FM19 and beyond... Womens football? Do you want it?

[FrazT]

Personally, I feel we are a very long way from women's football being in the game, for a lot of perfectly reasonable commercial reasons.  Extra sales have to seriously outweigh implementation costs and at the moment, I don't see it happening.

[Lanko]

I wish at least it could be moddable or an unnoficial, fictious league/teams, so players could make their own databases.

Anyway, I wish there's also an option so both could even play together, because I want to make a custom league with Game of Thrones houses, and I want some of the female characters on the teams =p 

[Carninho]

the game comes with a free editor, just create a little community and create a db, its not hard, plenty of people create their own db's and share them.

if you want it badly enough put some effort in and do it. obviously the vast majority of FM players don't care about women's football (including myself) otherwise SI might look at something themselves.

[jcw163]

Personally think there's absolutely no excuse for this to not be included in the game, the profile of the sport is increasing massively, as you can see simply from the increase in media coverage on news websites, via the Womens Football Show, the coverage of World Cups and Euros, the profile of players like Toni Duggan or Nikita Parris, the inclusion of Eni Aluko and Alex Scott during Russia 2018 coverage. It's an absolute no brainer and really considering there's the World Cup in France in Summer 2019 it's pretty inexcusable steps aren't already being taken, it's not the 1920s anymore, we don't need to lock women out of the stadium, we shouldn't lock them out of the game.

[Guest]

Other than increasing costs above the potential revenue gained due to the investment and ongoing development required to do it to their standards no, there's no excuse.

Shame on SI for considering the need to maximise profit, what other commercial entity does this?

[Carninho]

29 minutes ago, jcw163 said:

Personally think there's absolutely no excuse for this to not be included in the game, the profile of the sport is increasing massively, as you can see simply from the increase in media coverage on news websites, via the Womens Football Show, the coverage of World Cups and Euros, the profile of players like Toni Duggan or Nikita Parris, the inclusion of Eni Aluko and Alex Scott during Russia 2018 coverage. It's an absolute no brainer and really considering there's the World Cup in France in Summer 2019 it's pretty inexcusable steps aren't already being taken, it's not the 1920s anymore, we don't need to lock women out of the stadium, we shouldn't lock them out of the game.

I 100% don't agree with you on this. its not popular enough to be included. EA FIFA games dropped women's football. 

if there was demand for it SI would be on it as they would see money in it, there isn't so they wont. 

again IF it was that popular then at least one person in the FM universe would have created their own database

the bit about the 1920's is very over dramatic  

[forameuss]

1 minute ago, Carninho said:

I 100% don't agree with you on this. its not popular enough to be included. EA FIFA games dropped women's football. 

if there was demand for it SI would be on it as they would see money in it, there isn't so they wont. 

again IF it was that popular then at least one person in the FM universe would have created their own database

the bit about the 1920's is very over dramatic  

It wouldn't be quite as easy as just making a database.  Any proper solution would likely involve separate databases working in parallel, or at the very least a good load of code in the back-end of the game to make sure that the two games didn't intersect.  It's not as simple as getting some researchers together and building a database.  Unless you're fine with it being a bit half-arsed, like some edited files are.

[FrazT]

I repeat what I said in a previous post:  "Extra sales have to seriously outweigh implementation costs and at the moment, I don't see it happening."

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, forameuss said:

It wouldn't be quite as easy as just making a database.  Any proper solution would likely involve separate databases working in parallel, or at the very least a good load of code in the back-end of the game to make sure that the two games didn't intersect.  It's not as simple as getting some researchers together and building a database.  Unless you're fine with it being a bit half-arsed, like some edited files are.

A case in point is the EEE lower league file, I think that took 2-3 years to build up to a reasonable standard.

[Carninho]

5 minutes ago, forameuss said:

It wouldn't be quite as easy as just making a database.  Any proper solution would likely involve separate databases working in parallel, or at the very least a good load of code in the back-end of the game to make sure that the two games didn't intersect.  It's not as simple as getting some researchers together and building a database.  Unless you're fine with it being a bit half-arsed, like some edited files are.

Not necessarily directed at you forameuss, but yeah if its something I wanted enough then a half-arsed db would be enough of a starting point?

I've done my own edits back in the day.

I mean we have guy's like Fenech spending years creating a legends version on the game, right down to others using CM98 to setup their own DB's

It can be done by a fan community, show there is enough interest and need by starting something, even it its using an older less complex version of FM? Its far from an impossible task.

 

[forameuss]

1 minute ago, Carninho said:

Not necessarily directed at you forameuss, but yeah if its something I wanted enough then a half-arsed db would be enough of a starting point?

I've done my own edits back in the day.

