Defensive and Very fluid? FM17

[allyc31]

Ive a question on sitting deep and staying compact. 

 

I’m in my second season with Everton and finally have some pace on the wings and up top (still littered wit amc’s though). 

Id like to play a defensive/counter 4411 focusing on remaining stubborn and compact at the back with two banks of four then using the wide ares to break with pace. 

Ive two questions on this

1. I’d like my two lines to stay quite close together to either force the opposition wide or into taking a long shot. As far as I know, the shape that does this the most is very fluid. But having a very fluid defensive system just seems off somehow. Is that a fair assessment or is very fluid defensive football a thing?

2. I know how I want to score one type of goal but can’t think what I would like to do if the counter isn’t on. Keeping the ball deep to allow the opposition to come on to me in an effort to force the counter seems best but I’m not sure how to do this. Anytime I try and do defensive football I’m pressed into hoofing the ball long. Does anyone have any tips on playing keep ball near your own area to open up space for wingers/forward to exploit?

thanks

ally

[Atarin]

There's a long boring technical answer but in simple terms if you're going to play on a lower Mentality then I would suggest that you go for a lower Shape as well. The reason is that to exploit the space created by a low block you're going to want your Attacking Duties to be on the front foot, ready to break otherwise you'll find it very difficult to get out and you'll end up camped in and under pressure.

[allyc31]

Yeah, I suppose that makes sense. I’m really not that good at this game (been trying to get better for a long time) so no point in making things more complicated or difficult for myself

 

 

[Kcinnay]

It can be done, though. I almost always play with a defensive or counter mentality, a very deep defensive line and a very fluid shape. Very fluid, to make my team more compact and to make the players double up in pressing. Thinking of vintage Atlético, who defend like a swarm of wasps. Mostly in a 4-4-2 (with strikers man marking the central midfielders), but sometimes in a 4-4-1-1 too. Finding space is mostly a matter of the right choice of roles and duties, so in my opinion, a low mentality with a 'high' team shape like very fluid is absolutely a thing. I concede very little, even with smaller teams.

[allyc31]

26 minutes ago, Kcinnay said:

It can be done, though. I almost always play with a defensive or counter mentality, a very deep defensive line and a very fluid shape. Very fluid, to make my team more compact and to make the players double up in pressing. Thinking of vintage Atlético, who defend like a swarm of wasps. Mostly in a 4-4-2 (with strikers man marking the central midfielders), but sometimes in a 4-4-1-1 too. Finding space is mostly a matter of the right choice of roles and duties, so in my opinion, a low mentality with a 'high' team shape like very fluid is absolutely a thing. I concede very little, even with smaller teams.

How frustrating did you find it? Lot of long balls to nowhere? I presume you didn’t score a lot of goals?

[Atarin]

55 minutes ago, Kcinnay said:

It can be done, though. I almost always play with a defensive or counter mentality, a very deep defensive line and a very fluid shape. Very fluid, to make my team more compact and to make the players double up in pressing. Thinking of vintage Atlético, who defend like a swarm of wasps. Mostly in a 4-4-2 (with strikers man marking the central midfielders), but sometimes in a 4-4-1-1 too. Finding space is mostly a matter of the right choice of roles and duties, so in my opinion, a low mentality with a 'high' team shape like very fluid is absolutely a thing. I concede very little, even with smaller teams.

You're not wrong. Almost any combination of Mentality and Shape can work with the right players and the right Roles and Duties.

As I said, there is a long and complicated answer which takes in the combined effects of all of the above plus TIs, PIs etc but ultimately if you want to play solid and compact but with fast wingers who you look to release as soon as they have the ball I would always opt for a lower Shape because it ensures that they have the highest individual Mentality possible. My formation and team Mentality will determine my shape off the ball but once we have it my team Shape will release my Attack Duties, like the OPs wingers, nice and early.

[Guest El Payaso]

44 minutes ago, allyc31 said:

How frustrating did you find it? Lot of long balls to nowhere? I presume you didn’t score a lot of goals?

I actually applied something really similar with Everton in FM 2016 having Barkley as SS(A) behind CF(S) Lukaku and I basically dominated all over the world after season one. If I remember right the system was something like this:

Counter

Very Fluid

4-4-1-1

GK(D)

FB(A)

BPD(D)

CD(D)

FB(A)

WM(A)

DLP(D)

BBM(S)

WM(A)

SS(A)

CF(S)

I played as narrow as possible with a high press and higher tempo with shorter passing and passing into the space. Hardly ever conceded and especially Lukaku was totally unstoppable and Barkley was also summing up 10-15 goals in the league. I'm not completely certain about the roles and duties but that must be close to what I was doing. It was supposed to mimic Atlético Madrid system and partially it did exactly that.

[Kcinnay]

56 minutes ago, allyc31 said:

How frustrating did you find it? Lot of long balls to nowhere? I presume you didn’t score a lot of goals?

Not frustrating. I actually like to play with a fast, direct playing style, I like it when we don't have a lot of possession, so I don't mind a long ball to nowhere - and I prefer a 1-0 to a 4-3.

That aside: what you presume is wrong. We actually score quite a lot and have some very good combinations. Again: that's a matter of mentality, roles and duties, not team shape.

[dan_bre_1988]

On 19/01/2018 at 17:40, allyc31 said:

Ive a question on sitting deep and staying compact. 

