Unrealistic Interactions With The Players

[themadsheep2001]

Anyway I was sceptical of dynamics but I actually love it. You have to work hard to dismantle a team without uproar and rightly so in the higher leagues. It was far too easy to stroll into a club and start selling players left, right and, centre. When in reality there's more to it than than (all variables dependent)  

It makes you actually thing about the long and short term ramifications of transfers, whether phasing popular members out quietly is the way, or throwing your weight around instead. 

Really comes into its own when you've created side of like minded players too

[grasu]

6 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Anyway I was sceptical of dynamics but I actually love it. You have to work hard to dismantle a team without uproar and rightly so in the higher leagues. It was far too easy to stroll into a club and start selling players left, right and, centre. When in reality there's more to it than than (all variables dependent)  

It makes you actually thing about the long and short term ramifications of transfers, whether phasing popular members out quietly is the way, or throwing your weight around instead. 

Really comes into its own when you've created side of like minded players too

I disagree. You can come in and sell players with reckless abandon still. The same player that throws a hissy fit because of various reasons produces no effects on my team when I offer him out for transfer as "Not needed". The problem with player interaction is, like I said, that it's a zero sum game. There are only 2 possible outcomes no matter the answer: a screaming match with someone slamming the door in someone else's face or an acceptance of whatever issue the player previously had. I can scream at the top of my lungs to a player that he's a useless rag that cost us dozens of games (even if he played above average) or I can calmly tell him there's someone who's doing a better job at the moment and that he should wait for his turn and the responses can ONLY go 2 ways: acceptance or fury.

 

The only problem this year is that having a lower reputation is just so much more damaging than before. The only way you can control your players is if you automatically let the game choose a reputation for your or if you set yourself up as a former international. Neither of those options are realistic at all. Very few managers are former internationals and many big name managers were poor footballers or played very little football. I wonder if, IRL, Wenger or Mourinho were immediately disconsidered by their teams because they didn't have 100 caps and 50 international goals.

[themadsheep2001]

11 minutes ago, grasu said:

I disagree. You can come in and sell players with reckless abandon still. The same player that throws a hissy fit because of various reasons produces no effects on my team when I offer him out for transfer as "Not needed". The problem with player interaction is, like I said, that it's a zero sum game. There are only 2 possible outcomes no matter the answer: a screaming match with someone slamming the door in someone else's face or an acceptance of whatever issue the player previously had. I can scream at the top of my lungs to a player that he's a useless rag that cost us dozens of games (even if he played above average) or I can calmly tell him there's someone who's doing a better job at the moment and that he should wait for his turn and the responses can ONLY go 2 ways: acceptance or fury.

 

The only problem this year is that having a lower reputation is just so much more damaging than before. The only way you can control your players is if you automatically let the game choose a reputation for your or if you set yourself up as a former international. Neither of those options are realistic at all. Very few managers are former internationals and many big name managers were poor footballers or played very little football. I wonder if, IRL, Wenger or Mourinho were immediately disconsidered by their teams because they didn't have 100 caps and 50 international goals.

My saves have gone as I've described, and I've sold a few popular players, with the squad accepting of my reasons (I've has various; not in my plans, need youth coming through, needed to raise funds), or in one case, most happy, buy one player slightly upset because I sold his mate (never kicked a fuss and got over it) So it's not a zero sum game at all, certainly not in my case. 

Jose wasn't a former international, but he had a strong rep in the game (that's what the starting rep is emulating, rather than the number of caps ) ditto Wenger. 

[XaW]

1 hour ago, grasu said:

Another **** feature no one asked for. Player Dynamics looked like garbage from the first minute they previewed it and, to no one's surprise, it turned out to be just that: garbage. In the 10 years since SI started making the game more and more about player interaction I have never had a reason to complain about this until now. This year they finally managed to take the cake.

You really think it's this bad? I'm well into my sixth season, and I haven't had any issues with it. Of course, a couple of players have approached me wanting to play a bit more, or a new contract or other things, but I haven't had any issue with either giving in, telling them to stuff it or moving them on. It all depends on how valid I think their claim is. Though, I'm very picky with players I buy, I try to stay clear of volatile and confrontational players, since they are usually the ones who will make a fuss if things don't go their way. I had a player who was unhappy, but then most of the other players thought he was wrong and supported me. So I moved him on for a nice pay. He was a great player, but his antics costed more than he contributed.

For me this have been a great addition to the game, since we now have a much better view of how interactions between manager and the players as well as player vs player actually works out.

