Determination

[herne79]

If you've ever read the FAQs section at the top of this forum (shame on you if you haven't ) or seen people ask & answer questions about players' Determination attribute, the message has pretty much always been that Determination doesn't have a direct impact on Training and player development.  It's an attribute that we've usually only associated with in match performance.

However I can now update and correct that position.  @Seb Wassell (works for SI and is one of the areas of the game he's specifically responsible for) has confirmed that for FM17 changes were made to how the progression calculation is derived.  "Determination, along with a large number of other factors, is part of the progression calculation and directly impacts how well a player will train for that month" (Seb's exact words).

It should also be reiterated that Determination has always been a factor in player progression, so if you're playing FM16 or earlier it's something useful to have there as well.  To clarify - the way the overall under the hood progression module works is what has changed.

So there we have it.  We can now safely say that Determination has a direct impact on how well a player trains.  I'll be updating the FAQs accordingly.

Thanks Seb.

[enigmatic]

This probably does explain why a couple of my supposedly very professional players reportedly have issues with training workload (had assumed they either had ultra-low ambition or age/jadedness issues)

I understand SI wants to keep some aspects of the game a mystery, but I do wish they'd communicate stuff like this better, especially when in lieu of more detailed information on what attributes do and definitely don't do it's long-term players - sometimes apparently with shared misconceptions - that do most of the interpreting for newbies.

Same goes for stuff that should be in manuals but ends up being a mixture of third party guesswork and SI employees kindly correcting people on forums, like what attributes are needed for Data Analysts (none, apparently, though I do wonder whether some mental ones have indirect effects on derived variables like "squad personality" etc...)

I'm now questioning other stuff which seems to be conventional wisdom on the forums with people who definitely know a lot about the game including "jumping" not affecting goalkeepers (except if they're trying to head the ball) because that's what the "aerial ability" attribute is for (I believe an SI tooltip hints otherwise)

[Armistice]

Thanks herne. 

[jeid2000]

Quick, everyone sign 20 determination players as everyone will think this is most important now!

[Jimbokav1971]

4 hours ago, herne79 said:

If you've ever read the FAQs section at the top of this forum (shame on you if you haven't ) or seen people ask & answer questions about players' Determination attribute, the message has pretty much always been that Determination doesn't have a direct impact on Training and player development.  It's an attribute that we've usually only associated with in match performance.

However I can now update and correct that position.  @Seb Wassell (works for SI and is one of the areas of the game he's specifically responsible for) has confirmed that for FM17 changes were made to how the progression calculation is derived.  "Determination, along with a large number of other factors, is part of the progression calculation and directly impacts how well a player will train for that month" (Seb's exact words).

It should also be reiterated that Determination has always been a factor in player progression, so if you're playing FM16 or earlier it's something useful to have there as well.  To clarify - the way the overall under the hood progression module works is what has changed.

So there we have it.  We can now safely say that Determination has a direct impact on how well a player trains.  I'll be updating the FAQs accordingly.

Thanks Seb.

Please please please for the love of God don't let's do this again. 

We are not saying that it doesn't have any impact on player progression, (because we know that it does have a very slight impact based on the numerous experiments that have been run time and time and time and time again). What we are saying is that in comparison to Professionalism for example, the impact that determination has on player development is tiny. And by tiny I actually mean minuscule. So minuscule in fact as to make it largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. 

[Shrewnaldo]

A few questions then:

 

1. You say that FM17 has changed to make Determination one of the factors in development but then say "it should also be reiterated that Determination has always been a factor in player progression", which is entirely contradictory.  Can you advise if the pre-FM17 text is a typo?  This would certainly match the advice to date, and the myriad of extensive testing

 

2. Is it possible to get anything more useful than "along with a large number of other factors, is part of the progression calculation" because, frankly, that is singularly unhelpful?  How much influence?  Is it only an influence over the PPM learning as has been suggested?  Does it influence training regardless of PPM learning?  What has more influence - determination or professionalism?  In what ratio?  What other attributes, if any?  Is determination only linked to progression in the manner in which it may or may not affect the player's morale, thereby having an indirect effect?

 

It would be really very useful if these sorts of mechanics were actually explained.

[Jimbokav1971]

@Shrewnaldo Shame on you. You have just cost me a tea run. 

Stop messing about and show us some data that you might just happen to have to hand. 

[herne79]

6 minutes ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

Please please please for the love of God don't let's do this again. 

We are not saying that it doesn't have any impact on player progression, (because we know that it does have a very slight impact based on the numerous experiments that have been run time and time and time and time again). What we are saying is that in comparison to Professionalism for example, the impact that determination has on player development is tiny. And by tiny I actually mean minuscule. So minuscule in fact as to make it largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. 

Except now we have the person at SI who is specifically responsible for this area of the game telling us that the way in which the under the hood progression module works has been changed.

And when that same person also tells us that Determination is one of many factors that directly impacts player progression, we should probably take notice.  I even double and triple checked it with Seb because of the history of this attribute before posting here.

