Why WOULDN'T you use "move into channels"?

[Mitja]

This is my third thread I believe where I might be doing that. In whole FM 19 cycle. I have watched his videos and there's no difference to what I see on mine, only I watch my games a bit more than him.

I'm confused. Some can give completely wrong information and others are not allowed to say what everyone already knows? Only reason why I posted in this thread is because he claimed movement is "broken" for some because they're using wrong roles which include MIC. 

I really don't want to argue here anymore and wish you all very happy FM illusion. 

[noikeee]

There have been plenty of threads in here in which I thought people were way way too quick to defend the ME's shortcomings by rationalizing them away and blaming tactical choices, but I don't think this is one of them.

What do you suggest @Mitja, that it should be an optimal strategy in FM to give move into channels to every single attacking player? This is clearly not right because:

a) forget football tactics for a second and think about this as any strategy game. If it was best to give it to everyone, why even have it as an option in game anyway? It'd be a boring useless click you have to turn it on at all times.

b) just thinking about it tactically in theoretical terms, it clearly isn't right to do it. The channel as FM defines it, is the area between CB and FB. Call it that, call it channel, call it half-space, whatever. It clearly is a hugely important area in modern day football, but have you ever seen the entire attack of any modern day team, wandering around to hold hands with each other in 2 vertical lines, one between the RCB and RB and the other between LCB and LB? No because that kills your passing triangles, someone else needs to be wider to provide width, and someone else needs to be central to capitalize on the space the people that are moving to channels are creating.

If you place everyone in the channels that's gonna be really rather easy to defend against. Moreover in FM we now have more options to decide how we want to defend, and the AI uses it too, which makes things harder. If the opposition ticks "defend narrower", you'll have no more space in the channels anymore.

Maybe you could say that in modern football most attacks are somewhat fluid with everyone occupying the channel at some stage, but unfortunately in FM the options are a bit more explicit/rigid, and if you tick the instruction that's the prime movement a player will do, the prime area he'll occupy, not just one of the areas he moves to if it's free. If you want players to fluidly decide where to move to on their own, use "roam from position" but then you'll need very clever players to do that effectively (in theory).

Now, that's all not to say there aren't problems with the game as per the 19.2 patch. There most definitely are!

1 - as Rashidi etc are saying, there's too many roles with moves into channels locked-in by default. This makes it harder to balance who not to give it to, because you might want some of the behaviours that comes with some roles but not the PI.

2 - I kind of tend to agree with you that striker movement in 19.2 is a bit bad. Strikers on support duties don't drop deep anywhere near enough, and they're therefore glossed over in buildup/linkup play. This makes it very hard to develop a system based on fluid movement, and frankly the 19.2 ME is not a very enjoyable experience for me. Hopefully 19.3 will fix that. But that has nothing to do with whether theoretically it is a good idea to use move into channels for every single player or not.

[Rashidi]

2 hours ago, Mitja said:

That's all you can come up with? Anybody who watched FM match or two on full knows how it works. I was surprised and confused by what you wrote above as it makes no sense.

Anyway, it's always same with you guys. Taking text out of context, accusing people they have no clue what they're saying, insulting. I could understand if the game was yours or if you got paid for defending the game. 

Those farrows you alluded to from the good ol days? They were not MIC instructions but forward runs.

Anyway enough said, if you think there is a better way propose it.

[Mitja]

13 minutes ago, noikeee said:

What do you suggest @Mitja, that it should be an optimal strategy in FM to give move into channels to every single attacking player? 

I didn't suggest anything like that, I mentioned specific situation and formation where it is appropriate for logical reasons. MIC has nothing to do with lack of quality movement in this me, that's why I reacted to the post. 

[noikeee]

12 minutos atrás, Mitja disse:

I didn't suggest anything like that, I mentioned specific situation and formation where it is appropriate for logical reasons. MIC has nothing to do with lack of quality movement in this me, that's why I reacted to the post. 

Wait a minute. I've just read back and this is what was actually said and what started this rant.

Rashidi - it doesn't make sense in a 4-4-2 diamond for both AMC and the 2 strikers, (that is, all 3 of them), to move into channels.

You - No! In a 4-4-2 diamond at least 2 players need to move into channels!