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, XaW said:

You really think it's this bad? I'm well into my sixth season, and I haven't had any issues with it. Of course, a couple of players have approached me wanting to play a bit more, or a new contract or other things, but I haven't had any issue with either giving in, telling them to stuff it or moving them on. It all depends on how valid I think their claim is. Though, I'm very picky with players I buy, I try to stay clear of volatile and confrontational players, since they are usually the ones who will make a fuss if things don't go their way. I had a player who was unhappy, but then most of the other players thought he was wrong and supported me. So I moved him on for a nice pay. He was a great player, but his antics costed more than he contributed.

For me this have been a great addition to the game, since we now have a much better view of how interactions between manager and the players as well as player vs player actually works out.

Yep. My interactions have been slightly less varied than yours, but that's because I buy like minded players, which is another thing I like; building a player culture, and forging a tight knit group. So volatile players are usually passed over for professionals 

[Carninho]

On 07/11/2017 at 22:35, Dagenham_Dave said:

No it didn't. Your interaction with him was before the January transfer window. You persuaded him to stay with the promise of CL football, and that promise was fulfilled. However, by the end of the season, he's decided to join Man City despite them not being in the CL because like most players, he's greedy and has been swayed by hard cash more than CL football. All seems reasonable enough to me. 

You'd have a point if the interaction was that he would sign a new contract at the end of the season based on the CL promise then reneged on that (although still within his rights), but from the info you've given, I'm assuming he wanted to move clubs that January. 

Your theory is fine, but FM is a simulation that should stick to the promises made in the game coding. We cant keep using the 'but it happens in real life' line. this is a coded game and should be reported as a bug. I really dont think that FM is trying to be that cute and mirror potential real life scenarios in that way.

I also think you are right in saying that Sanchez is shortlisted by FM at the start of the game and will move to Man City regardless in the vast majority of peoples saves. 

you can also look at your example with the 2nd choice RB that wanted game time. Yes you are able to deal with the situation, but not in the same way that 99% of people playing the game, who would follow the rules that FM expect us to.  In FM17 i would lie to players to keep them happy all the time because experience of playing FM told me that this would work out best for me.

 

[XaW]

Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

Yep. My interactions have been slightly less varied than yours, but that's because I buy like minded players, which is another thing I like; building a player culture, and forging a tight knit group. So volatile players are usually passed over for professionals 

Yeah, I think this is something that's emphasized more this version. The professionals will keep on going, but the volatile ones will cause a fuss over pretty much anything. I have a couple of those, but they are key players and I do my best to keep them happy. However, if they are not good enough I will gladly send them packing to keep the squad cohesion up.

It does seem easier to get rid of unhappy players this version though. In FM17 I had unhappy players refusing to leave to lower rated teams, but now they seem more likely to leave to poorer teams if they are unhappy.

[tajj7]

I've not had that many issues and I have gutted my Southampton team, like someone above said they accepted most of the reasons and where they didn't I made promises like improve the squad, which I then kept. 

My main issue, which more happened in my Liverpool save than this one, and I think happened too much is the players asking for new contracts when they have like 5 year deals or have only signed for the club 6 months ago. Most do accept 'you have plenty of time on your current deal', but the few that don't are annoying. 

They just ask too often IMO.

Moving clubs I accept is a big issue, I have generally dealt with that by agreeing a sale price with the player that is about £10 - 15 million more than his value, so far the AI seems reluctant to pay £60 million for a player valued at £45 million. Then eventually the club wanting them seems to lose interest and the player is happy to stay.

I've had that with Virgil van Dijk pretty much the whole season, he has asked to move to Chelsea, Arsenal, and Barcelona, each time I agreed his sale value and they never bothered bidding. 

What interests me is that the big clubs do not seem to be having as much issue despite their massively bloated squads. The likes of City have about 5 or 6 world class AMLs or AMRs, yet none seem unhappy about not getting first team football.  Many of these clubs also have absurdly large U23s, but again not a huge amount of players are unhappy there either.  

[XaW]

2 minutes ago, tajj7 said:

I've not had that many issues and I have gutted my Southampton team, like someone above said they accepted most of the reasons and where they didn't I made promises like improve the squad, which I then kept. 

My main issue, which more happened in my Liverpool save than this one, and I think happened too much is the players asking for new contracts when they have like 5 year deals or have only signed for the club 6 months ago. Most do accept 'you have plenty of time on your current deal', but the few that don't are annoying. 

They just ask too often IMO.