I mean we have guy's like Fenech spending years creating a legends version on the game, right down to others using CM98 to setup their own DB's

It can be done by a fan community, show there is enough interest and need by starting something, even it its using an older less complex version of FM? Its far from an impossible task.

 

It wasn't meant as any kind of comment, just that if anyone was going to do a women's db, it would come with a lot of caveats.  I don't delve into the advanced editor much, so maybe you can achieve it, but I don't think you could properly segregate things in the way that you could with the sort of access SI have.  It isn't impossible to do by any means, but it isn't anywhere near as easy to get right with just the editor.  Which might be fine for some.

[jcw163]

34 minutes ago, Carninho said:

Again IF it was that popular then at least one person in the FM universe would have created their own database

the bit about the 1920's is very over dramatic  

Someone did make one though - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1315662285

And yeh it was a joke about when women's football got banned by the FA in 1921 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_football_in_England#Banning,_decline_and_reappearance

 

I don't buy the commercial argument at all, it's a total cop out, "ooh it's not commercially viable, anyway this year we've got the Indonesian second division" - Yeh bet that's driving sales ;-)

[Carninho]

Cool, well if there is a DB out there then give that a go and keep that community active.

This is how SI will see the popularity and demand, maybe start a thread in the editors section on here to create more of a buzz?

the number will need to grow a bit:

6,776	Unique Visitors
1,608	Current Subscribers
36	Current Favorites

playing devils advocate though, its taken till page 5 to point out that a db does exist, so again it cant be that high on the radar of the people on here demanding one.

 

I'm pretty sure that SI have answered the question in this thread, but if not there was another one on this topic in which they did.

adding extra mens leagues i.e. the Indonesian second division is in the interests of the main game, and doesn't require that much extra resource. you don't need to be too accurate with the player stats as they will all be low. 

 

[forameuss]

24 minutes ago, jcw163 said:

I don't buy the commercial argument at all, it's a total cop out, "ooh it's not commercially viable, anyway this year we've got the Indonesian second division" - Yeh bet that's driving sales ;-)

Does it really need said again?  Anyone who knows how to use the basic rules of the editor could be given a spreadsheet with the researched data (gathered for "free" on a voluntary basis) and probably create the same leagues that SI do.

That isn't possible for a women's database, because it needs a hell of a lot of code in the back-end to be done properly.  That code requires resources to build it, so the commercial argument is perfectly viable, perfectly understandable, and pretty far from a "total cop-out".

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, jcw163 said:

Someone did make one though - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1315662285

And yeh it was a joke about when women's football got banned by the FA in 1921 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_football_in_England#Banning,_decline_and_reappearance

 

I don't buy the commercial argument at all, it's a total cop out, "ooh it's not commercially viable, anyway this year we've got the Indonesian second division" - Yeh bet that's driving sales ;-)

What don't you buy? Here are a few of the things that I reckon SI would need to do to make any attempt at the women's game to be more than a hamfisted publicity grab;

• Create an entirely new database for let's say 50,000 players & staff with time spent on formulating & coding all the various attribute weightings 
• New AI behaviour models to be coded into the game
• Bringing in female players to duplicate every player animation currently in the game & going forward to match any new animations
• Updating the text files along with translations for each supported language
• Licenses for key markets, you can probably forget about getting consumer attention for the game in the US if it's full of unlicensed properties & of course no sale possible in Germany if there is no license for the Women's Bundesliga
• Hire new coding & testing staff to put all this into place & manage it going forward

In the case of Indonesia men's league all they needed to do was have a volunteer researcher provide competition structures plus data on a few thousand players & staff then just plug it into the existing model that had been built up & tested over the previous decade or more

It's a very costly process with a high initial outlay & then the ongoing costs that need to be more than covered by the increased revenue.

Final point, FM is not a game just for boys so attempts to say that they are excluding female gamers is unfair. 

[jcw163]

43 minutes ago, Carninho said:

playing devils advocate though, its taken till page 5 to point out that a db does exist, so again it cant be that high on the radar of the people on here demanding one.

 

Yeh this is absolutely a fair point, to be honest I'm surprised that other people who might think it should be introduced into the game *aren't* aware of this, but then also I wonder how many people use the Steam Workshop for FM given the pre-existing architecture for downloading tactics\badges etc that's always been on here, as opposed to other mod-heavy games such as various RPGs or Paradox strategy efforts, with any luck the thread might drive some traffic over there.

 

34 minutes ago, Barside said:

• Licenses for key markets, you can probably forget about getting consumer attention for the game in the US if it's full of unlicensed properties & of course no sale possible in Germany if there is no license for the Women's Bundesliga

This probably the only one of these I'd give any credence to, right up until I fire up a recent Sevilla save and look forward to my vital derby with Real Hispalis ;-) The game sells in huge numbers, as mentioned I would have thought a season which ends with the World Cup in France would be a good time to try and fit it into the game, but for it to not even be on the roadmap for the next few years is, as I said earlier, pretty disappointing in my opinion.

