Are my players really morons or is it the 3d engine

[Kiddycop]

I love FM, but it is getting to the point where I dread watching the games.

How do I tell the difference between my players making mistakes and the 3d game engine's inability to reflect what is happening realistically?

For example, I realize it is a lower level, but has no one in the Vanarama South ever heard of a defender staying goal-side of the bleeping player he is marking?  Why are my players throwing the ball in to the other team?  Why is my team that has high marks for aggression literally standing around while getting beat to EVERY ball?  Why does my defender, with no one within 30 yards of him, "clear" the ball through the touchline for a corner kick?

Does anyone have any advice on how to pick out some useful bits of information from watching the game highlights from the sea of stupidity and sometimes seemingly predetermined outcomes?

Please help me lower my blood pressure :-)

 

[ilkork]

Yes, it's the "3d game engine's inability to reflect what is happening realistically".

Just watch matches in 2D/2D Classic.
You can still see if anything's wrong and what changes are required for your tactics.
And what's better is that you can use your own imagination as to how a goal was scored (till you watch the replay).

[Haider.08]

Even the best players make shocking decisions 1/2 the time. I don't think it's anything to do with the match engine not being able to graphically represent what's truly happening, I just think the match engine is bad.

[Marathon Dress Week]

On 08/04/2017 at 20:13, Haider.08 said:

Even the best players make shocking decisions 1/2 the time.

No, no they dont.

[beardymouse]

The most frustrating one is where a player just stands 5 feet away from a ball and just watches the ball as an opposition player charges from 20-30 metres away to get the ball ahead of them 

[oulzac]

Yeah the 3d engine some times just does a poor job of conveying what is happening I think, its why I refuse to use it. I get much less frustrated by these things when watching in 2d. Because the mistakes don't look as egregious.

[oi_oi_ginger_roy]

On this note - does watching it in 2D or 3D change the outcome of the game or will the result be the same no matter which view you use?!

[HUNT3R]

2 minutes ago, oi_oi_ginger_roy said:

On this note - does watching it in 2D or 3D change the outcome of the game or will the result be the same no matter which view you use?!

It's the same ME, just a different view, so no, no change at all.

[ilkork]

17 hours ago, beardymouse said:

The most frustrating one is where a player just stands 5 feet away from a ball and just watches the ball as an opposition player charges from 20-30 metres away to get the ball ahead of them 

This.

But no no no, SI will say "It's not the match engine's fault. Your player has low concentration"...

Yeah, "major improvements" Mr. @themadsheep2001, major improvements....

[Cougar2010]

20 minutes ago, ilkork said:

This.

But no no no, SI will say "It's not the match engine's fault. Your player has low concentration"...

Yeah, "major improvements" Mr. @themadsheep2001, major improvements....

There is always a reason for it but you need to interpret what is happening.  It could be:

A) Tactical, due to the instructions you have given him.

B) Attributes.

C) Mentality of the player, nerves, lack of confidence etc.

D) Animations, the player might not be moving because he is getting up from a tackle or a change of direction and the animations aren't available to clearly show that.

 

If you have examples upload them and people will offer their opinion.

[ilkork]

28 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

There is always a reason for it but you need to interpret what is happening.  It could be:

A) Tactical, due to the instructions you have given him.

B) Attributes.

C) Mentality of the player, nerves, lack of confidence etc.

D) Animations, the player might not be moving because he is getting up from a tackle or a change of direction and the animations aren't available to clearly show that.

 

If you have examples upload them and people will offer their opinion.

Why are you doing this mate?

Like i am a 12y old child...

[HUNT3R]

@ilkork It could be a bug. Could be other things too though, indecision being one. That 1 example (that constantly gets looked at, but they do creep back in sometimes) doesn't take away from the fact that there have been big improvements.

Also, please watch the language. It's a family forum.

[Cougar2010]

30 minutes ago, ilkork said:

Why are you doing this mate?

Like i am a 12y old child...

Adults don't immediately jump to conclusions, shout bug and refuse to consider the alternative reasons.

[Mattyboy89]

I'd say its the match engine failing to properly display what is actually happening. You have to use your imagination a little. I tend to watch on 2D and have 3D for replays.

[themadsheep2001]

2 hours ago, ilkork said:

This.

But no no no, SI will say "It's not the match engine's fault. Your player has low concentration"...

Yeah, "major improvements" Mr. @themadsheep2001, major improvements....