Moving clubs I accept is a big issue, I have generally dealt with that by agreeing a sale price with the player that is about £10 - 15 million more than his value, so far the AI seems reluctant to pay £60 million for a player valued at £45 million. Then eventually the club wanting them seems to lose interest and the player is happy to stay.

I've had that with Virgil van Dijk pretty much the whole season, he has asked to move to Chelsea, Arsenal, and Barcelona, each time I agreed his sale value and they never bothered bidding. 

What interests me is that the big clubs do not seem to be having as much issue despite their massively bloated squads. The likes of City have about 5 or 6 world class AMLs or AMRs, yet none seem unhappy about not getting first team football.  Many of these clubs also have absurdly large U23s, but again not a huge amount of players are unhappy there either.  

But not all cases of unhappiness is public. It could be that half of the Man City squad are making a fuzz behind closed doors. In my game City are struggling, and that could be down to the unhappiness. Though looking at their squad I wouldn't know it. I had a quick go as Liverpool in the BETA and the only ones I had issue with were Lovren, who I tried to move on, and Milner who wanted to play more. The other players got their fair share of games or got sold or loaned out since I wouldn't use them enough. I even brought in a couple of players to fill out spots in the team (a centre back in De Vrij and a midfielder in Milenkovic Savic).

[tajj7]

4 minutes ago, XaW said:

But not all cases of unhappiness is public. It could be that half of the Man City squad are making a fuzz behind closed doors. In my game City are struggling, and that could be down to the unhappiness. Though looking at their squad I wouldn't know it. I had a quick go as Liverpool in the BETA and the only ones I had issue with were Lovren, who I tried to move on, and Milner who wanted to play more. The other players got their fair share of games or got sold or loaned out since I wouldn't use them enough. I even brought in a couple of players to fill out spots in the team (a centre back in De Vrij and a midfielder in Milenkovic Savic).

They seem pretty public when it happens to me, press seems to get hold of it very quickly, especially as they even know that players are unhappy with their training. 

So I'd expect these players to be more visibly upset. Leroy Sane for example started 2 games all season for Man City, he came off the bench a decent amount but still only played about 20 games. 

[XaW]

8 minutes ago, tajj7 said:

They seem pretty public when it happens to me, press seems to get hold of it very quickly, especially as they even know that players are unhappy with their training. 

So I'd expect these players to be more visibly upset. Leroy Sane for example started 2 games all season for Man City, he came off the bench a decent amount but still only played about 20 games. 

Well, I haven't played with City (I don't like playing with the cheat code of unlimited money ), so I wouldn't know how hard it is. But I managed to keep just about everyone happy and motivated at Liverpool. Still, if you are winning matches and doing well in general, my impression is that most professionals will support you anyway and only a few will moan.

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 hour ago, Carninho said:

 In FM17 i would lie to players to keep them happy all the time because experience of playing FM told me that this would work out best for me.

 

Surely it's better now then? 

[grasu]

2 hours ago, XaW said:

You really think it's this bad? I'm well into my sixth season, and I haven't had any issues with it. Of course, a couple of players have approached me wanting to play a bit more, or a new contract or other things, but I haven't had any issue with either giving in, telling them to stuff it or moving them on. It all depends on how valid I think their claim is. Though, I'm very picky with players I buy, I try to stay clear of volatile and confrontational players, since they are usually the ones who will make a fuss if things don't go their way. I had a player who was unhappy, but then most of the other players thought he was wrong and supported me. So I moved him on for a nice pay. He was a great player, but his antics costed more than he contributed.

For me this have been a great addition to the game, since we now have a much better view of how interactions between manager and the players as well as player vs player actually works out.

My experience was completely different. With a national level reputation and a Continental C License my Leeds manager had "Very poor" respect levels from the team. For a mid level Championship team to scoff at the reputation of a national reputation level manager is ludicrous. If you start as a Sunday league level footballer it's even worse. Now I can fully understand that if I start as a amateur manager trying to coach the likes of MU or Barcelona the players might be a bit skeptical, but for players with Championship level reputations to balk at nationally recognized managers is simply broken. On top of that, much like other things in FM, this doesn't change ANYTHING beyond the first season. During the first season everybody hates me, but as soon as a invisible bar fills up and you've jumped into your second season everything is honky-dory.

Couple this with the utterly broken scouting system and I'm scrambling for players to replace my whining lot with.

There's just TOO many problems with this year's release for me to be happy about it. Perhaps it should serve me as a lesson to stop preordering games but between squad dynamics that no one asked for, broken scouting, dozens of crash dumps, appalling performance and more I'm just finding the whole experience a tad bit annoying.