Only SI know what weightings are attached to each factor and I doubt that's something they'll share.

However, as you and @Shrewnaldo seem to want more information, and I have the offer from @Seb Wassell to contribute if needed, I'll give him a poke and see if he's able to share anything further.

[Shrewnaldo]

Excellent, @herne79, more information can only be a positive thing

[Jimbokav1971]

@herne79& @Seb Wassell 

Do you know what the problem here is? The problem is that the statement that you have issued on behalf of Seb is technically accurate. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that determination has a direct impact on player progression, There is no doubt about it at all. Not even a little bit of doubt. The problem is that it doesn't significantly do so to any great degree at all so rather than destroy what is one of the biggest urban myths with regards to FM, all this thread does is muddy the already murky waters again for those who don't know better. 

If @Seb Wassell suggests that it has a significant impact then I'm afraid he needs to head right on over to the bugs forum because if that's the way it's intended to work, it certainly does not. The opening post and my post are both accurate. The only difference is that your post suggests and even implies that determination is an important and dare I say even key attribute in player development. This is absolutely not the case.

[herne79]

9 minutes ago, Shrewnaldo said:

1. You say that FM17 has changed to make Determination one of the factors in development but then say "it should also be reiterated that Determination has always been a factor in player progression", which is entirely contradictory.  Can you advise if the pre-FM17 text is a typo?  This would certainly match the advice to date, and the myriad of extensive testing

Just to be clear, I didn't say that.  I said:

4 hours ago, herne79 said:

for FM17 changes were made to how the progression calculation is derived <snip> the way the overall under the hood progression module works is what has changed.

Don't get me wrong, this is as much a surprise to me as it is to you, hence the triple check before posting.

Lets see how Seb is able to fill in the blanks.

[noikeee]

Just to throw another confusing element into this discussion, does ambition still weigh on training progression, and does it weigh more than determination, and/or rival professionalism as a key (hidden) attribute ... ?

[Rashidi]

I think we are treating things too simplistically. Granted I am inferring things based on the discussion atm, but I am also including some of my own observations.

A players personality is still an important trigger for player development. Most personality traits have some level of determination in them, some do not, but its been my experience that those that do in good doses usually perform well in training.  However these aren't the only factors. And this is where Determination as an attribute starts to kick in.  A players development is also a function of playing time, quality of playing time, and performance. Here things start getting muddled and I believe this is where determination begins to kick in. In a team of 11 players we have to look at the whole team and how it does, players with good determination help performances especially those that are close and tight. If a team does well, the players with good determination n the right personality may see a knock on effect in training development, i.e., the carry a small temporary bonus  to training development.

I have believed that to be the case since FM15, however I also noticed that even my Fairly Determined players are developing as fast as my professional and in some cases even better than them. In FM15 the relationship was almost direct, in FM17 I began noticing certain anomalies in training, which I couldn't quite comfortably place on "professionalism's shoulders".

In this image, I have a striker who is around 20 years old who is fairly determined, has played regular games in top flight football and has generated 7.26 av rating for the season. His growth this season has stalled, his development growth almost seems in line. His best development occured the previous season when his performances bordered on 8 average rating.  Now this isn't really enough for a considered conclusion because tbf we need to compare 5 professional personalities with 5 non professionals with high determination over a few seasons and hope that we win almost every match that they play in.

This player may seem anomalous, in a group of resolute and professional players. He has the best growth in the team and he is outperforming even my model professionals. If I were to look over my entire team, he stands at the peak, while the rest seem to be playing catch up. I also noticed that when he was 17-18 his determination was only 11,  3 seasons later his determination was 15 without tutoring. During the period his determination rose, so did his other attributes. Determination is the green line. Whats funny is that he did a lot better than my professionals and my model professionals which annoyed the living daylights out of me.

Determination + Personality is the combination that I think leads to good training potential provided everything else is good. Its like looking for a 5 star coach, you need a combination of attributes to kick in for the 5 stars to generate. I believe the same is the case for training. You need a combination of factors that include determination, personality, playing time, facilities, quality of playing time, performances.  Before a certain age, a player needs facilities, coaching etc, once he. passes a certain age he needs game time, and the performances in these matches have a knock on effect on his training as well.  Do I believe its pure personality/professionalism that drive training, no. I believe its a combination much like looking for 5 star coaches that is influenced by their potential to develop in a certain way. 

So lets say a player has X Professionalism Y Determination and Z Ambition. Then lets say the team is doing well, he is performing well, Then X+Y+Z + some bonus goes into driving his training. And this bonus is temporary. I think its a bit more apparent now than it was in FM16 for instance, that would be the only way to explain my anomaly.

That's at least what I believe to be the case, and I wait to be corrected. 

 

 

[Guimy]

Given that I replicated @Shrewnaldo's original research for FM15, FM16 and FM17, I'm rather interested to see where this all leads. I'd love a little looksy under the hood.

