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1 hour ago, poobington said:

Personally I would keep it lopsided, and alway have one of the wingers on attack just simply you want them to be putting themself in the box in order to be potential goalscorers. My only concern is that if you make both IWs on support they will chiefly be creators.

Thanks. Will give it a go👍🏻👍🏻

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Update 2 - Up the Arsenal

Hi everyone. I thought I would see how my tactic fairs on the new update. Pleased to say that so far it has been excellent, playing as my team Arsenal. Only signing made was 22 yo Strike Vitinha from Braga. Profiles very similarly to Lacazette, albeit taller, younger and slightly more aggressive which should help with pressing.

I am pleased to say that the tactic is still doing very well within the new match engine. We are dominating games and with a practically unchanged Arsenal squad, are sitting top of the league. One thing I would like to focus on is a tweak I have developed for big games away from home. In an eventual 4-1 win against City, we really struggled in the first half. We succumbed to a sloppy goal where we let Sterling run through our defence and score a tidy finish in the 1st minute. After that City had us pegged back in our area and were quite content to keep possession.

At half time I had a quick think and thought about what I could do to improve the situation. My wingers had poor ratings, and really weren't getting involved, as evidenced by their 6.4 ratings.

1. Perhaps a change of personnel could do the trick? On the bench I did have more direct running options like Martinelli and Pepe.

2. Tweaking the passing length and going more direct. This was a no for me as I did not want to fundamentally change our philosophy.

3. Pass into Space and Counter - In Transition - this was the option I eventually went for. It meant I could still give my players a chance, I did not sacrifice intricate short passing but at the same time if a player was in space then we would go direct and exploit City's high line. 

There were a few sketchy moments where we overdid it playing out of the back, but I am pleased to say that all 4 of our goals were scored in the 2nd half, and you guessed it, they were usually on the break.

Goal 1 - https://www.veed.io/view/94edcf20-1be9-4e47-aa52-0e5bbb6fe25b

Goal 2 - https://www.veed.io/view/918518ee-bdc9-45fe-b97b-03d813518f22

 

Edited by poobington
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On 17/02/2022 at 12:50, poobington said:

Rather than start an entirely new thread and rehash a lot of the good information that is contained in the OP, I thought I would post my attempt a Guardiola recreation in FM 2022.

I have drawn heavily on the materials used by Ozil in the opening post and believe I have achieved a pretty faithful recreation so far, although I am alway open to tweaks to make it perform better within the match engine.

TACTIC:

1305702990_Screenshot2022-02-17at10_59_28.thumb.png.fa64c6de6efafadce93f3be83c8ae81e.png

DISCLAIMER: This tactic is in my opinion a project style tactic, where squad building and training are of equal importance to the tactic itself. A great squad may play well but without the PPMs that Ozil has mentioned in the OP especially for the key positions, (DM, MCL,MCR and F9) then this tactic will not play like Guardiola's Dream Team. This is most definitely not a plug and play tactic. 

Results: Possession and lots of it, defensively very sound. Scoring primarily from the wide players but if you have a world class False 9, they will also get on the end of chances and score plenty to. In my test with Leeds, Patrick Bamford was fantastic. Unfortunately I don't have the full game so the majority of my tests have been limited to games up to the Christmas Break, but in all of the teams (Leeds, Barcelona, Villarreal, Swansea) possession was high.

The thing I like most was that it was so simple to do, so I hope I can just explain what my thought process was.

Step 1 - Formation - simple 4-3-3 which was a mainstay of the side

Step 2 - Mentality and Team Instructions - Here I decided to start with these as these are effectively what governed the general philosophy of the side. Mentality wise I went with positive, as Guardiola expected to dominate teams and effectively suffocate them with probing play. I did consider attacking, but felt this was going into Bielsa territory and so opted against it. I have not tried this tactic with any other mentality so perhaps it might be even better with an Attacking one, who knows.

For the Team instructions, they are pretty self explanatory if you watched the Guardiola team:

In Possession:

  • Much Shorter Passing - I want to see the short "Tiki Taka" passes
  • Play Out of Defence - I want to see my defenders try to play out from the back, and the first line of the oppositions press, or carry the ball against deeper defenses.
  • Low Crosses - I want to see cutbacks
  • Slightly Higher Tempo - I want the tempo to be high to make my opponents run around and disrupt their shape

In Transition:

  • Take Short Kicks - again I want to play out from the back
  • Distribute to Centre Backs - same as above
  • Counter-Press - if we lose the ball I want to win it back "6 second rule" Having said this I don't want to counter every time, but rather if the opportunity is on hence why counter is not ticked and neither is regroup( I want the players with their intelligence to decide when is the best chance to do so.

Out of Possession:

  • Higher Defensive Line  - I want to peg back my opposition in their own half and these high pressing instructions achieve this.
  • Much Higher Line of Engagement
  • Much More Often

Step 3 Player Roles

The key to this tactic was getting the central diamond to work, this being the DM, MCL, MCR and F9. Initially  the MEZa was an APa, but their ended up being too much ball hogging and not enough penetration. 