 

35 minutes ago, Barside said:

Final point, FM is not a game just for boys so attempts to say that they are excluding female gamers is unfair. 

And the issue I take with this is not the "exclusion of female gamers", we know that SI is usually pretty good with this stuff and these forums have always been more inclusive than for example a Steam forum or the comments section of Eurogamer or wherever, but that it's a failure to adequately represent the landscape of modern football in which women's football is increasingly visible and treated increasingly seriously.

 

Lastly I'm not trying to pick a fight (hence the desperate use of winky face emoticons (I don't do emojis I'm too old)), there's a difference between thinking it should be there and crying and yelling about its absence, Football Manager has always done a good job of reflecting the landscape of modern football and I feel personally that this is something that needs to be looked into going forward.

[Crispypaul]

3 hours ago, jcw163 said:

Personally think there's absolutely no excuse for this to not be included in the game, the profile of the sport is increasing massively, as you can see simply from the increase in media coverage on news websites, via the Womens Football Show, the coverage of World Cups and Euros, the profile of players like Toni Duggan or Nikita Parris, the inclusion of Eni Aluko and Alex Scott during Russia 2018 coverage. It's an absolute no brainer and really considering there's the World Cup in France in Summer 2019 it's pretty inexcusable steps aren't already being taken, it's not the 1920s anymore, we don't need to lock women out of the stadium, we shouldn't lock them out of the game.

Yet even the top division of women's football in England only garners live attendances similar to the fifth or sixth tier.

I am not sure that Guardian and the BBC pushing women's football is anything other than an ideological pursuit rather than the women's game having commercial viability to garner that level of publicity.

[forameuss]

1 hour ago, jcw163 said:

Yeh this is absolutely a fair point, to be honest I'm surprised that other people who might think it should be introduced into the game *aren't* aware of this, but then also I wonder how many people use the Steam Workshop for FM given the pre-existing architecture for downloading tactics\badges etc that's always been on here, as opposed to other mod-heavy games such as various RPGs or Paradox strategy efforts, with any luck the thread might drive some traffic over there.

Or, probably more likely, it just doesn't interest them.  Do you honestly think that there's thousands of people out there who would be interested in, but just don't know it exists?

1 hour ago, jcw163 said:

This probably the only one of these I'd give any credence to, right up until I fire up a recent Sevilla save and look forward to my vital derby with Real Hispalis ;-) The game sells in huge numbers, as mentioned I would have thought a season which ends with the World Cup in France would be a good time to try and fit it into the game, but for it to not even be on the roadmap for the next few years is, as I said earlier, pretty disappointing in my opinion.

You lose all credibility with this.  Every single bullet-point Barside put up (who, if I'm not mistaken, used to actually work for SI, so would have far more knowledge of the code than you or I) is absolutely correct.  It doesn't matter if you "give it credence", it just sounds like you sticking your fingers in your ears because someone told you what you want isn't possible.  Your perogative of course, but doesn't make any point he said any less true.

Care to offer anything on why you're discounting the other points?

1 hour ago, jcw163 said:

And the issue I take with this is not the "exclusion of female gamers", we know that SI is usually pretty good with this stuff and these forums have always been more inclusive than for example a Steam forum or the comments section of Eurogamer or wherever, but that it's a failure to adequately represent the landscape of modern football in which women's football is increasingly visible and treated increasingly seriously.

Lastly I'm not trying to pick a fight (hence the desperate use of winky face emoticons (I don't do emojis I'm too old)), there's a difference between thinking it should be there and crying and yelling about its absence, Football Manager has always done a good job of reflecting the landscape of modern football and I feel personally that this is something that needs to be looked into going forward.

Increasingly visible, yes, but not visible enough to warrant the resources it would take to bring it in.  Why is that so hard to understand?

 

3 hours ago, jcw163 said:

Personally think there's absolutely no excuse for this to not be included in the game, the profile of the sport is increasing massively, as you can see simply from the increase in media coverage on news websites, via the Womens Football Show, the coverage of World Cups and Euros, the profile of players like Toni Duggan or Nikita Parris, the inclusion of Eni Aluko and Alex Scott during Russia 2018 coverage. It's an absolute no brainer and really considering there's the World Cup in France in Summer 2019 it's pretty inexcusable steps aren't already being taken, it's not the 1920s anymore, we don't need to lock women out of the stadium, we shouldn't lock them out of the game.

