Football Manager TV: Tactics

[BigRoboCrouch]

8 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Have you actually been listening to a word I've said, or are you just going to repeat the same thing over and over again? 

You simply need to either be more creative with the vanilla roles in the game, or buy a player who'll fit in to the style of player you want in that position. It's really not that difficult. 

Jesus Christ, you are one of the biggest shills i've ever seen who'll blindly accept anything, as any criticism is "negativity wave". God forbid people use their brain to make some constructive criticism, right???

[tyro]

53 minutes ago, 91427 said:

Miles didn't say that at all though, what he actually said was a new *graphics* engine

 

Ok, you got me, not match engine, graphics engine, what I explained is from Miles' conversations on twitter:

 

Check his conversation on Sep 30 with Rob Cook and David Campbell.

Miles: "what do you think a graphics engine is, Rob?"

Miles: "it is underlying code that draws & renders items on screen. It is not match AI. It is not graphics. It is not animation. It is not lighting."

Miles: "but it does help those look better. And helps with improving the look both short, and long, term."

[MoxeysTheName]

How does one look for the underlap? Is that not just essentially passing the ball back the way?( inverted wingbacks tuck into channel between either the centre back and the winger or the central midfielder and the winger, acting as an additional midfielder and follow the winger up the park)

[westy8chimp]

1 hour ago, Barside said:

You’ve effectively summed it up here. SI are attempting to mimic real life so in FM just as irl what works on the tactics board just doesn’t work on the pitch & there will be times when there is no logical reason, just an acceptance that it didn’t work & it’s time to move to a new plan or player.

Hate having to rely on PPMs to achieve a basic tactical decision - to be honest PPMs shouldn't be something we can train or un-train - it is a player trait/habit. Everything tactical should be a managerial choice, and then find the player that can and does follow your instructions.

If I'm playing 532 with a back 3 I may want one of them to bring the ball out, to link with midfield due to the lack of a DM ... if I then go to a 4123 wide, I certainly wouldn't want my CB to bring the ball out.

[Cougar2010]

34 minutes ago, MoxeysTheName said:

How does one look for the underlap? Is that not just essentially passing the ball back the way?( inverted wingbacks tuck into channel between either the centre back and the winger or the central midfielder and the winger, acting as an additional midfielder and follow the winger up the park)

I would imagine it would be the opposite of full backs overlapping.

So basically where the winger stays wide and the fullback drives past him into the channel between fullback & DC.

[MBarbaric]

7 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

I would imagine it would be the opposite of full backs overlapping.

So basically where the winger stays wide and the fullback drives past him into the channel between fullback & DC.

this indeed, an overlap on the inside. the last video in this playlist

this is a prototype of an attacking wingback. you will see him a lot on the underlapping runs. actually, i think SI should put a short clip with video from the ME to each role so people get the idea what the role does in the game.

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by MBarbaric

[AFCBeer]

Regarding the playmaker debate, what confuses the issue is the complete overuse of the term in the media and by pundits. Essentially they use it to describe any attacking player they consider to be skillful. I think this makes a lot of FM players think they need to select playmaker roles for these players. 

For example, I've seen players as diverse as Ronaldo, Sanchez, Coutinho,  Alli, Pogba and Hazard described as playmakers. For me, these all have generic roles, either inside forwards or (attacking) centre midfielders with tweaked PI's to reflect their atttributes. 

I consider an Advanced Playmaker as the focal point of a team's passing in the final third. Someone constantly looking to find space to receive the ball and play it through for teammates to score. Not someone who would look to get in goal scoring positions and shoot themselves. I don't think any of the players mentioned above fit this description of playmaker. They are all great attacking players who do shoot from distance regularly as they aren't a playmaker!

[westy8chimp]

Coutinho, Pogba, Eriksen jump out to me as definite playmakers (generally touch the ball most in the opposition half during a match) ... all three like to shoot from range.

Primarily they should be rotating the ball, probing for chances and one twos ... not necessarily looking to shoot. I just don't think it should be hard coded to 'less often' ... these are the best players on the pitch and should have free will to choose whether to shoot or pass or dribble.

Absolutely need to be a ball magnet, other than that nothing to do with their passing or shooting or risk taking should be hard coded.

It's an odd debate as it seems so obvious to both sides that they are right  

If Eriksen is 20 yards out and he gets closed down quickly - he passes. If instead of being closed down the opposition mark his passing options/channels to Alli and Kane - he shoots.

[Cougar2010]

11 hours ago, eric1000 said:

I didn't buy the game last year ( first time since Eidos published CM ) and to be honest it doesn't look like I will be buying it this year either, because at the moment it looks like 90% preparation & 10% actually playing the game.  Some people like to pour over spreadsheets and that's fine.  If you are one of those people then more power to you.  I want to play a video game and have fun, not spend all of my time trying to appease virtual babies and running the risk of a wrong word completely effing up the team.

It actually makes me sad that you feel that way about FM.

