Pep's Barcelona (Very Fluid)

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

27 minutes ago, jibers said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

Great attempt and one of the best interpretations of this system i've ever seen. The only criticism is the Xavi interpretation in your system.

Setting Xavi to play no through balls makes no sense considering he had 1 more assist than Iniesta in 10/11 in less minutes, played more through balls and made more key passes and pre assists and he played deeper. Limiting his role as just someone who keeps possession limits his game. 

The whole point of Xavi is his football IQ leads him to make the best decisions almost all the time. I would say he should be the only player given maximum creativity as his short passing ppm would mean he would always involve those around him and he would instinctively know the right time to make the killer pass.

All the other roles are excellent. Kudos.

Yep, I can see 100% see the argument for Xavi as a Roaming Playmaker.

The primary driver for me was actually that an ageing Iniesta didn't necessarily have the legs for the position. Xavi is a very difficult player to recreate - note I say player, more than role.

[Jean0987654321]

@yonko @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! You could always make a goalscoring treq. I'd have in the past FMs have made some great goalscoring treqs.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

6 hours ago, Jean0987654321 said:

@yonko @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! You could always make a goalscoring treq. I'd have in the past FMs have made some great goalscoring treqs.

The point I am trying to get across is not whether or not the Trequartista will score goals. Any role would score goals naturally due to the positioning on the field and the attribute profile of the players used.

My point is simply that a role instructed to make more forward runs will always be more effective at making forward runs that a role without it. The same applies to pressing.

In certain circumstances it might work, but it is not optimal for what I want to create.

[jibers]

On 30/03/2017 at 13:24, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yep, I can see 100% see the argument for Xavi as a Roaming Playmaker.

The primary driver for me was actually that an ageing Iniesta didn't necessarily have the legs for the position. Xavi is a very difficult player to recreate - note I say player, more than role.

Ah fair enough. It might be impossible in the game except some super regen comes about. Xavi probably has the most specialised role in modern football. He had unreal stamina, was the team's primary controller in midfield, brought the ball out of defence when Busquets was man marked and created goal scoring opportunities. The closest player I can think of in history is Cruyff who was perhaps even more specialised role wise. 

 

 

[aderow]

11 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

The point I am trying to get across is not whether or not the Trequartista will score goals. Any role would score goals naturally due to the positioning on the field and the attribute profile of the players used.

My point is simply that a role instructed to make more forward runs will always be more effective at making forward runs that a role without it. The same applies to pressing.

In certain circumstances it might work, but it is not optimal for what I want to create.

Ironically, I started used an SS in place of a Treq (as I usually do) for this very reason in my strikerless 451. And the aggressiveness of the role has also been key here for me. A lot easier than having to find an attacker with high aggression but with enough skill to play the Treq role effectively.

[yonko]

23 hours ago, Jean0987654321 said:

@yonko @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! You could always make a goalscoring treq. I'd have in the past FMs have made some great goalscoring treqs.

I didn't say a Trequartista can't score. I simply said that Messi pressed more under Pep than the Trequartista role does.

[JPG]

Wil this work with a small club?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

17 minutes ago, JPG said:

Wil this work with a small club?

Depends.

[JPG]

What will it depend on, will I have to tweak the tactic in anyway, I m not a fan of starring saves with the big boys.

[chrisrossi]

I owe you a lot O-zil to the arsenal, I've found it difficult to create tactics in the past that were successful and I feel that after reading your posts in particular (first one being the Arrigo Sachi Post) not only have I found a way to play but I also have ideas on how to change things when its not going right. I have been doing some testing and come up with a slightly modified version of sachi tactic that makes me feel like I've nailed the current LFC tactic 4-1-2-2-1 Wide. I will post screenshots later as after 21 games I have won 18 and drawn 3 including a 6-0 win vs City at Anfield. Scoring on average 3 per game and conceding less than 1 on average per game. Although Complete forward gets a lot of goals, the front 5 score consistently. 

I did sign Romagnolli and Donnarumma which may be the reason defensively I have been so good. The front 5 I feel is as close to the way LFC play as you can probably get in FM17.

