Why WOULDN'T you use "move into channels"?

[MatchWinner]

Why wouldn't you use the move into channels option?  Surely you'd always want your attacking players to move into an available space in order to receive the ball.  But I'm guessing there must be some reason why you wouldn't just select this option for every single attack minded player?

[Keyzer Soze]

So do you think it's logical to have all front players attacking the same space?

[Haiku]

You might not want your classic winger cut inside, your inside forward to move wide and your pivotal target man going wide.

[SnUrF]

I had a 4141 with CM(A) who i wanted to go directly to goal. So no channels there.

 

-SnUrF

[MatchWinner]

1 minute ago, Keyzer Soze said:

So do you think it's logical to have all front players attacking the same space?

Well no, but surely they are all looking for the nearest space to themselves to make themselves a passing option for their team mate with the ball - not necessarily all in the exact same area of the pitch?

[Keyzer Soze]

The thing is,

Why do you want your player to move into channels? To drag the defenders out of position, right?

So, if everyone is doing that, who is taking advantage?

[kandersson]

9 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

The thing is,

Why do you want your player to move into channels? To drag the defenders out of position, right?

So, if everyone is doing that, who is taking advantage?

Imo in this case players should have the intelligence of reading and reacting to the game. A player like Aguero would often 'move into channels' irl but is also there to finish chances in central areas. Even a perceived 'pure poacher' like Icardi often 'moves into channels' to find space (I think he has the specific PPM in FM) but is clearly main option of his team to finish chances in the box. What I want to say is I understand OP's point and yes, I think in modern football most attackers do 'move into channels' regularly regardless of 'role', and are also ready to take advantage when fellow attackers (teammates) do the same.

[Keyzer Soze]

@kandersson,

I think you are making the assumpition that the PI's that the players have are followed 100% and they will do nothing more (or less).

Imo, i don't think that is what happens in the game.

When you have a player with the PI to move into channels (or other PI) this just means that he will do that more often. A inside forward with the cut inside with ball, will do others things, like run wide with the ball, move into channels, and so on... but mainly he will cut inside with the ball.

And then, like you said, you have the ppm's that will make the player have other behaviors.

So, we are talking about a general set of instructions that the player will follow more, but not in a blind way that he will do nothing else.

[kandersson]

1 minute ago, Keyzer Soze said:

@kandersson,

I think you are making the assumpition that the PI's that the players have are followed 100% and they will do nothing more (or less).

Imo, i don't think that is what happens in the game.

When you have a player with the PI to move into channels (or other PI) this just means that he will do that more often. A inside forward with the cut inside with ball, will do others things, like run wide with the ball, move into channels, and so on... but mainly he will cut inside with the ball.

And then, like you said, you have the ppm's that will make the player have other behaviors.

So, we are talking about a general set of instructions that the player will follow more, but not in a blind way that he will do nothing else.

I understand this, and actually I think it goes well with OP first question: why wouldn't you want all your attackers to have the 'option' of moving into channels? Because irl, they pretty much do (except for very rare target man type or in very specific situations).

[Keyzer Soze]

Just now, kandersson said:

I understand this, and actually I think it goes well with OP first question: why wouldn't you want all your attackers to have the 'option' of moving into channels? Because irl, they pretty much do (except for very rare target man type or in very specific situations).

Because, by default they already have that option.

When you select the "move into channels" option you are sayingo for them to do that more often, and to be honest i don't understand why do you want all the front players to do the same movement more often. What's the advantage here?

 

[MatchWinner]

22 minutes ago, Keyzer Soze said:

Because, by default they already have that option.

When you select the "move into channels" option you are sayingo for them to do that more often, and to be honest i don't understand why do you want all the front players to do the same movement more often. What's the advantage here?

 

So that they're even more likely to be free to receive a pass from a team mate?  And if you have 4 or 5 players all moving into channels, surely that's 4 or 5 players all making it easier for the player in possession to find them with a pass?  Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what this actually does.

[Cleon]

16 minutes ago, MatchWinner said:

So that they're even more likely to be free to receive a pass from a team mate?  And if you have 4 or 5 players all moving into channels, surely that's 4 or 5 players all making it easier for the player in possession to find them with a pass?  Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what this actually does.