A 90/10 split is perhaps similar to RL but in no way close to how I play FM.  I play all matches on comprehensive highlights which means each match takes approx 10-15 mins depending on the number of highlights.  In terms of prep for a match I probably spend less than 5 mins most of which is picking the team.

Dealing with the "virtual babies" as you put it takes me less than ten mins a season.  On average I get between five & ten players a season coming to me with an issue, I look at their case and treat them the same way I treat my staff IRL.  I pick the response that I feel fits best and away you go.  Each issue takes me less than a minute to deal with, sometimes the players are happy with my decision, other times they aren't but it rarely becomes a squad issue.  There really should be no need for anyone to feel like you do about the interaction.

However the bottom line is that football management isn't just about picking a team and playing matches and FM reflects some of the things that go on away from matches.  As you rightly say some people like the depth & detail FM offer but it isn't for everyone and each person needs to make a personal choice as to whether FM is what they are looking for in a game.

[MoxeysTheName]

17 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

this indeed, an overlap on the inside. the last video in this playlist

this is a prototype of an attacking wingback. you will see him a lot on the underlapping runs. actually, i think SI should put a short clip with video from the ME to each role so people get the idea what the role does in the game.

 

In that first video the centre midfielders are still being overlapped.

[Cougar2010]

6 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Coutinho, Pogba, Eriksen jump out to me as definite playmakers (generally touch the ball most in the opposition half during a match) ... all three like to shoot from range.

Primarily they should be rotating the ball, probing for chances and one twos ... not necessarily looking to shoot. I just don't think it should be hard coded to 'less often' ... these are the best players on the pitch and should have free will to choose whether to shoot or pass or dribble.

Absolutely need to be a ball magnet, other than that nothing to do with their passing or shooting or risk taking should be hard coded.

It's an odd debate as it seems so obvious to both sides that they are right  

If Eriksen is 20 yards out and he gets closed down quickly - he passes. If instead of being closed down the opposition mark his passing options/channels to Alli and Kane - he shoots.

I disagree on Pogba but do agree with the likes of Coutinho & Eriksen being described as playmakers.

I can also see both sides of the discussion.  On one side the playmaker should be primarily the main creator but they do shoot as well.  On the other side their first thought should be to pass so it makes some sense to have shoot less often hard coded.

Before you draw any conclusion you really need to see how often a player like those three shoots in the ME with that hard coded instruction. 

[MBarbaric]

1 minute ago, MoxeysTheName said:

In that first video the centre midfielders are still being overlapped.

if you are referring to the last video in the playlist (the one relevant for the discussion) you are right., they are being overlapped through the center-hence the term undelap.  while overlap on the fank is an - overlap.

[MoxeysTheName]

2 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

if you are referring to the last video in the playlist (the one relevant for the discussion) you are right., they are being overlapped through the center-hence the term undelap.  while overlap on the fank is an - overlap.

I'm pretty sure that any time anybody goes past you it's an overlap regardless of whether it's on the inside or the outside. The video would have been more useful if it showed the wingers as the inverted wingbacks would have been underlapping them whilst still overlapping the central players

[MBarbaric]

7 minutes ago, MoxeysTheName said:

I'm pretty sure that any time anybody goes past you it's an overlap regardless of whether it's on the inside or the outside.

it is, but to distinguish an overlap on the outside and inside, the common way to describe the overlap on inside we say underlap while the one on the outside is called an overlap.

[Scrench]

After spending some time thinking about it, I can say that these new features look excellent.

Regulars in the tactical forum probably noticed how most people have trouble with understanding the pros/cons of their tactic. The game barely gives any feedback (if it does it is absolutely garbage advice) regarding this area, and with the new analysis options, spotting and most importantly understanding the flaws will be soooo much easier for people who only has a slight interest in tactics and don't have a big lexical knowledge about the topic. Personally I probably won't use it really much but SI really did a good job to help out this playerbase.

The new player roles are pretty much what we need: Specific movements. I have a lot of trouble with instructing my players to act in a certain way, i feel limited in terms of constructing attacking moves, but with the new roles this will become much easier and i don't have to get needlessly creative with the TC.

So even tho i'm disappointed that no steps have been made to improve the defensive side of the game this year, I have to say that SI did add multiple excellent and necessary features to the tactical side of the game, and made some steps forward. Not huge steps, but they are steps forward.

 

[herne79]

43 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

actually, i think SI should put a short clip with video from the ME to each role so people get the idea what the role does in the game.

I think that's one of the best ideas I've ever heard.  When you get a mo, raise it in the Feature Requests Forum .

[grade]

12 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

That's exactly why the 'Classic' edition of the game was created back in FM13,  You have the choice to immerse yourself in the full game, but if that's not for you, and all you want to do is zip through a season picking the team/tactic and buy/sell players, then there's a mode for that too. In fact, just started an FMT save with Sampdoria last night to get a quick season in before the Beta comes out. It's great that SI have catered for both audiences, despite many people turning their noses up to it 

Maybe I got used of the good life, having all these years the editor, gave me the freedom to create a fun game (short but fun), despite not agreeing with some of the features in the full game.

