FM19 and beyond... Womens football? Do you want it?

[forameuss 1,669]

12 hours ago, Smurf said:

Example

News item

Ada Hegerberg of Norway and Lyon has won BBC Women's Footballer of the Year

 

News Item

Stephanie Roche has been nominated for best goal alongside Messi and Ronaldo.

 

I'm not talking an exhaustive database - something  basic that gives news items for now. 

I wouldn't think actual teams, tactics, stats for players etc. would be required at this stage.

But the same question that was originally asked still stands - why?  What's the point in purely having news items?  In a game that already has some pretty superfluous thing, this would take some beating.

12 hours ago, santy001 said:

Off the top of my head here's the things it would need:

- A new, or heavily modified match engine to represent the nuances of womens football tactically.

This.  If they were going to do it, to do it properly they would need to do something around that.  It's almost a different sport in the way it's played, so just lumping players into the current ME would be inaccurate and not particularly interesting.  Should they code an altered ME that modelled the sport better and - most importantly - differently to the current one, then I'd be a lot more interested in it.  But that's also an enormous amount of work.

[tiago_wakabayashi 167]

 

14 hours ago, CFuller said:

What is the point of adding inconsequential news items about women's football into FM if the sport itself is not simulated in-game?

I've always said this about women's football in FM: if SI are going to include it, they're going to do it properly. Simply adding a news article along the lines of "[England/USA/Japan/whoever] have won the Women's World Cup this year" would not be doing it properly.

I don't understand it too. The maximum I've seen is Marta winning the COB (Brazilian Olympic Comittee) Best Athlete, which is an award that is in the game.

 

[Smurf 697]

I don't see the point in a lot of news items. In fact I turn off all subscriptions for all news items anyway.

 

[Smurf 697]

What's the point of having news items about gay players... what's the point in having news items about players seen leaving nightclubs late at night... what's the point in a lot of the news items... 

I guess at least having women's football noted in the main game it might add more interest for younger players of the game. 

At the moment you cannot go to a football site without seeing some news around women's football.

That's the world we live in and it's a football management simulator, so it could  be simulated. 

[PJHoutman88 78]

1 hour ago, Smurf said:

What's the point of having news items about gay players... what's the point in having news items about players seen leaving nightclubs late at night... what's the point in a lot of the news items... 

I guess at least having women's football noted in the main game it might add more interest for younger players of the game. 

At the moment you cannot go to a football site without seeing some news around women's football.

That's the world we live in and it's a football management simulator, so it could  be simulated. 

I don't understand how it's so hard for you to get this. 

A player leaving a night club is actually signalling a lack of professionalism, so it's relevant to your job as manager. The story about a player coming out as gay is fluff, but it's related to players already generated into the database. By which I mean: they're in the database to do things other than being gay.

With your suggestion, they'd have to create quite a few female football players (if they don't want the same player to win it every year) who serve no purpose in the database other than randomly deciding who's won an award that the manager can never influence anyway. There won't be any matches simulated for these players (because there are no competitions in place), so the award as you suggest it would essentially boil down to this: SI create around 200 female players, and at the end of a season, a Random Number Generator picks a number between 1 and 200 to decide who's won it. And if that award is to keep going more than just 10 seasons, they'd also have to set a newgen system in place. Once again, for no reason other than to have an award which is purely cosmetic. They'd probably have to pay licensing too. All to have a news item.

 

EDIT: Not to mention that I think many female top players would actually be quite annoyed at such a hollow representation of women's football and would far prefer none at all. 

 

Edited December 23, 2017 by PJHoutman88

[mrbrownsays 8]

Why do we have to wait until it has championship popularity. FM has loads of less popular leagues than that.

Personally I love the idea. Really want to be able to be the womens England manager winning a world cup and then getting the mens job to show them how it is done. Could see a good story idea in that.

[HUNT3R 2,593]

Just now, mrbrownsays said:

Why do we have to wait until it has championship popularity. FM has loads of less popular leagues than that.

Because it'll take a lot of work to implement. A lot more than just adding a new mens league.

[PJHoutman88 78]

30 minutes ago, mrbrownsays said:

Why do we have to wait until it has championship popularity. FM has loads of less popular leagues than that.