[Cleon]

I brought this up during the beta for FM17 and it had not changed, so be interesting to see in which patch these changes were made? I had direct discussion with a few of SI staff about it and Seb was one of them. The only thing it impacted on directly was PPM's. He didn't know off hand so even had to go and check with someone. When pushed for more specifics like @Shrewnaldo mentions above though, no-one really knew what really happens under the hood and couldn't talk about specifics because it was unclear.

The thing is, you get told one thing then they say something else in the next reply. No wonder there is so much confusion and frustration. Also doesn't help when they make changes and don't tell anyone and expect you to know things have changed.

I think what could be happening here is determination doesn't directly impact player development but is used for PPM learning and for when a player declines.  I remember Riz who designed the training module say that Determination, along with Professionalism, Nat Fit and Injury Proneness, determine when a player declines. So, maybe Determination is not related to training per se, but it does seem to be somehow related to decline.

[Cleon]

6 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I think we are treating things too simplistically. Granted I am inferring things based on the discussion atm, but I am also including some of my own observations.

A players personality is still an important trigger for player development. Most personality traits have some level of determination in them, some do not, but its been my experience that those that do in good doses usually perform well in training.  However these aren't the only factors. And this is where Determination as an attribute starts to kick in.  A players development is also a function of playing time, quality of playing time, and performance. Here things start getting muddled and I believe this is where determination begins to kick in. In a team of 11 players we have to look at the whole team and how it does, players with good determination help performances especially those that are close and tight. If a team does well, the players with good determination n the right personality may see a knock on effect in training development, i.e., the carry a small temporary bonus  to training development.

I have believed that to be the case since FM15, however I also noticed that even my Fairly Determined players are developing as fast as my professional and in some cases even better than them. In FM15 the relationship was almost direct, in FM17 I began noticing certain anomalies in training, which I couldn't quite comfortably place on "professionalism's shoulders".

In this image, I have a striker who is around 20 years old who is fairly determined, has played regular games in top flight football and has generated 7.26 av rating for the season. His growth this season has stalled, his development growth almost seems in line. His best development occured the previous season when his performances bordered on 8 average rating.  Now this isn't really enough for a considered conclusion because tbf we need to compare 5 professional personalities with 5 non professionals with high determination over a few seasons and hope that we win almost every match that they play in.

This player may seem anomalous, in a group of resolute and professional players. He has the best growth in the team and he is outperforming even my model professionals. If I were to look over my entire team, he stands at the peak, while the rest seem to be playing catch up. I also noticed that when he was 17-18 his determination was only 11,  3 seasons later his determination was 15 without tutoring. During the period his determination rose, so did his other attributes. Determination is the green line. Whats funny is that he did a lot better than my professionals and my model professionals which annoyed the living daylights out of me.

Determination + Personality is the combination that I think leads to good training potential provided everything else is good. Its like looking for a 5 star coach, you need a combination of attributes to kick in for the 5 stars to generate. I believe the same is the case for training. You need a combination of factors that include determination, personality, playing time, facilities, quality of playing time, performances.  Before a certain age, a player needs facilities, coaching etc, once he. passes a certain age he needs game time, and the performances in these matches have a knock on effect on his training as well.  Do I believe its pure personality/professionalism that drive training, no. I believe its a combination much like looking for 5 star coaches that is influenced by their potential to develop in a certain way. 

So lets say a player has X Professionalism Y Determination and Z Ambition. Then lets say the team is doing well, he is performing well, Then X+Y+Z + some bonus goes into driving his training. And this bonus is temporary. I think its a bit more apparent now than it was in FM16 for instance, that would be the only way to explain my anomaly.

That's at least what I believe to be the case, and I wait to be corrected. 

 

 

Your players growth seems to have stalled because he has 13 attributes 15 or higher, this has always been the case because its much harder to raise higher attributes as its a much slower process from 15 upwards. Where as the season before he likely had none or only a few that high if he had his best development so far that season. Also remember some personality types overlap now since the changes in FM17 when the threshold was lowered etc. So even though he is classed as fairly determined he could also be fairly professional. This happens a lot now where two players can be identical and they'll have different personality descriptions even if all hidden attributes are the same. It's much more common since the personality changes for FM17 to see this happen compared to previous versions of the game.

[Rashidi]

Yes there is every likelihood that their personalities may overlap, what's interesting for me is what Seb posted with respect to Progression Factors. It would now seem that Determination is the over-riding factor that affects development along with a host of other factors. At least for me, nothing much has changed, since I have always placed a high priority on Determination when I recruit players. Where they are low, they need to have a decent personality, the lowest for me would be fairly determined or balanced. 

[j_morrissey1990]

Sorry, but why are calculations like player development not released by SI?

How does it benifit them having calcultions like this and asking price being shrowded in mystery?

We can see a players attributes like determination given a number 1-20, why not show the hidden attributes by default?

