respect to you, @KUBI you are just a mod, so you canno't do anything so it's pointless.

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2 hours ago, KUBI said:

One if the difficulties with the match engine is that player errors are most of the times the reason for goals in football. Poor defending is something that happens every week. I have seen bug reports in which people posting every single error in defending as a bug. If every of this error would be fixed the ME would become complete unrealistic, especially for lower league football. I think the reason why the coders are asking for various examples is to find "real" bugs, errors that happens in a similar way with different teams and players.

That was actually something I was accused of through a private message by SI team last year even though I have always been only raising such defensive issues that would never happen in real life. I got quite offended and told this person (don't want to mention who it was) that as you can see I haven't updated any of my threads for more than a week and I will not in the future and that claim that I raise every defensive mistake I see in the ME is totally false and disrespectful but never got a reply back to this anymore. The result was that this year I was chopped from the testing team that I had worked for ever since FM 2015 and I could roughly say that I did my share and always tried to keep posting quality content... 

Of defensive errors I would say that I was roughly posting 15% of what I saw and those were ones where defenders clearly froze into a position or walked in the wrong direction when a ball was played in. You mean those obvious ones that make things look really poor. 

I was expecting that this thread would get more negative reception but I am grateful that I have managed to get some support. I doubt that this will change anything but I think that it was better to make my feelings clear and actually make this a public thing instead of just silently drift away from the game. If SI at some point decide to actually bring something to FM players like me (a more challenging game in general) then we might see again but otherwise this is the goodbye.

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I have to agree with most of the points made here by El Payaso. It seems obvious that are some subjects that SI doesn't want to discuss, and they must have their reasons. But I said it before, the way users like El Payaso get ignored, even if mods say there's 3 pages of replys, that doesn't mean that it is not being ignored by the majority of people who usually discuss those subjects. And seeing rant threads getting attention, and seeing mods answering to El Payaso that he is's not being ignored, but after that, they continue to ignore the good points he brings to discussion, is very very odd. They could prove him wrong, but choose not to.

And speaking about me, I uploaded a bunch of pkm's on bugs forum. Mods said, the worst than can happen is you will learn what you are doing wrong, because they will answer you. And they said it to other users as well, SI team always answers. Well, that's obviously not true. I still love the game, not playing much FM 18 anymore, but surely I'm buying FM 19. But if SI has problems with some things being discussed, some ME stuff, that's ok, but is better to say it to users like El Payaso, that I think is clear that he brings to the discussion very valid points, but make clear to him and others, that some stuff, is not up to discussion.

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@El Payaso I salute your efforts as I believe you are helping the community as a whole. 

I am guilty of not reporting errors that I see, although I am not that observant of ME issues that I know you and others are. Whenever I see something out of the ordinary I often let it go because A) I don't really think it will change anything and B) I rely on others to report that same thing, because I always someone like you or others will pick up on it and do the reporting here.

I for one hope you'll stick around and keep up the good work.

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In SI’s defence it’s very obvious there are fundamental issues with the match engine and how it integrates with the myriad of systems and attributes in its current form. I don’t know for sure but my view is that it’s well past it’s sell by date and needs an overhaul. I’m not even convinced everything is working as it should under the hood due to the complexity. For example, does the attribute ‘decisions’ work as it should do? What about ‘penalty taking’? Sometimes certain things appear genuinely broken. From a branding and commercial perspective it’s catch 22 for SI and they have to be careful what they say in this social media obsessed world. 

However what might help is being a bit more transparent about future plans. There must be a roadmap that can be shared a little more? Is a brand new engine being worked on? Do they accept some things just won’t be fixed in this version of the ME?

There’s no easy answers here as an overhaul will take time and won’t be perfect but the current engine just doesn’t cut it in any way I’m afraid. It’s old, antiquated and completely not representative of modern football. 

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It's really great to get feedback from the community and as with all things where we get an opportunity to, we'll read and respond where possible. In regards to the match engine it really is a gargantuan bit of work. Every single change can have a knock-on elsewhere, so it's not a case of turning a tiny wheel and say lower league touches are made worse - this would have a huge knock-ons everywhere. We know the match engine can and will get better. But it's not something that can happen overnight.

