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Long and mid range shots in the new ME. Let's talk about it.


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1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

The reason why I am not responding to this thread, is because I score the majority of my goals from inside the penalty area. I don't have long shots issues, I do score some blinders but I know that if I can get the ball out to my creative players they can do something like find the open person who can lay either a deadly ball through traffic or a great cross across the face of goal. I think there are more fundamental issues like the backs who follow their targets, which can be stopped with a role change. I just don't like the fact that I am forced into a specific role to stop a fullback from tracking someone across the penalty area. I can live with that, but as far as long shots are going and how people claim that this is an engine problem, imho its not.  

My tactics or rather super system, relies on 3 complementary systems that I use over the course of a season. I expect us to get a lot of goals from either crosses or from through balls, and our goals are mostly placed shots from inside the area. In the last 50 games we have scored 88 goals from inside the penalty area compared to 11 from outside the box. I can consistently produce systems that do not produce these long shot issues people are complaining about. 

 

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I can do it as well. Unfortunately in order to succeed I have to forbid any kind of long shots play and low my players attempts from outside area . (Which in kind of boring flanks play in my opinion { All the assists coming from flanks ,Not even 1 from the center } and that's just one strategy of play. Not everyone plays like this in RL). You showed us how much you score from inside the penalty area, which is fine because most of my goals are from inside the area. The question is how much do your players attempt shots outside area per game even tough they asked not to.

The other question is why from first place you trying to play the ball into the box? Because that's works better? 

I do shoot average of 20 shots a game and score at least 2 goals from inaide the area because that's the only way I can score often. High amount of the long shots are wasted oppertunity.

And what about defence? Are you concede goals from outside the area often (out of how many chances? )? Are you trying to close down player from shooting? It's threatening you? Your opponents trying to score from outside area a lot or trying to work ball into box as well? 

 

 

 

 

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Your point was there are too many long shots in the game, my point is that you can get your players not to take long shots provided your tactic is well thought out. Just because I have no assists through the middle doesn't mean that I am forced into this style. Its just a style I chose specifically for the players at my disposal.

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vor 1 Minute schrieb Rashidi:

Your point was there are too many long shots in the game, my point is that you can get your players not to take long shots provided your tactic is well thought out. Just because I have no assists through the middle doesn't mean that I am forced into this style. Its just a style I chose specifically for the players at my disposal.

I have mentioned it 2 Days ago ... My Problem isn't anymore how many long shots are happening . It is more where those long shots are going to .. Corner Flag is the answer ... for many of them . World Class Players shooting the ball from inside the box towards corner flag. And i am not even talking about first time shots . Those are annyoing moments in the game .. 

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Played a game yesterday, Juventus vs Sassuolo. I'm playing as Juve and after 90 minutes of football the stats showed I had 38 shots, 16 on target, hit the woodwork 6 times, had 5 ccc and won the game 1-0. This is just one example how my games look. I see huge ammount of chances missed from point blank range via headers, players missing one on ones all the time, hitting woodwork few times per game...I have a feeling I have to create 10 chances to score one goal. Unbeliavably frustrating ME. I played vs Inter away and got a red card in 8th minute. Ended up losing the game 2-0 from two shots on target while I created 3 one on one chances with a man down and missed all of them of course. :rolleyes: 

Most of my shots are long shots and I think I saw maybe one or two goals scored outside the box the whole season, just perfect. And yes, I specifically forbid every player to shoot from distance. But what can I do when my winger recieve the pass 60 yards from goal and decide that the best thing to do is just blast one towards goal..

Edited by luka_zg
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3 minutes ago, luka_ said:

Played a game yesterday, Juventus vs Sassuolo. I'm playing as Juve and after 90 minutes of football the stats showed I had 38 shots, 16 on target, hit the woodwork 6 times, had 5 ccc and won the game 1-0. This is just one example how my games look. I see huge ammount of chances missed from point blank range via headers, players missing one on ones all the time, hitting woodwork few times per game...I have a feeling I have to create 10 chances to score one goal. Unbeliavably frustrating ME. I played vs Inter away and got a red card in 8th minute. Ended up losing the game 2-0 from two shots on target while I created 3 one on one chances with a man down and missed all of them of course. :rolleyes: 

Sounds like a team talk issue, your team is trying to hard to win the match and the over eagerness is resulting in lacking the clinical finishing.

 

Secondly the red card also suggest that the team is way over motivated.

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Guest El Payaso
3 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Your point was there are too many long shots in the game, my point is that you can get your players not to take long shots provided your tactic is well thought out. Just because I have no assists through the middle doesn't mean that I am forced into this style. Its just a style I chose specifically for the players at my disposal.

The AI doesn't seem to be able to do that. Or they would but the top class players don't seem to be composed enough to take those couple extra touches to be able to either someone else up or make the shooting chance easier for themselves. In my opinion there are lots of problems in this and the game needs balancing. 

Like for example my success with Swansea is non existent but I'm not having huge problems with shooting from long range. I think that with the chance presented my players should have made the goalkeepers work more and I should have scored 3-4 from distance from those chances. On the other hand I am never worried much about the AI attacking play as even teams like Liverpool etc. are totally harmless from the long distance, no matter how freely they take them. And also there is that issue with their composure as they are so willing to take first time shots instead of showing their quality. 

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Purely tactically, and that's universal to any release (regardless of current issues with shots!!!):

I'd argue that discouraging every single player from taking long shots is actually making it worse -- such was argued by a few mods in the past. I've never ever done this.  You basically are discouraging the player/s to consider/think twice if at all to take a shot even in a decent situation. Outside of possible knock-ons such as breaks/dispossessions occuring due to such, what that means that a couple touches/passes further down that move, a player may take that shot as he's forced to do it or has come under pressure. Basically, on occasion switching the decent opportunity for the worse one, which naturally also depends on how the opposition is playing. I know that this is oft done out of frustration, but this has never been argued to be of much benefit afaik. Often it's also done to simply aim for fantasies -- even Barcelona at their most tiki-taka have had a good deal of 30%+ of their attempts from range, whilst for most teams it's more like in the 40-50% range.