In terms of wing play I wanted one attacking full back and one more reserved to mimic the Abidal and Alves relationship they had. My wingers are both told to stay wide to maintain width, but also to Roam from position allowing them to come inside when the opportunity allows. So far the most important thing for these positions is pace and a desire to run in behind. I have been experimenting with some PIs in my Swansea save and "Tries to beat offside trap" seems to be a great fit for the winger slots:

Player Instructions:

GK: Sweeper Keeper (Support): 
DCR: Ball-Playing Defender (Defend): (I wanted this guy to be able to consistently bring the ball out from defence and BPDs in this iteration of FM do this on a consistent basis is great
DCL: CD (Defend): N/A
FBR: Full Back (Support): N/A
DMC: Half-Back Defend (Defend): N/A
FBL: Wing Back Left (Support): N/A
MCL: Deep-Lying Playmaker (Support): N/A
MCR: Mezalla (Attack): Dribble More (I envisioned this player being my Iniesta beating men, getting into the box, overlapping the winger)
AMR: Inverted Winger (Attack): Roam From Position & Stay Wider
ST: False Nine (Support): Roam From Position & Shoot More Often ( a common problem is that False Nines don't score enough in FM so that's the reason for the shoot more)
AML: Inverted Winger (Attack): Roam From Position & Stay Wider

PPMs - I would just refer to the OP, but this definitely creates the style of play. Don't underestimate these.

Stats

Below are some stats I am currently achieving with Swansea.

1469586902_Screenshot2022-02-17at11_41_28.thumb.png.d657d11406bcbd59094ef8a7f14f0581.png

633741504_Screenshot2022-02-17at11_41_37.thumb.png.4b78d3eb434c284e8f734484a2725af2.png

1982949275_Screenshot2022-02-17at11_43_39.thumb.png.048c6304e379a3e738d547d8897f5545.png

247532943_Screenshot2022-02-17at11_46_14.thumb.png.c5a00cde8f7f56fcb2f128a5a7c68450.png

1510699238_Screenshot2022-02-17at11_40_48.thumb.png.08f25af50a4a7d212ae1fffbd2b125af.png

Not sure if it's intentional, but i think this actually looks more like the current Arsenal role distribution, than peps team back then. obvs aside from the fact arsenal mostly defend in a 4-4-2 shape

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It's very true, but I think it might just be that the current crop of players play that sort of system very well, albeit in their own way. Like I mentioned in my previous post, the tactic itself is half the battle. The PPMs really dictate what you see in the match engine. When I have tried it in the past with even the current Barcelona side, then the football is totally different. A lot more one-twos and give and gos. One thing I will say it is really fun to watch.

Edited by poobington
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 Saw this tweet after the Barcelona game today and decided to quickly test something out:

PLP.thumb.png.0ef907e44b2e5138268136bb39b6772a.png

The tactic I am trying out:

4-3-3.thumb.png.517c42a4ece2391e4e529439054886ae.png

It's very similar to @poobington's tactic in terms of roles, the only significant difference I think is the change to the right flank, where I am using an orthodox winger on support with an inverted wingback behind him. To my delight, the Barcelona's squad of 2022 actually fits perfectly with this tactic, with Adama Traore and Dembele acting best as traditional wingers, while Alves and Roberto are argubaly actually better suited as IWBs rather than regular wingbacks due to their lack of pace but superior passing. 

As stated by the tweet, Dembele stayed wide, Alves moved into midfield, which allows Pedri to push really high in the right half-space. On the left flank, there is a more common modern approach, with the left back high and wide, the central midfieder sitting in midfield, and the left winger tucked inside in the left half-space. The result is an asymmetrical 2-3-5.

92058620_2-3-5IRL.png.2ed54a582710a8e6edf9bbd5af3be88f.png

I am pleased to report that this is reproducable in FM22, as seen here:2-3-5.thumb.png.1513050c97dd2351d5e7f3e1d5eae538.png

All in all, definitely an intriguing tactic. 

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@Xenophobic Bean I like what you've done with the IWBs. I think Dani Alves in the winter update could still do an excellent job there.

I was looking at the highlights of the Barcelona game with Osasuna, and think that right wing role is very dependant on who plays there. If it's Adama then yes a Ws is definitely the role, but if its dembele it has to be an IWs, he cuts in so much, both his assists came from him either cutting inside, driving and providing a through ball, or cutting inside and delivering a cross with his left.

 

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13 hours ago, poobington said:

I was looking at the highlights of the Barcelona game with Osasuna, and think that right wing role is very dependant on who plays there. If it's Adama then yes a Ws is definitely the role, but if its dembele it has to be an IWs, he cuts in so much, both his assists came from him either cutting inside, driving and providing a through ball, or cutting inside and delivering a cross with his left.