 

 Have a read.

[mrbrownsays 8]

I wonder why championship has been put as the yardstick though? I get it needs to be popular, more popular than it is now indeed. But Championship attendances seems a very high bar to me.

[PJHoutman88 78]

25 minutes ago, mrbrownsays said:

I wonder why championship has been put as the yardstick though? I get it needs to be popular, more popular than it is now indeed. But Championship attendances seems a very high bar to me.

I would imagine that's been the subject of market research. 

[Khazard 12]

Why are people saying stats would have to be reweighted because 20 strength in a female does not equal 20 strength in a man..but they aren't playing men..so doesn't matter if the stat weights aren't changed lol.

[Federico 1,271]

I would never play that.

[Cougar2010 466]

2 hours ago, Khazard said:

Why are people saying stats would have to be reweighted because 20 strength in a female does not equal 20 strength in a man..but they aren't playing men..so doesn't matter if the stat weights aren't changed lol.

But they are part of the same game so it does matter.

[tacticsdude 90]

11 hours ago, PJHoutman88 said:

A player leaving a night club is actually signalling a lack of professionalism, so it's relevant to your job as manager.

Exactly. I've always wondered why there isn't there MORE of this in FM. It is very hard to gauge your player's mood, personalities. A simple mention of 'personality:balanced' is not enough to understand how that player is developing mentally, how they feel about the club and what kind of prospects they have in mind.

I wonder what happens when a player gets married, or has a first born. They must be having a hard time concentrating if they are planning a honeymoon or if they can't sleep because of the baby. But none of this is shown in the game. I've had solid performers that have given many good years to the club that suddenly drop form for 6months straight usually ending up on the transfer list, and I wonder if they are going through a tough family time, if I had any way to know I would give them more time, several weeks off, whatever it takes to support the player. However, in FM it seems that the only way to know anything is via very occasional messages, like when a player signs a new contract and it say that he loves the club and respects my leadership, and that was all news to me. It shouldn't be news, real management is about knowing your people.

We should know if they are out at a night club on a week that we've set training to high. IRL some players fake injury or overstay their time off, mouth off to the media or say something silly to their fans/friends that gets out. It reveals their personality, their professionalism and how they feel about the club, and it is a great way to anticipate how they'll perform at club objectives. Players may also speak publicly about rivals, club decisions, etc, it doesn't have to be bad stuff either, I wouldn't mind my captain coming out publicly to defend my club's style of play, I know he likes the style and understands it better than most.

Also, players could drop in with something personal to say. There's a wonderful story told by Guardiola about having second thoughts about his philosophy early in his management career, and it was Iniesta that came to him to tell him he believed in the philosophy and was excited about the future, and for Guardiola it was a cathartic moment to have the support of a player he admires.

So, all this stuff is in there to give context, and IMO there's not nearly enough.

[tacticsdude 90]

2 hours ago, Khazard said:

Why are people saying stats would have to be reweighted because 20 strength in a female does not equal 20 strength in a man

I don't understand why it needs to be reweighed either. Just give them numbers to mean the same thing they already do. So no female player can get to 20 strength, fine, but that's about the only stat they can't fill out. Many will have good stats for say agility. Their mentals should be similar to men, particularly at the highest levels - I would give Abby Wambach 15+ vision on her last season. Many of their skills will be lower because they currently don't train at the same level, so let them have the right numbers. Like Alex Morgan gets 12 finishing or so.

And like all players, each individual will have their own set of skills. Have you seen Hope Solo distribute a drop kick? Her ability to deliver the ball high up the pitch is no less than your average first div male goalie, certainly better than my current GK with 12 kicking. If the skills had to be 'weighed down' to compensate the genders, Hope Solo might end up with 25 kicking. So don't reweigh, just use the same system and measure them the same way.

[PJHoutman88 78]

1 hour ago, Cougar2010 said:

But they are part of the same game so it does matter.