 

In what way is it more realistic that you can see what a players determination is and not loyalty or temperment?

I'd say after 1 game of five a sides your likely to know what someone's temperment is.

 

Anyhow I think SI should:

 

• Release calculations for:
  • Asking Price
  • Player development factors
  • Youth Intake PA/CA factors
• Make player personality hidden attributes visible

 
 

 

[Shrewnaldo]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

Yes there is every likelihood that their personalities may overlap, what's interesting for me is what Seb posted with respect to Progression Factors. It would now seem that Determination is the over-riding factor that affects development along with a host of other factors. At least for me, nothing much has changed, since I have always placed a high priority on Determination when I recruit players. Where they are low, they need to have a decent personality, the lowest for me would be fairly determined or balanced. 

Sorry Daljit, I don't wish to be rude but it's this sort of stuff which drives folk crazy. In this thread we've had an OP which says determination is one of many *direct* factors which affects some sort of development mechanism which has not been explained, which may be new to fm17 and which, from twitter discussions, may in fact be new to a patch halfway through fm17.

 

We haven't been told what other factors may also influence this unexplainable development mechanism but we're guessing it's professionalism along with game time, facilities, coach quality and morale. Right?

 

Then you give an anecdote explaining why you think determination is an influence in which you describe an *indirect* effect only - ie that players with high determination do better on the pitch, get more game time and have higher morale. The game time and the morale are direct factors, the determination is indirect.

 

And now you post saying that "determination is the over-riding factor" with no explanation of where that belief has come from, indeed it contradicts what has been said above and what all testing and (unreliable) anecdotal evidence would suggest.

 

It really drives people crazy that something which seems to us to be a simple explanation for people who have created the sodding  game to tell us how they created one aspect of it. Instead it's left to mods to relay hearsay and personal opinion which contradicts itself and muddies the water, through no fault of the mods it should be said. 

 

It seems that @Seb Wassell is the key person to explain how it actually works (if he is allowed) and perhaps we should simply list specific questions, as I did above, and hope Seb takes the time to answer them.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, j_morrissey1990 said:

Sorry, but why are calculations like player development not released by SI?

How does it benifit them having calcultions like this and asking price being shrowded in mystery?

We can see a players attributes like determination given a number 1-20, why not show the hidden attributes by default?

 

In what way is it more realistic that you can see what a players determination is and not loyalty or temperment?

I'd say after 1 game of five a sides your likely to know what someone's temperment is.

 

Anyhow I think SI should:

 

• Release calculations for:
  • Asking Price
  • Player development factors
  • Youth Intake PA/CA factors
• Make player personality hidden attributes visible

 
 

 

The mechanism used under the hood aren't released because that simply encourages players to game the system & that's not how SI would like people to approach playing FM.

I've suggested that determination should be fully hidden & then have increased dynamic coach/scout feedback on the hidden attributes. I'd even go as far as removing the personality description when using attribute making & leave it to the user to assess a player's personality based on their in game behaviour.

[Rashidi]

1 hour ago, Shrewnaldo said:

And now you post saying that "determination is the over-riding factor

Well I have been saying Determination is the most important attribute in the game since FM17 took off.

Personally I do believe that way too many factors have made player development feel gamey. I mean it can't be as simple as Personality + game time = win. I know I am over simplifying it, but it was already too easy to begin with. And that has been my particular grievance with that facet of training. It is still too easy to produce hot shots in the game.

I have never liked Personality being too easy to find.  To tell you the truth the first time I stuck Personality into the filter for player training views, I actually felt as if I were cheating.

So while I can understand people's frustration I enjoy the mystery of whether it's "direct or indirect", and since I've started focusing on determination as a core attribute in nearly each save in FM17, it doesn't seem to affect me as much. I do feel that if Determination were hidden away then, player development could become a very mysterious ane contentious aspect of the game.

[Armistice]

1 hour ago, Barside said:

The mechanism used under the hood aren't released because that simply encourages players to game the system & that's not how SI would like people to approach playing FM.

I've suggested that determination should be fully hidden & then have increased dynamic coach/scout feedback on the hidden attributes. I'd even go as far as removing the personality description when using attribute making & leave it to the user to assess a player's personality based on their in game behaviour.

Not sure how it would benefit your regular FM player, most of them already have headaches over watching games and trying to figure out what is wrong in their tactics, then focusing on a certain player for a number of games to discover how good his Personality is would create more confusion and insecurity in the game.

[herne79]

Just a quick update:  Seb has replied to my PM I sent last night to say he's on this, so let's hang tough and wait for his advice.

[Seb Wassell]

13 hours ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

We are not saying that it doesn't have any impact on player progression, (because we know that it does have a very slight impact based on the numerous experiments that have been run time and time and time and time again). What we are saying is that in comparison to Professionalism for example, the impact that determination has on player development is tiny. And by tiny I actually mean minuscule. So minuscule in fact as to make it largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. 