And yet, as Crispypaul says, the average attendance for the WSL is in the low 1000s.  That's considerably lower than "OMG WHAT A PUB LEAGUE" Scottish Championship (2881, 10 clubs posting an average of more than the WSL) and only slightly higher than Scottish League One (881).  They can cover it in the media all the want, but you actually have to look beyond BBC letting some stars on punditing during the World Cup (and doing a great job) or more articles and profiles on players.  It's getting better, and more people are going to watch it year on year, but it's far from being this amazing miss from the game based on attendances (a far better metric).

"Inexcusable"...deary me.

[Carninho]

IMO women's football is the current fad on TV. Sky going out of their way to use ex players to watch live matches on skysports news annoys me. I can only imagine the bidding war of Alex Scott, she must be on a good wage, ex England & Arsenal, young, very attractive, black, well presented, and good communication skills.

I think it comes from the #metoo and the big media giants after some good PR.

don't get me wrong I'd love to see the sport take off, I mean the more the merrier, I just don't think its as big as the media portray it. 

I've taken my eldest 2 kids to see Forest play numerous times and they both play football at school. Both have access to the same video games, yet my daughter has no interest in ever playing FIFA or FM (only SIMS). Or even attending a women's match. Men make and play the vast majority of games, which is why you don't see other female sports represented in the sports genre (cricket, rugby, hockey, netball) FIFA flirted with it, and the only ones I can think of would be tennis. Did the Tiger Woods franchise include pro female golfers? 

I think we are a good few years away from an official womens FM DB, and like I said above the unofficial DB has 1600 subscribers on steam, that number is higher than the amount that actually downloaded and played it, or continued to play it. Add a zero to that number and SI still wouldn't see that as big enough demand.

 

I don't think SI have a duty to create a DB, which is why I posted in this thread as it makes me laugh that people think that they should.

 

[CFuller]

26 minutes ago, Carninho said:

IMO women's football is the current fad on TV. Sky going out of their way to use ex players to watch live matches on skysports news annoys me. I can only imagine the bidding war of Alex Scott, she must be on a good wage, ex England & Arsenal, young, very attractive, black, well presented, and good communication skills.

I think it comes from the #metoo and the big media giants after some good PR.

 don't get me wrong I'd love to see the sport take off, I mean the more the merrier, I just don't think its as big as the media portray it. 

We are going a bit off-topic here now, but I'll bite. Women's football is no fad. It's got nothing to do with MeToo, Time's Up, whatever.

In England, women's football has been steadily growing in stature (and becoming more professional) for certainly the last 15 years or so. That growth has become more pronounced since the 2015 World Cup, when we finished 3rd. Alex Scott was a key player during that World Cup (and the previous two), and she is - as you suggest - a good fit for punditry, so it was no surprise that both the BBC and Sky have utilised her.

If - and that's a big if - England win next year's World Cup in France, women's football will only become even more popular and gain more respect among the wider public. That would be some going, considering we're only 20 years removed from the Women's FA Cup Final being used as comedy material by Sky's top football presenters.

Likewise, the country's leading female rugby union and cricket players have become more prominent since the England teams won their respective World Cup. Maggie Alphonsi, for instance, has been a regular rugby pundit for ITV in recent years. Wisden named three women among its five Cricketers of the Year for 2018, and Anya Shrubsole was nominated for BBC Sports Personality of the Year in 2017. Those sports are also becoming gradually more popular and more newsworthy.

Success feeds interest, especially when it comes to sports that can't match football in the popularity stakes.

26 minutes ago, Carninho said:

I've taken my eldest 2 kids to see Forest play numerous times and they both play football at school. Both have access to the same video games, yet my daughter has no interest in ever playing FIFA or FM (only SIMS). Or even attending a women's match. Men make and play the vast majority of games, which is why you don't see other female sports represented in the sports genre (cricket, rugby, hockey, netball) FIFA flirted with it, and the only ones I can think of would be tennis. Did the Tiger Woods franchise include pro female golfers? 

Ashes Cricket, which was released last year, included the England and Australia women's teams if I remember correctly.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, forameuss said:

You lose all credibility with this.  Every single bullet-point Barside put up (who, if I'm not mistaken, used to actually work for SI, so would have far more knowledge of the code than you or I) is absolutely correct.  It doesn't matter if you "give it credence", it just sounds like you sticking your fingers in your ears because someone told you what you want isn't possible.  Your perogative of course, but doesn't make any point he said any less true.

To avoid any confusion I was part of the testing team, not the coding team & just to remove any doubt or inferences that others may draw my post is based on my own opinion & not that of anyone at SI.

[Carninho]

3 minutes ago, CFuller said:

We are going a bit off-topic here now, but I'll bite. Women's football is no fad. It's got nothing to do with MeToo, Time's Up, whatever.