@luka_ You should upload the match, as so far I've rarely to ever seen a match on any FM where those 16 shots on target where actually created from open play, for a start. Headers under pressures in crowded boxes, mostly difficult. Even the better chances than this will be missed quite regularly. Basically, symptoms of this. Unfortunately so far, you'd need to go through every single shot to check how severe this is. Exemplified and highlighted a bit in the video of an older release here. The player (well known for venting such frustrations, up to the point that he was into "AI conspiracies" -- when AI needs improving if anything!) was arguing he should have scored a fist-ful, and whilst the game is lacking that kind of feedback, I respectfully disagree, naturally. Also contains the type of one on one in the second half that is a few more difficult imo for good reason. Motivational issues can compound to this, no less as players may additionally come frustrated after missing so many (that body language feedback isn't entirelly cosmetical). However, at such volumes on target and barely a goal, the majority typically didn't have that big a chance of being converted in the first place. At its worst, it might uncover an issue. The keeper reach in certain situations was afaik adjusted in the past.

Edited by Svenc
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@Rashidi, today I saw your video "Introduction to Supersystems". The tactic I use is very similar to the 4-2-3-1 you showed, roles and dutys, and instructions. The main difference is I play on fluid and usually I use a Segundo Volante, instead of BBM. My question is, you frequently use that tactic? And if yes, do you notice more long shots? Because if its tactic related, it should produce kind of similar plays. I know the players are different, but playing Benfica, I have very good players on those mildfield and attacking positions.

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9 hours ago, Rashidi said:

you can get your players not to take long shots provided your tactic is well thought out

I'm a patron and avid reader / viewer of your content Rashidi - I have managed to improve almost all aspects of my tactical approach and results, with the exception of players taking unnecessary long shots. The repeat offenders are inside forwards who pick the ball up in deep wide positions, cut inside as instructed, beat a few players then shoot wide with the power of a backpass. 

With the chaos they are causing, the team would be better served if he simply held it up, looked for the overlapping wingback utilising the space he has vacated, or just lay it off to a playmaker. In my experience this just doesn't happen.

I've experimented with different players / lower mentalities / shape / tempo. It's made no difference.

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Guest El Payaso

@rdbayly yes noticed this too. Many of crosses and switches to other flank are much harder hit than the actual shots and also with much higher precision. It's like watching bullets go when you look at those at times. Should be other way around in my opinion: shots having power while crosses and switches to other flanks should give time for the defenders to react and move.

 

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Changed from 4-2-3-1 to 4-3-3, just to test.. played standard and fluid, played wider. Won 3-0, results were never the problem, dominated the game. But look at shots..still the same. So if tactical related, and I'm not saying is not, after update I do it always wrong!

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7 hours ago, rdbayly said:

I have managed to improve almost all aspects of my tactical approach and results, with the exception of players taking unnecessary long shots. The repeat offenders are inside forwards who pick the ball up in deep wide positions, cut inside as instructed, beat a few players then shoot wide with the power of a backpass.

Did they have support wide? My IFs seem to do fine in bringing the ball out to the backs who are overlapping

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9 hours ago, shadster said:

@Rashidi, today I saw your video "Introduction to Supersystems". The tactic I use is very similar to the 4-2-3-1 you showed, roles and dutys, and instructions. The main difference is I play on fluid and usually I use a Segundo Volante, instead of BBM. My question is, you frequently use that tactic? And if yes, do you notice more long shots? Because if its tactic related, it should produce kind of similar plays. I know the players are different, but playing Benfica, I have very good players on those mildfield and attacking positions.

Nope I do have a few long shots but nothing like the majority of the game, the goals I score usually come from the wide attacking players feeding the ball to the overlapping wingback or a ball from deep that is played over the top of an onrushing attack

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Something a little different: In your current game worlds on full match sim detail, what do the purely numbers look like? The first Bundesliga sim since the patch up to December (153 matches played out, half the season over) is depressingly close to the real world numbers, at least in terms of the goals. Obviously those are going to fluctuate massively some on every run. I also don't think you will oft get to replicate City or PSG scoring 10+ goals out of the box until January in-game, except in the odd run as such (AI managed, not anyway). Do they do such every season either way? No. PSG's long shot goals / free kicks record for the last three seasons before was: 16/3, 14/3, 8/2 respectively -- after the fully seasons were over.

But as argued, understanding the inherent streakiness in any such is key to understanding any kind of scoring streak in football also. It's key to understanding any fluctuation in such stats too -- even without a change in tactics an personell, the numbers are going to fluctuate simply by chance. Let's imagine you'd code a very very simplistic football simulation. Let's call it Football Manager 0.05 (Alpha "But One Day it May Give You  A Run For Your Money, SI" Version). It's purely based on the number of shots each team takes, and each shot has a 10% of going in.  With the 10% naturally meant to represent the average shot conversion in football, which is about that (in football, on average, a goal is scored roughly every 9th to 10th shot). You'd get streaks such as X0000X0XX000000000000X000000XXXX easily (X=goal, 0=miss). Only over the long-term would that pan some out.

xVuniHB.jpg

Sources: understat.com for the football stuff -- team reports upon having requested them for anything else. Just curious. [Didn't know the real numbers where this "low" this year most of the part -- what I can guarantee is that if the vanishing spray for free kicks had been introduced this season, no doubt various German media outlets would attribute the lowly number of free kick goals to it directly, when realistically, it could as well be just a random fart into the wind]. What would be relevant for the topic of this thread was also on /off target data too though -- and how far off target the off-target shots actually are/can be... I don't think there's much dispute over some of the more, er, adventurous kind of shots on display in-game.

Edited by Svenc
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Guest El Payaso

Well there is always variation and for example Chelsea in last season scored around 20 from long range shots in all competitions which in percentages gets close to 20 in total. Also to note about shooting in general is the fact that lot of these goals are really powerful finishes from world class players and from situations that cannot be considered easy as the angles are often not ideal and there is more pressing. On FM the shooting quality in my opinion is much worse as players cannot make free shots from edge of the area look dangerous and players in general have to take the shots from really close range to threaten. Like said, most of the switches to other flank and crosses are harder hit than shots. Also it's been years for me that I have seen players scoring long rangers from actually long range like 25-30 yards out and this is a thing that happens in real life at times. Even little kids seem to have more power in their shot than world class players on FM.

Stuff like this is  almosttotally missing from the game: good shooting technique with power, midfielders' active movement forward to allow progressive passing options and creative long passes and by that a midfielder assisting and scoring regularly. And this was in bloody Finland where the highest level of football is mainly semi-professional. 