For all intents and purposes Determination's impact on development is equal to that of Professionalism. 

13 hours ago, Shrewnaldo said:

1. You say that FM17 has changed to make Determination one of the factors in development but then say "it should also be reiterated that Determination has always been a factor in player progression", which is entirely contradictory.  Can you advise if the pre-FM17 text is a typo?  This would certainly match the advice to date, and the myriad of extensive testing

Determination has always been an important, direct factor in player development.

13 hours ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

@herne79& @Seb Wassell 

Do you know what the problem here is? The problem is that the statement that you have issued on behalf of Seb is technically accurate. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that determination has a direct impact on player progression, There is no doubt about it at all. Not even a little bit of doubt. The problem is that it doesn't significantly do so to any great degree at all so rather than destroy what is one of the biggest urban myths with regards to FM, all this thread does is muddy the already murky waters again for those who don't know better. 

If @Seb Wassell suggests that it has a significant impact then I'm afraid he needs to head right on over to the bugs forum because if that's the way it's intended to work, it certainly does not. The opening post and my post are both accurate. The only difference is that your post suggests and even implies that determination is an important and dare I say even key attribute in player development. This is absolutely not the case.

If you've some data that contradicts the fact that Determination is important please do head over to the bugs forum and get it posted, I'll take a look and see what is going on.

11 hours ago, noikeee said:

Just to throw another confusing element into this discussion, does ambition still weigh on training progression, and does it weigh more than determination, and/or rival professionalism as a key (hidden) attribute ... ?

Yes. For all intents and purposes the three have an equal impact.

4 hours ago, Cleon said:

I brought this up during the beta for FM17 and it had not changed, so be interesting to see in which patch these changes were made? I had direct discussion with a few of SI staff about it and Seb was one of them. The only thing it impacted on directly was PPM's. He didn't know off hand so even had to go and check with someone. When pushed for more specifics like @Shrewnaldo mentions above though, no-one really knew what really happens under the hood and couldn't talk about specifics because it was unclear.

I don't remember this? As far as I am aware I have never said that. If I have I was wrong. If asked I believe I would have said that Determination is an important factor in training development. 

In the private beta forum I believe we in fact mentioned that under the hood progression had changed - with the goal of seeing more Mario Balotelli types - for FM17. This was not introduced during an update, it has been present since the beginning of FM17. This change was to the progression module, not to Determination directly. 

Determination has always been important, in fact it is possibly less important now than it was before as more factors have been introduced meaning the overall impact of Determination is a smaller portion of the puzzle than it was previously.

Hopefully that answers the questions raised above. Anything else I can help with please do shout.

[noikeee]

5 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

Yes. For all intents and purposes the three have an equal impact.

Thanks for answering but this is very strange. For years the community has been saying professionalism is by far the one thing that matters most, and I vaguely recall there was even quite a few tests done by people that seemed to confirm this.

For example (this is FM16 but still):

https://strikerless.com/2016/07/19/what-drives-player-development-a-few-factors-you-probably-never-considered/

Clearly establishes direct proportionality for professionalism, but determination seems to be a bit less direct.

Admitedly, it's a small sample size.

[Seb Wassell]

1 minute ago, noikeee said:

Thanks for answering but this is very strange. For years the community has been saying professionalism is by far the one thing that matters most, and I vaguely recall there was even quite a few tests done by people that seemed to confirm this.

For example (this is FM16 but still):

https://strikerless.com/2016/07/19/what-drives-player-development-a-few-factors-you-probably-never-considered/

Clearly establishes direct proportionality for professionalism, but determination seems to be a bit less direct.

Admitedly, it's a small sample size.

Professionalism is/was indeed important. However the attributes do not work independently to one another. There is also a healthy slice of chance involved, 20/20/20 does not mean perfection will be achieved nor does it mean the results are perfectly reproducible each time. That combined with the small sample size means that the results here are likely unreliable.

It is worth nothing that the chance factor is now greater in FM17. There is also a large number of new variables involved in the equation. The goal here is to produce more varied player development.

[Guimy]

16 minutes ago, noikeee said:

Thanks for answering but this is very strange. For years the community has been saying professionalism is by far the one thing that matters most, and I vaguely recall there was even quite a few tests done by people that seemed to confirm this.

For example (this is FM16 but still):

https://strikerless.com/2016/07/19/what-drives-player-development-a-few-factors-you-probably-never-considered/

Clearly establishes direct proportionality for professionalism, but determination seems to be a bit less direct.

Admitedly, it's a small sample size.

I actually redid that experiment for FM17. https://strikerless.com/2017/05/20/what-drives-player-development-dispelling-the-determination-work-rate-myth/

The values were equal every time, except for 1 attribute.

This was the Professionalism group.

In a spider graph.

This is the determination group.

In a spider graph.

Comparing the 20 attributes.

Admittedly, small groups, but hey ho, I have a life and statistics and mathematics still suck.