So who scores the goals then when everyone is moving away from goal? If everyone of your front players moves into the channels, then who is central to put the ball into the net? Having 4 or 5 players in one tactic who all move into the channels is excessive and there is no need for that at all. There is no style of play that you can recreate on FM that would warrant that many people moving into the channels.

[MatchWinner]

2 minutes ago, Cleon said:

So who scores the goals then when everyone is moving away from goal? If everyone of your front players moves into the channels, then who is central to put the ball into the net? Having 4 or 5 players in one tactic who all move into the channels is excessive and there is no need for that at all. There is no style of play that you can recreate on FM that would warrant that many people moving into the channels.

Ah ok, I think this is where I have been going wrong.  From the in-game description I always assumed "move into channels" meant players would try and find space anywhere they could between opposition players, I didn't realise it specifically meant going wide to do so.

Thanks, I think I understand this a little better now.

[Cleon]

2 minutes ago, MatchWinner said:

Ah ok, I think this is where I have been going wrong.  From the in-game description I always assumed "move into channels" meant players would try and find space anywhere they could between opposition players, I didn't realise it specifically meant going wide to do so.

Thanks, I think I understand this a little better now.

The channel is the area between the fullback and central defender 

[MatchWinner]

1 minute ago, Cleon said:

The channel is the area between the fullback and central defender 

OK gotcha

[yonko]

4 minutes ago, MatchWinner said:

Ah ok, I think this is where I have been going wrong.  From the in-game description I always assumed "move into channels" meant players would try and find space anywhere they could between opposition players, I didn't realise it specifically meant going wide to do so.

Thanks, I think I understand this a little better now.

If you want players to try and find space anywhere, then you need to use Roam From Position or roles that have that instruction as default.

[MatchWinner]

1 minute ago, yonko said:

If you want players to try and find space anywhere, then you need to use Roam From Position or roles that have that instruction as default.

Ok, yeah that makes sense.  Thanks.

[summatsupeer]

Just want to clarify two things:

1. Off The Ball will always dictate how well the player can find space.
2. Instructions like Move Into Channels will tell a player where to try to find space, whilst Roam From Position will allow a player to move further away from his assigned position.   Same thing applies for Traits like Moves Into Channels, Drops Deep to Collect Ball, Gets Into Opposition Area etc.

[yonko]

1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

Just want to clarify two things:

1. Off The Ball will always dictate how well the player can find space.
2. Instructions like Move Into Channels will tell a player where to try to find space, whilst Roam From Position will allow a player to move further away from his assigned position.   Same thing applies for Traits like Moves Into Channels, Drops Deep to Collect Ball, Gets Into Opposition Area etc.

Not only Off The Ball attribute but also Decisions, Anticipation, Determination, Vision, Teamwork, Workrate, Acceleration.

[samuelawachie]

I still maintain that the mythical Channels isn't only the space between fullback and center back (what if I'm facing 3 center halves?) or a Sweeper formation?

I'd rather people just use the word half-spaces. That makes more sense.

[juusal]

1 hour ago, yonko said:

Not only Off The Ball attribute but also Decisions, Anticipation, Determination, Vision, Teamwork, Workrate, Acceleration.

Determination? Vision?

[juusal]

37 minutes ago, samuelawachie said:

I still maintain that the mythical Channels isn't only the space between fullback and center back (what if I'm facing 3 center halves?) or a Sweeper formation?

I'd rather people just use the word half-spaces. That makes more sense.

Half space has a different meaning though

[yonko]

5 hours ago, juusal said:

Determination? Vision?

You need vision to see the space and determination to take advantage of the opportunity. 

[Cleon]

6 hours ago, samuelawachie said:

I still maintain that the mythical Channels isn't only the space between fullback and center back (what if I'm facing 3 center halves?) or a Sweeper formation?

I'd rather people just use the word half-spaces. That makes more sense.

Half spaces are different but the channel would still be the same area even if you face those shapes you mention. It's still the area between the centreback and the fullback, where they'd usually be in a 4 man set up. Just because you face a 3 centreback system or a sweeper one, doesn't change what the channel is in FM terms.

Also find it odd you call the channels mythical then want people to use an equally mythical term in half spaces 

[Scoham]

3 hours ago, yonko said:

You need vision to see the space and determination to take advantage of the opportunity. 

Vision is about seeing passes, not players finding space for themselves.

[Cleon]

24 minutes ago, Scoham said:

Vision is about seeing passes, not players finding space for themselves.