Don't @ me (or indeed anyone else) for sarky responses or anything along that line or you will find your posting privileges being reviewed. Post with civility or do post at all 

[ilkork]

(It's: either the whole post or i am editing this to nothing)

[themadsheep2001]

2 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

There is always a reason for it but you need to interpret what is happening.  It could be:

A) Tactical, due to the instructions you have given him.

B) Attributes.

C) Mentality of the player, nerves, lack of confidence etc.

D) Animations, the player might not be moving because he is getting up from a tackle or a change of direction and the animations aren't available to clearly show that.

 

If you have examples upload them and people will offer their opinion.

e) it could be a bug, and its always worth people uploading said example if they think its one.

In some cases the animation is too severe and it looks odd, so still areas it can be improved, but the ME does show what's going on very well overall.

Some people do find it easier to read the game in 2D (though the overwhelming majority to play in 3D) so people should always try different modes

[ilkork]

@themadsheep2001 Why did you remove my post?

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, ilkork said:

@themadsheep2001 Why did you remove my post?

I had just asked you to be civil, and I'd rather not see thread get derailed any further. Thanks

[ilkork]

1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I had just asked you to be civil, and I'd rather not see thread get derailed any further. Thanks

(It's: either the whole post or i am editing this to nothing)
 

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, ilkork said:

But i would like an explanation please.

 

If you want to speak further you can PM me.

[Cougar2010]

43 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

e) it could be a bug, and its always worth people uploading said example if they think its one.

In some cases the animation is too severe and it looks odd, so still areas it can be improved, but the ME does show what's going on very well overall.

Some people do find it easier to read the game in 2D (though the overwhelming majority to play in 3D) so people should always try different modes

Even if its classed as buggy it would fall into one of the four categories I listed and much like attributes whether something is a bug or not can be subjective.

Always worth it being uploaded to be reviewed though.

[Marathon Dress Week]

It's more than a little disappointing that we've had the 3d match engine for 9 years now, at it still can't show whether a player is getting up from a tackle or not when the opposition dance around you. I wonder how many more years of development are required before such basic issues are finally addressed?

In the meantime we have seen no end of animations added for goal celebrations, pre-match lineups, manager handshakes etc. For me this is indicative of SI's focus on fluff rather than substance over recent years. Nobody asked for manager avatars or social media feeds, yet they have somehow found their way into the game. Yet we still have a 3D match engine (arguably the core of the game) that can't show you whether a player is flat on the floor or not.

 

[LCFCEaves31]

I don't mind the match engine, it's a lot better than what it was 3-4 years ago. I think it helps the authenticity, rather than watching 2D discs floating around, but everyone is different and has there preference. 

The one thing I am getting bored of though is my defenders (normally full backs) passing back to the goalkeeper and it going out for a corner under no pressure... It isn't a difficult pass. Is this a bug and has it been brought up as an issue? 

[themadsheep2001]

30 minutes ago, Marathon Dress Week said:

It's more than a little disappointing that we've had the 3d match engine for 9 years now, at it still can't show whether a player is getting up from a tackle or not when the opposition dance around you. I wonder how many more years of development are required before such basic issues are finally addressed?

In the meantime we have seen no end of animations added for goal celebrations, pre-match lineups, manager handshakes etc. For me this is indicative of SI's focus on fluff rather than substance over recent years. Nobody asked for manager avatars or social media feeds, yet they have somehow found their way into the game. Yet we still have a 3D match engine (arguably the core of the game) that can't show you whether a player is flat on the floor or not.

 

It's not indicative of anything, its actually because it's really difficult to show that, because you're relying on physics more. That's the newest and hardest part of 3D to show. Same with trying to show jostling and harrying in attack and defence

And those 3D animations that have been added? Take a look at the wishlist, they have been demanded for years, people still want more of that, such as better and more post match celebs, especially when titles are won.

[Marathon Dress Week]

It may be difficult, but it's far from impossible. I would expect to have seen more done in this area after almost a decade in development. Half-Life 2 had a pretty good handle on physics, and that was released in 2004!

And before anyone complains that "that is a different type of game, you can't compare the two", physics are physics - it doesn't come in a variety of shapes and sizes.



 

[themadsheep2001]

7 minutes ago, Marathon Dress Week said:

It may be difficult, but it's far from impossible. I would expect to have seen more done in this area after almost a decade in development. Half-Life 2 had a pretty good handle on physics, and that was released in 2004!