If we compare goals in general on FM: currently in my save Hazard has 11 in 10 in Premier league and I think 6-7 of those are caused by crosses. While in real life out of his 18 in last season 0 were from those. Shouldn't these be balanced too if for example long shots are nerfed to real life levels (well I would say that the shooting quality is considerably weaker on what I am seeing). If teams in Premier league really are scoring around 40% of their goals from crosses, then why wingers are not dominating the assists charts but instead CMs are?

So in my opinion what should be balanced is that quality of shooting should be increased quite a bit and on the other hand they should balance it so that for example these nonsense low crosses to far post wouldn't be happening regularly. Certainly wouldn't hurt if the goals scored had more variation like goals regularly from long range and from free kicks as that probably is what people want to see; if you have a good long shooter taking free long shots, then he should also be able to score from them and same with free kick takers. If you get more free shots from long range or more chances to score from free kicks then there also should be more goals from them IMO.

And if someone wants to argue about real life statistics compared to FM on this issue then look at other statistics such as passing amounts for midfielders and strikers; they are also way off and have been for a long time so why should this be 1 to 1 to real life? It should be more about what people like.

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3 hours ago, El Payaso said:

And if someone wants to argue about real life statistics compared to FM on this issue then look at other statistics such as passing amounts for midfielders and strikers; they are also way off and have been for a long time so why should this be 1 to 1 to real life? It should be more about what people like.

Yeah, completely off-topic though. I'm sure if FM would include more stats, the more stuff you're going to find where it's actually way off football. Even the stats it includes, such as the amount of tackles have been oft very much detached from football, as FM's defending oft depends much on them to happen due to limitations as how teams shift to block passing lanes, how there is a finite amount of actually "physical" defending due to players not actually being "physically" there, and so on.

If we go down that "what people wantn route". People actually don't like "realism" all that much. Which is why Need For Speed:Fat Time Awesome sells more than Race 07, Call Of Duty more than Armed Assault, Flight Simulation Games are almost extinct, and Candy Crush rules supreme. Which is a bit of a pity, but that's me.  The above was a honest and curious request -- also as to how big or low you can probably go in-game. I think the Bundesliga real-life figures are probably the lowest of any of the top leagues in Europe in particular, which seemed curious. In Ligue 1 for instance you have two sides scoring more than 10 goals from range (Lyon and PSG), and the shot conversion is also almost twice as high from range. Equally, there's actually 15 goals from free kicks scored at his point (at just 50 matches more); As I'm German, that's just what I checked.

Edited by Svenc
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3 ore fa, El Payaso ha scritto:

Stuff like this is  almosttotally missing from the game: good shooting technique with power, midfielders' active movement forward to allow progressive passing options and creative long passes and by that a midfielder assisting and scoring regularly. And this was in bloody Finland where the highest level of football is mainly semi-professional.

 

 
2

Poron voimalla!!!!

:D:D:D

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Guest El Payaso
9 hours ago, Federico said:

Poron voimalla!!!!

:D:D:D

Exceptional shooting technique from the boy, not one out of the bottle for sure. :) Coutinho is also a player to mention here: I think that 24 of his 52 goals in total for Liverpool were from long range and free kicks and easily more than 60% of the goals in total were difficult finishes. Players like Lampard, Gerrard, Yaya Toure and even Gylfi Sigurdsson are also names to mention in this. Wouldn't like them taking long shots freely against me but on FM you wouldn't have to worry about it. 

@Svenc Yep, for me the toe to toe realism is not the key but to have things making sense. And for me for example seeing Pogba score around 10 goals from long range if he is getting good chances makes lot more sense than seeing for example Hazard constantly scoring from crosses. One has the qualities and opportunities to do that stuff while the other one simply shouldn't happen. Balancing stuff should be the key and in terms of crosses/running with the ball they had in my opinion a great balance on those earlier builds.

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Just want to add one more thing to the discussion. As I said before, I used more than one tactic, and don't think roles and dutys I use are that wrong to produce so many long shots. I started to use more standard mentality to test if it would reduce long shots, but don't. So it can be my players, don't have the right atributtes. So I leave here the mental atributtes from players that started the last match and produced that kind of shots.

All the players from mildfield and attack have good composure, good decisions, good off ball, good vision, and good to acceptable teamwork. So I don't think atributtes cause this... So I'm out of options on what could cause that. I'm not here just to complain, but if it is not a issue, would like to understand why suddendly this happened,

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3 hours ago, Svenc said:

I think the Bundesliga real-life figures are probably the lowest of any of the top leagues in Europe in particular, which seemed curious. In Ligue 1 for instance you have two sides scoring more than 10 goals from range (Lyon and PSG), and the shot conversion is also almost twice as high from range. Equally, there's actually 15 goals from free kicks scored at his point (at just 50 matches more); As I'm German, that's just what I checked.

Perhaps this is down to the quality of keepers against the quality of shots? The Bundesliga is well known for having/making quality keepers, while I can't really think of many players who specialize in long shooting. And I'm not too sure of Ligue 1 keepers, but they do have quite a few good distance shooters.

Or perhaps it's due to the Bundesliga generally preferring more defensive/ counter-attacking playstyles in recent years, thereby making it hard to find space for long shots?

Edited by Cap'nRad
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7 hours ago, Cap'nRad said:

Perhaps this is down to the quality of keepers against the quality of shots? The Bundesliga is well known for having/making quality keepers, while I can't really think of many players who specialize in long shooting. And I'm not too sure of Ligue 1 keepers, but they do have quite a few good distance shooters.

Or perhaps it's due to the Bundesliga generally preferring more defensive/ counter-attacking playstyles in recent years, thereby making it hard to find space for long shots?


There's many factors at work, and a bit early. But in particular over such a short amount of time, it may be but a random blip, in particular after but the space of a few months. :) If you go into some seasons before, the numbers are up. In the DFK thread for instance, I had pointed out how everybody attributed the increase of direct free kick goals in the 2014 BL season to the introduction of vanishing spray. That's basically two players alone scoring more free kicks in the space of a few months than what you saw this season (Calhanoglu and Junuzovic -- both players who have barely scored a thing since). Generally, such stuff seems pretty much somewhat consistent more or less accross all somewhat competitive levels. I'd be curious as to how low you can actually go in-game though. Anybody had a season with zero direct free kicks scored, for instance? :D

Edited by Svenc
bit long and OT
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Iv'e comeback to my previous season in in FM17, where i'm playing Brentford in the PL. My players are world class, like city/barcelona/real these days.

xpaauw.jpg

As you can see, the direction of the shots are all near the target as expected from high class players and as happen in RL. No shots to advert signs / corner flag as well. Similar players in FM18 just can't shot like this, unfortunately. Something is not working well with long shots and mid range shots (!) In FM18.