It’s about seeing all available options, it’s not tied to just passing.

[summatsupeer]

10 hours ago, yonko said:

Not only Off The Ball attribute but also Decisions, Anticipation, Determination, Vision, Teamwork, Workrate, Acceleration.

I was pointing out how the instructions don't affect the players attributes which dictate how well they do things.

You've over complicated it, regardless of those attributes Off the Ball will be the primary factor.

Everything else is secondary and affects other things such as do they keep working hard all game, can they burst away from the opposition etc. But non of those attributes will make a player be able to find space when opposition players are near.  Obviously wider and deeper positions will naturally have more space, that's why those positions roles&duties differ on if it is a key attribute or not.

[summatsupeer]

25 minutes ago, Cleon said:

It’s about seeing all available options, it’s not tied to just passing.

Could you just clarify the "options" part please?  My interpretation is vision allows players to see the different actions available. Actions meaning finding space to get ball to feet, making a forward run, different passing targets, dribbling opportunity etc rather than "I see space over here, there and there" then deciding which area to find space in.

[Cleon]

33 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Could you just clarify the "options" part please?  My interpretation is vision allows players to see the different actions available. Actions meaning finding space to get ball to feet, making a forward run, different passing targets, dribbling opportunity etc rather than "I see space over here, there and there" then deciding which area to find space in.

Are we not saying the same thing? All available options is just another more accurate (imo) way of saying it because everything the player sees is not necessarily an action as such. The decision attribute decides what action the player takes. Vision is just the ability to 'see' what is available. The higher the vision the more options he should see available.

[kpsia518]

21 hours ago, MatchWinner said:

So that they're even more likely to be free to receive a pass from a team mate?  And if you have 4 or 5 players all moving into channels, surely that's 4 or 5 players all making it easier for the player in possession to find them with a pass?  Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what this actually does.

 

i think i want to ask this way ,when & why.But in this kind of case its always when = why.

1) when or why should (or should not) we use move into channels ?
2) when or why should (or should not) we use Roam from position ?
3) Crosses - whipped,floated,low,when or why ?

 

[juusal]

14 hours ago, yonko said:

You need vision to see the space and determination to take advantage of the opportunity. 

Okay vision was explained above, really weird that it works for everything else, off the ball actions included, as well. But for determination, what do you mean by "take advantage"? In what way? Players with little determination might not be motivated to do the run, like work rate, but I think (and hope, especially hope) that it's role in this case is very limited.

Btw if you have some more information on these please share it, I'm always very skeptical here, I usually believe only when I hear something is confirmed by the devs =) 

[Scoham]

11 hours ago, Cleon said:

It’s about seeing all available options, it’s not tied to just passing.

Then the research guidelines may need updating, see below from the end of last season (I resigned as a researcher since 2004 earlier this year, so they could have changed recently).

Same with moves into channels, based on those guidelines I understood it was a striker that moved out wide.

Moves Into Channels

A striker who likes to move into wide areas to receive the ball

Vision 

How good he is at recognising players in good positions to pass to (Creativity). The higher the rating the further and wider he will be able to “see” a pass.

 Vision refers to a player's ability to see a potential opening, not necessarily exploit it. A player might be able to see something to take advantage of but also requires the technical proficiency to pull it off; this attribute governs how likely they are to visualise something developing or, in the case of a higher rating here, spot something that another player might not.

[yonko]

11 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

I was pointing out how the instructions don't affect the players attributes which dictate how well they do things.

You've over complicated it, regardless of those attributes Off the Ball will be the primary factor.

Everything else is secondary and affects other things such as do they keep working hard all game, can they burst away from the opposition etc. But non of those attributes will make a player be able to find space when opposition players are near.  Obviously wider and deeper positions will naturally have more space, that's why those positions roles&duties differ on if it is a key attribute or not.

Feel free to consider whatever you want as necessary attributes. I listed what I think are the important attributes. I don't separate them into primary and secondary. They are all equally important and play a part in the game. 

1 hour ago, juusal said:

Okay vision was explained above, really weird that it works for everything else, off the ball actions included, as well. But for determination, what do you mean by "take advantage"? In what way? Players with little determination might not be motivated to do the run, like work rate, but I think (and hope, especially hope) that it's role in this case is very limited.