And before anyone complains that "that is a different type of game, you can't compare the two", physics are physics - it doesn't come in a variety of shapes and sizes.



 

The implementation of physics is completely different. Physics is physics, but how you model is massively different. The type of physics, the ai driving the animations that use the physics are so different that the comparison is in all honesty utterly useless. Simulating a bullet being fired is completely different to simulating a large defender trying to muscle a smaller attacker off the ball, and getting done by the attackers agility

[Marathon Dress Week]

Yeah, best they continue not to bother, as it's just too difficult.

[Tony Wright 747]

10 minutes ago, Marathon Dress Week said:

Yeah, best they continue not to bother, as it's just too difficult.

I think that is a little unfair.  Who says they don't bother, it has just been explained that it is difficult, so you can expect it to take longer than other animations

[Marathon Dress Week]

As I said, it's been a decade.

[Tony Wright 747]

6 minutes ago, Marathon Dress Week said:

As I said, it's been a decade.

Not quite, it has been 9 releases and if you go back and play FM09 and then play FM17 you will notice a massive difference.  If the 3D stops improving then thats the time to complain

[Marathon Dress Week]

One can split hairs all day but 9 releases spans the best part of a decade.

I'm sure many are delighted at the rate of progress however I, like many other are not. It's been said before but it is a real shame for the player that there is no real competition to FM to drive innovation and development. A monopoly in any field is no good for the consumer.

[enigmatic]

There was loads of competition, including a competitor that took over their own Championship Manager brand.

They died out because creating a better product is really, really hard. And one of SI's biggest advantages was the match engine...

[Tony Wright 747]

1 hour ago, Marathon Dress Week said:

One can split hairs all day but 9 releases spans the best part of a decade.

I'm sure many are delighted at the rate of progress however I, like many other are not. It's been said before but it is a real shame for the player that there is no real competition to FM to drive innovation and development. A monopoly in any field is no good for the consumer.

I mostly agree with your last sentence competition is the driver of innovation and if SI had genuine competition the development would be more advanced, however when SI were 'driven' to introduce 3D in FM9 it was probably a year too soon, I believe they wern't quite ready, but were forced into it.

[themadsheep2001]

29 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

I mostly agree with your last sentence competition is the driver of innovation and if SI had genuine competition the development would be more advanced, however when SI were 'driven' to introduce 3D in FM9 it was probably a year too soon, I believe they wern't quite ready, but were forced into it.

Again no, they wanted to release then. It's always going to have to develop year on year. Competition is the driver is largely nonsense, as most drive is internal. We don't compete with Sky in my job on what we do (for example), all our drive is doing things better than we did before. 

[Marathon Dress Week]

10 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

 Competition is the driver is largely nonsense, as most drive is internal. 

Now I know you don't know what you are talking about!

[themadsheep2001]

8 minutes ago, Marathon Dress Week said:

Now I know you don't know what you are talking about!

I work at BT Sport. We dont actually think about Sky Sports when we do new things, and try to be more innovative. We do what we do, to be better than what we did before. When you do that, getting ahead is easy. The idea that you must have external competition is flawed.

[Marathon Dress Week]

Odd how BT Sport, competing in fierce market place, is a hive of innovation seemingly irrespective of what the competition is up to.

Yet BT Openreach, a monopoly, is constantly criticised for a lack investment and shocking customer service.


Please try and stay on topic.

[Tony Wright 747]

41 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Again no, they wanted to release then. It's always going to have to develop year on year. Competition is the driver is largely nonsense, as most drive is internal. We don't compete with Sky in my job on what we do (for example), all our drive is doing things better than we did before. 

I still believe Sega was putting pressure to release 3D as they knew Champ manager 10 had a 3D match view (absolute rubbish by the way) and if you speak to any marketing guru I don't think they would agree with you about competition.  Having said that I still believe SI do a fantistic job in representing a football match, no other football management game comes even close, in fact I can't think of any other sports management game that does.

[themadsheep2001]

28 minutes ago, Marathon Dress Week said:

Odd how BT Sport, competing in fierce market place, is a hive of innovation seemingly irrespective of what the competition is up to.

Yet BT Openreach, a monopoly, is constantly criticised for a lack investment and shocking customer service.


Please try and stay on topic.