In regards to how we deal with feedback, bugs being raised and 'customer service' we're not perfect and have never claimed to be. Simply put, we at SI don't have a dedicated customer service team. Every SI Staff member who replies has a full job elsewhere, be it as a developer or a member of our QA department. More often than not, certainly on the bugs forum you'll get a response from a member of our QA team. Each member of our QA team has a lot of responsibilities in regards to testing the game, logging issues found personally or by the community, re-testing those issues when they've been addressed by developers and of course shaping the areas of the game we're responsible for. So in short, we have a limited scope in order to respond to every forum thread raised. This may mean if we see a bug raised on the forums we've already got logged or are aware of, we may not respond directly to the thread. This is something in a perfect scenario we do want (and something we've certainly discussed before before) every single raised bug thread should have a response from an SI staff member. The fact they don't is something we hold our hands up to and say we need to improve. 

Even now if you look on the match engine bugs forum you'll find whilst not every single issue is responded to, our match team do a very strong job of making sure raised issues are addressed and entered into our bugs database. Even at a point months after the game was released - which is also of great credit to our community, that users are still raising issues at this stage. 

It's also a bit of an isolated case in regards to the OP, El Payaso. As he said within his post, he was previously part of our private beta program and unfortunately due to a number of issues regarding the types of 'bugs' he raised and how he raised them, he was removed from this part of testing. Although we appreciated his feedback over the course of the beta process, we felt he continued to raise the same feedback over and over despite us responding either stating the issue was logged or that in some instances, they were natural football occurrences. 

Eventually we decided because of this, that he should be removed so we could have a fresh approach and go in a different direction. Due to the fact we felt a lot of the raised feedback unfortunately wasn't relevant or helpful, our team has to be decisive in making sure to engage with the type of posts that are the most relevant and have the best chance of helping us improve the game. 

The match engine will always be a huge balancing act and we know it can be incredibly frustrating when you see something you don't feel is realistic. We have a small but extremely passionate team who work in this area trying to make it the very best they can. Whilst we appreciate feedback in regards to how we can improve, we're less enamoured with users who place unrealistic demands on us and our team, throw insults and show undue levels of disrespect.

Hopefully together we can look to continue to improve both the game we all just want to enjoy, and the community spirit which is cultivated throughout these forums. 

Thanks.

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Guest El Payaso

I think I have to write one message more after all to answer to Mr Brock. 

All my 'bug' (like your team apparently still want claim them to be) reports were posted within the guidelines given and I was only posting more examples on those threads that I was told to provide more examples and those ones that were ignored. There were lots of gaps between comments and reviews which possibly lead me to upload more examples than was needed. Lack of communicating you know.  Also all of these 'bugs' were things that would never happen in real football like I already told so I wouldn't explain any of those as things that happen within the footballing universe.  

There also almost seemed to be the tradition that the ones that were more 'substantial' ones did get answered as they could be disagreed on while the more obvious ones such as how strikers were defended against (and examples of my strikers recording more than 100 pass attempts per game) or my attacking wing back escaping to put in a free cross 5-10 times a game etc. were always ignored and basically never reviewed. 

I'm not saying that the more obvious ones were easy one click fixes but at least there should have been some conversating within those and at least a statement that "you're right and we will try to improve this in the future". You know, the thing that used to happen before FM 2017 beta testing. 

My aim never was to 'demand' thing to be toe to toe with real football but to instead get rid of illogical scenarios within the highlights and to introduce more football-like behavior and by that make the highlights look quite a bit different between for example versions FM 2017 to FM 2020. That would have made also a good impression to the customers as they would actually be seeing those changes within the engine even when using something like key or extended highlights. Apparently we didn't share that aim as some illogical scenarios (such as throw-in defending and that unmarked player at the edge of the penalty area in corner kicks) keep getting dragged from version to version. Also still I would claim that especially  with AI vs AI the goals that the ME produces are 70-80% illogical and in my opinion should never happen in the game. But like said, different aims are different aims.