[XaW]

16 minutes ago, grasu said:

My experience was completely different. With a national level reputation and a Continental C License my Leeds manager had "Very poor" respect levels from the team. For a mid level Championship team to scoff at the reputation of a national reputation level manager is ludicrous. If you start as a Sunday league level footballer it's even worse. Now I can fully understand that if I start as a amateur manager trying to coach the likes of MU or Barcelona the players might be a bit skeptical, but for players with Championship level reputations to balk at nationally recognized managers is simply broken. On top of that, much like other things in FM, this doesn't change ANYTHING beyond the first season. During the first season everybody hates me, but as soon as a invisible bar fills in and you've jumped into your second season everything is honky-dory.

Couple this with the utterly broken scouting system and I'm scrambling for players to replace my whining lot with.

There's just TOO many problems with this year's release for me to be happy about it. Perhaps it should serve me as a lesson to stop preordering games but between squad dynamics that no one asked for, broken scouting, dozens of crash dumps, appalling performance and more I'm just finding the whole experience a tad bit annoying.

Well, to be frank, if a sunday league player with no coaching experience had taken over Barcelona you would expect the players to object. If you chose the automatic function to adjust it to fit the club you'll usually get the correct one that will give you a decent amount of respect. I started once as Liverpool and then I had to max out both license and reputation and they listened to me. My main game was with Marine in the Vanarama North and there I started as a sunday league player and no license, and I have had no issues there either. When I say "no issues" I don't mean no players have come to me with things, but I haven't had any revolts of any kind. Though, I have had a couple of troublemakers I have moved on at the first possibility. I haven't found many issues here, and I feel I have taken a "normal" approach to every situation. Sometimes the player have valid claims, and sometimes not. As it would be in the real world. Some youngsters want game time, and if I feel they are ready I might have given it to them.

I did this with one youngster. 6 matches I gave him, but he played very poor so I dropped him. Then he came back and asked for more and I told him I can't have him play that poorly. And he accepted it and said he would work harder and hoped he would get another chance later. He probably won't ever cut it here, but the interaction works as I would expect it to. Another youngster wanted to play, but I felt he was far away from the quality I want to play with, so I suggested he might go a loan to get some more game time and he loved it. When no clubs wanted to take him, but I kept offering him out every couple of weeks. When the transfer window shut he was happy because I had made an effort to loan him out and he hoped to go out on loan in the next one.

Then I had a player who wanted to play, and I told him he needed to step up his game. He told me he didn't trust me to deliver if he worked harder. For me this means he has to go. I can't have players who don't trust their manager. So I tried to ship him out, but no takers. Not even for free. I guess his reputation as a troublemaker are putting clubs off. So I offered him a mutual termination since his contract was up a year or so. He accepted to leave without pay, since he didn't want to play for me. Problem solved for me. No point keeping players like that. I would do the same even if he was important or a major talent. You can't have employees that don't respect your leadership. And this is where I think most FM'ers who struggle with squad management are failing. If one of your players are really starting to fuzz up, he either have a real isse and you didn't try to help him, or he is a right b****d and needs to leave. No matter if it's Messi or Joe Bloggs. I'd rather have a happy decent player than a world class one who doesn't want to play!

At least that is how I do things, and they seem to work out quite well for me.

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 minutes ago, XaW said:

 

At least that is how I do things, and they seem to work out quite well for me.

Good post, and it's the same for me. I think the problem with others is that it was too easy to 'game' the system in previous versions. Complaints from players could usually be swept under the carpet with minimal repercussions. Therefore it was an area of the game you didn't need to put a lot of thought into. It's different now, and all the better for it IMO. It's been one of the best additions in this year's game for me. 

[Carninho]

1 hour ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Surely it's better now then? 

I thought it sounded the same if not worse now? But i'm only going on what others are saying 

I've havent played FM18 enough yet to see any issues myself. 

I'm hoping my experience is inline with your last post, replying to XaW

[Bry]

I think a theme of this year's iteration is its transparency. Meaning, things like dynamics and injury management have long been key aspects of FM, it's just that now they've become more visible to the user.

Of course there have almost certainly been tweaks to their volatility and complexity, but FM18 is letting us see 'under the hood' a little and we can manage morale (and injuries) a lot more proactively. This can surely only be a good thing.

Dynamics isn't really a 'new' thing, so I don't think some of the vitriol directed at it is justified.