It's entirely relevant to the competition as a driver entirely  

Actually, at BT Sport we compete with ourselves, please try not to argue with someone who works there. So far you've shown no understanding of how we work

[themadsheep2001]

8 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

I still believe Sega was putting pressure to release 3D as they knew Champ manager 10 had a 3D match view (absolute rubbish by the way) and if you speak to any marketing guru I don't think they would agree with you about competition.  Having said that I still believe SI do a fantistic job in representing a football match, no other football management game comes even close, in fact I can't think of any other sports management game that does.

Marketing isn't the same thing as those who actually put in the hard graft, in an industry. PR don't make the games (or products), or deal with the daily grind of it all. Don't confuse big talkers, for those who deal with the everyday, very different motivations. There is no one way to do things, or one reason to be driven by things. Hence needing competition becomes flawed, as its not the only motivator

[Marathon Dress Week]

24 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

It's entirely relevant to the competition as a driver entirely  

Actually, at BT Sport we compete with ourselves, please try not to argue with someone who works there. So far you've shown no understanding of how we work

For all I know you work in the canteen. Saying "we compete with ourselves" as if you do it for the sake of it is just marketing BS. You have to innovate to compete with whatever Sky, Virgin and the rest come out with. Try not innovating and see what your market share looks like in 5 years time when you have been left behind. The point is that monopolies don't need to innovate as there is no incentive to when you have a captive audience. If you can't grasp this basic business fact then I really hope for BT's sake that you don't occupy a senior strategic position in the company!

[themadsheep2001]

26 minutes ago, Marathon Dress Week said:

For all I know you work in the canteen. Saying "we compete with ourselves" as if you do it for the sake of it is just marketing BS. You have to innovate to compete with whatever Sky, Virgin and the rest come out with. Try not innovating and see what your market share looks like in 5 years time when you have been left behind. The point is that monopolies don't need to innovate as there is no incentive to when you have a captive audience. If you can't grasp this basic business fact then I really hope for BT's sake that you don't occupy a senior strategic position in the company!

I'm an assistant producer. They dont make the features, the openers, they dont choose the interviews, they don't design the new ways stuff is shown round in the studio for example, they arent the ones who actually have to find ways to deliver better content each. That's down to the producers, ergo, us, and we don't sit there thinking "what are Sky doing?" (for a start, Sky are working in an entirely different direction) That's not senior marketing who do that, and we do it because we want to be better than last time. it's the same in a company like SI, and the same for the Devs, coders and QA

You don't always need incentive to push forwards, not everyone relies on external motivation. I'm not entirely sure why you feel the need to be so rude in your replies, but please cut out. You might not agree with what I say, but the rudeness of your tone is unneeded and unwanted on this forum

[Haiku]

I agree that 3D should be improved, but... Paul said and few others confirmed that the current ME is putting very strict limitations on 3D, and the 3D can't get any major improvements on current ME. ME itself is very complex code build over the years to the state it's now. If 3D is going to be improved, SI should rewrite the ME to a more recent program language. This as you can imagine is a very difficult task that could take years to be done. I believe SI are taking this into consideration and are working towards new ME which would give a new platform for improved 3D. But it will take time and I have no idea when it will be done, but hopefully it will happen in the foreseeable future.

[Svenc]

Why hasn't anybody brought up the obvious: Either it is all players or no players being "Morons". Unless your motivational genius/tactical masterclass/man management excellence supreme would cause them to never show up, not bother, have them developed a level of togetherness rivaled only by the atmosphere surrounding pub brawls or cause them to be hopelessly overrun as they would expose their back line like school kids do it with everybody charging headfirst box side, giggling in anticipation to have a dip at goal.

Unless that is acknowledged, we can't take this anywhere, as the obvious perception issues are all there, and reading things is completely impossible, be them genuinelly bugs (which exist), animation issues (ditto), brain bug decisions (yessir). Telltale signs are all the wordings. "My players (never the opposition)". "ALWAYS getting beat to every ball (hyperbole, and besides, that means the other team are doing just fine?)". You could show such a player outright what was bug and what wasn't, he'd never accept it what was own contribution and what was the game... so they would report back time and time again with the same "issues". Some FM legends of this whose names I shall not bring into the fold again.

Alternatively, it could also be the club picked.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportivo_Morón

Or a corrupted database, every player being down to work rate, aggression,  determination 1. Would you please close down? No, you do, lazy git!