The whole thing with the beta testing was a logical step as with some members within the testing team we never saw eye to eye on basically anything. This even though I got lot of support through private messages from other beta testers and also had a really good mutual understanding with former members of the SI team such as Adam Mignay. I guess that something changed in terms of my vision on detail or football knowledge when some of the staff within SI changed as suddenly I started to be wrong on everything and most of my threads even were so bad that they never were even worth a look. 

Probably that is the case also with FM 2018 and for example multi-striker formations are performing realistically and big teams are not performing unrealistically poorly. 

Anyway I think that both you and me @Neil Brockagree that it's good riddance for me. SI will not be missing my contribution and I will be more than happy to move on from being ignored and treated badly. 

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After reading through all of the feedback within this thread, it becomes very clear how passionate everyone is about FM and we really do appreciate that level of commitment within the studio. We all share a love for the game, whether it be El Payaso, Neil Brock, DP, KUBI or I, we all contribute to the game in our different ways and its development.

In terms of customer service, I agree with Brock's points above, we do wish we had the resources to enter communication and answer every thread, however the amount of posts and the amount of resources we have, we cannot possibly answer them all. It is a goal that we do strive to achieve. However, it is important to understand how much SI does embrace their community and I can't say the same for every other game in the industry.

One thing some of you will not know, is that with my role I was able to be part of the FM Cup last year, this was such a fantastic experience, mixing with fans of the game. I took my time to speak to every contestant, supporter, fan of the game and answered lots of questions, but overall asked them for feedback, especially for the Match, which is very important to hear straight feedback that maybe slightly different from those who contribute to the forums. El Payaso gave us some great feedback at times and still does, and we have many great contributors that try to offer something different and not the norm. Some of the feedback we may agree with at times, some of it maybe issues we want to resolve however it is part of the future plans, and sometimes we don't agree with a certain point because Football is a very subjective game.

There is a lot of criticism of the ME on the forums, there always is. I read one particular Steam Review today that stated "Can't beat Elite Teams" and then gave a bad review as a result. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and in football everyone has one. So for every seasoned FM pro, there is another person that finds it hard to play and win, FM is a simulation for everyone. It is easy to point flaws, but sometimes you need to see beyond that and see, what does the ME do well, what aspects does it simulate real life football, as for a body of work the ME certainly has many strengths as well.

Overall, my point is we do want to make changes and improvements to the ME and the overall game and that takes time. I really hope that you are all enjoying FM18 or whatever edition of the series that you are currently playing on and I hope you will continue to enjoy the game and support the studio in the future, and like Neil says, cultivate that community spirit.

Cheers,

Nic

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1 hour ago, Neil Brock said:

The match engine will always be a huge balancing act and we know it can be incredibly frustrating when you see something you don't feel is realistic. We have a small but extremely passionate team who work in this area trying to make it the very best they can.

Maybe is that the problem? ME Team has to be bigger with new fresh ideas?¿ Just saying.

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I am on the outside here though have read the thread.  Neil, I really don’t feel it is appropriate to state the OP was removed from a SI program and the reasons for it.

On a personal level, I stopped sending in PKMs years ago, simply because the same bugs continue to exist year on year.

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40 minutes ago, DazRTaylor said:

I am on the outside here though have read the thread.  Neil, I really don’t feel it is appropriate to state the OP was removed from a SI program and the reasons for it.

On a personal level, I stopped sending in PKMs years ago, simply because the same bugs continue to exist year on year.

Payaso asked why he wasn't getting answers. Neil answered that question. 

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9 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

Some time ago I've realized this game isn't what I look for anymore. The main reason being the lack of any tactics improvements and general (lack of) main concepts of modern football in the game.