[XaW]

5 minutes ago, Bry said:

I think a theme of this year's iteration is its transparency. Meaning, things like dynamics and injury management have long been key aspects of FM, it's just that now they've become more visible to the user.

Of course there have almost certainly been tweaks to their volatility and complexity, but FM18 is letting us see 'under the hood' a little and we can manage morale (and injuries) a lot more proactively. This can surely only be a good thing.

Dynamics isn't really a 'new' thing, so I don't think some of the vitriol directed at it is justified.

Good post and I agree. Most of the things regarding Dynamics have been present, it just haven't been shown to the user (Manager). Though, it does seem to matter more now than before. But it's not much harder, it just punishes you a bit more should you ignore the issue at hand.

The biggest complaint of the game have been the lack of information, but now that we get it people are complaining about it...

[Terryhall]

 

On ‎04‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 15:58, chrvasile said:

Have you ever heard about a whole team going to the manager and pressuring him into playing someone who underperforms, or giving someone a new contract? And on top of that, have you ever heard it being leaked to the press?

Er, John Terry?    And getting two manager sacked in the process...

[Terryhall]

On ‎06‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 23:28, Dagenham_Dave said:

I think people have a gross misunderstanding of what a 'full scale mutiny' is. 

I'm about 3/4 of the way through the first season and just had my first real incident with this. My backup RB (rightly) complained about lack of game time, and I tried to fob him off by saying the first choice is in the form of his life (he isn't) which he rightly wasn't happy about. Eventually about 10 players in the team approached me wanting to know why I wasn't giving him a game. Not a 'full scale mutiny', just a few players looking for answers. 

I'm in the middle of a promotion battle, and although the backup isn't quite as good as my first choice, he can still do a job, so I promised the group I would give him a chance. Job done, everyone happy. Had it been earlier in the season, I may have been more assertive with them, but it's a key stage with 12 games left. 

The old tricks don't work anymore, you just need to be smarter and play the situation to your advantage, or in other words, good management. 

Absolutely agree with this.  You can't just expect that the tricks you used in FM17 will continue to work, whether that is tactics, team selections, or interactions with players & press.  Twas ever thus.

[styluz_05]

The new dynamics in my opinion is broken! I was on a unbeaten run, and two players came to me, both nowhere near my first team, complained I thought I dealt with it well explained other players are in great form both kicked up and fuss, the squad was in mutiny and now haven't won in 3. 

Had similar in another save I started just simply broken, and ruins the game for me. 

[Carninho]

3 minutes ago, styluz_05 said:

The new dynamics in my opinion is broken! I was on a unbeaten run, and two players came to me, both nowhere near my first team, complained I thought I dealt with it well explained other players are in great form both kicked up and fuss, the squad was in mutiny and now haven't won in 3. 

Had similar in another save I started just simply broken, and ruins the game for me. 

what did you say to the two players when they came to you? and what are their personalities?

Since FM17 I always add the player personality to the main squad screen as you cant underestimate the effect it can have. Especially on regens, get rid of the bad apples 'n all that

[Terryhall]

4 minutes ago, styluz_05 said:

The new dynamics in my opinion is broken! I was on a unbeaten run, and two players came to me, both nowhere near my first team, complained I thought I dealt with it well explained other players are in great form both kicked up and fuss, the squad was in mutiny and now haven't won in 3. 

Had similar in another save I started just simply broken, and ruins the game for me. 

They may not be near your first team, but how Influential are they in your squad as listed in the Dynamics section?  At least refer to the new feature you are criticising.

if they are on the periphery of the squad in Dynamics, then you might have something you need to raise.  If they are Highly Influential, then you can probably expect annoying them to Highly Influence the morale of the rest of the squad - that is how the feature works.

Basically you can no longer get away with just treating players how you want, you have to make the effort to try to understand the (guess what) Dynamics within the squad and actually be a Manager.

[XaW]

9 minutes ago, styluz_05 said:

The new dynamics in my opinion is broken! I was on a unbeaten run, and two players came to me, both nowhere near my first team, complained I thought I dealt with it well explained other players are in great form both kicked up and fuss, the squad was in mutiny and now haven't won in 3. 

Had similar in another save I started just simply broken, and ruins the game for me. 

As @Carninho said. What did you tell them? The great form of the other players? Was the form that great? Or just good enough? The old trick of telling them players in their position are "in the form of their life" doesn't work unless it's the truth. You would be better telling them they aren't in the plans at the moment, and see if they are willing to fight for their spot or if they need to be moved on. Quite realistic really.