No, it doesn't. They won't play each other. Have the strongest female players have 20 strength, even if she's technically much weaker than Akinfenwa. The stats are relative. It doesn't matter if a female could theoretically push an oil tanker with strength 20, as long as it works in the match engine compared to the opposition

[Cougar2010 466]

1 minute ago, PJHoutman88 said:

No, it doesn't. They won't play each other. Have the strongest female players have 20 strength, even if she's technically much weaker than Akinfenwa. The stats are relative. It doesn't matter if a female could theoretically push an oil tanker with strength 20, as long as it works in the match engine compared to the opposition

While it might seem that way its really not that simple.

On one hand women play football different to men despite it being the same game while on the other it would look wrong to have a women's team rated as highly as a men's.

You also have technical issues with some attributes linking to height/weight etc.

So basically could you simply change the names and the sex? Yes

Would it look right? No.

[PJHoutman88 78]

'20' isn't an absolute value. It only represents the absolute best. As long as the match engine allows for differences between a female 20 and a male 20, there is no problem. 

[tacticsdude 90]

5 hours ago, PJHoutman88 said:

Have the strongest female players have 20 strength, even if she's technically much weaker than Akinfenwa.

For what purpose? Why not just have the women be exactly what they would be against Akinfenwa. For instance, I would rate Abby Wambach about as as strong as Radamel Falcao, so just give her that number, not an adjusted version. Wambach becomes 12-ish strength in the same system, not 19 in a whole new system. And that means that the rest of the league will probably have strength 5-8.

What's the problem with that? What's missing in the engine that cannot be accurately represented by simply giving Alex Morgan 9 in strength? Why do we need to invent a new numbers system so she can have a 14?

[rusty217 91]

Would I rather SI get licences for what would effectively be a completely different game, or more licences to expand the existing game? Pretty easy choice there

[Khazard 12]

8 hours ago, PJHoutman88 said:

No, it doesn't. They won't play each other. Have the strongest female players have 20 strength, even if she's technically much weaker than Akinfenwa. The stats are relative. It doesn't matter if a female could theoretically push an oil tanker with strength 20, as long as it works in the match engine compared to the opposition

This.

[Khazard 12]

8 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

While it might seem that way its really not that simple.

On one hand women play football different to men despite it being the same game while on the other it would look wrong to have a women's team rated as highly as a men's.

You also have technical issues with some attributes linking to height/weight etc.

So basically could you simply change the names and the sex? Yes

Would it look right? No.

You still don't get that women's teams are not compared to men's teams..a rating for a women's team is only in relation to other women's teams.

Women playing football differently would not be represented through stats..it would require a modified ME.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Khazard

[Cougar2010 466]

1 hour ago, Khazard said:

You still don't get that women's teams are not compared to men's teams..a rating for a women's team is only in relation to other women's teams.

You still aren't getting that they would be part of the same game - FM so would still be judged like that and you would have no end of users complaining on the forum that a female player had too high CA, strength, pace, height etc etc etc.

 

1 hour ago, Khazard said:

Women playing football differently would not be represented through stats..it would require a modified ME.

So at least now you are accepting that it would need a modified ME which in itself makes it very unlikely to happen.

[PJHoutman88 78]

3 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

You still aren't getting that they would be part of the same game - FM so would still be judged like that and you would have no end of users complaining on the forum that a female player had too high CA, strength, pace, height etc etc etc.

 

So at least now you are accepting that it would need a modified ME which in itself makes it very unlikely to happen.

But if they have a modified match engine, then a female 20 would work differently to a male 20, so those users complaining would be complete idiots.  

 

Edited December 24, 2017 by PJHoutman88

[PJHoutman88 78]

8 hours ago, tacticsdude said:

For what purpose? Why not just have the women be exactly what they would be against Akinfenwa. For instance, I would rate Abby Wambach about as as strong as Radamel Falcao, so just give her that number, not an adjusted version. Wambach becomes 12-ish strength in the same system, not 19 in a whole new system. And that means that the rest of the league will probably have strength 5-8.

What's the problem with that? What's missing in the engine that cannot be accurately represented by simply giving Alex Morgan 9 in strength? Why do we need to invent a new numbers system so she can have a 14?

I'm not an expert, but I'd imagine there'd be severe balancing issues in capping the best female players at only a percentage of CA (let's say 150 instead of 200). I really don't see the problem with using the same 200 scale. You're the one advocating inventing a new system, not me. 