[noikeee]

8 minutes ago, Guimy said:

I actually redid that experiment for FM17. https://strikerless.com/2017/05/20/what-drives-player-development-dispelling-the-determination-work-rate-myth/

The values were equal every time, except for 1 attribute.

This was the Professionalism group.

In a spider graph.

This is the determination group.

In a spider graph.

Comparing the 20 attributes.

Admittedly, small groups, but hey ho, I have a life and statistics and mathematics still suck.

Perhaps it's something about the players at that particular stage of development and/or with that particularly neutral personality (in the other attributes)? Or even about the club or level of competition they're at?

[Shrewnaldo]

51 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

For all intents and purposes Determination's impact on development is equal to that of Professionalism.

Determination has always been an important, direct factor in player development.

If you've some data that contradicts the fact that Determination is important please do head over to the bugs forum and get it posted, I'll take a look and see what is going on

When you say always, this completely contradicts the message for quote some time but also significant levels of testing which were conducted. Can understand small sampling being dismissed as unreliable but here was an old bit of analysis using extracted data from over 4000 newgens https://web.archive.org/web/20160322151149/http://www.thedugout.net/community/showthread.php?t=75695

 

As you can see, it matches the smaller sample analysis that Determination is irrelevant and professionalism is key (along with some other interesting conclusions)

 

So is the message that this analysis is wrong? Or that it's right and the lack of influence from determination is/was a bug?  

[Seb Wassell]

10 minutes ago, Guimy said:

and statistics and mathematics still suck.

Blasphemy! 

Appreciate the effort in this @Guimy

Regarding the attribute development - where CA goes in terms of attributes is largely defined by training and the player not by the development itself. As such attribute spread is largely irrelevant to this discussion. 

Looking at your numbers CA gain only differs for Pro14, Pro20 and Det14, Det20. At the lower end CA gain is the same. With the new system in mind it looks to me like those two sets of players have fallen on vastly different ends of the chance scale. It is perfectly possible for two identical players to develop very differently under the new system.

[Seb Wassell]

9 minutes ago, Shrewnaldo said:

When you say always, this completely contradicts the message for quote some time but also significant levels of testing which were conducted. Can understand small sampling being dismissed as unreliable but here was an old bit of analysis using extracted data from over 4000 newgens https://web.archive.org/web/20160322151149/http://www.thedugout.net/community/showthread.php?t=75695

 

As you can see, it matches the smaller sample analysis that Determination is irrelevant and professionalism is the key (along with some other interesting conclusions)

 

So is the message that this analysis is wrong? Or that it's right and the lack of influence from determination is/was a bug?  

Taking a quick look at that there seems to be quite a few false positives, specifically Acceleration etc. as factors. It also highlights Ambition as the key, which disagrees with the aforementioned Professionalism. The fact that this was done in PA brackets and accounts for only 30% of the recorded results also suggests that isolating the factors is not necessarily reliable.

I couldn't fully answer your question without making an assumption, but I would like to try my best to get the correct information out there now. Any data proving that Determination has no impact in FM17 is a bug and should be uploaded as such for us to take a look at.

[jeid2000]

Is there any data you can share with us that proves what you're saying other than your position on the team? OR at least, some variables we could test that would provide some results that may make this information more reliable?

Not sure this thread has cleared anything up as it stands.

[Guimy]

26 minutes ago, noikeee said:

Perhaps it's something about the players at that particular stage of development and/or with that particularly neutral personality (in the other attributes)? Or even about the club or level of competition they're at?

Same personalities and positions, none saw first team action or were injured  (FMRTE), all at the same club. Tried to keep the number of influential variables contained. 

[Guimy]

16 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

Blasphemy! 

Appreciate the effort in this @Guimy

Regarding the attribute development - where CA goes in terms of attributes is largely defined by training and the player not by the development itself. As such attribute spread is largely irrelevant to this discussion. 

Looking at your numbers CA gain only differs for Pro14, Pro20 and Det14, Det20. At the lower end CA gain is the same. With the new system in mind it looks to me like those two sets of players have fallen on vastly different ends of the chance scale. It is perfectly possible for two identical players to develop very differently under the new system.

I am an Alpha sciences guy, not a Béta. 😉

The aim was to show that Professionalism is the driving factor behind development instead of Determination. The Professionalism group definitely showed greater progress with Determination levels of 10.

[Shrewnaldo]

30 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

Taking a quick look at that there seems to be quite a few false positives, specifically Acceleration etc. as factors. It also highlights Ambition as the key, which disagrees with the aforementioned Professionalism. The fact that this was done in PA brackets and accounts for only 30% of the recorded results also suggests that isolating the factors is not necessarily reliable.

I couldn't fully answer your question without making an assumption, but I would like to try my best to get the correct information out there now. Any data proving that Determination has no impact in FM17 is a bug and should be uploaded as such for us to take a look at.