Which... means you guys are actually agreeing? For example a formation in which the 2 strikers both move wide into the channels and the AMC capitalizes on the space by staying central, is well balanced, and fits both of your ideas.

So well done, this massive rant back and forth was all based on a misunderstanding.

[Mitja]

On 11/02/2019 at 15:53, Rashidi said:

 If you are one of those who is using it liberally then you are probably one of those who is struggling to break down packed defenses

@noikeee

No I reacted because he kept posting nonsense like the above. 

[Rashidi]

1 hour ago, Mitja said:

MIC has nothing to do with lack of quality movement in this me

It has everything to do with the match engine, look I am tired of this back and forth argument, some of the roles esp two of them were not performing well because of the specific use of MIC hardcoded, its a fact that was verified by the devs.  If you want to make assertions that this and that are broken, etc etc, I will throw nonsense your way too.

[Gegenklaus]

59 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

It has everything to do with the match engine, look I am tired of this back and forth argument, some of the roles esp two of them were not performing well because of the specific use of MIC hardcoded, its a fact that was verified by the devs.  If you want to make assertions that this and that are broken, etc etc, I will throw nonsense your way too.

What two roles are you thinking about?

[Experienced Defender]

I play with a lone AMC behind 2 strikers in my Southampton save, albeit not 442 diamond but a (bit odd) variant of 352. My usual (preferred) setup of the front 3 is:

- STCL (Charlie Austin) - poacher - PI move into channels

- STCR (Danny Ings) - PF on support - PI stay wider

- AMC (Armstrong) - AMC support or attack, depending on the situation - PIs roam from position (and get further forward when on support); sometimes shoot more often as well

Works pretty nicely for me and I haven't noticed any issues with players' movement so far.

5 hours ago, Mitja said:

Anybody who watched FM match or two on full knows how it works

I watch almost all my matches in full 

[djsmiley]

On ‎23‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 16:07, kpsia518 said:

 

i think i want to ask this way ,when & why.But in this kind of case its always when = why.

1) when or why should (or should not) we use move into channels ? When your player has superior Mental attributes like Anticipation, Off the ball. Why, because then you will be utilizing his superior attributes to full effect. 

2) when or why should (or should not) we use Roam from position ? As in the above if your players are good in Mental attributes for movement then you will want them to roam cause they can read the game properly.

3) Crosses - whipped,floated,low,when or why ? A player needs Mental attributes to DO anything in a soccer match then after he has decided to Do then he might needs to get there quickly, when he's actually there does he have the strength to fight for the ball (Physical Attributes). Lastly the technical attributes to finish the job.

I hope it makes sense. 

 

 

 

[Rashidi]

So to help people understand this, basically in football we have two channels the horizontal and the vertical. Move into Channels isn't perfect in FM cos the game really deals mostly with the vertical aspect.  The channels are essentially the space between the fullback and the nearest defender. Where you are playing against a 343 or a 352, it will be the space between the wide mid and the closest central defender. The goal here when using MIC is for the attacking player to occupy the attention of the central defender so that he is drawn AWAY from the centre. This effectively works to open up space, but it is only effective if:

a: The player with MIC has got good first touch, off the ball, anticipation. Depending on the role, and what you want him to do, the requirements can get more demanding.  In a 4231, the Raumdeuter and the WTM are the two roles that can be told to specifically target the channels from wider AM slots. These are more common for the AMC slot and the forward slots where more roles have the option.
b. Players in deeper areas may need to support the MIC player because if he is on his own, he can also be isolated if he is not good enough. For example, a WTM on attack duty could become isolated if he has players who will run off him to take advantage of the ball.
c. In central attacking patterns the MIC instruction if used inefficiently could see every player in an attacking trident attack the channel. An example in a 4312, the DLF and the AF is a popular option but both players have MIC, if you opted to added a Trequartista as an AMC then you would have 3 roles who are going to run away from the centre of the box. Likewise in a 442 when someone opts to use a DLF/AF combo upfront with a DLP/BBM/Winger/Winger combo in midfield. Here the issue is midfield as there is no one there who would be attacking the vacant space created by the MIC-running of the DLF/AF.