Edited December 24, 2017 by PJHoutman88

[Barside 852]

3 hours ago, PJHoutman88 said:

I'm not an expert, but I'd imagine there'd be severe balancing issues in capping the best female players at only a percentage of CA (let's say 150 instead of 200). I really don't see the problem with using the same 200 scale. You're the one advocating inventing a new system, not me. 

Using the same 200CA system without modifying the weightings or down rating the attributes under the hood you are essentially saying that in all aspect the women's game is the equal of the men's game & without wishing to incur the wrath of those who enjoy the women's game it is not an equal to the men's game from a technical, tactical intelligence or physical point of view & as such lower attributes are a must for a game that is striving to be an accurate simulation. 

As someone mentioned earlier the editor does allow the community to create an alternate world of female football so long as the user can forgive the male preposition in the grammar & the lack of female form in the animations yet none have been created to date which suggest there is true desire to manager a female side other than wishes to project an politically correct attitude that may or may not influence that person's decision on whether the create a save for the male or female database. 

Maybe a stepping stone could be for SI to allow for female players, newgen's while also allowing access to the text files so that custom file creators can add in female prepositions to existing text string as I expect the existing male only approach to newgen's & the media could be discouraging a content creator from investing their time to put together such a mammoth undertaking.

[PJHoutman88 78]

53 minutes ago, Barside said:

Using the same 200CA system without modifying the weightings or down rating the attributes under the hood you are essentially saying that in all aspect the women's game is the equal of the men's game & without wishing to incur the wrath of those who enjoy the women's game it is not an equal to the men's game from a technical, tactical intelligence or physical point of view & as such lower attributes are a must for a game that is striving to be an accurate simulation. 

As someone mentioned earlier the editor does allow the community to create an alternate world of female football so long as the user can forgive the male preposition in the grammar & the lack of female form in the animations yet none have been created to date which suggest there is true desire to manager a female side other than wishes to project an politically correct attitude that may or may not influence that person's decision on whether the create a save for the male or female database. 

Maybe a stepping stone could be for SI to allow for female players, newgen's while also allowing access to the text files so that custom file creators can add in female prepositions to existing text string as I expect the existing male only approach to newgen's & the media could be discouraging a content creator from investing their time to put together such a mammoth undertaking.

1. I have said that they need to create a different engine for female football. It would be really helpful if you read other posts before replying, I am quite obviously not saying that the women's game equals the men's game, I am saying that there's no need to create a new scale for female attributes if they're not going to play male footballers. Like I said, 200 CA, 20 dribbling etc are all relative stats. Otherwise, Akinfenwa would have 10 strength because he's not as strong as the strongest human to ever live. It relates only to the rest of the database. As a women's database would obviously exclude male players, there's no need to give the strongest female a lower number. There is absolutely no reason to compare the two, ever.  

2. I think you're vastly underestimating the amount of work it would take one user to make even a single league all-female. Putting aside actual game data research such as putting the right names/attributes and personal data to players, they'd have to set up a way to make sure no male players enter the league, either from outside or through new generation. That means completely resetting the name generation to make sure only female first names enter the database. It also includes transfer restrictions, but yet in such a way that money earned doesn't become useless, then making sure the level of newgens ensure a continuous level of quality so the league remains balanced. And, at the end of all this extremely intensive, tedious work, you'd still be playing 'the men's game' during the actual matches, just with female names. Considering it's been established how much the two differ, why would anyone settle for playing that? 

If making multiple leagues, you'd have to find a way to make those leagues interact while not interacting with the male leagues, which I think would be impossible. 

[Barside 852]

Apologies on point one but has Cougar has said that just shifts the problem to the ME team to create a second engine or as I said apply modifiers to downgrade the attributes under the hood before the match is run through the ME code.

As for point two I am not underestimating the task at all, I spent more than a month updating 4th & 5th tier club data for my personal German lower league file a couple of versions back, took me more than a month & most of my free time outside of work to complete only to find out I neglected a single data point at each club which negatively impacted the long term realism of the save.