 

I’m in my second season with Everton and finally have some pace on the wings and up top (still littered wit amc’s though). 

Id like to play a defensive/counter 4411 focusing on remaining stubborn and compact at the back with two banks of four then using the wide ares to break with pace. 

Ive two questions on this

1. I’d like my two lines to stay quite close together to either force the opposition wide or into taking a long shot. As far as I know, the shape that does this the most is very fluid. But having a very fluid defensive system just seems off somehow. Is that a fair assessment or is very fluid defensive football a thing?

2. I know how I want to score one type of goal but can’t think what I would like to do if the counter isn’t on. Keeping the ball deep to allow the opposition to come on to me in an effort to force the counter seems best but I’m not sure how to do this. Anytime I try and do defensive football I’m pressed into hoofing the ball long. Does anyone have any tips on playing keep ball near your own area to open up space for wingers/forward to exploit?

thanks

ally

As stated above, you can play on any mentality and shape. Just some systems place a greater emphasis on roles and duties than others.

@Rashidi has a great YouTube video (bustthenet) explaining team shape.

As you suggest, very fluid will make your players appear more compact as individual mentalities are closer together which means the team will attack and defend as a unit.

More structured on the other hand will make your players seem further apart as more defensive players will have a low individual mentality and more attacking a higher mentality.

For the way you want to play, I'd suggest a more structured shape as you want wingers further up the pitch so they can exploit space in behind. With a more fluid shape, your wingers will get dragged back with the opp full/wing backs and will be harder for them to exploit the space.

I wouldn't use any TIs or PIs to begin with. That way you can see what the issues are and react with these instructions. If you're wanting to attack through quick wingers, you may end up needing one or more of the TIs pass into space, exploit left/right flank and/or more direct passing. Hope this helps.

[Rashidi]

On 1/20/2018 at 01:40, allyc31 said:

Ive a question on sitting deep and staying compact. 

 

I’m in my second season with Everton and finally have some pace on the wings and up top (still littered wit amc’s though). 

Id like to play a defensive/counter 4411 focusing on remaining stubborn and compact at the back with two banks of four then using the wide ares to break with pace. 

Ive two questions on this

1. I’d like my two lines to stay quite close together to either force the opposition wide or into taking a long shot. As far as I know, the shape that does this the most is very fluid. But having a very fluid defensive system just seems off somehow. Is that a fair assessment or is very fluid defensive football a thing?

2. I know how I want to score one type of goal but can’t think what I would like to do if the counter isn’t on. Keeping the ball deep to allow the opposition to come on to me in an effort to force the counter seems best but I’m not sure how to do this. Anytime I try and do defensive football I’m pressed into hoofing the ball long. Does anyone have any tips on playing keep ball near your own area to open up space for wingers/forward to exploit?

thanks

ally

A game changers episode is coming out next week which features me using Everton. The highlights of the game are very short, but essentially the user wanted to use a 442 and wanted to incorporate some elements from Guardiola's Bayern sides but still have some counter attacking flair. I actually played two matches after modifying his 442, and explained why his initial setup didn't work, then I play two games, in fact the second game, unfortunately has limited highlights, but the gist of it is this:

I wanted to play counter/fluid against united at the start, which essentially ended up being a bad move since they are so good around the box. We allowed them so deep into our half that we hardly had anything left in attack. I changed to Standard flexible and we came back from 3-1 down to beat them 4-3.  Understanding how Shape affects your team's play and how this relates to duties is essential. Unfortunately, the AI isn't as good as we are at adapting like that. When I played very fluid, we were too compact, even on fluid, there was hardly any thrust for our counters. When we changed shape, things changed big time. This might be for FM18, but the principles haven't changed that much to apply it to FM17

[Atarin]

8 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

A game changers episode is coming out next week which features me using Everton. The highlights of the game are very short, but essentially the user wanted to use a 442 and wanted to incorporate some elements from Guardiola's Bayern sides but still have some counter attacking flair. I actually played two matches after modifying his 442, and explained why his initial setup didn't work, then I play two games, in fact the second game, unfortunately has limited highlights, but the gist of it is this:

I wanted to play counter/fluid against united at the start, which essentially ended up being a bad move since they are so good around the box. We allowed them so deep into our half that we hardly had anything left in attack. I changed to Standard flexible and we came back from 3-1 down to beat them 4-3.  Understanding how Shape affects your team's play and how this relates to duties is essential. Unfortunately, the AI isn't as good as we are at adapting like that. When I played very fluid, we were too compact, even on fluid, there was hardly any thrust for our counters. When we changed shape, things changed big time. This might be for FM18, but the principles haven't changed that much to apply it to FM17

My 4-4-2 is based around Standard/Flexible and yet its a quick transition style. Win the ball, get it forward and attack the space. Its definitely a misconception that to play on the counter you have to choose Defensive/Counter and either Structured or Fluid.

[phnompenhandy]

I have 3 variants of my fluid 4-3-1-2 formation - Attacking, Counter and Contain. Counter is my default tactic, so I'll switch to Contain/Very Fluid to close out a match. I wouldn't use it for te whole game - only when I don't need a goal. Having said that I often do turn a tight 2-1 into a 3-1 when the opposition throw everything at me and I nick a counter-attack.