I feel that way about Bioware games, have been for years and years. They don't offer me anything anymore. I stopped bothering about them. Obviously they sell much more games than with their old ones, so that's that. There is another section of a player base that just comes back over and over, and this I don't understand. On occasion, they don't try the demo/release, but just check what's cookin', target the criticism and enter their tuppence of "told ya so". This isn't purely connected to FM. Additionally, a great many good points are oft deeply undermined by hyperbole, polemics and exaggeration too.  This all neither encourages a healthy platform to discuss, nor does it encourage anybody much to reply. If you had been arguing a game hadn't looked the part in 09, has never been much to began with, was perhaps a bit better by the sixth edition and from then went downhill fast to the point that you feel half of the stuff isn't legit, there's no much point or hope is there. At that point it can't be just preference or a collection of bugs. There must be a deeply disconnect in how a developer sees things and how you do so. The priorities must be fundamentally different too. I am under no illusion that what Bioware target isn't me in any kind of way. And I have some concerns over the long-term direction of FM myself.

I think these boards in general were more informative and insightful ten years ago, but this can be attributed to both sides of the communication channel. Outside of designated community/social media managers dealing with stuff, it's rare to have any interaction anyway, anywhere. In particular not with anybody directly involved with the design side of things -- as it used to be around here back then. I am thankful to the likes of Ov though back then taking the time to replying to some of my threads, as it also used to gain a good insight into how the development/coding worked, and where the game may be headed. Whether I like that direction or not, and chose to be a part of it or not. It's naturally hard to tell whether stuff is actually being acknowledged these days, as back then, with good discussions, the lads would add a sentence or two. However, I don't think anybody is oblieged to reply. Actually useful bug reports are another matter naturally. Here too, there can be a disconnect  between what's bug and what isn't -- within the context of the game's world anyway -- and that doesn't only apply to the injury reports every year (in particular those of the "too many" kind, cough).

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7 hours ago, Edinton said:

Highlighting your post because of the words I've highlighted, but - playing devil's advocate - a general question for this thread... How do you know your ideas/suggestions/reports are being ignored? Is it simply because it's not officially responded to by SI? 

Is it actually possible for them to reply to every request, suggestion and bug report? I would argue probably not...especially as a lot of the time the 'bug' isn't a bug but a quirk of the ME or a quirk of football that you are just unhappy happened to you.

 

English is not my Mother laguange,so I failed on expressing myself.

i said there is time that SI doesn't seen to look at interesting discussions and good ideas that are showed to them,maybe they could give a like so we know they were aware?

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16 hours ago, El Payaso said:

This is going to be a rant so don't read it if you feel like it. This will also probably be my final message to this community and I was thinking for a long time if I want to publish it or not.

The thing that I want to talk in here is not the game itself as with more than 100 hours recorded once again it was once again well worth the 45€ I spent on it. Most of them have been as I've been buying every one of them since FM 2007 and spent so many hours and years within the series. But I think now my time as SI client is done and I will explain the reasons now.

I have told during the past year how I feel that I have been totally ignored as match engine bugs reporter for more than a year and what I am telling is the truth. During FM 2018 process I reported on about ten different threads of which one was reviewed by the dev-team and even that for a reason that wasn't the actual thing I was reporting on. I even tried asking through a private message about week ago. Never got an answer and when checking three days later if the message was already read by one of the devs I could see that he read it 5 minutes after I sent it. When I look at my attachments that I have uploaded I can also see that majority of them have never been downloaded by anyone which tells me that they are not checking them at all.

I have been buying the game for more than ten years now and I have made all my reports according to the guidelines and in a constructive manner. I doubt that I am a person that deserves this kind of treatment that already started when I was a beta tester (for years before now chopped off).

The ignoring is not limited just on bug reporting. This year I also placed two questions in the "ask SI anything"- thread. One was about the aims in terms of AI and difficulty level within the game and other about a new mod for players who would like to have more challenging FM experience. These two questions were important to me because they basically determine if I want to keep buying the game as I don't enjoy the game that much anymore as my careers always follow same paths and they always last just for couple of seasons. These questions were valid and written in respective matter but once again the team kept answering for other users but mine got no attention.

I'm not only sad or offended for my behalf as it might be that all my content is just so bad that there isn't a point even check it. But by fact there are many others in this forum who produce quality and detailed reports for the SI and try to help in terms of developing the game and still get ignored. And at the same time some ranting Chinese does get his answers...

