How do you play with older players?

[Cal585]

I want to ask how people make good use of older players, particularly in lower leagues where you’re working with what you’ve got. Often, some of my best players will have good technical and mentals but poor physicals. When this includes both the striker(s) and the centre backs I’m not sure how to set them up. With poor pace for strikers, I would plan to push high, so they’re relying more on their movement and finishing than chasing through balls. However, I don’t want to push slow centre backs up either, lest they get exposed with long balls. But I can’t really sit too deep with them either or I isolate the striker.

I’ve tried possession style tactics to work it up towards the forward with players around him, but I’ve struggled to implement it properly in lower leagues where my team might be technically good for the level but still unreliable. My team can tend to struggle to break down a settled opponent, mishit a pass and then get opened up on the counter. I've tried just leaving things generic with no TI but this tends to be very inconsistent. I'm up to the point now where I'm just overthinking everything.

Would really appreciate some general advice on what approach others have taken when the team spine is fairly slow.

 

[Gorstak]

You're overcomplicating things. Start with standard flexible, pick a formation that fits your available players, and work on attacking team instructions. Usually it's either work ball into box that's necessary if you have more attacking then defensive players, or hit early crosses if you have more defenders then attackers. It's a simple game, and you should keep it that way. 

[Cal585]

Most likely I am overcomplicating things. That's why I was after something simple like "if the spine is slow, then you'll need to use the flanks more". Trying to build something, not just win. However, I don't understand this:

2 hours ago, Gorstak said:

or hit early crosses if you have more defenders then attackers.

Isn't that only useful if you're sitting deep and have quick attackers you want to play in behind before the other team sets up?

[Overmars]

Quite frankly, I sell slow players unless they can be used as an anchoring DMC or an AMC with great vision to create chances for others. Slow central defenders with great jumping, heading, marking, and tackling will still perform well according to their individual match stats (aerial challenges, tackles, interceptions), so they can be useful when paired with a faster partner to cover behind them. Nevertheless, I prefer to have fast defenders and attackers.

In general, one or two slow players won't kill you. You just don't want a team full of them or else you will play like Everton has played to start the real life 2017-18 season.

[Whoarethey?]

Good question

 

As someone who spent a long time trying to get Accrington up from league 1/league 2 in fm17 I will make a few points.

Firstly I presume like me you have no or very limited budget. When I joined I had a team with decent mentals poor physicals and awful technical as you would expect at those levels.

Obvious point but I set training to low or even very low, any players I tried to sign the main attribute I looked for was decisions (hard to find) and concentration (easier to find) in all positions. I settled on a structured 1 up front formation with variations in behind.

The whole squad was old, I played youth players in behind the striker with instructions that allowed high work rate and expression and movement from the position. All other positions were very structured including the targetman who for the first few seasons was Billy Kee.

Most teams will have a "slow spine" at this level. I keep the defensive line standard unless the opposition have a striker (usually a loanee) with pace and acceleration above the norm for the level.

Good luck

 

 

 

[Gorstak]

On 10/27/2017 at 07:00, Cal585 said:

Most likely I am overcomplicating things. That's why I was after something simple like "if the spine is slow, then you'll need to use the flanks more". Trying to build something, not just win. However, I don't understand this:

Isn't that only useful if you're sitting deep and have quick attackers you want to play in behind before the other team sets up?

 

Nobody in real football is "sitting deep". They either lack players upfront or are up against better opponents and end up in their own half. What you think is counter is actually a normal tactic against supperior opposition. Everyone is playing standard flexible. You only go counter mentality when you get a red card, or go control or even attacking if the opponent is a man short. Nobody is doing control or counter or anything else if there isn't a reason for it. It creates a disbalance in your team and if you pick it, your defenders or your attackers will have higher/lower form. Anyway, if you have 5 defenders and 5 attackers, your best bet is to not touch anything at all, unless there is a need for it. If you get a red card, switch to counter, if they get a red card, switch to control. And if your assistant tells you something during the match, you should listen. In any case, if you have 6 players upfront and 4 at the back, you will be making a lot of longshots, which means, and your assistant will also tell you that, you need to pick work ball into box. Additionally, I think every tactic with more offensive then defensive players, and vice versa, needs a change in crossing, passing and shooting team instructions. This is required. So work ball into box plus shorter passing plus low crossess for a tactic with more offensive then defensive players is all the change you need, and if you do so, you will do well.

[Draakon]

I have to say I look attack and defense separately in this question.

I choose DL line after opposition strikers. If they are quick and have good anticipation + off the ball, I prefer quicker, smaller defenders, or really drop deeper. But to some extent you can compensate lack of pace with anticipation and positioning and most older players do it well.