Edited by Naor5563
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There is an open thread in bug's forum regarding long shots, please submit your pkms. I have just upload few. and my advice to SI - just run a season in La-Liga, Seria A or Premier league, You'll see.

meanwhile, that's the kind of shots I'm seeing too regularly [ In RL you could see those in the national League, and even that's not sure] :

 

Edited by Naor5563
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How can you say it's ignored when I can clearly see you're posting on page number 3?

The fact SI staff is not responding here doesn't mean they haven't read it and they haven't taken into account every comment about it.

 

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To actually highlight a few stuff, I encourage doing the opposite what many do. Rather than out of "frustration" discouraging every player from taking shots, doing the opposite. On prior releases I sometimes would have combined the "shoot on sight" TI into an attacking strategy, reserved for the desperate last 10 minutes of a match. The point where the clock is running out, and rather than no much shots at all, you may encourage the players to pepper the box. It's a game of chance, and it's supposed to be. But currently, I probably wouldn't hugely advice doing that myself, even with a midfield of "specialists". At the very least, it highlights and multiplies the occasional bad shot and makes the worse shots harder to miss. What may be a "minor" annoyance otherwise, at least if you don't focus on a few added danger on range, is then easier to see. That's also a suggestion made to the testers. I had a bit of fun and basically reshaped the City starting squad a bit, so that I had strike force consisting of Pjanic,  Yaya Toure, De Bruyne, Pione Sisto, Di Maria and Agüero. All players that outside of Agüero (14 / 18) have long shot and technique ratings of 16 and up respecitvely.

It's not quite the 20/20 editor experiment from a few iterations back. But when every other attack ends in a ranged effort as you're encouaring them to take shots when on, it's harder to miss the volumes of attempts that not merely fail to test the keeper, but go way off target. Basically, as suggested, if feasible, it may be worthwile for future editions to consider coding the game in a way that may allow for genuinelly "stress tests", "testing drills"; almost like training matches. That may include counter attacking scenarios playing out over and over, specific set piece stuff, long shot drills, 5 vs 2 scenarios, anything. Naturally in-match, stuff is going to be a tad more fluid. Plus, as there as any tweak produces knock-ons all over the pitch, coding specific "drills" may be of finite use too. But a few generalist stuff may be picked up more easily -- and early.

The game works fundamentally different in many aspects from beloved 6 years old iteratioins anyway. I think it's in part knock-ons off how player movement / turning is being modeled. In older iterations, players could basically turn and shoot in an instant, which allowed there to be fairly unrealistic ranged goal bonanzas fare more easily. The most apparent this is in the FM 18 shots where a forward simply immediately shoots it straight into the direction he's running into, even if he's not facing goal at all. With such shots, players don't even turn, they simply shoot before doing such.

Edited by Svenc
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8 hours ago, shadster said:

I'm very disapointed that this thread is so ignored. For years I come here, and I've learned a lot. And I always had good opinion on this foruns. I had help on tactics, I tried to contribute during betas, more on Portuguese specific stuff.. And this is a game I play since CM, and like to contribute to make it better, within my limitations. One thing I always read here is that constructive feedback is always apreciated. Well, I learned now, that this is true, with exception to some things, specially ME things. I can't say for sure that we have an issue here, but I think I posted some constructive things, like tactics, stats, player atributtes, and the feeling was always that this thread was being ignored on purpose. People could prove us wrong, and we would certantly learn from this, or we could had a good discussion.. This is my last post about this subject, and feel free to delete the post. But I had to write this, as I feel the "constructive feedback is always welcome" is not totally true.

We're 3 pages into this thread, so there were replies and there's discussion taking place, which is exactly what this place is for - General Discussion. If you want to leave feedback - there's a feedback thread too.

We've say this very often and I'm sure it's been mentioned a few times in this thread too - if there's an issue, please report it in the bugs forum. Let the SI testers look at the PKMs. That video example of @Naor5563 shows a very poor shot. Maybe once, yes, but if there's more than one example - that's going to be what SI needs.

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3 hours ago, Svenc said:

To actually highlight a few stuff, I encourage doing the opposite what many do. Rather than out of "frustration" discouraging every player from taking shots, doing the opposite. On prior releases I sometimes would have combined the "shoot on sight" TI into an attacking strategy, reserved for the desperate last 10 minutes of a match. The point where the clock is running out, and rather than no much shots at all, you may encourage the players to pepper the box. It's a game of chance, and it's supposed to be. But currently, I probably wouldn't hugely advice doing that myself, even with a midfield of "specialists". At the very least, it highlights and multiplies the occasional bad shot and makes the worse shots harder to miss. What may be a "minor" annoyance otherwise, at least if you don't focus on a few added danger on range, is then easier to see. That's also a suggestion made to the testers. I had a bit of fun and basically reshaped the City starting squad a bit, so that I had strike force consisting of Pjanic,  Yaya Toure, De Bruyne, Pione Sisto, Di Maria and Agüero. All players that outside of Agüero (14 / 18) have long shot and technique ratings of 16 and up respecitvely.

It's not quite the 20/20 editor experiment from a few iterations back. But when every other attack ends in a ranged effort as you're encouaring them to take shots when on, it's harder to miss the volumes of attempts that not merely fail to test the keeper, but go way off target. Basically, as suggested, if feasible, it may be worthwile for future editions to consider coding the game in a way that may allow for genuinelly "stress tests", "testing drills"; almost like training matches. That may include counter attacking scenarios playing out over and over, specific set piece stuff, long shot drills, 5 vs 2 scenarios, anything. Naturally in-match, stuff is going to be a tad more fluid. Plus, as there as any tweak produces knock-ons all over the pitch, coding specific "drills" may be of finite use too. But a few generalist stuff may be picked up more easily -- and early.

The game works fundamentally different in many aspects from beloved 6 years old iteratioins anyway. I think it's in part knock-ons off how player movement / turning is being modeled. In older iterations, players could basically turn and shoot in an instant, which allowed there to be fairly unrealistic ranged goal bonanzas fare more easily. The most apparent this is in the FM 18 shots where a forward simply immediately shoots it straight into the direction he's running into, even if he's not facing goal at all. With such shots, players don't even turn, they simply shoot before doing such.

