Knap FM 18 Beta tactics

[knap]

I always use AM and stated in OP NO OIs.

When the full game is here this is the testing that gets carried out

MR L

First of all, let us talk about the database we use for testing. I have made the database myself, and I want to explain the reasons behind the choices I have made here.

1. There are two divisions in the database. The reason for having two divisions is that it helps AI managers from getting fired in the test league.

2. We have made a test template savefile, so that each test gets the same schedule. This also guarantees that everything in the test is 100% equal for all tactics tested (No room for human error).

3. The test league consists of 46 teams, ranging from the likes of Barcelona, Real Madrid and Bayern to Los Angeles, Rosenborg and Basel.

4. We have two test teams in our league, one with CA120 players and one with CA145 players. 
   These players are real players with adjusted CA (Current Ability). There are enough players in both test teams to fill 8+ first teams, so that every tactic we test has access to the right type of players for that tactic.

5. Training is set to Balanced, and Match preparation is set to "Tactics Only".

6. We use the opposition instructions the tactic creator has specified.

7. All tactics are tested in a plug and play manner. This means that some of the tactics we test could perform better/worse if you follow the instructions from the creator. For example, we do not test home/away tactic sets, or tactics that are based on changing the approach during matches. We only test standalone tactics. Neither do we set manual marking.

Changes in the editor:

• Removed all injuries
• Removed all loans
• Removed all bans
• Removed all media stuff
• Occurrence ratio for all injuries set to 0.000001
• Removed every other competition, team and person in the whole world to increase testing speed
• Removed the need to register players in the league
• Added Transfer Embargo for all clubs
• Modified all players in the league to have 10 in "Important Matches"
• Modified all players in the league to have 20 in "Loyalty"
• Modified all players in the league to have 20 in "Professionalism"
• Modified all players in the league to have 20 in "Adaptability"
• Modified all players in the league to have 20 in "Consistency"
• Modified all players in the league to have 1 in "Injury Proneness"
• All staff in the two test teams have 200 Current Ability
• Removed all PPM's (Player Preferred Moves) for all players in the two test teams.
• Added the German language on all players (so that they can understand each other)
• Made all players retire after season, to avoid unhappiness
• Set all players nationality to the same as the league to avoid homesickness/unhappiness
• Set test teams' "Tactical Attributes" to 10
• Set test teams' reputation to match their expected position in the league.

To sum up the database, it's a custom league with real teams and real players from all over Europe, sort of like Champions League in a normal league setup. The reason I have used real players and real teams is that I want it to resemble a personal save as much as possible, but with added test accuracy (the changes in some player attributes).

Now, onto the testing method. Over the years, I have used every single test method possible, and learnt from my experiences every year. To me, the most important thing about a test league is the ratio of accuracy:time. This means that we must look at the bigger picture rather than simply trying to maximize accuracy for every single match. Every tester knows that testing a tactic for 50 matches is not enough, as the results would vary too much between every test. This is due to the random factors in the game that are unremovable. The only way to increase accuracy in this regard is thus to increase the number of matches played. Think of it like rolling a dice 10 times vs 10.000 times. If you roll a dice 10 times you could be lucky/unlucky, but if you roll it 10.000 times the luck part is gone. This is how casinoes make money!

Onto another problem in most other tactic tests. Due to time limitations, many testers use "instant result" or "simulate match" to test tactics. This is a problem, because the assistant manager often changes the tactic during match (around 30% of the time). We have made a system which uses neither, but that can test tactics in the same amount of time and without the assistant manager interfering with the tactic.

For a long time, we tested manually with this setup, but now, our programmer Luigi has written a software which tests tactics for us automatically, with its own dedicated computer. This has made it possible for us to keep testing tactics even when we have busy workdays etc.

Here is some information about how the software works:

We put the tactic file and a spreadsheet including OI's for that tactic into a google disk folder. The software has auto-search for new files in this folder. If there is a new tactic here, it loads the savegame, loads the chosen tactic from the google disk folder, maximizes the familiarity with the in-game Editor, sets OI's (from the spreadsheet), changes manager, does the same thing for the other test team, starts FM Fitness Coach, loads the list of teams, starts freezing, and then it starts testing. When it is done testing, it saves the game, exports the league table from the game and publishes the results automatically to our site (makes thread, adding test values etc.) 
We do not wish to discuss the software in more detail than this, due to it being core to our website's function.