In an ideal world you would want to set up the attack of these channels specifically against a formation. The 4231 really emerged as a formation once the 442 started dropping the 8 into midfield to act as a deeper holding creative player. These gave the MC more time to string out passes. Some teams started deploying a 442 diamond to counter this, and eventually systems morphed into fluid 433's like the one Barca used when they had Busquets playing. Here the goal in these systems is to get players to move fluidly within the horizontal channels in an attempt to control areas of the pitch more effectively. Currently the big drawback in FM is the lack of horizontal movement in the channels. MIC is not perfect and SI know this, hence their admission of the issue with attacking movement. Eventually I hope to see better movement of  players like diagonal running to attacking blind through balls. Here you would be playing a through ball into space where there is apparently no player until you see someone running  diagonally onto a through ball. This kind of movement is getting better, but there is scope for improvement

You can have a trio of player and even midfielders with MIC on them, what we need to remember is giving players this instruction, encourages them to move away from goal. This is just part of the bigger piece in creating good movement. The other part is actually getting players to attack the space. Understanding how MIC works will allow people to effectively create overloads and attacking patterns that score great goal

 

THE VERTICAL CHANNELS

 

Players with MIC and how we would expect them to attack the channels.

I will try and provide an actual example, which is going to be part of an upcoming guide I am doing for movement in general, where I deal with all the attacking and midfield roles too. 

In the first image the ball is played out from our goalkeeper to our defender, we are playing against a 343 and we are using a 4312. I want to specifically target the left flank, where their defender has lower decision making and lower positioning as an attribute. We set our tactic up to play against a narrow 343. Here we want to attack the channel that exists between the MR and their closest central defender. In a 343 this can be a big channel.

Here our Mezzala moves into channels so I expect him to make a forward movement which will create an issue for the central defender and their MR, as a TM is also occupying the middle. The ball is played by our defender who likes to try long range passes and is a BPD. Our intended goal scorer/assist generator is meant to be the FB(A). The ball makes its way to the TM, the ball then gets knocked down for the APM in the next image. By now the Mezzala is already becoming a problem he is running away to the channel.

This is a double jeopardy move. The MR now has to worry about two targets the FB and the Mezzala, the central defender has to contend with the Mezzala and the TM, so either way their positioning, anticipation, and decision making is going to be tested. The Mezzala pulls the attention of the defender, leaving space for a perfect through ball. In real time, it took six seconds for the ball to move from our defender to the FB to score the goal.  And the FB scored two goals just like this in the game.

When choosing to use MIC, thinking about how the different roles can work together vs a specific formation you are playing against has huge payoffs. We are a championship side that is newly promoted playing against a premiership side. My 4312 was deliberately modified to play against their 343.  I hope this helped clarify any questions about MIC and if you want a more detailed explanation, its coming soon in the form of a video.

[themadsheep2001]

@Rashidi this immediately makes me think about a link between the number of issue around forwards and service, perceived or otherwise, and the number of CF roles with locked in MIC 

 

[Rashidi]

3 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

@Rashidi this immediately makes me think about a link between the number of issue around forwards and service, perceived or otherwise, and the number of CF roles with locked in MIC 

 

Exactly. If you look at the number of roles in that tier with MIC, you begin to understand why we made such a fuss about the F9. The thing here is that some roles are expected to work in a certain way when their team has the ball, but the player in question doesn't. So for example you would expect some roles to drop deeper, others to move forward, some to go wide, or even move into the channels. What we see typically is the hardcoded facet of the role working in one way and the MIC sometimes behaving less clearly. The MIC PI is supposed to be effective even when the team doesn't have the ball. In FM18 I used that very effectively with the Red Pharaoh system to get one specific player to score 60 goals in a season, all through moving players into these channels. FM19 sees some fundamental changes made to roles, and some of their PIs have been tweaked. Now we see the specific player who has the ball with MIC running into the channel, and we also need to pay attention to how a role performs. Some roles naturally operate in the half spaces this has the effect of drawing defenders away too, but others who are given MIC may not start their move early. It will all depend on where the ball is. 