As a community update the task off compiling a database of female footballers, managers & coaches is made less demanding due to the shared workload & would essentially replicates how the current FM database started to form before evolving into beast it is today, everything else is doable by deleting the data from the default database & creating an entirely new female football world with a few additional tools & admittedly not immediately simple updates to the editor & the way FM uses the data in the game code but certainly not impossible or impractilce to create something that could allow FM to dip its toe into the uncharted waters of female football manager

[forameuss 1,669]

The ratings system doesn't necessarily need changed, as long as they do the whole thing correctly and designs a new ME from the ground up to be relevant to the women's sport.  Like I said earlier, it'd be very interesting to play a game where each match plays out demonstrably differently, along with the different league structures.  But if you are going to use the same ratings system, then you run into other problems.  Not in the game, as like others have said, they are all relative to the ME.  But they're something else entirely to a user.  If you can only describe two very different things with a very restricted set of words, then you're going to struggle to model just how these things are particularly different.  If you put a bog-standard 170CA star against a female player in this hypothetical database who is considered at the same relative level in her sport, then having them with similar attributes just wouldn't look...right.  Probably not explaining it very well, but I'm sure everyone who plays FM has an idea of what certain sets of attributes "mean", so having new baselines with the same set of attributes just seems a bit half-arsed and problematic really.  If that makes sense.

[tacticsdude 90]

3 hours ago, Barside said:

Using the same 200CA system without modifying the weightings or down rating the attributes under the hood you are essentially saying that in all aspect the women's game is the equal of the men's game

I see a few people feel this way, and I honestly don't know what you guys mean so I could use a more detailed explanation. How exactly is the women's game so technically different that the current attribute system makes it impossible to define the way they play?

It seems to me that the current system of skills and attributes was designed to allow for customizing a player's skills and style as a human being. You could use it for a children's league if you cap the CA at 50. Why can't you use it for women?

I'm trying to be specific to try to further the conversation, so instead of arguing on the philosophy of it I'll just give an example:

Alex Morgan
CA: 118 / PA: 125
6 crossing
7 free kicks
12 finishing
7 passing
9 vision
11 technique
12 decisions
15 determination
8 flair
8 workrate
12 acceleration
13 pace
13 stamina

What exactly makes it technically impossible to simply input those numbers in the current ME and let her play?
If you play her against first-div men she'll struggle to connect with the ball and will fail to score. If you play her against women she'll likely be higher rated, she'll find more space and score more goals.

The current match engine can handle Messi as well as 5th division youth players. Why can't it handle women? Is there a particular bounce in their step? Is there a soft way they touch the ball that only women can do?

[forameuss 1,669]

1 minute ago, tacticsdude said:

I see a few people feel this way, and I honestly don't know what you guys mean so I could use a more detailed explanation. How exactly is the women's game so technically different that the current attribute system makes it impossible to define the way they play?

It seems to me that the current system of skills and attributes was designed to allow for customizing a player's skills and style as a human being. You could use it for a children's league if you cap the CA at 50. Why can't you use it for women?

I'm trying to be specific to try to further the conversation, so instead of arguing on the philosophy of it I'll just give an example:

Alex Morgan
CA: 118 / PA: 125
6 crossing
7 free kicks
12 finishing
7 passing
9 vision
11 technique
12 decisions
15 determination
8 flair
8 workrate
12 acceleration
13 pace
13 stamina

What exactly makes it technically impossible to simply input those numbers in the current ME and let her play?
If you play her against first-div men she'll struggle to connect with the ball and will fail to score. If you play her against women she'll likely be higher rated, she'll find more space and score more goals.

The current match engine can handle Messi as well as 5th division youth players. Why can't it handle women? Is there a particular bounce in their step? Is there a soft way they touch the ball that only women can do?

Because it's unfair to put them in a system that can make it possible to directly compare them to the men's game, which is - and probably always will be - the big problem with people taking the sport seriously.  You've even compared them within the post. 

They absolutely could use the same attributes system, but it would be a half-arsed and poor solution to it.

[tacticsdude 90]

Just now, forameuss said:

Because it's unfair to put them in a system that can make it possible to directly compare them to the men's game

I don't understand. Unfair to who?

 

[tacticsdude 90]

It is not that weird to compare men to women. Here, I'll do me:

Tactics Dude
CA: 85 / PA: 135

11 crossing
7 free kicks
6 finishing
14 passing
17 vision
6 technique
18 decisions
14 determination
14 flair
15 workrate
4 acceleration
5 pace
1 stamina

[forameuss 1,669]

3 minutes ago, tacticsdude said:

I don't understand. Unfair to who?