Which makes me think of one interesting point, and this has me thinking....have you seen a wicked bender in the game? I haven't. When we try to curl one with the inside of our foot, we actually aim away from goal. So sometimes I treat these wild shots in the game as poorly executed attempts. I am not making excuses mind you, but thinking about whether this could be one reason. Within the physics engine that is part of the whole match engine code, perhaps we don't see this being animated well enough.  

Defensively I work on limiting the number of touches the opposition has within my own penalty area while increasing my own touches in opposition area, basically I work the ball very effectively inside the penalty area with a large number of cut backs and square passes inside the penalty area which increases the chance that I am going to score from quality attempts.

In the last 5 games alone we had 23 shots attempted from outside the penalty area, which is on average 4 a game which seems fine to me., and this includes matches against Barcelona and Monaco in the Champions league.  I don't actually restrict my players with PPMs or with instructions not to take long shots.  My set pieces are set up to drill attempts from outside the box when a chance presents itself.  

Personally, I work on dragging players around and working good chances for ourselves, and I can see a distinctive difference when I play with Ajax and when I play with Kingstonian. With Ajax we can drag teams around to our hearts delight, but with Kingstonian I actually don't care if we take long shots, any kind of shot at goal is a chance I am willing to take. And,  we have created a system with my LLM side to break quickly with 2 strikers who are usually working against a high line. So in one system we are patient in another its long ball football.

I do think that these wild attempts need to be animated a bit more effectively but I suspect there are reasons that they won't mess with it now. What people should do, is discuss why these could be happening in their game and if these are happening frequently, pkms should be added to threads in the bugs forum. While people think there may be a lack of response, the devs actually do read them.

 

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I haven't played FM 18 but this thing happens in FM17 as well . Players shooting from distance even though they have room to run into is the thing that most annoys me and it is happening in every FM. Especially strikers that receive the ball outside the box, they literally have a clear path on goal but no, lets shoot from outside and miss. World class strikers too, with high stats on speed and dribbling decide that its better to go for a blotter than actually go in the box and finish.  For example just look at the video above form Insigne. At 0;9 he literally just has to go forward and be 1 on 1 with the keeper. And for some stupid reason he decides to cut inside centrally and shoot from distance! This is not what real players look like in a real game.

Also crosses!!!! The low post crosses make me want to quit the game EVERY GOAL BOTH ME AND AI IS SCORED FROM LOW POST CROSS, SI is forcing me to play a single type of football in a game that is called football manager! 

Edited by FM1000
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vor 16 Stunden schrieb Naor5563:

There is an open thread in bug's forum regarding long shots, please submit your pkms. I have just upload few. and my advice to SI - just run a season in La-Liga, Seria A or Premier league, You'll see.

meanwhile, that's the kind of shots I'm seeing too regularly [ In RL you could see those in the national League, and even that's not sure] :

 

This is exactly what i see OFTEN ... Even Messi shoots like that .  He has space to dribble , but decides to take a shot and TADAAA hello corner flag . It's just wrong . When i read Page 3 , i see that everyone is talking about long shots in general . But thats not MY point (not only)....  I can agree with players having no passing options and shooting cuz of their poor decision making . But those shots should NOT go towards corner flag ... not even CLOSE . When a Player like Suarez, Messi  , Dybala and all the other world class players , shooting like that in the game from distance ... then good night . And about the Bug Forum and PKMs .. I will do that , but i lost hope cuz ive seen threads with this issue and there is no response from any of the SI guys . 

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3 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

We're 3 pages into this thread, so there were replies and there's discussion taking place, which is exactly what this place is for - General Discussion. If you want to leave feedback - there's a feedback thread too.

We've say this very often and I'm sure it's been mentioned a few times in this thread too - if there's an issue, please report it in the bugs forum. Let the SI testers look at the PKMs. That video example of @Naor5563 shows a very poor shot. Maybe once, yes, but if there's more than one example - that's going to be what SI needs.

I submitted pkm's. You said that I didn't leave examples. It's because I was carefully choosing matches where there's plenty of highlights of it.It only takes to see the highlights of those pkm's, they don't need to search for examples, I choose games where the highlights are full of them. And on first page, herne79 wrote some good stuff, poiting what can cause it. So, I went for the causes. First I posted my tactic, and then I saw the Rashidi video and found that he uses a very similar one, and nobody said that that tactic could be causing the long shots. I posted here some shot stats from some matches where cleary the amount of long shots can be verified. Then, I changed mentality, to a more conservative one. Nothing changed. Then, I tested a tactic that I saw on Rashidi video just to check if change tactic, roles and dutys would make difference. I posted here the results, as always dominated the game, won easily, but long shots issue still there, no reaction. So, once again, reading herne79 post, I went to check player atributes, and posted them here. Once again, no reaction. 

I think I posted some constructive stuff, both here and bugs section. If SI staff is looking at it, ok, sorry for this words. And I was not fair to all people, of course some people like Svenc and herne79, gave good contributions.

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36 minutes ago, shadster said:

I submitted pkm's. You said that I didn't leave examples. It's because I was carefully choosing matches where there's plenty of highlights of it.It only takes to see the highlights of those pkm's, they don't need to search for examples, I choose games where the highlights are full of them. And on first page, herne79 wrote some good stuff, poiting what can cause it. So, I went for the causes. First I posted my tactic, and then I saw the Rashidi video and found that he uses a very similar one, and nobody said that that tactic could be causing the long shots. I posted here some shot stats from some matches where cleary the amount of long shots can be verified. Then, I changed mentality, to a more conservative one. Nothing changed. Then, I tested a tactic that I saw on Rashidi video just to check if change tactic, roles and dutys would make difference. I posted here the results, as always dominated the game, won easily, but long shots issue still there, no reaction. So, once again, reading herne79 post, I went to check player atributes, and posted them here. Once again, no reaction. 

I think I posted some constructive stuff, both here and bugs section. If SI staff is looking at it, ok, sorry for this words. And I was not fair to all people, of course some people like Svenc and herne79, gave good contributions.

As long as issues you have are in the bugs forum, SI will look into it.