If the ball is on one side of the flank, it affects those on that side, the ones further away from the ball, have less calculations behind made under the hood, so to some extent, they may got wide and take the half space. So if the ball is on the left, the AF on the right flank isn't going to go wider into the half space, simply cos he has the MIC, he will go towards the box because he needs to be closer to the box to receive a potential cross. I still feel strongly that MIC while it worked in one way in previous editions of FM, in FM19 its behaving differently as it  seems to have affected some of the roles differently in the final strata. I can understand why it was done, in FM18 I was abusing the hell out of it. The 3 striker fisherman systems were abusing it, now its not nearly as easy anymore, because some roles are now different under the hood and defensive shape was introduced. Is it working perfectly? no. Is it better than FM18, for defensive sides its happy days.

That is my personal opinion of course, and naturally there will be people who may disagree.

[dz47]

Thanks Rashidi, this is very helpful. A quick question/example, if I have say a 4231 with the ST and the  right sided wide forwards with MIC (either from their asigned role or PPM), should I expect to see them both target the same channel (ie the right channel) simultaneously, or is there a way to influence the ST to instead drift toward the left channel and therefore create the space for the right forward to target the right channel? (hope that makes sense).

[Rashidi]

3 hours ago, dz47 said:

Thanks Rashidi, this is very helpful. A quick question/example, if I have say a 4231 with the ST and the  right sided wide forwards with MIC (either from their asigned role or PPM), should I expect to see them both target the same channel (ie the right channel) simultaneously, or is there a way to influence the ST to instead drift toward the left channel and therefore create the space for the right forward to target the right channel? (hope that makes sense).

This is an article i guest wrote for @Cleon's blog. I plan to do an extensive look at movement in a few short articles as well as related videos. Eventually we will feature links here. Basically le the clarify your query. What you are asking about is whether multiple players with MIC will all either converge or split. This will depend on where the ball is during the transition and what roles are playing there. Some roles are hardcoded to play in the half spaces where the channels will be. The channels themselves are all fluid and change with formations. 

Now if you wanted to say create a split to some extent that is possible, but the effects of last season and the Red Sea effect from Scramjet and Diablo don't exist anymore. Fisherman to a lesser extent. That was the effect we would see in FM18 when AF's would move into the channels and with the Stay Wider instruction either start wide and drift in or without go wide. This would split defences up.

Roles work differently in FM19. There have been significant changes to how they operate. Sometimes when you want to do a split, and in order to avoid exploits, a player may attack the middle because you are in the attacking transition and someone has to be in the box.  Can two players converge into the same space. Yes. The AP and the Mezzala could end up converging and the Mez and the IF. This can happen in a a wide configuration of an attacking 3 behind a Mezzala-led midfield. You can check out more by referring to the start of the articles i am writing for Cleon's Blog

I hope that helped clarify the questions you asked.

[Experienced Defender]

44 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

You can check out more by referring to the start of the articles i am writing for Cleon's Blog

I've just read it through. A fantastic article, I wholeheartedly recommend it to all you guys 

[scwiffy]

On 23/12/2017 at 06:00, Cleon said:

Half spaces are different but the channel would still be the same area even if you face those shapes you mention. It's still the area between the centreback and the fullback, where they'd usually be in a 4 man set up. Just because you face a 3 centreback system or a sweeper one, doesn't change what the channel is in FM terms.

Also find it odd you call the channels mythical then want people to use an equally mythical term in half spaces 

Just so I fully understand the difference between the two. Half space is the space between wings and centre of the pitch (for want of a better explanation), but the channels are the spaces between central and wide defenders regardless of their shape/formation?

 

[Rashidi]

No, different people refer to them in different ways. Some refer to them interchangeably others use half space to describe the location physically independently of any players inside them. You can refer to the linked article for one such example.

When i describe my own tactic without referring to any other system, and speak about halfspaces, or anyone else does, they talk about movement into specific zones of play. (I did a half space video a while back). So a 4231 would use the half space on the pitch in a different way from a 4132 for example.

When either system plays against another system, then we are dealing with the channels. These are the dynamic spaces between players. Every system you play against will have a different kind of channel. A 343 could have a bigger channel created between the ML and the CD, if the ML was a Defensive Winger. And the channel would be different if you were playing against a 442. There the channel is formed between the FB and the closest CD. Channels are dynamic spaces that can change, they are merely the spaces between players.

[dz47]

Thanks Rashidi, I appreciate that explanation. Makes sense (though I haven't been playing since fm12 so I don't know anything about Redsea or scramjet etc).