To the women who likely just want to play their own sport without being directly compared to the male sport. 

"Aye, they can play football, but they wouldn't beat a good Juniors team..."

Who cares?  Does it really matter how one player considered at the top of the women's game matches up to someone in what may as well be a different sport?  Yet the lazy comparisons get made, and suddenly the women's game is derided purely because it doesn't match up using unfair comparisons.  

Just now, tacticsdude said:

It is not that weird to compare men to women. Here, I'll do me:

Tactics Dude
CA: 85 / PA: 135

11 crossing
7 free kicks
6 finishing
14 passing
17 vision
6 technique
18 decisions
14 determination
14 flair
15 workrate
4 acceleration
5 pace
1 stamina

Aye, "visionary"...

Edited December 24, 2017 by forameuss

[tacticsdude 90]

3 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Aye, "visionary"...

Yeah, I used to run the pitch when playing small court 5v5. I'm also older now, it is much easier to understand the game as years pile on, while my physical stats quickly spiral towards 0.

Edited December 24, 2017 by tacticsdude

[tacticsdude 90]

1 hour ago, forameuss said:

To the women who likely just want to play their own sport without being directly compared to the male sport. 

Just to be clear, I have the utmost respect for these female athletes, specially when you look at how much they get paid. Alex Morgan is a popular striker + the face of marketing campaigns, playing at the highest level of her sport and with a sizable trophy cabinet, and her stated salary is only $0.5mill. Many women in the US league are playing for minimum wage or less. That means their training (facilities, coaches) is far from first class. Pointing at an average female player and saying that she doesn't measure up to your average Barza player is as ridiculous as pointing at a male office worker like me and saying that my stats don't measure up to the average Barza player, ignoring the fact that only a select few humans get to dedicate their lives to the sport and get to train at top facilities with top coaches.

I do see your point about the inevitable comparisons. But I don't think it is the game's job to stop society from saying unfair things. And having a separate ME just to decrease the likelihood of unfair comparisons seems silly to me, particularly when the people that want to make those comparisons are not going into databases and analyzing detailed stats to make them.

The point I'm trying to make is that I see no reason not to just add the players into the current ME with stats that represent them accurately, even if it means Alex Morgan gets 12 finishing even though in her sport she is known as a top striker. Whoever is playing FM and wanting to bother with female leagues is probably a fan anyway, and informed enough about the realities of the sport as to not be doing it for the sake of silly comparisons.

It might actually help further the women's sport. If you take over a US league team in FM, and excited on your first day on the job you realize a bunch of your players and staff are unpaid volunteers, your 3 key players takes up most of your club's wages with what's essentially office salaries (and one of them has a Doctor's degree so she could be making 3x more money if she just quits the team), your training facilities are rated as poor, and your 'youth development' is just your 14y/o niece that looks up to you and has a poster of Alex Morgan in her room. I think it helps shed a light at the huge uphill battle that female athletes have ahead of them, and it allows us to appreciate jut how hard the top players have had to work to get to where they are now.

[MoxeysTheName 208]

How many players can people name that come from outwith the Uk and don't play for the US national team?

[CFuller 1,749]

4 hours ago, MoxeysTheName said:

How many players can people name that come from outwith the Uk and don't play for the US national team?

Vivianne Miedema, Lieke Martens, Jenny Marozsan, Christine Sinclair, Wendie Renard, Marta. Those are just six of the many I know, mainly from watching major tournaments.

Anyway, back to the main topic of conversation...

FIFA rate women's players on the same 1-100 scale as the men, though in this case, ratings are not relative to male players. Carli Lloyd was rated 92 overall on FIFA 17 (I can't find women's ratings for FIFA 18). Neymar and Luis Suárez were also rated at 92, in the men's game.

Nobody is arguing that Lloyd is on a par with Neymar - technically, mentally or physically. Likewise, nobody would argue that Simona Halep is on a par with Rafael Nadal in tennis, or that Anya Shrubsole is on a par with Jimmy Anderson in cricket. Halep and Shrubsole are widely regarded as world-class players in their chosen fields; they should not have to be unfairly compared to their male counterparts, whom they will NEVER compete with/against.