In England, women's football has been steadily growing in stature (and becoming more professional) for certainly the last 15 years or so. That growth has become more pronounced since the 2015 World Cup, when we finished 3rd. Alex Scott was a key player during that World Cup (and the previous two), and she is - as you suggest - a good fit for punditry, so it was no surprise that both the BBC and Sky have utilised her.

If - and that's a big if - England win next year's World Cup in France, women's football will only become even more popular and gain more respect among the wider public. That would be some going, considering we're only 20 years removed from the Women's FA Cup Final being used as comedy material by Sky's top football presenters.

Likewise, the country's leading female rugby union and cricket players have become more prominent since the England teams won their respective World Cup. Maggie Alphonsi, for instance, has been a regular rugby pundit for ITV in recent years. Wisden named three women among its five Cricketers of the Year for 2018, and Anya Shrubsole was nominated for BBC Sports Personality of the Year in 2017. Those sports are also becoming gradually more popular and more newsworthy.

Success feeds interest, especially when it comes to sports that can't match football in the popularity stakes.

Ashes Cricket, which was released last year, included the England and Australia women's teams if I remember correctly.

I don't think women's football is a fad, just the sudden use of them as pundits. Skysports use a female every day covering the live games (except on soccer saturday). I think I saw 4 different faces on sky this week.

now you cant say that they are suddenly all experts at mens football over the ex male players which they employ to cover the games. Sky must be going out of their way to employ them because they are female.

Yes its great to have a female voice when its justified, same a male. but fast tracking them smells of a PR stunt IMO. 

All the sports on Sky have a female involved (and quite right too) but my point (all be it a minor one that I didn't need to say on here) was that increased presence doesn't correlate with the actual facts of a huge increase in women's football. What you could say is that Sky are attempting to drive the interest and awareness by raising the profile of the game, but they don't broadcast any of their games do they? 

I ask this as a serious question (not wanting to be a ****) One thing I don't understand is where the money comes from, there is no way that these teams are anywhere near self-sufficient. I assume that clubs like Man City run them at a loss? so I guess they come under the community budget at the club? I know that clubs dropped their ladies teams as they couldn't afford them when they were amateur and weren't paying wages, and I doubt the WSL generates that much income?

 

 

[Haiku]

I don't want in. I'm not interested in women's football.

[themadsheep2001]

5 hours ago, Carninho said:

I don't think women's football is a fad, just the sudden use of them as pundits. Skysports use a female every day covering the live games (except on soccer saturday). I think I saw 4 different faces on sky this week.

now you cant say that they are suddenly all experts at mens football over the ex male players which they employ to cover the games. Sky must be going out of their way to employ them because they are female.

Yes its great to have a female voice when its justified, same a male. but fast tracking them smells of a PR stunt IMO. 

All the sports on Sky have a female involved (and quite right too) but my point (all be it a minor one that I didn't need to say on here) was that increased presence doesn't correlate with the actual facts of a huge increase in women's football. What you could say is that Sky are attempting to drive the interest and awareness by raising the profile of the game, but they don't broadcast any of their games do they? 

I ask this as a serious question (not wanting to be a ****) One thing I don't understand is where the money comes from, there is no way that these teams are anywhere near self-sufficient. I assume that clubs like Man City run them at a loss? so I guess they come under the community budget at the club? I know that clubs dropped their ladies teams as they couldn't afford them when they were amateur and weren't paying wages, and I doubt the WSL generates that much income?

 

 

As someone who works as a producer in sports industry, quite frankly this is one of the more ridiculous things said about it. 

You have no idea what you're talking about, or how my industry works. You think people have time to fast track people?! The reason they are breaking through is because its actually harder for them (which it shouldn't be) so they work twice as hard as men just to get noticed, which means when they break through, they are simply better. Take Alex Scott. She simply knew more than almost any other pundit at the World Cup, because she knew she would be judged more harshly, so she turned far more prepared than the rest, which is why she completely outmatched her fellow pundits time and again.

You don't need to be male to understand the male game, or be an expert in it. Most male ex pro's are awful pundits. 

The reason you're seeing more is because the industry is getting better at not dismissing them because they are women.

PR stunt my foot

 

/end rant

[Carninho]

Scott was good but nobody outmatched anyone else, so that's exaggerated. And yeah you don't need to be male to understand the game, but this is going way off topic now. 

I share the same views as the women who I talk to this about so that's good enough for me (in fact they have stronger views than me!), obvs I don't know the ins and outs of skys recruitment, but all I can go on is my perception.