This is going to be the 5th released of Football Manager with the Classic/Touch version. If there isn't going to be an editor for Touch (PC and Mac version at least), I'm going to probably not buy this game version. It begins to hard to justify to buy this game, and it is probably is number 1 request for Touch.

I don't know about the others who requested this, but I begin to get tired of waiting. I created a topic 3 years ago to help show the importance of an FMT Editor (at the time was FMC Editor). That in time cover by other threads and probably forgotten with time. Like everything else.

Here is the link: 

If this version doesn't have any editor for this version of the game, the justification for me is quite clear. Micro-transactions is far more important then any FMT Editor. That will probably place SI equal to any other game developer (which still firm believe they are different). Take has much money has possible from the costumers with their DLC and micro-transactions cr*p, despite the costumers already pay a full price for their games (games aren't that cheap). I hate DLCs and I HATE they charge extra for them (in general terms). I even would spend money for FMT editor if was release has an DLC, to show ho big of fan I'm for FM.

Sorry if this comes out harsh, that probably is my impatience and disappointment speak out loud. But I'm clinging to little bit of hope for the FMT Editor, but I know the probability to happen is quite small. Even if they show with the editor, probably it will not have all bells and whistles that Full FM editor has. My optimism about it is at all time low.

Rant over.

Edited October 13, 2017 by grade

[MoxeysTheName]

2 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

it is, but to distinguish an overlap on the outside and inside, the common way to describe the overlap on inside we say underlap while the one on the outside is called an overlap.

In that context, look for the underlap is really just the same as look for the overlap whereas in IRL, an underlap is staying behind someone, ever so slightly tucked in as so to create triangles and enable the winger to make penetrating runs

[westy8chimp]

7 minutes ago, MoxeysTheName said:

In that context, look for the underlap is really just the same as look for the overlap whereas in IRL, an underlap is staying behind someone, ever so slightly tucked in as so to create triangles and enable the winger to make penetrating runs

I think you are over complicating it, and focussing on semantics.

It's fairly clear (I hope I'm right) that this is just going to be a variance of the overlap - where instead of fullbacks going beyond the outside of the wingers, they will go beyond the winger on the inside.

Baines used to do this perfectly with Pienaar at Everton, Monreal does it very well at the moment with Sanchez. We see so often now full backs attacking the edge of the penalty area, rather than the touchline, I think it's a great addition.

Annoying that, as others have said, it applies to both flanks or neither.

[rimisark]

3 hours ago, XaW said:

It looks good and many useful new features, but I'm still a bit underwhelmed. I had hoped for a couple of things more, though I understand it might be hard to implement. I would like to see more "transitional" instructions. For instance when the team loses possession do <something>, when the team regain possession in advanced areas do <something>. This would allow us to give more tactical instructions as to how the transitional phases were to be executed. Like gegenpress. If the team loses possession full on pressing for a short while, if unsuccessful then fall back into deeper positions. Or more detailed counterattacking options. If we are getting the ball in advanced areas everyone in wide areas bomb forward to create space for a cross to our big target man.

As I stated, I get it might be hard to do, but it would give a more realistic approach to tactics, or at least the transitional phases of the play. This is, at least for me, the most lacking aspect of tactics for the moment. I'm still looking forward to play, don't get me wrong, I was just hoping for this to be implemented.

Really like this. Could you raise it in the Feature Requests Forum? Thanks.

[MBarbaric]

16 minutes ago, MoxeysTheName said:

In that context, look for the underlap is really just the same as look for the overlap

in the game context it isn't. by introducing it, SI has made an option for players to create overlaps on the inside (underlaps) which previously wasn't available.

 

16 minutes ago, MoxeysTheName said:

underlap is staying behind someone, ever so slightly tucked in as so to create triangles and enable the winger to make penetrating runs

It is just game mechanics which (hopefully) will help to recreate tactics we see in real. if I understand it well, you are describing the movement from a wide player (i.e full back) that (without the ball) drifts inside into the half space (what guardiola did with Lahm for example). That isn't an overlap/underlap. Underlap would be if that full back then proceeded to run through the middle and beyond the winger. An overlap would be if that full back never went into half space and just hugged the touch line running beyond the winger on his outside. 

EDIT: just seen westy replied to this much clearer than i could ever do

this is really a good short video on inverted full backs and their role in middle and attacking third.

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by MBarbaric

[grasu]

I honestly see very little reason to complain here. This is the first time SI have made real strides since, at least, the tactics creator to make the game more approachable to new players. Tactical analysis, with pros and cons, was a much requested feature. It should've been in the game years ago. With this feature you can actually make your own tactics without having to look at 90 minute matches. This is CRUCIAL because a vast majority of players don't do that. Sure, the other stuff might be for finer tuning, but it's great to know that you'll now ACTUALLY be able to use it.