This is interesting. While it's true that both of his assists came from Demeble cutting inside, he also drives towards the byline a lot. I think in FM terms, he should still be a W(S), but with the PPM "Cuts Inside from Both Wings". This way, he can decide whether to cut inside or run wide with the ball depending on the situation, creating an element of unpredictability. With the IW role, it can become quite one dimensional since all he will be doing is cutting inside once he gets the ball.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 14/03/2022 at 08:13, Xenophobic Bean said:

As stated by the tweet, Dembele stayed wide, Alves moved into midfield, which allows Pedri to push really high in the right half-space

Trying to replicate this in my save at the moment but my first choice FB has the "gets forward whenever possible" trait. Would this hugely affect the tactic and leave my flank defensively vulnerable? I'm pretty sure Dest and Alves have that trait as well in FM does it still work for you? Or do you untrain the trait before using them as an IWB?

Edited by KCHDD
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On 14/03/2022 at 03:23, poobington said:

@Xenophobic Bean I like what you've done with the IWBs. I think Dani Alves in the winter update could still do an excellent job there.

I was looking at the highlights of the Barcelona game with Osasuna, and think that right wing role is very dependant on who plays there. If it's Adama then yes a Ws is definitely the role, but if its dembele it has to be an IWs, he cuts in so much, both his assists came from him either cutting inside, driving and providing a through ball, or cutting inside and delivering a cross with his left.

 

Dembele actually does both - cuts inside and goes out wide to the by line like true winger. He is also two-footed which allows him to pick and choose which one he does and when. Xavi is definitely getting the best of him so far. In FM terms the Winger on Support role is a good choice how he plays IRL. 

When using Adama or Ferran on the right in the same role, they will play it differently than Dembele due to their footedness and traits. 

As far as Pedri and Alves, I think MEZ-support and IWB-defend better represent how they play IRL. 

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I have been working with a tactic inspired on Pep´s Tiki Taka on my Wrexham save. However I have been using a 4-4-1-1 instead of the 4-3-3/4-1-4-1 DM Wide.

I did this tactical scheme on Rate my Tactic but it is basically a custom FM tiki-taka which was changed to fit a lower league system. In Transition we also have the TIs "Distribute to Centre Backs" and "Distribute Quickly":
 

image.png.a8d9615b16155858d31148607b160be4.png

PIs: CM-Su has "Move into Channels" and "Get Further Foward", AM-Su has "Roam from Position".


The most difficult part was to develop a defensive strategy. The original Tiki Taka is very aggressive on defending but we lack some quality to do that, so for now I opted for a simple "More Urgent" on Positive mentality, although sometimes I push the d-line up when necessary. 

I am also considering testing a DLF (or F9) and SS pair upfront, to give us more penetrating/finishing options on the last third and also to reply on the 4-4-1-1 the same IF-At/F9 pair that is normally used on a 4-3-3 formation.

Edited by Tsuru
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On 05/04/2022 at 05:06, Gegenklaus said:

What kind of mentality would you settle on for this kind of football, @yonko? I know it depends on how you distribute player duties and everything is relative. :)

I use Positive Team Mentality. 

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I'm currently playing a system with Barcelona themselves which is quite similar to both the ones above.

One slight gripe so far (apart from our horrendous finishing which sees us lagging 12 goals behind our xG after just 12 league games!) is the fact that I don't get many passes from Busquets into the feet of Pedri. Busquets is currently playing as a HB (D) and Pedri is playing as a Mezzala (A). 

I've often had occasions where Busquets has dropped in line with the CBs and Pedri has pushed up into the forward line. Combined with Much Shorter Passing as a Team Instruction this becomes too great a distance for a pass to be made. The result is often that we get stuck aimlessly moving the ball between Busquets and the defenders.

I know this is limited info (I can provide screenshots of stats, in game scenarios etc if needed) but based on the above, does anyone have any recommendations on how to fix this?

My thoughts so far have been:

- Change Busquets to a DM (D). This would mean he's slightly higher up the pitch and closer to Frenkie de Jong (LCM, Roaming Playmaker, Support) and Pedri (RCM, Mezzala, Attack)
- Reduce Pedri's duty from Attack to Support. This might mean he doesn't push up as high? Although reading the Player Instructions the only difference I can see between Attack and Support for a Mezzala is that the Attack duty means he will take more risks. Get Further Forward is hard coded for both. Based on this I would expect his positioning the be similar with both duties, with the main difference being the types of passes he tries when he has the ball. I'm worried about lacking penetration if I have a midfield of 1 Defend duty and 2 Support duties.
- Change from Much Shorter Passing to Shorter Passing. Although Barcelona are famous for their short passing in triangles through midfield, a lot of Busquets' best passes are actually over a slightly greater distance. The ones that break the lines. This change could give him a bit more license to push the ball through those gaps in the opposition midfield, rather than always to look for the closest option, which is quite often a CB or LB/RB.

I have a bad habit of changing too many things at once and not being able to pin point exactly which thing is causing the changes, so would be interested to get someone's thoughts on this before I jump in and alter too much? Cheers. :thup:

 

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