There have been even cases of clear misguiding the users by the development team as they have been telling users to upload the examples to the bugs forum so they can review them and eventually those threads have only ended up being unanswered.

In terms of the ME there seems to be a clear denial on many issues nowadays: last year the wingers' buggy defensive positioning was not directly admitted to be a problem even though everybody in this forum could see what was happening and the same goes this year with for example shooting quality. Everybody watching the highlights can clearly see that there is an issue but this is explained by "shots with weaker foot" and stats that we are not able to see anywhere ourselves. While on the other hand the same rules don't seem to apply on crossing as players are regularly able to cross just fine with the weaker foot and from full speed.

Last year I was reporting on lack of bad first touches in the lower league as I felt that my team in the Conference was playing way too delightful football without any technical limitations to be seen. This was answered something like this "even players in the local park can control the ball perfectly under pressure". This is a bit conflicting to me as now you cannot expect a decent shooting quality from top class professionals even though the players in the local park can control the ball perfectly. And I see heavy touches at the top level regularly...

I wouldn't mind a bit of ignoring but more than one year is more than enough for me and for me it's time to move on from this community and from the game. And even if I will buy the game in the future I will make sure that SI will not see a penny of my money if I do. 

I wanted to write this because I think that a public criticism is well deserved from my behalf and from others. I hope that more people will make their opinion clear instead of just silently accepting bad service. I wouldn't take this bad customer service from my telephone company so why should I accept it from them? This company provides easily the worst customer service experience that I have faced during my whole life. You could even call this as cyber bullying but I wouldn't go that far. 

From a former fan of SI and the FM series. nex

I had much longer and more detailed message written on my now dead laptop but I think that this will give you an idea of how I feel like. 

I agree. as a huge fan of the series since 01-02, bought every year's version since and enjoyed thousands of hours playing. this year I just gave up. almost a month now without playing FM and every time I'm starting a season I just quit after the first game. Next year - I won't put my money into it. not before I'll make sure the ME is way better and a lot of the bugs addressed . I do appreciate every work the SI team had put into it, but in my opinion the resources are not focused on the burning issues. The ME, which is the most important thing in the game took a big decline IMO.

 

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1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Payaso asked why he wasn't getting answers. Neil answered that question. 

Still no excuse to ignore reports.  When someone comments on the Official Feedback thread, they are told to upload PKMs etc.  He did and got nothing. The fact he used to be in a beta testing program I simply not relevant.

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3 minutes ago, DazRTaylor said:

Still no excuse to ignore reports.  When someone comments on the Official Feedback thread, they are told to upload PKMs etc.  He did and got nothing. The fact he used to be in a beta testing program I simply not relevant.

It actually is relevant as to why, as Neil pointed out. Given that it forms the basis for his reasons, I'm not sure why Neil should be denied right of reply 

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1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

It actually is relevant as to why, as Neil pointed out. Given that it forms the basis for his reasons, I'm not sure why Neil should be denied right of reply 

Ok then.  😂

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4 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

Even now if you look on the match engine bugs forum you'll find whilst not every single issue is responded to, our match team do a very strong job of making sure raised issues are addressed and entered into our bugs database. Even at a point months after the game was released - which is also of great credit to our community, that users are still raising issues at this stage. 

I have to admit this bit made me smile. Talk about putting a positive spin on the fact that users are still finding problems months after release :)

Overall I don't find FM18 too bad but then I don't analyse it to the point of exhaustion. It's a game not a job.

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9 hours ago, FatRonaldo said:

If the ME animation cannot offer it, how is that a manager game? if the animation isn't accurate how i suppose to analyze?

i.e. A player wins the ball, and suddenly he stops running toward the ball and the opposition player just runs at him and steals the ball.

Now, i saw many people here saying it's an animation issue which make sense, how as a user i suppose to analyze such issues in football terms?

Just to add, if you're not very good at analysing the tactical issues, then the stuff being said by the AM, or in 18 the Analyst side-screen during the match is downright backwards. We're still getting 'we are winning lots of headers, lets cross more', which can't take into context that it may be defensive headers getting won here, not necessarily the everyday long ball to the diminutive striker up top.