[Pompeyboyz]

So, I have run a bunch of independent tests using the same base save game to limit the variations as much as possible. 

The base save is using Portsmouth.  They are a team expected to finish mid table but have a squad that can have realistic possibilities of playoff.  They have one of the best SC/AM in the division(based upon CA) in Brett Pitman as well as one of the best GK in the division.  The rest of the team is ok. 

From the same starting point the only variables outside of control is AI transfers and injuries, plus team selection.

I have put the tactics through a single season holiday to see how they come out.  Below are the findings. Your mileage may vary as human input will effect.

GOODBYE 343

 

THE TACTIC WITH NO NAME 4321

 

BLUE MATTER 433

 

 

WARPIGS 42312 Narrow Diamond

 

 

GOODBYE 3412

 

P16 W2 D4 L10 F11 A23

 

 Sacked while in 24^th Place

 

GOODBYE 3430

 

 

FM 17 WB Version

 

 

GOODBYE BARCELONA 4231

 

 

 

THE TACTIC WITH NO NAME 4231

 

P35 W10 D12 L13 F51 A48

 

 Sacked while in 16^th Place

 

MIDSOMMER 442

 

[knap]

GOODBYE was the top tactic in last years testing

[Pompeyboyz]

The ones with no screenshots were where the tactic effectively failed and I was sacked. 

[knap]

Pompeyboyz

You have no interest in these tactics, so I have no idea why you are posting

[Pompeyboyz]

1 minute ago, knap said:

Pompeyboyz

You have no interest in these tactics, so I have no idea why you are posting

I have actually provided a little more detail for people to see how they work.

I can take away the assistance if you like. 

[knap]

It is of no assistance to me as it has no meaning.

[Pompeyboyz]

why is it of no meaning?

I tested each tactic under the same conditions using a middle of the road team and provided feedback on what happens?

If that has no meaning or use to any people that might want to use your tactic playing with a team in league 1 or league 2 then explain what has meaning to you?

[knap]

Please read how to test tactics.

[Pompeyboyz]

Just now, knap said:

Please read how to test tactics.

Which is an artificial environment.

I used a real world environment which the users of the tactics will face. 

[brigzi]

at the moment any type of testing can be useful

[knap]

This is a test designed by TFF controlling the variables. The underdog teams are the worst in league playing against the best teams. To test properly you need to control the variables otherwise you are just wasting your time.

[Pompeyboyz]

But that means you are testing within an artificial environment which is not how the game is played. 

By controlling the variables, you are setting a precedence to unrealistic results. 

But in using the test bed I have used, there will be variables in place which will impact the outcome.  With these outcomes, you can view what can happen. 

If you are going to produce tactics, you need to test them in the same environment that your users will play it in otherwise you are not providing a true result. 

After my testing, I am not saying that your tactics are rubbish as most did very well, but they were tested under an umbrella to provide a much truer value of their capabilities.  In fact, I would say the biggest drawback that shows mostly is defensive frailty. Which I would actually expect under the testing due to the teams defence not being great. As a player, I would address that by buying or loaning in better players. But under the consistent testing, I could not do that.  

[Nuno Dias]

8 minutes ago, knap said:

This is a test designed by TFF controlling the variables. The underdog teams are the worst in league playing against the best teams. To test properly you need to control the variables otherwise you are just wasting your time.

I personally don't care how or why, don't even care if it has a lot of info or almost none at all, what i know is that since FM 16 came to life i never could make anything that worked with ANY kind of consistency, so the game i loved the most in my life was dying for me (started way back in the start of the series), and after finding Knap's tactics for FM17, i not only started to get consistency, i liked to see my team playing on the field, even when i didn't win at least they didn't look like a bunch of ******* running around on a cornfield...LOL

The 343 goodbye made "my" Arsenal (just because i can't stand Wenger) look like they were Barcelona a few years ago, my love for the game was allways there, but this tactics gave me back my fun, so Knap, just keep them coming, and thank you very much for the much needed help.