And if they are far from the first team, then why haven't you sold them? Or put them out on loan if they are young and need to develop? If they so far away from the first team then you really shouldn't keep them. Remember even "backups", in FM terms, expect about 10-15 matches each season.

[HUNT3R]

The last couple of players who wanted some game time (and I wasn't going to give them any) came to me and the inbox news item told me they're not influential players at all, so I had no issues saying no and no fallout from doing so either.

 

[edk77]

I am managing Arsenal and my manager background is international player.  PSG want to buy Laurent Koscielny and at first I rejected the offer then the whole team not happy on how I treated him. Ok so I reload earlier save and sell Koscielny to PSG. Now Santi Carzola who is injured for 6-7 months is unhappy that I sold Koscielny and complaining to team mates and the whole team turned against me.

Pro football players who play at the highest level has now became more sensitive and temperamental than a 5 years old kid in FM...

[Ant Farley]

Just a quick response to all this but the aim with Dynamics is to make these things easier to nip in the bud. You have to treat your players like human beings though and remember that them requesting to talk to you isn't necessarily an issue unless you deal with them poorly. There are more options than ever to talk players round and get them to drop their concerns and, with the new Hierarchy panels, the ability to request that other influential players in your squad to have a quiet word with the player as well.

The other thing to be aware of is the overall affect of your dressing room atmosphere on the squad, it is well worth your time trying to cultivate a high Dressing Room Atmosphere score because this will decrease the regularity of player complaints, can improve the frequency at which your captain will successfully talk a player out of an issue and will generally create a more harmonious atmosphere, and in turn, can help results on the pitch.

Try to think of your players as people, if a player is in great form, tell them, they will improve their relationship with you and there can only be benefits to having a group of players who respect and like you as a manager. The other, non-happiness interaction options can really help to build a positive relationship with players which will pay off should the player raise a concern about an issue.

Obviously, any examples people have of players behaving in a factually incorrect way should be raised as bugs so we can evaluate them.

[Cap'nRad]

2 hours ago, Ant Farley said:

You have to treat your players like human beings though and remember that them requesting to talk to you isn't necessarily an issue unless you deal with them poorly. There are more options than ever to talk players round and get them to drop their concerns

Interestingly, I think this is part of the issue. If the players behaved more like human beings and acted logically then there would be no issue responding in kind. However, I've read of funny situations such as fringe players causing total mutiny during unbeaten title runs, or things like highly competitive athletes complaining that their competition isn't given a chance, or asking for contracts a few months into your latest one with no improvements to back it up. These sort of things make no sense, are unrealistic, and are definitely not things an actual human player would attempt and accomplish successfully (except in special cases of course). And I think the problem isn't that the players have these issues (although some of them can be ridiculous contextually), but more their binary response to them.

 

As someone else pointed out earlier, responses are usually either acceptance or refusal (which can lead to mutiny), but given the "more options than ever" we have to talk to the players, there should be more responses than ever to go along with them. Not just in the managers office but on the training ground, on the pitch as well. In real life, for the most part players wanting to play need to show it in training and show it in their attitude. If they don't get a chance then they can tell the manager that they've trained well but still been overlooked and then (this part is key) instead of complaining, ask what exactly the manager wants from them so that they can improve and subsequently get picked more often. It needs to be a discussion rather than a complaint, and only if the manager is a stubborn donkey do they then resort to their teammates and the media. Right now the formula is: complain - try to appease - succeed (agreement with little to no further action from the player) or fail (disagreement, unhappiness, possible mutiny). It's quite inflexible and leaves you trying to outsmart the game rather than deal with your players.

 

Lastly, touching on the discussion point, the whole thing needs to be a bit less vague. I understand that it might be hard to implement but irl managers ask specific things of their players and if they can't show it in training, then they aren't picked. In the same vein, we need to be able to ask players to improve specific areas, like work rate, technique, physicality, or attitude before they are picked. If they do in training show a clear improvement then it really opens up more options as to if you are going to be the stubborn donkey manager with favourites, or the more fair manager, and this way you have less excuses if the player confronts you again having shown clear improvements in the areas you specified and are being recommended by your staff for a run in the team. If you decide to be a stubborn manager in this case, it's only your fault if the players don't like it and get unhappy, and if you do give them a chance, they may like you better for having kept your word. Everyone wins. A scenrio like this would be awesome imo. Heck, the improvements the player makes don't even have to be permanent especially if he's a less than professional guy. Just make it so that during interactions we can give players more specific feedback so that it's up to them to improve or not, and if they do, we can actually shoulder the blame if we break our promise.