In attack it is less question of DL, but distribution. If you have slow striker you could rely more on crosses and short passes rather than long balls that need pace to receive it. "Pass into space" is not a perfect instruction, too. Your slow striker expects ball to his feet or on head. Also check what sort of crosses your wide players give him.

[Cal585]

Good point on adjusting based on their direct opponent for the upcoming game @Draakon. It's not something I do enough of.

 

22 hours ago, Gorstak said:

 

Nobody in real football is "sitting deep". They either lack players upfront or are up against better opponents and end up in their own half. What you think is counter is actually a normal tactic against supperior opposition. Everyone is playing standard flexible. You only go counter mentality when you get a red card, or go control or even attacking if the opponent is a man short. Nobody is doing control or counter or anything else if there isn't a reason for it. It creates a disbalance in your team and if you pick it, your defenders or your attackers will have higher/lower form. 

Not sure I agree. Managers set their teams up lots of different ways, trying to emphasise their strengths and diminish their weaknesses, or just playing to a certain philosophy. Some teams will press high up the pitch and try and play in their opponent's half, while others will be more disciplined and drop deeper into their own half to set up their defence instead of chasing the ball. Some managers look to release their attackers quickly, while others get annoyed if their team ever plays long from defence. It's not just the best team that wins.

And I definitely disagree with listening to Assistant Manager. They report on statistical trends, not necessarily something specific to the tactic. Just because my CBs are winning headers does not mean I want to play high balls to my strikers. Nor do I want to follow his advice to go from direct passing to retain possession to shoot on site.

[Draakon]

One thing I'd like to add about DL. It has to be set in accordance of overall tactics. DL in my opinion affects how your overall team defense works.

For example. I want to control possession and regain possession as soon as possible. I've set my attacking players to close down opposition defenders with ball, make tackles and apply pressure higher on the pitch. I also push DL higher and in combination of those settings it means that opposition can't play ball out of defense, they're under pressure and lack passing options to midfield. It results in a long ball forward from their defenders or GK and if I trust my defenders, we win it back quickly and opponent can't even put together good passes to start attacking move.

Now, if in rare cases when opponents have one or two excellent passers and good pacey off the ball striker, I might get burned with this. But if I drop my DL deeper, I have to look through ALL defensive orders. Because if I adjust only DL, it means we're less compact, leave spaces in midfield and there are more ways to opposition defenders to avoid pressure, get past our first defensive line and then exploit this midfield space to build their attacks. It means we're not defending as unit any more. So I have to adjust closing down orders to attacking players and accept that perhaps we're not getting as much possession as I want, because there are enough time and space for opponents to move it around in their own half.

To counter that I must consider if I want to take less risks in attack and tick 'retain possession', being less adventurous and more careful in our attacks, making sure that we're not giving away too much opportunities for the other team to pass the ball between defenders, as we can't apply high pressure any more.

Of course, it's a question of player abilities, score line and taking risks, but as I've understood that's the effect of DL setting in FM. It changes your all defensive approach and in return, also your attacking approach, as you're not planning to sit in defense, but try to find scoring opportunities instead.

[Whoarethey?]

I would disagree about listening much to the assistant especially at lower levels.

At league 1 2 level you probably have at best an average assistant why take his word over what you have seen in games?

[Gorstak]

I think that assistant is coded to react depending on match stats...under certain conditions, there goes his pop-up window. And those conditions in my experience do not change no matter what league you play in. I often start unemployed as sunday league no coaching quals manager and get a job at worcester in vanarama north, and the assistant there is no different then in premier league, at least judging upon match advice. Just like players, staff should also be decent for the league you play in, and if they are, you will do well.

 

For those of you who don't beleive me, you should simply create a 4 defenders and 6 attackers tactic and set shorter passing, work ball into box and low crosses team instructions without making any other changes. Simply pick a 442 or 4231 or whatever you wish from the drop down menu, make those three TI's and play. Once your team is somewhat fluid in it, you will see some nice results, and they will also be consistent. Like I said, football is a simple game, you do not need 99% of options this game offers to be successful. I have attached one of mine such matches as proof.

 

Everton v Liverpool.pkm

[Rashidi]

On 26/10/2017 at 20:57, Cal585 said:

I want to ask how people make good use of older players, particularly in lower leagues where you’re working with what you’ve got. Often, some of my best players will have good technical and mentals but poor physicals. When this includes both the striker(s) and the centre backs I’m not sure how to set them up. With poor pace for strikers, I would plan to push high, so they’re relying more on their movement and finishing than chasing through balls. However, I don’t want to push slow centre backs up either, lest they get exposed with long balls. But I can’t really sit too deep with them either or I isolate the striker.