I know on here nearly everyone says to ignore the 'assman' because he's an ass. Has been that way for... well a very long time. That's not right, it should have been fixed or removed by now.

 

But I also mentioned in a different topic that you can recognise AI trigger points in the animation that seriously detracts from the experience and makes things gamey. Corners are an easy example of this, watch one get cleared in the general area of the corner taker. The ME has decided a counter attack will happen, so for no reason at all, the corner taker, who is the best player to reach and cut out the ball, will stand still or jog slowly back until an identified player from the opposition team can be made to bum-rush the ball and set off the counter. That can be infuriating to watch. 

Other little scenarios from corners do my wick in sometimes, like a player picking up the clearance and going wide, only to shimmy the ball and eventually lose it under pressure because for whatever reason he absolutely cannot pass it backwards or to the goalkeeper, it is a severe limitation at times - this one doesn't happen all the time, but it is noticeable enough to make me wonder if the player is being an idiot or if it is an oversight on the match engine. 

 

That's about as far as I'd whine though, I'm more picky about the interactions than the match engine, mostly cos I'm clueless on the tactical side even today. :p In my opinion though, the change and rectification happens too slowly, I'm not asking for features to be perfect out of the gate, but there are some really basic things that should be done better. For example, FM18's medical changes was, in my view, the perfect time to be bringing in sports scientists and their roles etc, *not* FM17 where they were just cut-out staff with no key attribute, and basically stood out like a poorly thought out feature that got shoe'd in. New features are nice, quality control is better though.

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7 hours ago, Altair said:

Maybe is that the problem? ME Team has to be bigger with new fresh ideas?¿ Just saying.

And who will pay for a bigger team? I don't doubt that if they had the ability, funds, etc, to increase this side of the development team, they would, but you have to remember that FM is a niche game that, at best, sells a million to 1.5 million copies a year - compared to most video games, that really isn't all that much.

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8 hours ago, DazRTaylor said:

I am on the outside here though have read the thread.  Neil, I really don’t feel it is appropriate to state the OP was removed from a SI program and the reasons for it.

It's El Payaso that brought that up himself, not Neil, in the very opening post, to be fair.

 

22 hours ago, El Payaso said:

I doubt that I am a person that deserves this kind of treatment that already started when I was a beta tester (for years before now chopped off).

 

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1 hour ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

And who will pay for a bigger team? I don't doubt that if they had the ability, funds, etc, to increase this side of the development team, they would...

Just out of interest, I'd be curious to know if there'd be any issues (legal or licensing) that'd prevent SI giving users more ability to make tweaks to the match engine themselves? Every year, a lot of the ME issues seem only come to light post-beta when there are thousands of people simulating hundreds of thousands of matches - far more than any company's internal team or even volunteer beta testers could ever cover.

Theres a large, willing community who are happy to spend hours pushing the limits of the engine through their tactics, but, (even with SI's actually-pretty-decent transparency and feedback) theres a bit of disconnect between logging an issue and seeing the effects of the fix in-game. Maybe it gets fixed in the next update, maybe it gets added to the list for next year's game, maybe you never hear anything about it again. Thats no criticism of the the developers, theres simply too many user issues to filter through, test and then fix. 

I wouldn't expect the game to suddenly become open-source, but one of the best things about the FM series is how SI have given users the ability to 'fill in the gaps' (eg. unlicensed leagues) with the editor, or edit nearly all in-game graphics and skins. Letting the community do this with their biggest source of frustration - the match engine, might help diffuse a lot of player's frustrations, and hopefully create a better game.

Anyway, sorry for the diversion, just curious if this is something that could ever happen.

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8 hours ago, Triffid said:

 Talk about putting a positive spin on the fact that users are still finding problems months after release :)

There will always be things to report. 

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1 hour ago, andyglynnisunwell said:

Just out of interest, I'd be curious to know if there'd be any issues (legal or licensing) that'd prevent SI giving users more ability to make tweaks to the match engine themselves? Every year, a lot of the ME issues seem only come to light post-beta when there are thousands of people simulating hundreds of thousands of matches - far more than any company's internal team or even volunteer beta testers could ever cover.