Like a lot of other FM players out there I don't have time to spend hours watching full matches to tweak my tactics. I also don't have the footballing knowledge required to always realize what's going on on the pitch or where I'm going wrong. With these new features it seems like I'm going to be given the opportunity to be more actively involved in tactics making. What's more I'm also going to be able to use a much wider variety of tactics because I'll have an ass man that actually tells me if my team is **** for my tactics, where I'm going wrong and what I can do to make it better. 

This truly looks like a massive reason to buy the game this year.

[Harryhi]

Ive definaty decided to play the demo first before buying my first FM since FM15. The team talks here in the tactics could be a big deal, if it’s like some talks with the team where, you say the wrong thing ( which isn’t really the wrong thing) and then suddenly all the team hates you. Well, hopefully it’s not like that but it’s a dodgy thing that needs a trial beforehand I think to see how it works. I’m open minded, it could be great for all I know. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, grade said:

Maybe I got used of the good life, having all these years the editor, gave me the freedom to create a fun game (short but fun), despite not agreeing with some of the features in the full game.

This is going to be the 5th released of Football Manager with the Classic/Touch version. If there isn't going to be an editor for Touch (PC and Mac version at least), I'm going to probably not buy this game version. It begins to hard to justify to buy this game, and it is probably is number 1 request for Touch.

I don't know about the others who requested this, but I begin to get tired of waiting. I created a topic 3 years ago to help show the importance of an FMT Editor (at the time was FMC Editor). That in time cover by other threads and probably forgotten with time. Like everything else.

Here is the link: 

If this version doesn't have any editor for this version of the game, the justification for me is quite clear. Micro-transactions is far more important then any FMT Editor. That will probably place SI equal to any other game developer (which still firm believe they are different). Take has much money has possible from the costumers with their DLC and micro-transactions cr*p, despite the costumers already pay a full price for their games (games aren't that cheap). I hate DLCs and I HATE they charge extra for them (in general terms). I even would spend money for FMT editor if was release has an DLC, to show ho big of fan I'm for FM.

Sorry if this comes out harsh, that probably is my impatience and disappointment speak out loud. But I'm clinging to little bit of hope for the FMT Editor, but I know the probability to happen is quite small. Even if they show with the editor, probably it will not have all bells and whistles that Full FM editor has. My optimism about it is at all time low.

Rant over.

All i want to do is play the english leagues below the conference north. Like you said. Id even pay for it has a DLC. I know this probably isn't going work on tablet mode. But for PC only, it would transform the game for me. I loved playing as Pontefract on FM15, but all the talking to players and press conferences, have put me off the full FM.  The thought of having another team meeting before a game drives me insane. I know some people love this type of thing but all i dont have the patience these days. 

[XaW]

1 hour ago, rimisark said:

Really like this. Could you raise it in the Feature Requests Forum? Thanks.

Done.

 

[apvmoreira]

5 hours ago, XaW said:

It looks good and many useful new features, but I'm still a bit underwhelmed. I had hoped for a couple of things more, though I understand it might be hard to implement. I would like to see more "transitional" instructions. For instance when the team loses possession do <something>, when the team regain possession in advanced areas do <something>. This would allow us to give more tactical instructions as to how the transitional phases were to be executed. Like gegenpress. If the team loses possession full on pressing for a short while, if unsuccessful then fall back into deeper positions. Or more detailed counterattacking options. If we are getting the ball in advanced areas everyone in wide areas bomb forward to create space for a cross to our big target man.

As I stated, I get it might be hard to do, but it would give a more realistic approach to tactics, or at least the transitional phases of the play. This is, at least for me, the most lacking aspect of tactics for the moment. I'm still looking forward to play, don't get me wrong, I was just hoping for this to be implemented.

Transitions its the most important aspect of tactics and the most complex to replicate, and maybe its why SI does not have 2 sets of tactics, one for offense and one for the defensive stance, complemented by transitions tactics, again one for attack and one for defense.

 

It would be amazing and i hope to see it in future versions, we just need to do the path

[MoxeysTheName]

2 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

I think you are over complicating it, and focussing on semantics.

It's fairly clear (I hope I'm right) that this is just going to be a variance of the overlap - where instead of fullbacks going beyond the outside of the wingers, they will go beyond the winger on the inside.

Baines used to do this perfectly with Pienaar at Everton, Monreal does it very well at the moment with Sanchez. We see so often now full backs attacking the edge of the penalty area, rather than the touchline, I think it's a great addition.

Annoying that, as others have said, it applies to both flanks or neither.

yes, but it would only be wingers that would have the instruction to look for the underlap because to everybody else on the park it's just a forward run and even then, they would only get beyond the winger in the final third. 

Edited October 13, 2017 by MoxeysTheName

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, XaW said:

Done.

 

Sorry. your right. My bad

[westy8chimp]

15 minutes ago, MoxeysTheName said:

yes, but it would only be wingers that would have the instruction to look for the underlap because to everybody else on the park it's just a forward run and even then, they would only get beyond the winger in the final third. 