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4 hours ago, haffaz77 said:

This is exactly what i see OFTEN ... Even Messi shoots like that .  He has space to dribble , but decides to take a shot and TADAAA hello corner flag . It's just wrong . When i read Page 3 , i see that everyone is talking about long shots in general . But thats not MY point (not only)....  I can agree with players having no passing options and shooting cuz of their poor decision making . But those shots should NOT go towards corner flag ... not even CLOSE . When a Player like Suarez, Messi  , Dybala and all the other world class players , shooting like that in the game from distance ... then good night . And about the Bug Forum and PKMs .. I will do that , but i lost hope cuz ive seen threads with this issue and there is no response from any of the SI guys . 

This is what I alos talk about. This horrific shots from great players and their stupid decisions to shoot instead of just run in to the box and score easy 1-on-1.. And you can see this all the time.

also I've noticed quite a lot wieird results in CL knock out phases..results like 5-2,6-3,3-4,etc..very high scoring games are dominating which is a bit strange.

I had PSG smashing PSV 8-1 and 7-1 in two legged tie.. :D

I know PSG is awesome but still....

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1 hour ago, luka_ said:

I had PSG smashing PSV 8-1 and 7-1 in two legged tie.. :D

I know PSG is awesome but still....

PSG beat Celtic 5:0 and 7:1 in the CL this season, and I'd say Celtic and PSV are on a comparable level. 

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Before I make this post, I want to make it clear this is not a comment about what the AI does or doesn't get up to.  Nor is it about decidedly dodgy looking shots that go closer to the corner flag than the goal.  This is purely about the request right back in the opening post about generating tactical discussion and my other comments on the first page concerning a disconnect between the perception of what certain tactical settings supposedly do and what they actually do.

With that out of the way, there are comments throughout this thread about "crossing manager", how we're forced to play down the flanks, a lack of variety, too many shots and, of course, long range shots.  So I'd like to share something.

I'm playing a form of 4-4-2 which places my 2 "central midfielders" in the 2 DM positions.  I'm also using the Attacking mentality, so lots of direct high tempo football where players aren't given much time to dwell on the ball, and I'm using the Flexible Team Shape.  I don't use any tactical instructions such as Work Ball into Box, Shoot Less, Cross Less or similar.  The only instruction I've given the team which may impact on passing is Retain Possession.  (All Retain Possession does is reduce passing length and through balls).

I just beat Man City 5-0.  We had 19 shots in total, only 6 of which (excluding 2 direct free kicks) came from outside the box.  No goals were scored from set pieces, all open play.  We also attempted just 15 crosses (excluding 4 corners).  With such a high paced, attack minded system, how is that possible without using instructions such as work ball into box and so on?  Player movement, balanced roles & duties, available options and variety in attack.  These are images of the goals scored, all different:

1) My No. 18 makes a nice through ball to the running no. 19 who slots it past the keeper.

wYTOSxa.png

2) Luck involved here - my player on the right of picture takes a shot, it's blocked by a defender but ricochets to the circled player who volleys home.  Luck perhaps, but I have 5 players in the box (this is from open play).

OWpLHvs.png

3) My no. 19 puts in a short cross from near the 6 yard box for my running player to nod home at the far post.

GIHiS8T.png

4) Great square ball from my no. 20 across the face of goal for my striker to slot home (a nice 3v1 overload against their fullback too).

2hQN1ce.png

5) By all rights I'd expect my striker to take a shot here, but he passes right to my running no. 20 who scores.

DEZNYAb.png

 

The only thing I'm trying to demonstrate here is that it's possible to not have to play down the flanks and avoid long shots without having to resort to all kinds of fancy tactical settings.  Now it may not necessarily be possible to do this with any style of play and system and nor should it be - the whole point is to give us free choice in how we want to play.  But I think there is room for improvement in the game giving us feedback in terms of why things happen, because the "why" isn't always very obvious.

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@herne79, great post as usual. As I said to you, is always great to read you threads/posts.  My problem with this, is exactly that until the update, I felt like you, no need to force things, no need of TI to force the play into flanks, my game was well balanced, the best I played on FM. The day 18.2 came out, it changed, and my shot pattern became the one I posted on this thread. I looked for causes, still looking. I'm interested on findind causes, but can't find them. One possible contribution to this is the extreme defensive mentality my oponents play against me. I have little doubt that it is a factor. But again, don't think this pattern is normal, using multiple tactics and tactical settings. If anyone is interested in discuss, I can post again all roles, dutys, instructions, whatever.. because, I always said, it can be something me, and others like Naor5563 are missing.. 

Screenshot 2018-01-08 21.58.54.png

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3 hours ago, shadster said:

@herne79, great post as usual. As I said to you, is always great to read you threads/posts.  My problem with this, is exactly that until the update, I felt like you, no need to force things, no need of TI to force the play into flanks, my game was well balanced, the best I played on FM. The day 18.2 came out, it changed, and my shot pattern became the one I posted on this thread. I looked for causes, still looking. I'm interested on findind causes, but can't find them. One possible contribution to this is the extreme defensive mentality my oponents play against me. I have little doubt that it is a factor. But again, don't think this pattern is normal, using multiple tactics and tactical settings. If anyone is interested in discuss, I can post again all roles, dutys, instructions, whatever.. because, I always said, it can be something me, and others like Naor5563 are missing.. 

Screenshot 2018-01-08 21.58.54.png

If you're talking about that 4231 you posted on page one, two things jump out at me:

1) You're Benfica.  Just about everyone in that league will (I expect) be sitting deep, playing defensively and probably trying to hit you on the break and/or score from a set piece.

2) All of your front 5 are trying to dribble with the ball.  Your RPM is trying to bring the ball forward before passing; your winger is trying to dribble before crossing; your IF is trying to dribble through the packed defences before shooting or passing; your AP is trying to dribble into position before passing; your striker is trying to dribble before shooting.  You'd better have a lot of bloody good dribblers on your team.

But where's the off the ball movement?  With all these players dribbling into position, who do they pass to if they don't get tackled while dribbling?  Who's found a bit of space to run into?  Your AF is trying to push the defence back, but they're probably already too deep for that.  Who's running the channels?  Who's roaming to find pockets of space?  Have you tried using a support duty striker in an attempt to bring a defender or two with him, thus opening space behind for say someone moving in off the wing for your AP to slot a pass to?  So if they do dribble into position and nobody is free for a pass, what they do?  They shoot.