Like you say a lot of explayers aren't great pundits, which is why I think the female explayers have been fast tracked. Of the hundreds upon hundreds of ex pros leaving the game each year only dozens will be female so the ratio's don't tally up for me. Only the best should be in the position. Surely quality over quantity, Alex Scott is on par with her counterparts but the others used on skysports news of an evening aren't up to it YET. So why introduce so many new faces at once? From what I see of skys recruitment for that specific role in the past you need to just be a famous face, talent is secondary. Lets be honest the ex female players arent household names. And I don't think their talent is over and above. You have the match reporters like Bianca Westwood and Michelle Owen who are key personnel but they don't sit in the studio watching the match as they haven't played the game. Sky like ex pros for that. So my question is why pick 3 or 4 female explayers all of a sudden to report on the men's matches? 

[oulzac]

40 minutes ago, Carninho said:

Scott was good but nobody outmatched anyone else, so that's exaggerated. And yeah you don't need to be male to understand the game, but this is going way off topic now. 

I share the same views as the women who I talk to this about so that's good enough for me (in fact they have stronger views than me!), obvs I don't know the ins and outs of skys recruitment, but all I can go on is my perception.

Like you say a lot of explayers aren't great pundits, which is why I think the female explayers have been fast tracked. Of the hundreds upon hundreds of ex pros leaving the game each year only dozens will be female so the ratio's don't tally up for me. Only the best should be in the position. Surely quality over quantity, Alex Scott is on par with her counterparts but the others used on skysports news of an evening aren't up to it YET. So why introduce so many new faces at once? From what I see of skys recruitment for that specific role in the past you need to just be a famous face, talent is secondary. Lets be honest the ex female players arent household names. And I don't think their talent is over and above. You have the match reporters like Bianca Westwood and Michelle Owen who are key personnel but they don't sit in the studio watching the match as they haven't played the game. Sky like ex pros for that. So my question is why pick 3 or 4 female explayers all of a sudden to report on the men's matches? 

Why does it bother you so much? Why does it diminish your enjoyment? Why is this affecting your life so much? It seems to me the people who are against this have issues with women in general.

[HawkAussie]

20 hours ago, jcw163 said:

Someone did make one though - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1315662285

And yeh it was a joke about when women's football got banned by the FA in 1921 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_football_in_England#Banning,_decline_and_reappearance

 

I don't buy the commercial argument at all, it's a total cop out, "ooh it's not commercially viable, anyway this year we've got the Indonesian second division" - Yeh bet that's driving sales ;-)

There is a Version 4 of that which got release last night. In terms of this topic, I do feel like that their should be an option for women's football but let the community create that.

[Carninho]

11 hours ago, oulzac said:

Why does it bother you so much? Why does it diminish your enjoyment? Why is this affecting your life so much? It seems to me the people who are against this have issues with women in general.

Yes it does diminish my enjoyment as the persons (MALE OR FEMALE!!) job role is to entertain me. That's the point. As for your other comment 

[GerdMuller]

I think people that think they have to defend womens issues everwhere and think women  are treated unfairly and treated like people of lesser degree, when they keep searching for the slightest hint of it and jump on it, have an issue with women in general. :-D "Why does it bother you so much, why does it diminish your enjoyment so much?" are the right qustions to ask why FM should actually take on something that doesnt make sense in the general setup of the game and has no financial viability at all. 

 

BTW being a sports oderator or moderator alone is not really a sign of quality , no matter what sex. But it seems to be a trend to be sex specific too, just look at US Tv and their good looking , less interesting women especially in sports TV. Its sad to say but there are lots of "modern" sports show with male sports "experts" that have no clue either but are allowed to talk all the time while a smiling extremely good looking bimbo is allowed to sit in the middle and sadly but truly smile fpr 15 minutes and say hello, goodbye and how is your day. sprinkled with a question near the topic every 3 broadcasts to make it not that obvious. So i think in Europe while it may be forced atm maybe too, we also have come a long way and really have ome decent feamle media sports commentators, too.  And when they deserve to be there today its because they had to earn it really in some way. 

Perhaps its the same with females in sports games, i dont doubt a time will come where it will make sense and we can play real sports heros their. Making an FM out of pity for women and their sport that in all development is still far from the general status male football has and its massive business is just that, and for SI would be a financial disaster.

To want it is still ok though, and we wanted more and mre licences for long in FM and gotten them too. And when someone before really wanted more before he had a decent editor to show how great everthing could be and make interest in it more and more.

 

Womens football in FM ..do  i want it...NO. Its a different topic for me for a game, it belongs in a different game which i will never buy.  Its like a game specifically about Bulgarian warfare when i am interested specifically in Roman warfare of the Republic. Why include it in this game? Its far fetched. The other thing is for another niche game nad when there are enough customers really it should be done for the market.I a no part of that market, and if resources of FM would be wasted on somehting like this i would be less involved in this market as customer too.

[mightypvfc]

The numbers just aren't there at the minute to justify including women's football. I'd have no problem with it being in future FM games, in fact I'd absolutely want it included in future FM games, but I don't think it's popular enough right now. 