No it wouldn't apply to wingers ! It would apply to full backs. think of them in a direct line behind the winger. If you choose to neither overlap nor underlap (say wing attack, full back support) they will keep in line just behind the winger when you attack to support and offer the deep cross.

If you apply overlap - the winger will hold the ball up and the full back will run beyond them on the touchline

If you apply underlap - the winger will hold the ball up and the full back will run beyond them on the inside.

[Sammy_CJ]

3 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

I disagree on Pogba but do agree with the likes of Coutinho & Eriksen being described as playmakers.

I can also see both sides of the discussion.  On one side the playmaker should be primarily the main creator but they do shoot as well.  On the other side their first thought should be to pass so it makes some sense to have shoot less often hard coded.

Before you draw any conclusion you really need to see how often a player like those three shoots in the ME with that hard coded instruction. 

When I watch United which I do a lot as I am a fan it always seems to me as though the other players will actively look to get the ball to Pogba as much as is sensible to do so. he seems to be the one picking the ball up from the defenders and moving the ball through the midfield. I guess that is like the playmaker discription as far as FM goes. Roaming playmaker would seem to fit...? i dont see as much of Coutinho or Eriksen but im sure its similar in that they are the focus.. most touches in oppo half and so on.. 

[MoxeysTheName]

2 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

No it wouldn't apply to wingers ! It would apply to full backs. think of them in a direct line behind the winger. If you choose to neither overlap nor underlap (say wing attack, full back support) they will keep in line just behind the winger when you attack to support and offer the deep cross.

If you apply overlap - the winger will hold the ball up and the full back will run beyond them on the touchline

If you apply underlap - the winger will hold the ball up and the full back will run beyond them on the inside.

my original point was about the instruction to look for the underlap. i'm not talking about the underlap itself but rather the instruction to look for the underlap so it make sense for only wingers to have this instruction. Actually making the run is a different thing altogether

Edited October 13, 2017 by MoxeysTheName

[Cougar2010]

14 minutes ago, Sammy_CJ said:

When I watch United which I do a lot as I am a fan it always seems to me as though the other players will actively look to get the ball to Pogba as much as is sensible to do so. he seems to be the one picking the ball up from the defenders and moving the ball through the midfield. I guess that is like the playmaker discription as far as FM goes. Roaming playmaker would seem to fit...? i dont see as much of Coutinho or Eriksen but im sure its similar in that they are the focus.. most touches in oppo half and so on.. 

Thinking about it he perhaps is doing a bit more of that in the Man Utd team.

As with all roles in RL the lines become much more blurred and what a player is asked to do can vary from match to match.

Aside from that though the thread isn't about Pogba and his role its whether playmakers should have the shooting instruction locked to shoot less often.  Much like attributes I think in a lot of cases it comes down to opinion and you'll always have people with different opinions.  SI will never please everyone and no-one will ever be happy with all of SIs decisions.

[westy8chimp]

11 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

SI will never please everyone and no-one will ever be happy with all of SIs decisions.

It's going on too long but cant resist responding to this. Just to say ... if that's the case, isn't the path of least resistance to leave it unlocked... each manager can then leave it as is or say shoot less or more. Seems logical to me

[MBarbaric]

34 minutes ago, apvmoreira said:

Transitions its the most important aspect of tactics and the most complex to replicate, and maybe its why SI does not have 2 sets of tactics, one for offense and one for the defensive stance, complemented by transitions tactics, again one for attack and one for defense.

3

this is very wrong and started to spread like a plague recently in tactics subforum. the most important part of the game, in tactics sense, is positional attacks (the way the team creates solutions to enter the attacking third once the possession is consolidated in the middle third) and positional defence (chose defensive organization the team uses against opposition positional attacks).

Transition is simply a phase of play between these two principal phases. It is important, at times very important especially for lesser teams, but simply the time the team spends during the transition phase is minor compared to two more important phases. 

That being said, transitions have their peculiarities: 

transition from defence in attack-AKA counter attack- teams very often have well developed schemes of play in these situations, especially the lesser teams that are forced to defend for majority of the match. in early phase of attacking transition these are primarily:

-the key men that they look to link with upon regaining possession. this can be a strong striker that is able to fend of opposition defenders and buy time for other players to get further up the pitch. A press resistant player that is able to dribble through the opposition pressing, a quick player that his team mates look to reach with a direct pass into space. depending on type of players in the squad a team might want to work the ball into space or into feet. 

In the final phase of the attacking transition the teams use different strategies to create space. These are runs designed to drag away opposition from the corridor in which is the man on the ball and so on.

during the defensive (aka negative transition) teams usually use two approaches. 

-various degrees of counter pressing

-and delaying strategy

counter pressing is what Klopp and lot of, usually, dominant teams use and you see it clearly watching any premier league match.

delaying is a bit more subtle strategy that consists of usually few designated player(s) in the team who position themselves in such manner to direct opposition into less dangerous areas of the pitch preventing the opposition from advancing quickly up the pitch thus allowing the team on defence to get into their defensive shape. A tactical foul is very common in this phase.