There's nothing inherently wrong with your set up.  You're following the basic principles which is great - I can see the thought process, it's not just random.  But if you consistently run into the same type of problem, adapt.  Try a support striker; try a Raumdeuter; try an AMC with an attack duty; try a Trequartista; try a CM(s); try adding a roam from position instruction to one or more players; try adding more through balls; if your AMC is ineffective try moving him back to the MC position; try a narrow 4231; try changing your winger to support and your IF to attack; try any combination of one or more of the above; substitute on a different type of player in the same position; try something else entirely.

The problem of course comes from trying these things out in a live situation.  You try too much, nothing seemingly works, before you know it you're sacked and you end up screwing up the save you've spent all that time and effort on.  Been there plenty of times, totally understand.  So stop playing your save (for now).  Create a copy of it, use that copy as an experiment - a throw away save you don't mind messing with.  Play some matches against these defensive teams, try different things out.  It's not an instant process, you'll have more failures than success (I did anyway), but stick with it, make note of what works (and what doesn't) and eventually the fog should start to lift.  Just remember that what may work against one team may not work against another, so always have a plan B.

I'll add though if you want to have a wider discussion about your own tactic, post it in the Tactics forum rather than trying to suss things out in this thread.

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17 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Which makes me think of one interesting point, and this has me thinking....have you seen a wicked bender in the game? I haven't. When we try to curl one with the inside of our foot, we actually aim away from goal. So sometimes I treat these wild shots in the game as poorly executed attempts. I am not making excuses mind you, but thinking about whether this could be one reason. Within the physics engine that is part of the whole match engine code, perhaps we don't see this being animated well enough.

Physics being another area that is being worked on, and which had been publicly said to influence this quite a bit... It's tough to compare to older releases. :) The oldest I have installed is FM 15. I'd suspect, anybody coming from there, they'd face quite a bit of a difference. As argued, even with a team full of specialists "encouraged" to simply hit it when on, it's not unusual that up to 80% of 20+ attempts won't even go on target. As the keeper more generally is expected to save such shots -- if they are too readily on, that can influence the perception of a supposedly "super keeper" again too though. The guy who was coded by SI to appear as an artificial "balancing mechanism" to save every attempt so that scorelines would remain realistic -- and which naturally, has never ever existed.

Whilst this is a heavily edited FM 15db, I don't think you'll get to replicate anything like this on FM 18 even with edits (and the individual match posted wasn't a "cherry pick", that was basically the first match -- shots "off target" left out). Naturally, the "realistic" balance probably lies somewhere in between... Point being, there's remarkably difference depending on the release, "work in progress" as they always say. As such, that oft isn't just a perception, that perception can indeed be reality. I'd still encourage a few "stress tests" on SI's behalf - like a side of "world class" specialsts encouraged to test a few of their skills to check if they'd be happy with that.

aCKeOVF.png

5rfteN1.jpg


Btw, what people who try to "copy" your systems may or may not take into account is not merely the player's attributes as such, but also PPMs. I find that in particular in top heavy systems, a few added "cut inside" PPms, even the wrong footedness, can completely clog the space in front of the box, leading to added long shots of the "forced" kind, as there may be no much other option /space on.

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Agreed I feel that people who blindly copy a system don’t always get it right. I have the same system used by Ajax and Kingstonian, but I need to account for the players and make slight changes to the system. And that explains why with Ajax I can get everyone involved including the keeper in a tiki taka dismantling of a top European side and with Kingstonian, the same system needs to be adjusted so that I draw teams in and hit them with 3 passes or less.

I spend an inordinate amount of time thinking of attributes when I consider tweaks to a system. The AI hasn’t reached a point where it’s continually assessing your system and adjusting.  I am. I look for weaknesses and I look for how it’s building play up before I send my disruptors in. And sometimes I see the AI make a small change.

Against City they had KDB on the left side of midfield so I stuck my hatchetman there. With things going my way the AI moved KDB to the other side of midfield, it was a simple change, but it could have spoilt my plans.

I know this is a discussion about long shots, but I have scored nearly 40% of my goals through assists INSIDE the penalty area.  That’s a hell of a lot of quality chances. I wished the AI would do that to me more too. 

BTW @Svenc I would avoid comparing this engine to 15 there are fundamental differences. 18 can only be compared to 17 and 16. I doubt you were doing that anyway.

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9 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Agreed I feel that people who blindly copy a system don’t always get it right. I have the same system used by Ajax and Kingstonian, but I need to account for the players and make slight changes to the system. And that explains why with Ajax I can get everyone involved including the keeper in a tiki taka dismantling of a top European side and with Kingstonian, the same system needs to be adjusted so that I draw teams in and hit them with 3 passes or less.

I spend an inordinate amount of time thinking of attributes when I consider tweaks to a system. The AI hasn’t reached a point where it’s continually assessing your system and adjusting.  I am. I look for weaknesses and I look for how it’s building play up before I send my disruptors in. And sometimes I see the AI make a small change.

Against City they had KDB on the left side of midfield so I stuck my hatchetman there. With things going my way the AI moved KDB to the other side of midfield, it was a simple change, but it could have spoilt my plans.

I know this is a discussion about long shots, but I have scored nearly 40% of my goals through assists INSIDE the penalty area.  That’s a hell of a lot of quality chances. I wished the AI would do that to me more too. 

In your screenshots above 37% of opposition goals were assisted inside penalty area...the AI is more or less doing that 

 

 

 

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On 1/8/2018 at 10:00, Rashidi said:

The reason why I am not responding to this thread, is because I score the majority of my goals from inside the penalty area. I don't have long shots issues, I do score some blinders but I know that if I can get the ball out to my creative players they can do something like find the open person who can lay either a deadly ball through traffic or a great cross across the face of goal. I think there are more fundamental issues like the backs who follow their targets, which can be stopped with a role change. I just don't like the fact that I am forced into a specific role to stop a fullback from tracking someone across the penalty area. I can live with that, but as far as long shots are going and how people claim that this is an engine problem, imho its not.  

My tactics or rather super system, relies on 3 complementary systems that I use over the course of a season. I expect us to get a lot of goals from either crosses or from through balls, and our goals are mostly placed shots from inside the area. In the last 50 games we have scored 88 goals from inside the penalty area compared to 11 from outside the box. I can consistently produce systems that do not produce these long shot issues people are complaining about. 