[forameuss]

Leave completely aside whether they're male or female (as some people seem incapable of doing), and purely judge them on the role they're actually doing.  For the most part, the women who were punditing at the World Cup seemed to either just know their stuff, or - shock! - they actually did the research prior to going on TV so they could talk about things and impart opinions from a position of knowledge.

Contrast that with a lot of high-profile pundits, who impart nothing, and at times seem to revel in their ignorance.  "You see the thing is, Clive, we just don't know anything about these players, do we?"  Ho ho ho. Chuckle chuckle chuckle.  Aren't we all just lads?  It's really quite sad that someone doing their job properly seems exciting and new, but even sadder when someone does it, but that benefit is hidden behind the "phwoar, she a lady" stuff.

Put the best qualified people in any role, doesn't matter if you're a woman, a man, a dog, or a sentient gammon steak.  Maybe one day we'll reach that.

[Smurf]

21 hours ago, mightypvfc said:

The numbers just aren't there at the minute to justify including women's football. I'd have no problem with it being in future FM games, in fact I'd absolutely want it included in future FM games, but I don't think it's popular enough right now. 

What are the numbers?

[Guest]

Does the thread really need to get back on that merry-go-round?

[jcw163]

Edited to remove me being snarky, cos really what's the point.

[mightypvfc]

2 hours ago, Smurf said:

What are the numbers?

I was talking about attendances. Last season, Man City only managed to attract a crowd of 2,876 for a Champions League Semi. That was a thousand up from their previous game. I don't have the figures for the games broadcast live on TV but I imagine they won't be great. 

[Smurf]

37 minutes ago, mightypvfc said:

I was talking about attendances. Last season, Man City only managed to attract a crowd of 2,876 for a Champions League Semi. That was a thousand up from their previous game. I don't have the figures for the games broadcast live on TV but I imagine they won't be great. 

Attendances have also risen every year for the FA Cup final, something which has no doubt been aided by the move to England's premier Stadium, Wembley, in 2015: 

2013: 4,988 (held at the Keepmoat stadium Doncaster)

2014: 15,098 (Stadium MK Milton Keynes)

2015: 30,710 (Wembley)

2016: 32,912 (Wembley)

2017: 35,271 (Wembley)

2018: 45,423 (Wembley)

Attendances doubled from 2014 to 2015 when moved to Wembley and enoyed a 47.91% increase since. 

 

And as discussed earlier - if the only reason not to include something is the attendances, then we can get rid of the lower leagues were the attendances are below 4000.

 

http://www.thefa.com/news/2018/may/06/sue-campbell-womens-fa-cup-record-060518

 

Football is for everyone. 

 

Stats from 2015

Women’s football in numbers

1: Football is the No1 female team sport in England 

6: England’s world ranking

7: Number of England Women’s teams

18: Teams in The FA WSL

25: Female A Licence coaches

96: Teams in The FA Women’s Premier League

259: Entries in The FA Women’s Cup

927: Qualified female referees

3,756: Players in the England Talent Pathway

8,000: Young football fans attended FA Girls’ Football Festivals and Fanzones

35,000: Qualified female coaches

45,619: Record crowd at an England Women’s match

86,000: Total attendances at FA WSL matches last season

1.3m: TV viewers for the 2014 FA Women’s Cup Final between Arsenal and Everton.

source: http://www.thefa.com/news/2015/mar/08/international-womens-day-womens-football-in-numbers

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Smurf said:

And as discussed earlier - if the only reason not to include something is the attendances, then we can get rid of the lower leagues were the attendances are below 4000.

Not the same thing though, is it?

[Smurf]

The Women’s FA Cup Final attracted a peak audience of nearly two million viewers last weekend.

Chelsea beat Notts County last Saturday in front of a record 30,710 crowd in the first-ever final at Wembley.

There has been a surge of interest in the women’s game, with 1.99m tuning in at the weekend, following England’s brilliant run to the World Cup semi-finals in Canada earlier this summer.

The figures represent a 51 per cent increase on last year’s  peak of 1.32m, where just over 15,000 fans turned up to Stadium MK to see Arsenal defeat Everton 2-0.

South Korea striker Ji So-Yun, known as the 'Korean Messi' scored the only goal of the game as Chelsea won the Cup for the first time, defeating Notts County.

Chelsea manager Emma Hayes said after the game: "I believe that the quality we show on the pitch is deserving of being inside a top men’s club."

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/womens-fa-cup-final-attracts-record-television-audience-10437745.html

[Smurf]

2 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Not the same thing though, is it?

The only difference is their gender.

[HUNT3R]

3 minutes ago, Smurf said:

The only difference is their gender.