To make it short, it is quite comprehensive thing that would be great to have in the game. However, it would be a can of worms if it was done before proper defensive phase is implemented in the game.

 

[Cougar2010]

6 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

It's going on too long but cant resist responding to this. Just to say ... if that's the case, isn't the path of least resistance to leave it unlocked... each manager can then leave it as is or say shoot less or more. Seems logical to me

If you carried that on throughout all the roles and instructions you wouldn't have any roles, you would just have totally open instructions for each position which is what you had before the tactics creator.

Thats clearly the wrong choice as there are various generic & specialist roles within football.  The creator replicates that its just that around the edges peoples opinions differ as to what instructions they should have.  Generally people seem to be agreed on 80/90% of the instructions its just the odd few where there is a difference. 

[Michael Zorc]

Taking a couple of years off FM while I wait for SI to improve the defensive options available to us.

Just no longer prepared to put the time into the game until this is finally addressed and brought into the 21st century.

See you all in 2019. 

[MHovel]

7 hours ago, BigRoboCrouch said:

Jesus Christ, you are one of the biggest shills i've ever seen who'll blindly accept anything, as any criticism is "negativity wave". God forbid people use their brain to make some constructive criticism, right???

You can already see the reason why he made such comment, leaking SI *** and getting what he was trying to get with his comment (which also include provocation in this thread that made this whole escalation).

I didn't read all his way conversation with Ikork maybe Ilkork and him get's too passionate but his "negative wave" is just wrong no matter how you look at it, it's irritate me that someone think that way and being so narrow minded.

 

19 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

We haven't even seen the engine so far (apart from a couple of very short snippets), so  how you can make an assumption like that from the videos we HAVE seen is utterly beyond me. 

FM is turning into one of those games that people will NEVER be satisfied with. Yes, it's a simulation, but despite what Miles says, it'll never truly represent real football (and it's better for it, the majority of your average football match is an error strewn mess), it's a computer game with the core ethos of picking a team, a tactic, and buying/selling players. If more people treated it for what it is, they'd get far more enjoyment out of it. Yes, there's flaws, and the people who constructively identify them help the game grow, but sometimes the expectations are way more unrealistic than the perception of what the game is. 

Again, you are ignoring the fact that we, the "loyal fmer's" already have an history and already pre ordered and have been there already.

It's not like by one day "FM turned into one of those games where people will never be satisfies", it's always been like that, and it's not only in FM, it's in every thing in RL, WAKE the **** UP kid.

A computer game is something the human able to fix, not easy to, but you still able to fix it.

Instead, in order to promote sales (or to milk gamers) they are adding "features" which is welcome, but if you go around FEEDBACKS, negative and positive, you might find the same experience the users suffer.

Yes, users trying to help improving the game, but it's time for SI to tell us the users if there is any point to provide them PKM's on the same bugs in every year (such as GK cannot hanle the ball, full backs get tones of assists, because Arbeloa is the new Dani Alves).

GK consistently cannot catch balls or sending them to corner.

defenders passing the ball back to corner (when there are no pressure).

those bugs are here from 15, are they going to be fixed? let's play the demo to find out.

TBH, if they cannot fix those major basic issue that ruins the user experience in 3 years, they can fix it in 1? I doubt, and i will be very glad to be proven as being wrong and i will apology for that publicly in the forums.

 

Yes, I might sound too harsh to you @dagenham_dave but you "respectfully" deserved it.

 

 

[Icy]

I like the changes and additions, but still missing something very important, that is a graphical representation of players positions both when in attack and in defense based on formation, team shape, mentality, roles and PI. It would help to all those struggling to understand what can they expect from their tactics.

Something similar to the old with/without ball in the old tactics screens but just as graphical representation.

That way we could try to have different formations in defense and attack using the tools we already have.

[shirajzl]

18 hours ago, Barside said:

FMT is still looked down upon, no idea why anyone who bemoans the depth of full sim mode & wants to relive the less demanding days of past CM/FM experiences would not play FMT, the only reason I can think of is the lack of an editor & that IMHO has to be a number 1 priority as it coudl see more angry at sim mode players move to the game mode which already provides the experience they want.

I know loads of people who still, to this day, look down upon FMT and yet they hate every layer of complexity that's been added to full FM over the last few years and they delegate basically everything to assistant manager. They're forcing FMT experience into full FM because playing the actual FMT is beneath them. Baffling.

[upthetoon]

looks impressive.

but I feel is the only way to know SI is making steps forward, is when the AI improves. in terms of using tactics and squad management.

right now, even LLM management is quite easy and you can go on a consecutive promotion fairly easily.

 

[yonko]

On October 12, 2017 at 08:22, A.Pierfrancesco said:

So basically a inverted winger is a Inside Forward into the ML/R spot. The mezzala is a kind of Box-To-Box with less defensive responsabilities but that will occupy the half space in the final third. I can not see the sense of having a Trequartista on the flanks, I've never seen one IRL. Giving the opportunity to underlap is quite intersting, especially when you use a winger and an IWB, the IWB will underlap the Winger dragging out a defender or offering a possible passing opportunity. Any news about some fixes on the role like the Half Back?  