 

5a5340c3ce661_ScreenShot2018-01-08at5_58_10PM.thumb.png.3972c61db2d178a3bc27a82c8d81d818.png5a5340a46f7eb_ScreenShot2018-01-08at5_57_34PM.thumb.png.6147636ec2472dfc57aea43d2a4f1bf1.png

 

5a53403602629_ScreenShot2018-01-08at5_55_52PM.thumb.png.c251390fd9b290db9bb6f1fe883dbbad.png5a53417a26482_ScreenShot2018-01-08at6_01_06PM.thumb.png.d0a8ee664d376ab5633ee69005889ee3.png

 

Apart from me scoring a few more from crosses, my experience is the same as yours with a rather different formation

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13 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I think more in general disruption to my style of play.

still a lot of quality chances though I guess

 

Also in screenshots 70% of assists from out wide...are these goals coming from a team which dominates possession/most games and faces deep lying defences in general. What adjustments is the AI making to counter your play from out wide the way AI adjusts against teams playing centrally ie if user controlled team is dominant attempting to play through the middle the AI will generally play deep lying defence with low block and central midfield blocked off with deeper lying (often defensive mid) roles giving further defensive support to clog the middle...which makes sense. 

Assuming you're using width in your formation getting majority of assists from wide areas what is the AI doing to cope with this the way it blocks play through the middle ?

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3 hours ago, Rashidi said:

BTW @Svenc I would avoid comparing this engine to 15 there are fundamental differences. 18 can only be compared to 17 and 16. I doubt you were doing that anyway.

Yes, that's what we were hinting at with the physics and player movement talk/overhauls. That was just given as an example as from my experience there has been few areas where long-term the game has gone from one possibly "extreme" to "another" (to a degree, at least!) -- in particular with something as influential/fundamental as shots. If you can have a side full of "specialists" and still can see 80%+ of their attempts from two dozen going off target upon "encouraging" them to take them (shoot on sight, etc.), that may be worthwile to look at. Similar as doing a few attribute data experiments, and checking if the coders would be happy with what they see upon doing such. As Paul is probably his biggest critic and never pleased, he may try it to see.

The specifics may change, and may cause knock-ons. Players may not be able to insta-turn and shoot as in FM 2012 and previous, as they aren't allowed such superhuman abilities no more. Ball physics may be more realistic so that the ball may not "ping-poinging" into the goal as much as on FM 2008. D-line positioning and player engagement may be tweaked so that players won't appear in as much space upon taking shots. The stuff about curved balls you mentioned, and so on. At the end of all coding, all FM games have tried to simulate the same sports, still. As you argued, there are likely not going to be complete overhauls now to any area outside of adressing major bugbears for good reasons. Namely the code likely being like a plate of sticky spaghetti -- pull a few noodles here and suddenly you may end up with having the entire plate on your fork. :D

Out of interest, what's your overall shot conversion like (team report -> stats-> shots)? :) With ranged attempts, in particular the "forced" ones (which will always big time favor the keeper, usually) apparently taken out of the picture almost entirelly, that would be curious. In  football even Barcelona mostly have 30+% of their shots from range, and the average across the leagues is in the 40-50% range. Some of those you can't much prevent in FM, from my experience, even if you were obsessed about it. Direct free kicks naturally...  a lot of 2nd ball stuff from set pieces (with all the players marked into the box, and the ball falling to a guy at the edge of the box who then has finite options). If you go through attempts outside of the box in any match, and watch them back to back from the analysis screen (clicking the shot dots) -- a good deal of ranged attempts is always from such.

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3 hours ago, akkm said:

still a lot of quality chances though I guess

 

Also in screenshots 70% of assists from out wide...are these goals coming from a team which dominates possession/most games and faces deep lying defences in general. What adjustments is the AI making to counter your play from out wide the way AI adjusts against teams playing centrally ie if user controlled team is dominant attempting to play through the middle the AI will generally play deep lying defence with low block and central midfield blocked off with deeper lying (often defensive mid) roles giving further defensive support to clog the middle...which makes sense. 

Assuming you're using width in your formation getting majority of assists from wide areas what is the AI doing to cope with this the way it blocks play through the middle ?

As far as my experience goes, the AI just seems to work off a template of predetermined actions based on time, score or an event. There is an underlying expectation that the AI has for a result. And it sets out accordingly. So the strategies can wary. In a game against Man City, I saw the AI do something I would consider intelligent, and that was to move the playmaker away from my BWM, luck or design? Not sure. 

In other games and depending on the tactical acumen of the manager, which is something that we can expect in the game, some matches are a lot more easier. I do tactical changes and the AI doesn't adapt to them. It may make sub changes but tactically it does not avoid my disruptors. In other matches I find that sometimes the AI changes mentality or shape, and then makes some duty changes to hold a lead for example. I have seen small changes, but adapting to my style of play. No I have not seen it specifically go out and change a formation because I am specifically targeting a weak fullback. I just played a game against AC Milan, they took the lead inside the first half by going down one side of my pitch. I noticed that its style of play was actually disrupting how I was building up play, so I flip flopped my system, essentially going down the other way . We equalised and won the match 2-1. I don't see the AI doing this as an effective strategy, and I don't think we should see every AI manager do this. There are a lot of managers out there who never change their systems, apart from making role changes, and there are some who treat game like a chess game of war, they orchestrate tactical movement from the sidelines. There has to be enough variety in the engine to make me feel that way. 

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First of all, thanks @herne79, I will try what you suggested. Then, I just want to say that by all means, I never tried to "hijack" the thread, at least not my intention. Only wrote here to try to contribute to the discussion, but if someone felt that way, I'm sorry. And the last thing, some years ago I used to copy tactics, no shame on telling that. But now, I don't do it, for me the fun of game is exactly the tactics aspect. But I tried Rashidi's 4-3-3 for few games, just to test, not to use it as my daily tactic.

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5 minutes ago, shadster said:

I never tried to "hijack" the thread

lol hadn't thought about hijacking :).  I just figured it may help get you more input and ideas from a wider variety of people if you start a thread in the Tactics forum rather than hoping someone notices your posts hidden deep in this one :thup:.

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3 hours ago, haffaz77 said:

@herne79 What would you say about this tactic ? It's the "valverde" tactic i've created for barca ...

I worked a lot on it , and i still got long shot issues. Less , but still annoying somehow . I kill every team with it .. but that might just be cuz im barcelona ?! 

 

Valverde_4-4-2.fmf

I'd say start a new thread over in the Tactics forum, post some screen shots and an idea of the issues you are seeing.

Happy to discuss general principles here, but for specific advice on your system you'll get more ideas and input if you start a new thread in the Tactics forum :thup:.

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