Btw if you have some more information on these please share it, I'm always very skeptical here, I usually believe only when I hear something is confirmed by the devs =) 

Determination is a very universal attribute, like decisions, that applies to all actions on the field.

[Petarpfk]

Absolutely, vision is not only the pass, it's the perception and understanding of football game, and determination is impotant for every action player make on the field, decisions is also very important.

Move into channels is best when u play with two strikers so one can help the other to have easier way to goal, but it can be also good with good attacking AMC or one lone pacey striker.

Roam from position only if you have good cover from the back(if you have 1 DM, and 2 MC) one MC can roam.

[Experienced Defender]

I like the "Move into channels" PI (as well as player trait), but tend to use it selectively (i.e. not for each single role where it's available), because giving too many players excessive freedom of movement can disrupt your tactical balance and overall team shape. Which particular roles/players I'll ask to move into channels depends on my tactical system and types of the players. It's important to always take the big picture into account, not just individual roles. Attributes that are always welcome for a player told to move into channels - off the ball, anticipation and ideally also acceleration (first touch and technique should be self-explaining).

[permanentquandary]

This is my understanding. Hope this helps.

 

 

[Jean0987654321]

If you want a player to just stick in the box, then I prolly wouldn't use the Move Into Channels PI

[Rashidi]

Basically, if you use move into channels, then when a player gets the ball those who have move into channels move between players and sometimes it can be almost impossible to pass the ball to them unless you have a team of KDBs. Essentially you want a nice mix and of course ultimately you want to consider this within the tactical system you are using.

One of the issues that arose in FM19 early and still is, is the proclivity of so many roles choosing to move into channels - prematurely. It is a good instruction to use/have, but you need to consider it within the confines of your system. This season I am playing a narrow setup so I need to think really carefully about which player/s I want running with that trait/PI. If you are one of those who is using it liberally then you are probably one of those who is struggling to break down packed defenses.

[dz47]

59 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Basically, if you use move into channels, then when a player gets the ball those who have move into channels move between players and sometimes it can be almost impossible to pass the ball to them unless you have a team of KDBs. Essentially you want a nice mix and of course ultimately you want to consider this within the tactical system you are using.

One of the issues that arose in FM19 early and still is, is the proclivity of so many roles choosing to move into channels - prematurely. It is a good instruction to use/have, but you need to consider it within the confines of your system. This season I am playing a narrow setup so I need to think really carefully about which player/s I want running with that trait/PI. If you are one of those who is using it liberally then you are probably one of those who is struggling to break down packed defenses.

Just to clarify, do you mean that players who move into channels (eg a striker) make it more difficult for other supporting players to find them with a pass?

[scwiffy]

On 22/12/2017 at 17:27, Cleon said:

The channel is the area between the fullback and central defender 

I really feel this should be explained in-game or at least in brackets on the PI for inexperienced players.

[Rashidi]

4 hours ago, dz47 said:

Just to clarify, do you mean that players who move into channels (eg a striker) make it more difficult for other supporting players to find them with a pass?

Have you seen the problem with some of the strikers in me1922? people were complaining that forwards were too far forward for some roles, some of those roles had move into channels locked, so finding them was a challenge for quite a few players. It wasn't impossible to get passes to them, you just needed to find the right settings.

[Gegenklaus]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

Have you seen the problem with some of the strikers in me1922? people were complaining that forwards were too far forward for some roles, some of those roles had move into channels locked, so finding them was a challenge for quite a few players. It wasn't impossible to get passes to them, you just needed to find the right settings.

I don’t understand this. Why does it make it harder for the players to find the strikers that has moves into channels?

[Rashidi]

12 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

I don’t understand this. Why does it make it harder for the players to find the strikers that has moves into channels?

Imagine a narrow configuration with an AM and two strikers and all of them have move into channels. Good luck finding them with a pass, you will need very good movement, decisions, passing vision and SPACE, it's an issue a lot of people are facing with stacked defenses.

[Mitja]

41 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Imagine a narrow configuration with an AM and two strikers and all of them have move into channels. Good luck finding them with a pass, you will need very good movement, decisions, passing vision and SPACE, it's an issue a lot of people are facing with stacked defenses.

What?

MIC at least gives impression of strikers moving around, you're confusing ME issue with tactics. Also in 442 diamond you need at least 2 players to MIC, it was even default formation with arrows on both strikers in good old days. Off the ball affects how good players are in finding place for opening, either centrally or on the flanks. This instruction has nothing to do with broken player movement in current ME.