In FM, using a modified ME for women's football, and giving Lloyd a rating that shows she is an outstanding player in her field, would be - in my view - the right way to go about things. Using the same ME for both genders and rating Lloyd to be on a par with a male League One or even League Two player would be deeply insulting, not just to her, but to other leading female players.

[Hilly27 18]

Surely the answer is in the short term, is to have women's leagues and competitions simulated in the background, (not playable), and you can select to include them, or not in your news feed.

[MoxeysTheName 208]

2 hours ago, CFuller said:

Vivianne Miedema, Lieke Martens, Jenny Marozsan, Christine Sinclair, Wendie Renard, Marta. Those are just six of the many I know, mainly from watching major tournaments.

Anyway, back to the main topic of conversation...

FIFA rate women's players on the same 1-100 scale as the men, though in this case, ratings are not relative to male players. Carli Lloyd was rated 92 overall on FIFA 17 (I can't find women's ratings for FIFA 18). Neymar and Luis Suárez were also rated at 92, in the men's game.

Nobody is arguing that Lloyd is on a par with Neymar - technically, mentally or physically. Likewise, nobody would argue that Simona Halep is on a par with Rafael Nadal in tennis, or that Anya Shrubsole is on a par with Jimmy Anderson in cricket. Halep and Shrubsole are widely regarded as world-class players in their chosen fields; they should not have to be unfairly compared to their male counterparts, whom they will NEVER compete with/against.

In FM, using a modified ME for women's football, and giving Lloyd a rating that shows she is an outstanding player in her field, would be - in my view - the right way to go about things. Using the same ME for both genders and rating Lloyd to be on a par with a male League One or even League Two player would be deeply insulting, not just to her, but to other leading female players.

The depth of players is important as it effects the database. It is also important to determine how much knowledge there is of those players among the general public as it  would have an obvious effect on any potential sales.

How many clubs are there in there in the women's game? I only ask because looking on Wikipedia, I see that Alex Morgan has played more games for her country than she has played in her entire club career. Are there enough clubs sides to create  a game worth playing?

[CFuller 1,749]

14 minutes ago, MoxeysTheName said:

The depth of players is important as it effects the database. It is also important to determine how much knowledge there is of those players among the general public as it  would have an obvious effect on any potential sales.

How many clubs are there in there in the women's game? I only ask because looking on Wikipedia, I see that Alex Morgan has played more games for her country than she has played in her entire club career. Are there enough clubs sides to create  a game worth playing?

Those Wikipedia records only take league games into account, and league seasons are often very short. The FA WSL season is only 18 rounds long, with two divisions of 10 teams. In America, there were 24 rounds in the NWSL regular season, plus two play-off rounds.

Also, women's national teams generally play more often than the men. For instance, England had 18 fixtures in 2017. The Netherlands had 21.

[Barside 852]

13 hours ago, CFuller said:

Vivianne Miedema, Lieke Martens, Jenny Marozsan, Christine Sinclair, Wendie Renard, Marta. Those are just six of the many I know, mainly from watching major tournaments.

Anyway, back to the main topic of conversation...

FIFA rate women's players on the same 1-100 scale as the men, though in this case, ratings are not relative to male players. Carli Lloyd was rated 92 overall on FIFA 17 (I can't find women's ratings for FIFA 18). Neymar and Luis Suárez were also rated at 92, in the men's game.

Nobody is arguing that Lloyd is on a par with Neymar - technically, mentally or physically. Likewise, nobody would argue that Simona Halep is on a par with Rafael Nadal in tennis, or that Anya Shrubsole is on a par with Jimmy Anderson in cricket. Halep and Shrubsole are widely regarded as world-class players in their chosen fields; they should not have to be unfairly compared to their male counterparts, whom they will NEVER compete with/against.

In FM, using a modified ME for women's football, and giving Lloyd a rating that shows she is an outstanding player in her field, would be - in my view - the right way to go about things. Using the same ME for both genders and rating Lloyd to be on a par with a male League One or even League Two player would be deeply insulting, not just to her, but to other leading female players.