[knap]

The point is that the game is influenced by many factors that have nothing whatsoever to do with the actual tactic performance. What you done is just thrown many factors into a pot and ended up with no conclusion on how the tactic performs.

It you like the tactics use them if not don't 

What would be interesting is for you to post your tactic, so I can see where you are coming from. 

[edwardhck73]

21 hours ago, Heywood JaBlowme said:

knap's tactics are the best. Just because he mainly tests them with top clubs doesn't mean they won't work with LL clubs. I used Warpigs FM17 exclusively with a SerieC/B club and gained promotion. If you question his tactics for LL clubs then don't use them.

 

i won PL in first season for middlesbrough and sunderland  with 3430

If you question his tactics for LL clubs then don't use them.

[knap]

I always test in LL as well, always have done since FM08 taking Oxford to the top of PL.

[cr_7]

Knapp you sir are a legend! Cannot wait to get started with these after work

[Guest]

Knap you on Discord?

[knap]

No - I am a bit of a Luddite.

[Piaz88]

tested goodbye 343 with liverpool for a full season on holiday mode

worked quiet well

good job knap!

[knap]

I would be happy with that as an intense tactic. 100pts 100 goals and solid defence move over Klopp

[Piaz88]

11 minutes ago, knap said:

I would be happy with that as an intense tactic. 100pts 100 goals and solid defence move over Klopp

yeah matchengine will probably get fixed and this will stop working so nicely but right now i have fun with it in my save

[AFCB08]

15 minutes ago, Piaz88 said:

tested goodbye 343 with liverpool for a full season on holiday mode

worked quiet well

good job knap!

Nothing to get excited about about this as not a proper test. Like what Knap said it’s not a test done on TFF testing database. So this is irrelevant 

[Piaz88]

your right but this doesnt mean its irrelevant.

i may have been very lucky there and it would be hard 2 produce this season again but it still shows how good this tactic is.

i tested meany  other tactics with this (inaccurate) method but no one was even close 2 this. 

try the tactic yourself and you will find out what i mean

[AFCB08]

7 minutes ago, Piaz88 said:

your right but this doesnt mean its irrelevant.

i may have been very lucky there and it would be hard 2 produce this season again but it still shows how good this tactic is.

i tested meany  other tactics with this (inaccurate) method but no one was even close 2 this. 

try the tactic yourself and you will find out what i mean

I was only say in similar words what the creator of the tactic said to someone else (pompeyboz) who tested the tactic himself too by saying it has no meaning because not done in TFF testing database, so yes makes your test have no meaning. Don’t shot the messenger, tactic creators words not mine. 

[Karnack]

Blue Matter is working like a charm. Thank you!

[Piaz88]

1 minute ago, AFCB08 said:

I was only say in similar words what the creator of the tactic said to someone else (pompeyboz) who tested the tactic himself too by saying it has no meaning because not done in TFF testing database, so yes makes your test have no meaning. Don’t shot the messenger, tactic creators words not mine. 

 

never tried 2 shot anyone.

Dunno why you´ve got offended by my post but if this was the case im sorry. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, knap said:

No - I am a bit of a Luddite.

 

Ah fair enough there's been quite an interesting tactic posted on FMKorea 

 

I've attached it here but I think it's something you'd like to see. Really high in possession and decent defence, but asymmetrical in roles.

433 C.tac

[knap]

I never know the Authors from Korea. or China. Usually Stephen Hong Kong has some cracking tactics.

Similar to the my 451 but with RMD. The AI often use a pushed up FB on one side, so could be exploiting the space left behind.

[knap]

Being a bit of a Luddite. Zyndar set up a testing league last year that removed the bloat and reduced injuries to 0.0000001.

Anyone know whether this can be done in FMT, as this looks best option for testing.

[AFCB08]

1 hour ago, Piaz88 said:

never tried 2 shot anyone.

Dunno why you´ve got offended by my post but if this was the case im sorry. 