Theres a large, willing community who are happy to spend hours pushing the limits of the engine through their tactics, but, (even with SI's actually-pretty-decent transparency and feedback) theres a bit of disconnect between logging an issue and seeing the effects of the fix in-game. Maybe it gets fixed in the next update, maybe it gets added to the list for next year's game, maybe you never hear anything about it again. Thats no criticism of the the developers, theres simply too many user issues to filter through, test and then fix. 

I wouldn't expect the game to suddenly become open-source, but one of the best things about the FM series is how SI have given users the ability to 'fill in the gaps' (eg. unlicensed leagues) with the editor, or edit nearly all in-game graphics and skins. Letting the community do this with their biggest source of frustration - the match engine, might help diffuse a lot of player's frustrations, and hopefully create a better game.

Anyway, sorry for the diversion, just curious if this is something that could ever happen.

Because it certainly doesn't benefit SI. Having everyone doing their own thing in their own modified engine would just cause chaos. It's far more organised making and recording changes to ME version, testing, looking at statistics produced etc before making another change, doing the same again etc etc etc.

It's not that something is logged but then not fixed. Fixing something doesn't just mean someone has to push one button. A slight change in one thing could cause knock-on effects elsewhere. All this needs to be tested, then either the knock-ons fixed or find another way of fixing the original problem.

Remember, this is an ME that simulates every second of a 90 minute match and it has to still produce realistic scores and stats (shots, passes, woodwork hits, corners etc etc etc) across a lot of leagues, each with their own RL averages too.

 

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The more touches a player has the less likely he has to score.

From an acute angel the keeper saves the shot.

Corners and free kicks are always headed away.

Loaning players out results in the player not improving.

Players offered out result in offers 1/5 of their value.

Just a few of the problems with fm15. Things haven't changed for fm18.

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hace 4 horas, JordanMillward_1 dijo:

And who will pay for a bigger team? I don't doubt that if they had the ability, funds, etc, to increase this side of the development team, they would, but you have to remember that FM is a niche game that, at best, sells a million to 1.5 million copies a year - compared to most video games, that really isn't all that much.

The game is more expensive every year for only some minor features. With that you can pay it i think.

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5 hours ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

And who will pay for a bigger team? I don't doubt that if they had the ability, funds, etc, to increase this side of the development team, they would, but you have to remember that FM is a niche game that, at best, sells a million to 1.5 million copies a year - compared to most video games, that really isn't all that much.

1 million sales at £20 a copy is £20m

I know that’s a simplistic way to look at it, but 1 million sold is a lot of copies of a game. 

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6 hours ago, Urotsukidoji said:

The more touches a player has the less likely he has to score.

Bit like football in this case, either way.

 

 

13 hours ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

But I also mentioned in a different topic that you can recognise AI trigger points in the animation that seriously detracts from the experience and makes things gamey. Corners are an easy example of this, watch one get cleared in the general area of the corner taker. The ME has decided a counter attack will happen, so for no reason at all, the corner taker, who is the best player to reach and cut out the ball, will stand still or jog slowly back until an identified player from the opposition team can be made to bum-rush the ball and set off the counter. That can be infuriating to watch.

Not how this works by the way. Until something happens, the ME has no "knowledge" it happens. It's the perception that works that way that can be an issue (sometimes a biased one, like "I know what's going to happen next -- and then it happens, as there can be a bug repeating -- and then it's a confirmation bias every time that bug repeats: I just KNEW it!). Where I got that from, former input from the coders, plus reporting some stuff on prior releeases myself in the bug sections. Not that it matters much at the topic at hand. But in General Discussion such myth and perception spreads quickly. Something is picked up somewhere, and then treated as the truth. The difficulty oft is pinning the root cause of such quirks happening then, which oft isn't something immediately around the ball, but something further away or something that has happened way before a good few seconds earlier. It kind of goes like this then. In GD, somebody starts posting: "Far too many goals scored." Somebody then chimes in, agreed. Then the reasons are being mulled over. Oft over multiple pages of discussion. Defending must be broken. Keepers are useless. The more often it's repeated, the more truth it rings.