I’ve tried possession style tactics to work it up towards the forward with players around him, but I’ve struggled to implement it properly in lower leagues where my team might be technically good for the level but still unreliable. My team can tend to struggle to break down a settled opponent, mishit a pass and then get opened up on the counter. I've tried just leaving things generic with no TI but this tends to be very inconsistent. I'm up to the point now where I'm just overthinking everything.

Would really appreciate some general advice on what approach others have taken when the team spine is fairly slow.

 

I know a lot of people have found older players to be a boon in lower leagues including me. And this season I will return to doing another LLM save too, and one of my strategies is signing these old wise hats.

1. Older keepers are usually still good, I have used a keeper till he was 44, and he was still good enough
2. Older players who have strong mentals can still play a big part in your systems you just need to design a system to accommodate them.  Eg. Rossi irl and Pirlo. Both players were surrounded by workaholics who would do the physical grunt work for them leaving the two old men to do what they did best, pass and unlock.

In the beta I am managing an MLS save for the first time, and I've had to sign some older players on a free, so I go for the attributes that give them the edge and forget about trying to get them to physically outdo everyone else. Its their experience and guile I want. So they end up either playing as Mezzala's, Trequartista's, DLPs ( here I will only use them as part of a 4 man midfield (DM+3CMs) where the DLP is the DM screened by three grunts. 

It's not hard building a possession based tactic, but by choosing the right roles and duties around them I can also make rapid direct style attacking tactics which move the ball in 4 moves or less to a strike on goal.

[Draakon]

Also, older players with right mental attributes are perfect tutors and leaders on the pitch. They usually are motivated, less nervous and initiate comebacks if situation gets difficult. Also they ask less money after their age is over 30, so it might be wise to stick with them while they're good enough.

[Cal585]

On 30/10/2017 at 03:18, Rashidi said:

2. Older players who have strong mentals can still play a big part in your systems you just need to design a system to accommodate them.  Eg. Rossi irl and Pirlo. Both players were surrounded by workaholics who would do the physical grunt work for them leaving the two old men to do what they did best, pass and unlock.

In the beta I am managing an MLS save for the first time, and I've had to sign some older players on a free, so I go for the attributes that give them the edge and forget about trying to get them to physically outdo everyone else. Its their experience and guile I want. So they end up either playing as Mezzala's, Trequartista's, DLPs ( here I will only use them as part of a 4 man midfield (DM+3CMs) where the DLP is the DM screened by three grunts. 

So you mainly limit their use to the midfield where they have hard working players around them to offset their limitations?

 

Since creating this thread I've played several games with Parma on FMT, a team with a lot of players over 30 (and a couple over 35), who are all leading players or good for the division above. I've found that I didn't have as much problem with the defensive line as I feared, mostly leaving it on normal, as their reading and positioning mostly cut out the threat. Biggest problem I had was when I tried pushing the opposition's defence as this encouraged a long ball clearance over the top and it was just plain depressing watching their striker run past my defenders for a 1v1. Also tried to play some pace in the fullback slots, though this also had problems with 1 of my younger fullbacks having poor marking and consistently getting beaten down his side and late runs into the box killed my defenders. I struggled more getting use out of my main striker (Calaio), as he was sometimes isolated up top in a 4-3-3. Good finishing and passing, but slow and poor dribbling. Retraining him to play AM but I don't know how to include that position without going strikerless as I don't want to go too top heavy and force the opposition to play over my defenders (4-4-1-1 I suppose if I retrain the wide players). Played him as a DLF trying to get others working off him but it meant he was inconsistent. He ended up 8th on the goal scoring list, despite being the best striker in the league, and going through some lengthy droughts that shot his confidence. But that might be more down to me struggling to get a grip on the tactics. It didn't help that both young (faster) strikers I had were AF with poor creativity so trying to balance the tactic was a pain. In the end, I mostly restricted the TI to shorter passing and work ball into box. Shorter passing helped cut out some of the risky crossfield passes which were exposing my slow defenders when they got picked off in the middle and I was committed forward, work ball into box was needed because I was trying to discourage long shots past the organised opposition defenders by the time I got forward. Tried lower tempo, retain possession, early crosses, roam from position and more closing down at various times but none really worked.

So slower defenders were alright, though I'm looking to bring in a quicker partner. Slow striker caused me more problems, as it meant attacks had to be more patient and I needed players running past him from deeper.