Not offended in any way. Just sayin the same things as others. 

[Heywood JaBlowme]

6 minutes ago, knap said:

Being a bit of a Luddite. Zyndar set up a testing league last year that removed the bloat and reduced injuries to 0.0000001.

Anyone know whether this can be done in FMT, as this looks best option for testing.

This is the ONLY reason I use the full version & the In Game Editor, to remove injuries. If that's cheating then so be it.  So far, injuries are even worse this year with both FM & FMT, simply out of control. I don't want to micromanage everything. let my Ass Man do the training. I wish they would develop an In Game Editor for FMT. 

[knap]

If you holiday with a top side like Lpool you can cover injuries with a large squad and the requiredroles. If you try a 3 striker tactic with Spurs and Kane gets injured you will be snookered and the results not reflective of  the tactic . You have to know what is going on and why before drawing any conclusion or the results a waste of time.

[dunner]

If I may ask a question and I don't want this to come across as rude or ungrateful but why is the vast majority of the tactics on this particular forum coming from you knap? Lol

 

[knap]

I started with this site and remained loyal, rather than go to more download orientated sites. 

FM Base is mostly downloads with no discussion. A lot of downloads are from Korea at China. 

A lot of people prefer their own tactics and I only post tactics if they help people enjoy the game.

STEAM also has lots of downloads.

[macca72]

4 hours ago, Pompeyboyz said:

Which is an artificial environment.

I used a real world environment which the users of the tactics will face. 

Amazing that you continue this, but I'll point out the flaw anyway.

You're basically saying that the only factor in those results is the tactic, which is so wrong it's unreal.

4 hours ago, Pompeyboyz said:

The ones with no screenshots were where the tactic effectively failed and I was sacked. 

By your own presentation Portsmouth have one of the best ST in the division, so suppose in one of your scenarios he gets injured and doesn't play. Clearly in "real world" the manager does something to rectify or address this (signings / loans).

The test you present as "real world" fails in exactly the same way you are pointing out other testing fails, you're removing the manager actions to the same degree, which makes your test equally pointless.

[Pompeyboyz]

2 minutes ago, macca72 said:

By your own presentation Portsmouth have one of the best ST in the division, so suppose in one of your scenarios he gets injured and doesn't play. Clearly in "real world" the manager does something to rectify or address this (signings / loans).

Just to throw back your point on that specific situation.  

If the star SC is injured outside of a transfer window, aside from a free transfer(who is unlikely to be as good), there is little chance to replace and so must reply on your existing squad.  A real world environment.  

By setting the injuries to negligible, the TFF does not take this into account and expects a perfect scenario. 

By providing the testing I have done, I have provided decent evidence that Knap's tactics are sound.  Out of the 10 tactics I tested, 7 came out with better than (board) expectations with 1 coming in as expected and 2 I would class as failing.  A 70% success rate is pretty damn good.

Now if you, knap or anyone else want to say my testing and actual positive feedback since is pointless and irrelevant then so be it.  But others may find it useful.

My biggest critique now is with the artificial environment I see used as it will not transpire to what the users will see in their games due to the variables present in my testing. 

[macca72]

3 minutes ago, Pompeyboyz said:

Just to throw back your point on that specific situation.  

If the star SC is injured outside of a transfer window, aside from a free transfer(who is unlikely to be as good), there is little chance to replace and so must reply on your existing squad.  A real world environment.  

By setting the injuries to negligible, the TFF does not take this into account and expects a perfect scenario. 

By providing the testing I have done, I have provided decent evidence that Knap's tactics are sound.  Out of the 10 tactics I tested, 7 came out with better than (board) expectations with 1 coming in as expected and 2 I would class as failing.  A 70% success rate is pretty damn good.

Now if you, knap or anyone else want to say my testing and actual positive feedback since is pointless and irrelevant then so be it.  But others may find it useful.

My biggest critique now is with the artificial environment I see used as it will not transpire to what the users will see in their games due to the variables present in my testing. 

The lack of manager intervention makes it as pointless as the original point you made re: testing environments. Either way it has little to do with this thread. 