Messi at AMR 

[theballstopshere]

2 hours ago, Michael Zorc said:

Taking a couple of years off FM while I wait for SI to improve the defensive options available to us.

Just no longer prepared to put the time into the game until this is finally addressed and brought into the 21st century.

See you all in 2019. 

I am done with this game for now too. I can't spare the thought of playing a football management game (that prides itself on real world similarity) that still has a lot to catch up on with regards to modern football tactics. 

It just feels like I am playing a very flawed football management game, when I want so much to be able to replicate modern football tactics with it.

In fact, out of 10 points being a 100% match (which is impossible), I don't think SI is even a 5 at this moment. 

I have spent enough time on this game. Time to stop wasting my time. 

[DragonAndLance]

I think its fair to say people are being too negative when they say they're done with fm2018 before even trying it lol... and not even trying the demo. 

Edited October 13, 2017 by DragonAndLance

[Guest El Payaso]

2 hours ago, shirajzl said:

I know loads of people who still, to this day, look down upon FMT and yet they hate every layer of complexity that's been added to full FM over the last few years and they delegate basically everything to assistant manager. They're forcing FMT experience into full FM because playing the actual FMT is beneath them. Baffling.

Maybe the full game should be made so that the ability to delegate everything would actually be removed or that you would be punished for it in long run. That would make those kind of players go to touch version or actually force them to pay a little bit of effort in terms of understanding how things work. 

To do fairly well on FM currently requires 1-5 minute session with tactics and actually reading what the players have to say about things, nothing more. And that's not too demanding for anyone. 

Human as a specie is always going to be sort a lazy one and because of that I feel that the whole 'delegate everything' was one of the most stupid decisions that they've done with the game during the recent years. By that even majority of the players will always be delegating things to the capable staff that is really easy to obtain and by that never learning to do these things themselves. (A little bit like never teaching a baby to do their thing and instead using someone capable to clear their mess).

[theballstopshere]

7 minutes ago, DragonAndLance said:

I think its fair to say people are being too negative when they say they're done with fm2018 before even trying it lol... and not even trying the demo. 

Well I am still keeping my eyes peeled for more updates and hoping maybe perhaps the match engine will address some of the tactical issues. 

But it is quite simple actually. The tactic video update said a lot but did not address the problems of stale 90s tactics.

 If a football management simulation game can't even get the most basic in shape (tactics, AI, match engine), is there even a need to try the demo?

Mind you, we are not talking about the peripheral stuff but the main thrust of the game.  

I don't see how I can play a football manager game when I can't get even close to the tactical realism of the modern game. 

[yonko]

3 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

this is very wrong and started to spread like a plague recently in tactics subforum. the most important part of the game, in tactics sense, is positional attacks (the way the team creates solutions to enter the attacking third once the possession is consolidated in the middle third) and positional defence (chose defensive organization the team uses against opposition positional attacks).

Transition is simply a phase of play between these two principal phases. It is important, at times very important especially for lesser teams, but simply the time the team spends during the transition phase is minor compared to two more important phases. 

That being said, transitions have their peculiarities: 

transition from defence in attack-AKA counter attack- teams very often have well developed schemes of play in these situations, especially the lesser teams that are forced to defend for majority of the match. in early phase of attacking transition these are primarily:

-the key men that they look to link with upon regaining possession. this can be a strong striker that is able to fend of opposition defenders and buy time for other players to get further up the pitch. A press resistant player that is able to dribble through the opposition pressing, a quick player that his team mates look to reach with a direct pass into space. depending on type of players in the squad a team might want to work the ball into space or into feet. 

In the final phase of the attacking transition the teams use different strategies to create space. These are runs designed to drag away opposition from the corridor in which is the man on the ball and so on.

during the defensive (aka negative transition) teams usually use two approaches. 

-various degrees of counter pressing

-and delaying strategy

counter pressing is what Klopp and lot of, usually, dominant teams use and you see it clearly watching any premier league match.

delaying is a bit more subtle strategy that consists of usually few designated player(s) in the team who position themselves in such manner to direct opposition into less dangerous areas of the pitch preventing the opposition from advancing quickly up the pitch thus allowing the team on defence to get into their defensive shape. A tactical foul is very common in this phase.

To make it short, it is quite comprehensive thing that would be great to have in the game. However, it would be a can of worms if it was done before proper defensive phase is implemented in the game.

 

I strongly disagree with you.

Transition is the most important phase of modern football. A team with superior transitional game wouldn't need to worry about positional attack because they will achieve their target (scoring a goal or creating chance to score a goal) way before the opposition can set up their defense to stop the transition, thus requiring the attacking team to switch to positional attack. 