 

 

[Ant Farley]

Thanks @Cap'nRad interesting response.

I think there's an important distinction to be made between the perception of "fringe player causing total mutiny" and "your treatment of a fringe player" causing issues. I often read posts such as "why would [big name player] care about my third choice left back asking to leave/wanting first team football? More often than not the big name player has issues with the way you've dealt with a scenario as opposed to the issue the lesser player has raised themselves. The idea being that if you treat a teammate badly then what's to say you wouldn't do the same to them.

Again, issues that run contrary to that should be raised as bugs (eg, a LB complaining that a lesser LB should be given more first team football)

Regarding your other paragraphs, obviously, we're striving towards giving users more tailored options that they'd like to see and very much encourage suggestions on how to improve these chats. We're always trying to improve these modules so stuff you've mentioned like asking players to improve in specific areas, whilst already in-game to an extent with preferred move training, tutoring and general training improvements all being things the user can challenge a player to do if they want first team football, would be great suggestions to raise so we can get them under review.

[Cap'nRad]

1 hour ago, Ant Farley said:

I think there's an important distinction to be made between the perception of "fringe player causing total mutiny" and "your treatment of a fringe player" causing issues. I often read posts such as "why would [big name player] care about my third choice left back asking to leave/wanting first team football? More often than not the big name player has issues with the way you've dealt with a scenario as opposed to the issue the lesser player has raised themselves. The idea being that if you treat a teammate badly then what's to say you wouldn't do the same to them.

This I can understand and I like. The only issue I would have is that if the complaint itself is ridiculous/ unrealistic, or lacks context, then I would argue that your treatment of the player doesn't matter as the issue is with the behaviour of the player; who at that point you're simply trying to outsmart.

 

Also I personally don't think squad dynamics should be as prominent and important as it currently is, at least until player interaction is given more flesh, simply because:

 

i) given the volatile nature of football, it doesn't make sense for players to make relationships which supersede their actual job of training for football. I would say that in real life only players who are definitely above the level of the club/ in high demand are able to take such strong stances against the manager's policies, especially if the manager is performing well.

 

ii) the lack of context in the coding of the game can cause all sorts of ridiculous unrealistic scenarios. I guess that's what bug reports are for, but given that the game was coded this way I would just call it lack of context rather than bugs.

 

iii) lack of player responses means that the whole interaction with players, which the dynamics is built on, seems hollow and binary. Although  already spoke about this.

 

iv) I personally think it's one of those gameplay elements that greatly enhances the gameplay from a less prominent "behind the scenes" position, especially if done correctly. In previous fm's favoured personnel were conveyed in a more subtle way, and if you payed attention you were rewarded. Don't annoy your captain or your best player was obvious, but how about the most likeable/ popular/ charismatic? That you had to pay more attention to, and if you did and treated him with the same respect as your key personnel then you were rewarded, and if you disrespected him, you would be surprised by the consequences, and it was totally your fault for not paying attention.  Now in a more prominent position it feels slightly less satisfying and more hand-holding. But that's just me.

 

Anyway, this is all just my opinion, and there are lots who love the dynamics and the challenge it presents. And for the record I think it could be a fine addition with some more toning, context, interaction, and subtlety.

1 hour ago, Ant Farley said:

Regarding your other paragraphs, obviously, we're striving towards giving users more tailored options that they'd like to see and very much encourage suggestions on how to improve these chats. We're always trying to improve these modules so stuff you've mentioned like asking players to improve in specific areas, whilst already in-game to an extent with preferred move training, tutoring and general training improvements all being things the user can challenge a player to do if they want first team football, would be great suggestions to raise so we can get them under review.

I'll try to do so more often. Normally I would like to get a little discussion going first if I have a suggestion just to see if it isn't rubbish. Problem is, usually people discussing suggestions are directed to the suggestions forum, and having seen that, I  end up posting in neither forum as I can't tell if my thought is rubbish without discussing it first. 

[Heywood JaBlowme]

Seriously, when players come to you with requests such as wanting to play at another club so they can compete in CL, are they aware of the current table? 

My team isn’t playing in Europe this year but we’re currently top of the league. I’d love to respond :”Just look at how well we’re playing, shut the hell up, keep playing hard and we WILL be in CL next year!”

I’ve lost count of how many times this has happened-and not just in FM 18.

[HUNT3R]

22 minutes ago, Heywood JaBlowme said:

Seriously, when players come to you with requests such as wanting to play at another club so they can compete in CL, are they aware of the current table? 