[HUNT3R]

20 minutes ago, Mitja said:

What?

MIC at least gives impression of strikers moving around, you're confusing ME issue with tactics. Also in 442 diamond you need at least 2 players to MIC, it was even default formation with arrows on both strikers in good old days. Off the ball affects how good players are in finding place for opening, either centrally or on the flanks. This instruction has nothing to do with broken player movement in current ME.

I'm not going to speak for him, but my understanding of @Rashidi's comments is that it is all about space. If you have 2 strikers moving in to channels, that creates space in the middle for the AMC. If you have the AMC also moving into a channel, you're not utilising space very well as you'll be bunching up the AMC and a striker. So while MIC can be good, as Rashidi quite rightly said, you shouldn't just liberally apply it to every player and assume that's a good thing. I found the same with Roam from Position when I set up a 442 Diamond.

[Mitja]

From his post someone would think  lack of movement happens just because of use of (too many) MICs. But my question is why defend something so apparently broken?

[Rashidi]

1 hour ago, Mitja said:

What?

MIC at least gives impression of strikers moving around, you're confusing ME issue with tactics. Also in 442 diamond you need at least 2 players to MIC, it was even default formation with arrows on both strikers in good old days. Off the ball affects how good players are in finding place for opening, either centrally or on the flanks. This instruction has nothing to do with broken player movement in current ME.

You don't know how MIC works, and to you everything is broken.  I know this is one area SI has targeted for future improvement, because as it currently stands its not working good enough. Currently "move around" as you put it can be achieved with specific roles and the way they play. Its not a role per se we need to look at, its how they all work together. Targetting roles specifically  or PIs and saying they are broken is not helpful. For you everything is broken, from mentality down to Player Instructions. :-)

[Rashidi]

I am going to qualify what I said so it doesn't seem like a bad comment. SI have created a game to play by the rules they have set. Its their interpretation of what football is and how it can be achieved in a game. I have always maintained that where we can seek improvements within these parameters I am all for it. Whether I like the translation of coding to football depends on how I feel it can be achieved within their interpretation. Its like playing poker, if you don't like Texas Hold em, and instead prefer another style of poker, that's your choice.

So here with this game, SI have chosen to interpret the game within their own construct. So I will play the game within those rules, if they ever change the rules and make their interpretation unrealistic, that will be my personal opinion. It's within SI rights to define the game any way they want. As a customer, so long as I enjoy the experience I will continue playing it, otherwise I will stop.  So defending the game is moot, everyone has a right to play the game the way they want, within SI rules. The good thing about SI is that they will listen to the community and modify those rules if they are given a solid reason to, and that's what the naysayers need to do. You have mentioned many times that mentality is unrealistic. Fine, come up with a solid alternative. Shape was nuked because quite a few people came up with solid arguments against it and offered solutions. The roles in the game were a community driven effort. Even the TIs and PIs were drawn up with community feedback. Mentality and its splits were also done in concordance with the community. 

So if people have a better alternative, come up with it. Otherwise play by the rules SI have set. I for one am well past the age of coming up with alternatives. I am too old for 10 page proposals.

[Mitja]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

You don't know how MIC works, and to you everything is broken.  

That's all you can come up with? Anybody who watched FM match or two on full knows how it works. I was surprised and confused by what you wrote above as it makes no sense.

Anyway, it's always same with you guys. Taking text out of context, accusing people they have no clue what they're saying, insulting. I could understand if the game was yours or if you got paid for defending the game. 

[herne79]

@Mitja  You're making a bit of a habit of coming into threads in the Tactics forum and saying the game is broken in one way or another.  Please stop using that sort of language here as it gives people the wrong impression when they are trying to have tactical discussions.

Nobody is denying there is room for change and improvement in the Match Engine.  SI themselves have targeted forward's movement as one of the areas to improve, but that does not mean to say it is "broken" in it's current form.  You only need to look around this forum or at rashidi's bust the net YouTube channel to see evidence of people still enjoying forward's movement and get tactical ideas of how you can improve things for yourself.

So, by all means join in with constructive debate and advice if you like but please refrain from using such terms as "broken" as it's misleading.  Room for improvement?  Yes.  Broken?  No.