I can also show you this from a different point of view. A positional attack is important only because if done incorrectly or mistake is made, then you can get punished on the transitional phase. A team can be brilliant at setting up defense or positional attacks, but if that same team is horrible at transition, it will lose most matches because they will get caught out and never be able to set up their excellent defense or positional attack. And transitions are inevitable in the game.

Transitions have been the most important aspect of modern football for the last 15-20 years my friend. And most people fail to recognize that.

[apvmoreira]

5 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

this is very wrong and started to spread like a plague recently in tactics subforum. the most important part of the game, in tactics sense, is positional attacks (the way the team creates solutions to enter the attacking third once the possession is consolidated in the middle third) and positional defence (chose defensive organization the team uses against opposition positional attacks).

Transition is simply a phase of play between these two principal phases. It is important, at times very important especially for lesser teams, but simply the time the team spends during the transition phase is minor compared to two more important phases. 

That being said, transitions have their peculiarities: 

transition from defence in attack-AKA counter attack- teams very often have well developed schemes of play in these situations, especially the lesser teams that are forced to defend for majority of the match. in early phase of attacking transition these are primarily:

-the key men that they look to link with upon regaining possession. this can be a strong striker that is able to fend of opposition defenders and buy time for other players to get further up the pitch. A press resistant player that is able to dribble through the opposition pressing, a quick player that his team mates look to reach with a direct pass into space. depending on type of players in the squad a team might want to work the ball into space or into feet. 

In the final phase of the attacking transition the teams use different strategies to create space. These are runs designed to drag away opposition from the corridor in which is the man on the ball and so on.

during the defensive (aka negative transition) teams usually use two approaches. 

-various degrees of counter pressing

-and delaying strategy

counter pressing is what Klopp and lot of, usually, dominant teams use and you see it clearly watching any premier league match.

delaying is a bit more subtle strategy that consists of usually few designated player(s) in the team who position themselves in such manner to direct opposition into less dangerous areas of the pitch preventing the opposition from advancing quickly up the pitch thus allowing the team on defence to get into their defensive shape. A tactical foul is very common in this phase.

To make it short, it is quite comprehensive thing that would be great to have in the game. However, it would be a can of worms if it was done before proper defensive phase is implemented in the game.

 

Well, after reading your wise words i have to say that agree that positional attack is important, but in my opinion, it's not a plague, it's a different way of seeing football. Attacking transitions, or counter as you say, is used by all team to get some leverage against big or small teams.

If i want to counter the Klopp pressing, Guardiola pressing or whatever the opponent is trying to do to take the ball from you, i need to have a very oiled attacking transition to skip the traps he makes and then i have two choices: or i continue the counter attack or i don't see an advantage an i go to positional attack. And if you see Italian football, its a must in their defensive mentality: 3 touches and the ball is on the striker.

 

Regarding to the defensive transition, or negative as you call it, what you have written is true and for me its not whats matters, but what makes the difference.

 

I would like to state that Portuguese football lives a lot from this transitions, maybe that's why its important to me and not to other football cultures.

 

[MBarbaric]

1 hour ago, yonko said:

Transition is the most important phase of modern football. A team with superior transitional game wouldn't need to worry about positional attack because they will achieve their target (scoring a goal or creating chance to score a goal) way before the opposition can set up their defense to stop the transition, thus requiring the attacking team to switch to positional attack. 

I think we have different transitions in mind. A transition is progression from one third of the field to another (preferrably, closer to opposition goal) and leads to a positional attack once the team stabilises possession in the middle third.

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by MBarbaric

[apvmoreira]

1 hour ago, yonko said:

I strongly disagree with you.

Transition is the most important phase of modern football. A team with superior transitional game wouldn't need to worry about positional attack because they will achieve their target (scoring a goal or creating chance to score a goal) way before the opposition can set up their defense to stop the transition, thus requiring the attacking team to switch to positional attack. 

I can also show you this from a different point of view. A positional attack is important only because if done incorrectly or mistake is made, then you can get punished on the transitional phase. A team can be brilliant at setting up defense or positional attacks, but if that same team is horrible at transition, it will lose most matches because they will get caught out and never be able to set up their excellent defense or positional attack. And transitions are inevitable in the game.

Transitions have been the most important aspect of modern football for the last 15-20 years my friend. And most people fail to recognize that.

And i even see defensive transition more important than the attacking one.

[apvmoreira]

2 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

I think we have different transitions in mind. A transition is progression from one third of the field to another (preferrably, closer to opposition goal) and leads to a positional attack once the team stabilises possession in the middle third.

But even positional attacks need to have a transition, right? You are closing the transition to be used only in counters, and that's not what i've said.

 

When Modric is defending he has one role that Zidane makes him to have. When Real recoves the ball, Modric knows that he needs to do certain tasks to provide the ball as fast as he can to the attackers, the attacking transition. Even if its made 1km/h!

And the same applies to the defensive transition. Modric knows which player he needs to press, or what zone he needs to be to defend, and the way he gets to that task is the defensive transition.

 

Having that in FM would enable us to create momentous that would make the difference in tactics.