What it is, is oft something else altogether -- like an overhaul as to defensive shapes that, depending on the formation and pick in role/duty , may cause the defending to collapse. Similar myth that permeate to this are that defenders would stop running as the ME had "decided" a "goal would be scored." That the forward would terribly miss to keep the scoreline in check and so on. Those are actually more harmful, as they get players into a mind that everything would be useless anyhow, and that there would be a determinism at play that isn't much. And I don't think THAT perception is ever going to go away until FM includes their own interpretations of Expected Goals models -- based on what they calculate under the hood // how they model scoring chances. Similar to pundits and fans in real football, scoring chances tend to be  overrated as to FM too -- same as the impact of players on their actually conversion. However, if this was based on the calculations, it may give a few too much stuff away. Plus, if treated as gospel, it could lead to frustration/myth all itself. Just because a chance has a roughly scoring probability of 1 in 3 (which is the typical rating Opta would assign to a one on one), doesn't mean a forward will score 1 within the next or any 3. The human brain is typically very bad in dealing with probability in general.

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1 hour ago, craiigman said:

1 million sales at £20 a copy is £20m

I know that’s a simplistic way to look at it, but 1 million sold is a lot of copies of a game. 

That's nice of the current team to be working for free then.

You're right, it is an incredibly simplistic way of looking at it.  It's also not all about money.  Anyone with any degree of common sense and knowledge of coding would know that just firing more people at a problem rarely fixes it.  In fact, it could well make it worse.  That and the complexity of the system means you likely need to either pay for someone who has the knowledge to get in there and hit the ground running (financially intensive) or have to bring someone in and get them up to speed (time intensive).  

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When long-standing issues (or bugs, if you will) are still present in FM18 just like they were in FM12 or FM14), despite several attempts at fixing or mitigating them, I think that's a good indicator of something being deeply wrong with the ME or with some of the in-game modules.

IMO the most frustrating part of the story is that SI still insist on pushing the "we're working on them, but it's a very delicate balance" explaination, while I think it's pretty clear that problems that have been in the game for almost a decade already are so deeply rooted into the original code they can't possibly be solved without rewriting huge portions of the game from scratch.
Be it the wide play situation, the wayward shooting, the awful closing down/defending (which was there even before the 3D ME) or the tactical quirks, it's stuff that probably stems from something that went wrong a long time ago but that, probably, was deemed as adequate for the time being, or it was the honest best they'd aim for within the technical limitations of, say, 2010...

I know it's pointless talking again about business plans and release policies, but how long can the franchise realistically last if in 2019 we're still battling with CBs freezing in place like it happened in FM08 with the dot animation?
The game will still sell just fine because of "FM addicts" and casuals (who won't even notice the problems, as long as they can win the Quintuple every season), but I'm afraid that's not the right direction.

A back-to-the-basics approach could do wonders. What's the point of adding a fancy car stereo, golden hubcaps, neon lights and all sort of cosmetic gizmos to a rusting car whose engine is almost shot? Sure, it'll still look cool for a while, but once you drive it for longer than 10 miles, you'll start to notice all its flaws.

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They'll already be working on the next big rewrite of the ME (in fact, hasn't it already been said more officially that they are?).  Every iteration eventually heads towards the end of its life, at which point they hope that the next one - that they'll have been working on for years - will be ready to slot in.  While that continues to get worked on, the "delicate balance" explanation is absolutely correct.  I can only imagine the outcry if they decided to throw caution to the wind and "fix" these issues, then everything else breaks.  Unfortunately, the optimum (but not exactly desirable) solution is to have these "lesser" bugs in to save creating bigger ones.

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16 hours ago, masno said:

English is not my Mother laguange,so I failed on expressing myself.

i said there is time that SI doesn't seen to look at interesting discussions and good ideas that are showed to them,maybe they could give a like so we know they were aware?

Perhaps you're the only person that thinks they are good ideas?

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