No, it clearly isn't though. There's a lot more involved here. Most of which has already been mentioned, so Barside was right to question why we're going round in circles.

[Crispypaul]

15 minutes ago, Smurf said:

The only difference is their gender.

Rather than demanding a commercial company do what you want them to do - how about going about creating a women's football management game yourself?

[Guest]

Merry-go-round fully engaged.  

[Smurf]

Clearly it's not going to be included any time soon. 

Yes we do end up going around in circles. Same questions asked and answered many times over. 

Yet nobody has given any concrete reason, in my opinion, as to why it shouldn't be included. 

There's nations included that don't get attendances of 500 at games, that you can manage, and have very little nationality players represented in the game. 

 

Former players have gone on to manage women's teams, and yet there won't be a single news article around stating a former player has retired and gone on to manage in the women's football. 

I find it hard to believe this day and age the game is not inclusive of women in football.

[Guest]

Take it up directly with Miles, when all is said & done it's his decision. We're just trying to apply a rationale to that decision.

[Carninho]

as JCW163 pointed out above, a DB does exist 

For the players that want a womens DB, get involved it that and show your encouragement to the creator(s)

I'm genuinely convinced SI would take notice if that DB gains some traction, but the subscriber numbers need to seriously increase and I mean by 100 times

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1315662285

[Smurf]

5 minutes ago, Crispypaul said:

Rather than demanding a commercial company do what you want them to do - how about going about creating a women's football management game yourself?

Can we keep the conversation civil please?

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Smurf said:

Clearly it's not going to be included any time soon. 

Yes we do end up going around in circles. Same questions asked and answered many times over. 

Yet nobody has given any concrete reason, in my opinion, as to why it shouldn't be included. 

There's nations included that don't get attendances of 500 at games, that you can manage, and have very little nationality players represented in the game. 

 

Former players have gone on to manage women's teams, and yet there won't be a single news article around stating a former player has retired and gone on to manage in the women's football. 

I find it hard to believe this day and age the game is not inclusive of women in football.

I'll ask 1 question before answering.

How do that stats in the womens game compare to the mens? 

[Smurf]

2 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I'll ask 1 question before answering.

How do that stats in the womens game compare to the mens? 

 The biggest domestic TV audience for 2016-2017 was the quarter-final fixture between Chelsea v Manchester United which got a peak of 7.74m viewers (not worldwide figuers which was 88.8m)

However, the women's final did get a tv viewership of almost 2m. 

Yes the viewership is lower womens football in England compared to the mens. But I don't have access to worldwide stats. I can only google them.

 

I have previously posted links to reports where it shows an ever increasing number of viewers in football for womens football. Granted it's not at where the mens game is, but does it have to be on par with it to finally get into the game? 

 

At what point does it get included, when the viewers are the same? When attendances are the same? Or do to womens have to hit a 50% mark where the attendances are half of what mens games are before its considered.

 

Genuinely asking - what's the threshold for it to be looked at? 

And going by the current trend, it's only increasing, so will we see enough of a rise in FM20 FM21 FM22 for it to be included. 

 

Why can't the building blocks start now? It's not going anywhere, well it is, it's going up, it's not going away. 

 

I'm not saying it will be the most amazing thing to add to the game - but it would make it inclusive - and make people aware who are playing Football Manager that the womens game is prevalent and it could have a positive impact on the womens game. 

 

[Carninho]

@Smurf have you played the DB on steam? 

or has anyone on this thread?

[HUNT3R]

8 minutes ago, Smurf said:

 The biggest domestic TV audience for 2016-2017 was the quarter-final fixture between Chelsea v Manchester United which got a peak of 7.74m viewers (not worldwide figuers which was 88.8m)

However, the women's final did get a tv viewership of almost 2m. 

Yes the viewership is lower womens football in England compared to the mens. But I don't have access to worldwide stats. I can only google them.

 

I have previously posted links to reports where it shows an ever increasing number of viewers in football for womens football. Granted it's not at where the mens game is, but does it have to be on par with it to finally get into the game? 

 

At what point does it get included, when the viewers are the same? When attendances are the same? Or do to womens have to hit a 50% mark where the attendances are half of what mens games are before its considered.

 

Genuinely asking - what's the threshold for it to be looked at? 

And going by the current trend, it's only increasing, so will we see enough of a rise in FM20 FM21 FM22 for it to be included. 

 

Why can't the building blocks start now? It's not going anywhere, well it is, it's going up, it's not going away. 

 

I'm not saying it will be the most amazing thing to add to the game - but it would make it inclusive - and make people aware who are playing Football Manager that the womens game is prevalent and it could have a positive impact on the womens game. 

 

I wasn't asking about attendances or viewerships. I'm asking about stats. Goals, corners, passes, etc. I'm sure you know the comparison.