We discussed that ambition thing at the time and my thoughts were that more ambitious players forced moves to bigger clubs with higher rep matches and better facilities, thereby having an indirect effect albeit a clearly significant one. Is this the way it works or is ambition also rolled into this direct calculation?

 

I appreciate it won't work like this but, for simplification in a way that could be interpreted by players, would it be fair to say something like "development = PA x professionalism x determination x morale x match condition x experience from 1st team matches (scaled by reputation of those matches) x quality of facilities x quality of coaching x luck"? 

 

Anything else?

 

And then the available surplus CA generated by that training performance is "spent" on attributes according to the player's natural positions and training regimes? 

[Seb Wassell]

42 minutes ago, Guimy said:

I am an Alpha sciences guy, not a Béta. 😉

The aim was to show that Professionalism is the driving factor behind development instead of Determination. The Professionalism group definitely showed greater progress with Determination levels of 10.

Although only two of the four showed this. I would argue that the sample size is perhaps too small for definitive results and only the higher end results, 50%, showed a correlation.

In addition the new progression module does not lend itself to testing in this way -

Determination, Ambition and Professionalism all contribute exactly the same amount towards the progression score. However a certain progression score does not guarantee a certain level of progression. A progression score only gives the player a certain chance of achieving a certain level of progression. This chance ranges anywhere from 0% to 70%. As such two players with identical attributes could develop very differently. Similar two players with very different attributes could develop identically. In this way it is not possible to reliably test a single attribute's impact on progression through simply collating and monitoring a data set.

Edit - "new progression module does not lend itself to testing"

[Guimy]

Yay... probability theory... I love how this game keeps me on my toes regarding school subjects like Geography and Maths. 

@Seb Wassell Is there any chance at a Q&A and a look under the bonnet?

[enigmatic]

Thanks for the clarification Seb

I'll say one thing in favour of this revelation: it's a lot easier to identify players' determination than their professionalism rating (which may or may not be highlighted on reports depending on your squad personality and may or may not be guess-able from their personality)

Guess I'll go and tutor all those low determination, high professionalism newgens which I was holding back on tutoring (with average professionalism players) until they developed enough to actually be in contention for games important enough for me to care about their determination.

[Seb Wassell]

1 minute ago, Shrewnaldo said:

We discussed that ambition thing at the time and my thoughts were that more ambitious players forced moves to bigger clubs with higher rep matches and better facilities, thereby having an indirect effect albeit a clearly significant one. Is this the way it works or is ambition also rolled into this direct calculation?

I like that logic. To be fair it's a bit of both. Ambition is directly involved in the progression calculation. However it of course also affects things such as a player's desire to move to a bigger club, as you say. Therefore it can indirectly affect some of the other variables involved in progression, such as Training Facilities.

 

13 minutes ago, Shrewnaldo said:

I appreciate it won't work like this but, for simplification in a way that could be interpreted by players, would it be fair to say something like "development = PA x professionalism x determination x morale x match condition x experience from 1st team matches (scaled by reputation of those matches) x quality of facilities x quality of coaching x luck"? 

 

Anything else?

 

And then the available surplus CA generated by that training performance is "spent" on attributes according to the player's natural positions and training regimes? 

So I cannot stress enough how much the below is simplified and the reality is much more complicated.

Progression = weighted attribute increase = CA increase

Weighted attribute increase = training progression + match progression

Training progression = Professionalism, Ambition, Determination, Training Facilities, Morale, CHANCE and others.

[Seb Wassell]

32 minutes ago, Guimy said:

 

@Seb Wassell Is there any chance at a Q&A and a look under the bonnet?

We understand the desire for clarity in certain areas and it is something we will certainly take into consideration.

Hopefully a thread such as this is a help to you guys and we are passionate about continuing to help where it is possible/appropriate.

[Guimy]

22 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

We understand the desire for clarity in certain areas and it is something we will certainly take into consideration.

Hopefully a thread such as this is a help to you guys and we are passionate about continuing to help where it is possible/appropriate.

I'll be blunt and say that this has raised more questions than it has actually answered   I would love that Q&A and have contacted our community liaisons about it, could you do the same on your end, please? #cheeky 

[samuelawachie]

For context, i've played all the FM's from 2007 till 2014. I played the demo of 2016 and this current version.

I believed like we were told countless times that Det was majorly important in the matches only as those with loads of it wouldn't let their heads drop if the team fall behind, or simply to be determined to reach that ball ahead of the opponent. Made sense. So naturally, I focused on Prof and Amb when doing my scouting and recruitment... till something happened

I noticed that when i got a player or raised one from my youth ranks, who say has a Det of 13, had him tutored by someone who's Driven, all of a sudden when he reaches the 17, 18 to 20 bracket of Det, the scouts who I had at the club (who have JPP and JPA of 20 or 19) would suddenly revise their outlook on his prospects and someone that was "Playing near or close to his full potential"  will change to "Potential to improve significantly". 

When this happened more than a few times, I still unconsciously or consciously started re-taking Det very much into account.