My team isn’t playing in Europe this year but we’re currently top of the league. I’d love to respond :”Just look at how well we’re playing, shut the hell up, keep playing hard and we WILL be in CL next year!”

I’ve lost count of how many times this has happened-and not just in FM 18.

AFAIK, you should be able to then promise them the CL football they want next season and be almost sure you'd be getting it?

[Heywood JaBlowme]

2 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

AFAIK, you should be able to then promise them the CL football they want next season and be almost sure you'd be getting it?

Yes I do promise them. It really shouldn’t come to that really.

[Wonderkid MC]

23 hours ago, grasu said:

The only problem this year is that having a lower reputation is just so much more damaging than before. The only way you can control your players is if you automatically let the game choose a reputation for your or if you set yourself up as a former international. Neither of those options are realistic at all. Very few managers are former internationals and many big name managers were poor footballers or played very little football. I wonder if, IRL, Wenger or Mourinho were immediately disconsidered by their teams because they didn't have 100 caps and 50 international goals.

Great points. 

[Wonderkid MC]

19 hours ago, Cap'nRad said:

As someone else pointed out earlier, responses are usually either acceptance or refusal (which can lead to mutiny), but given the "more options than ever" we have to talk to the players, there should be more responses than ever to go along with them. Not just in the managers office but on the training ground, on the pitch as well. In real life, for the most part players wanting to play need to show it in training and show it in their attitude. If they don't get a chance then they can tell the manager that they've trained well but still been overlooked and then (this part is key) instead of complaining, ask what exactly the manager wants from them so that they can improve and subsequently get picked more often. It needs to be a discussion rather than a complaint, and only if the manager is a stubborn donkey do they then resort to their teammates and the media. Right now the formula is: complain - try to appease - succeed (agreement with little to no further action from the player) or fail (disagreement, unhappiness, possible mutiny). It's quite inflexible and leaves you trying to outsmart the game rather than deal with your players.

 

Lastly, touching on the discussion point, the whole thing needs to be a bit less vague. I understand that it might be hard to implement but irl managers ask specific things of their players and if they can't show it in training, then they aren't picked. In the same vein, we need to be able to ask players to improve specific areas, like work rate, technique, physicality, or attitude before they are picked. If they do in training show a clear improvement then it really opens up more options as to if you are going to be the stubborn donkey manager with favourites, or the more fair manager, and this way you have less excuses if the player confronts you again having shown clear improvements in the areas you specified and are being recommended by your staff for a run in the team. If you decide to be a stubborn manager in this case, it's only your fault if the players don't like it and get unhappy, and if you do give them a chance, they may like you better for having kept your word. Everyone wins. A scenrio like this would be awesome imo. Heck, the improvements the player makes don't even have to be permanent especially if he's a less than professional guy. Just make it so that during interactions we can give players more specific feedback so that it's up to them to improve or not, and if they do, we can actually shoulder the blame if we break our promise.

 

 

Well said. I think the Dynamics feature can be improved upon. Those suggestions are very good. I would love to drill further down into more specific instructions requests in response to players complaints and or questions. Player Dynamics could be one of the best aspects of the game but with a bit more refinement.

[steam just is]

So I like to start as a semi pro footballer as this is how FM creates difficulty levels.

I am managing Spurs and obviously no one respects me at beginning as they all ask who is this geezer replacing Poch. This I get.

8 games in with seven wins and one draw and that is away at Bayern in CL. Players want me to hold a team meeting to discuss how bad things are!!! The only set responses I have to reply with are nonsense about turning things around. Turn around from what?? Top of the league? 

If FM is going to put new features in the games its great. Please dont half bake them.

Also do some work on tactics and training. Both of those are ripe for development. 

Still a good game btw but what am I meant to do with my mutinous champions?

 

[HUNT3R]

7 minutes ago, steam just is said:

So I like to start as a semi pro footballer as this is how FM creates difficulty levels.

I am managing Spurs and obviously no one respects me at beginning as they all ask who is this geezer replacing Poch. This I get.

8 games in with seven wins and one draw and that is away at Bayern in CL. Players want me to hold a team meeting to discuss how bad things are!!! The only set responses I have to reply with are nonsense about turning things around. Turn around from what?? Top of the league? 

If FM is going to put new features in the games its great. Please dont half bake them.

Also do some work on tactics and training. Both of those are ripe for development. 

Still a good game btw but what am I meant to do with my mutinous champions?

 

Would be great if you could report that in the bugs forum, preferably with a save from just before that message about the team meeting.