Fact is the "failures" you point out are not solely down to the tactic, which means presenting it on this thread as helpful information, makes it irrelevant not helpful.

I suggest we agree to disagree - I shouldn't have replied in the first place, it just confuses me as to why people feel the need to join a thread to do nothing but cause problems - for absolutely no reason I can see whatsoever.

[Pompeyboyz]

6 minutes ago, macca72 said:

The lack of manager intervention makes it as pointless as the original point you made re: testing environments. Either way it has little to do with this thread. 

 

5 hours ago, knap said:

For a long time, we tested manually with this setup, but now, our programmer Luigi has written a software which tests tactics for us automatically, with its own dedicated computer. This has made it possible for us to keep testing tactics even when we have busy workdays etc.

Here is some information about how the software works:

We put the tactic file and a spreadsheet including OI's for that tactic into a google disk folder. The software has auto-search for new files in this folder. If there is a new tactic here, it loads the savegame, loads the chosen tactic from the google disk folder, maximizes the familiarity with the in-game Editor, sets OI's (from the spreadsheet), changes manager, does the same thing for the other test team, starts FM Fitness Coach, loads the list of teams, starts freezing, and then it starts testing. When it is done testing, it saves the game, exports the league table from the game and publishes the results automatically to our site (makes thread, adding test values etc.) 
We do not wish to discuss the software in more detail than this, due to it being core to our website's function.

I believe the TFF lack manager interaction too.

[elkaco]

Thank you @knap for posting tactics for FM18. My tactics have been horrible, with both Spurs and City.

[macca72]

I think you're missing the point

You and I both start a save as Portsmouth, we both make our own tactic.

The star striker plays 35 games for you gets boatloads of goals and you finish 3rd. Star striker for me gets injured and plays 5 games all year and I finish 7th. 

We start again and both get exactly the same in game scenario, injuries, suspensions etc identical. You finish 3rd again and I finish 1st, best tactic now?

The only way to test tactics against one another is to remove all other variables that can impact.

[eye-switcher]

Pompeyboyz , do you know what tactic that had the best away results?

[Pompeyboyz]

20 minutes ago, eye-switcher said:

Pompeyboyz , do you know what tactic that had the best away results?

In my test it was Goodbye Barcelona

[eye-switcher]

ok thanks

[tremor]

With respect to the LL results I've been running the 3430 as my main tactic since just before Christmas with Wimbledon. I was mid table going into the Christmas period when I loaned an extra SS for the squad. Since then I've been on a 22 game unbeaten run and finished 4th. Got the play offs to run this evening. 

The tactic has been immense, definitely problems against the deep crosses but super solid. Lots of away draws though. I have been using the 433 if chasing the game in the second half though. 

This is with a team expected to finish 20th and full of league 2 players. Definitely solid as an underdog tactic

[Piaz88]

Hey knap could you do a tactic that fits an old squad?

Wanna create a team with good foorballers who are a little bit older like schweinsteiger.

[knap]

I still play the 1st season in LL with older players as they are already at club, so I would still use the usual tactic. You may need to consider subbing more in late stages of game of using a SUS tactic more often to kill games.

Many years ago there was a player that was available on a free and was aged 37 (Swedish) and still had a few good years climbing the leagues.

If they don't work then can you send me your save once you have your squad together, and I will have a look at making some tweaks.

[Robioto]

Started a save with Man United with the GOODBYE 343 tactic, it's devastatingly effective, it alsmost feels gamebreaking. While the opposition has a lot of shots on goal they are all poor chances, where as I normally get anywhere between 3 and 10 CCCs per game. I've beaten Real Madrid 4-1 at home and Liverpool 3-0 away with this tactic. I bought Belloti and Icardi, so my front three are Lukaku, Belotti and Icardi which opbviously helps matters (sold Mata and Mkhitaryan as they don't fit the tactic), but it is truely devastating including a 10-0 friendly win over Shenua and two 5-0 in the Premier League (one away, one home). I've only played 10 games. Drawn 2, won 8.

[knap]

I have looked at GOODBYE 442. Although not working as I would like, if anyone wants to try in the Beta let me know.