All in all, bottom line is that even if this information shows that the info pre-FM17 was wrong, or that it was partly right or wrong, it's just irrelevant for probably the majority of users (because if anyone was attentive enough, as i believe they should be when playing such a game to obtain the best results, they'd have followed equivalent procedures).

Determination has always been important. It's still important. It will always be important. Having said that, i understand the reason to clear-up things that happen under the hood for those people that create charts and graph it trying to find a sure-fire way to get something from the game.

 

[j_morrissey1990]

4 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

For all intents and purposes Determination's impact on development is equal to that of Professionalism. 

Determination has always been an important, direct factor in player development.

Yes. For all intents and purposes the three have an equal impact.

 

Well iit looks like the vast majority of FM players on here are wrong (including myself) abd have been playing the game wrong in terms of rejecting determination as a major factor in youth development.

If anything it's encouraged me to start again.

Always good to hear gospelinfo from an SI employee as opposed to forumers like myself trying to work out what matters and what doesn't.

[mibsweden]

I must say that the Driven personality with Evasive Media Handling style is looking pretty interesting after reading this.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

So... The player base was under the impression Determination was important (way back when), only for the consensus on this forum to say it isn't, and now we're back to Determination is important again and we were being told wrong in the first place? 

 

That is somewhat disappointing. But at least we know for sure now. =/

 

1 hour ago, j_morrissey1990 said:

Well iit looks like the vast majority of FM players on here are wrong (including myself) abd have been playing the game wrong in terms of rejecting determination as a major factor in youth development.

^Right, but back in the day it was quite a popular attribute, it was only via here that I saw the information that Determination was being overstated.

 

Anyway I suppose the major factors would now be:

 

Professionalism, Ambition, Determination and playing time? (Not necessarily in that order obviously.)

 

It also confirms something I wasn't sure about; I had seen a player who was professional get a coaching report that he was being casual in training, that didn't add up to me as it seems to be the opposite of being professional. I had put it down to maybe, a lack of ambition, but maybe it was also a lack of determination to apply himself? I don't know, I'll have to read this thread from top to bottom later and adjust how I approach things based on what Mr. Seb is saying. (I appreciate the clarification by the way, it's good to have such information out in the open/confirmed somewhat.)

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

What about Work Rate? 

[Rashidi]

5 hours ago, samuelawachie said:

Determination has always been important. It's still important. It will always be important. Having said that, i understand the reason to clear-up things that happen under the hood for those people that create charts and graph it trying to find a sure-fire way to get something from the game.

My point exactly, Determination has always been an important attribute, for me its like the mother of all attributes, and I treat it as such. Naturally a players developmental potential shouldn't be a simple function of professionalism and ambition alone, but we have known for a long time that playing time, performance levels all play a part. And in those areas, determination does have an effect. Whats good now is that this is clarified, and from what I can gather it would explain certain little anomalies in my squad, and some of the reports that I get. Gaming the system was too easy in the old days, we literally created factories producing super talented youngsters which is fantastical, and this game is meant to be a simulation. 

While I can understand the angst of people who feel that they need more information, I can also respect how difficult it is for anyone to run a deep test. No-one since Lyssien has done a methodical test on training, it just involves too many players and takes too long. The fact that there are other variable in there that have reduced the impact of Determination/Professionalism as compared to previous editions is actually welcome news for me.  The fact that there is also a probability factor is something I love. Casinoing the life out of player development!  Chance also means that the number of iterations one has to do to come to a reasonable assumption just shot up. 

 

[OLLMEISTER1]

I have a seriously bad head after reading all that

[j_morrissey1990]

1 hour ago, OLLMEISTER1 said:

I have a seriously bad head after reading all that

The take away is that Determination DOES matter in terms of player development.

Determination has JUST AS MUCH as an effect as the player's personality has on his development.

Also worth noting that rate of devlopment can VARY in multiple tests with all of the same factors i.e same attributes, gametime, injuries etc.

Basically there is a bit of randomness to it, just enjoy the players who develop well and discard the ones that don't, knowing that sometimes there is nothing you could have done to help the player develop better.

 

[Seb Wassell]

38 minutes ago, j_morrissey1990 said:

Determination has JUST AS MUCH as an effect as the player's personality has on his development.

Worth noting that Personality = a combination of mental and hidden attributes. Therefore whilst it isn't wrong to say Determination has just as much as an effect as personality they are technically the same effect. Personality is just a way of describing a certain set of attributes.

38 minutes ago, j_morrissey1990 said:

Also worth noting that rate of devlopment can VARY in multiple tests with all of the same factors i.e same attributes, gametime, injuries etc.

Basically there is a bit of randomness to it, just enjoy the players who develop well and discard the ones that don't, knowing that sometimes there is nothing you could have done to help the player develop better.

Whilst chance is certainly a big factor there is always something you can do to help the player. Chance is always involved but how great that chance is directly influenced by the player's attributes, facilities, etc.