A modified ME that allows the CA200 range to be used is IMO the only logical option, using the current ME & rating female players based on the male database criteria will instantly limit the depth to which SI could allow demostic female league pyramids to go as you won’t need to drop to far off the elite professional league zone before you start encountering players who cannot even justify a CA rating of 1 when compared to the male database.

[tiago_wakabayashi 167]

In a short term, I could be favour to Si keeps with one ME and use lower attributes to women players, because the work they would to create and keep two MEs by years as they were doing with the 2D/3D till this version. But I see the current ME just need to add some things to be perfect or near that. From this would possible to think in an own ME for women and separate the attributes like FIFA.

But in the other side, starting with lower attributes and using the same ME could bring problems off the game and I think it unfair, because that I said I could be favour that in a short term...

[HUNT3R 2,593]

44 minutes ago, tiago_wakabayashi said:

In a short term, I could be favour to Si keeps with one ME and use lower attributes to women players, because the work they would to create and keep two MEs by years as they were doing with the 2D/3D till this version. But I see the current ME just need to add some things to be perfect or near that. From this would possible to think in an own ME for women and separate the attributes like FIFA.

But in the other side, starting with lower attributes and using the same ME could bring problems off the game and I think it unfair, because that I said I could be favour that in a short term...

There's just one ME.

How much does the women's game differ from the men's game in terms of stats produced, ie amount of shots, corners, passes etc. because that will be another factor as to whether there needs to be a separate ME for them.

[rwq 1]

On 22/12/2017 at 03:06, tiago_wakabayashi said:

I don't remember any case in pro football, just in other sports, more recently in the brazilian women's Superliga (volley).

Jaeyah Saelua who was featured in Next Goal Wins with American Samoa was transgender and played for the national team before moving to America to study.

[noobish abbz 11]

Wouldn't play it myself but i'm sure some people would. However SI is a business and to create the first database would take a hell of a lot of time and cost them a hell of a lot of money, and financially therefore not viable at this time. That said, the match engine and things like that wouldn't take long at all. Add in a few differences, ie, players getting pregnant and it'd be essentially the same. 

[RodentofDoom 41]

It's still something for the future

Currently as already stated there just isn't the mass market appeal for it.

 

If eventually it does make it in, I won't complain as it would have earned the right to be there.

[Snorks 643]

I would like it in the game. I think it is becoming and will become stronger, a pathway for careers - either through or to aim at. Staff do move between the sports IRL, Phil Neville is prime example, not to mention however many physios etc have worked both side of the gender fence.

BUT I can also understand why SI are not looking into it at the moment. The work involved in implementing it into the game would be huge and has to be done properly or not at all. Maybe as an add-on that can be purchased who knows -  I reckon it will be part of FM in years to come, but it could a long time.

I have seen player-modded womens databases around the fansites, but have never actually used one, I might download one for my next save and see how it pans out.

 

[tiago_wakabayashi 167]

On 10/06/2018 at 19:01, rwq said:

Jaeyah Saelua who was featured in Next Goal Wins with American Samoa was transgender and played for the national team before moving to America to study.

I searched about her and she left the National Team after she did the surgery. After that, she wasn't be able to keep the same performance alike the men teammates and she's aiming a place in the women's team. I thought the whole story interesting. 

On 11/06/2018 at 00:59, Snorks said:

would like it in the game. I think it is becoming and will become stronger, a pathway for careers - either through or to aim at. Staff do move between the sports IRL, Phil Neville is prime example, not to mention however many physios etc have worked both side of the gender fence.

An local example I remember is Renê Simões. He is famous in men's football coaching Jamaica in 1998 WC and coached the Women's Brazil in their gold era (2004). 

[Snorks 643]

The transgender in sport is going to be a very rocky road for those involved. Here in New Zealand, an amateur male cyclist, who was average or slightly better than average came out as transgender, and is going through the process of transition.

She now competes in the Ladies events, and everyone is up in arms because she is winning!

The governing body are happy that she meets the criteria (they have a policy around it) and that she can compete as a woman.

I guess the same has to happen in every sport at some point.

But hey ho - we digress from the OP lol 

 

Edited June 14, 2018 by Snorks