My tactic is as follows

GK(d) - Roll it out, Pass to centre backs, shorter passing

Right FB (s)                                                                                       In games I have changed this role to WB(a) for teams that have either narrow formation or not really a threat in behind

Centre Defender (d)

Centre Defender (d)

Left WB (a)                                                                                        In games changed this to FB(s) if opposition targeting that area or 1 or 2 goals up and starting to get pressure on us   

Anchorman - close down less                                                       When team changes from 4231 to 424 or something similar I have moved him into midfield as Ball Winning Midfielder (d)

rcm Ball Winning Midfielder (s) - Forward Runs                         In games If I'm struggling to get support to forward or want to get more movement in general change to CM(a)

lcm Ball Winning Midfielder (s)

Right Winger (a)                                                                                I only have Mane for this role, so when not fit or away I have sometimes moved firmino to this position and changed to IF (s) and Clyne to WB(a) for the width

Left Inside Forward (s) - Hold up ball                    

Complete Forward (s)  - Move into Channels

 

Team Instructions;

Much Higher Defensive Line, Offside Trap, Close down much more, Prevent Keeper playing out, tighter marking, play out of defence, pass into space, low crosses

[Anaconda Vice]

3 hours ago, JPG said:

What will it depend on, will I have to tweak the tactic in anyway, I m not a fan of starring saves with the big boys.

Of course it will need tweaking.

This is designed for Messi, Neymar and Suarez amongst others. The players at the club you are managing will most likely be inferior so it will need changes.

[alinp]

2 hours ago, chrisrossi said:

I owe you a lot O-zil to the arsenal, I've found it difficult to create tactics in the past that were successful and I feel that after reading your posts in particular (first one being the Arrigo Sachi Post) not only have I found a way to play but I also have ideas on how to change things when its not going right. I have been doing some testing and come up with a slightly modified version of sachi tactic that makes me feel like I've nailed the current LFC tactic 4-1-2-2-1 Wide. I will post screenshots later as after 21 games I have won 18 and drawn 3 including a 6-0 win vs City at Anfield. Scoring on average 3 per game and conceding less than 1 on average per game. Although Complete forward gets a lot of goals, the front 5 score consistently. 

I did sign Romagnolli and Donnarumma which may be the reason defensively I have been so good. The front 5 I feel is as close to the way LFC play as you can probably get in FM17.

My tactic is as follows

GK(d) - Roll it out, Pass to centre backs, shorter passing

Right FB (s)                                                                                       In games I have changed this role to WB(a) for teams that have either narrow formation or not really a threat in behind

Centre Defender (d)

Centre Defender (d)

Left WB (a)                                                                                        In games changed this to FB(s) if opposition targeting that area or 1 or 2 goals up and starting to get pressure on us   

Anchorman - close down less                                                       When team changes from 4231 to 424 or something similar I have moved him into midfield as Ball Winning Midfielder (d)

rcm Ball Winning Midfielder (s) - Forward Runs                         In games If I'm struggling to get support to forward or want to get more movement in general change to CM(a)

lcm Ball Winning Midfielder (s)

Right Winger (a)                                                                                I only have Mane for this role, so when not fit or away I have sometimes moved firmino to this position and changed to IF (s) and Clyne to WB(a) for the width

Left Inside Forward (s) - Hold up ball                    

Complete Forward (s)  - Move into Channels

 

Team Instructions;

Much Higher Defensive Line, Offside Trap, Close down much more, Prevent Keeper playing out, tighter marking, play out of defence, pass into space, low crosses

I'd be interested to see what you've done with this.  I tend to add Roaming to the "front 4" and I've taken to playing it strikerless, dropping the CF to SS.

[chrisrossi]

[chrisrossi]

I did go on holiday during the friendlies, so the players had good morale going into the season. 9 out of 10 won and 1 draw.

Edited April 7, 2017 by chrisrossi

[Vico Vito Pep]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Got this Average Position Map from Barcelona's Wrap-up of the match vs Sevilla. Seems Lucho's 3-3-1-3 tactic looks a lot like your Pep tactic but Messi's movement looks similar to the AM(a) role in your Cruyff Diamond. 

Edited April 11, 2017 by Vico Vito Pep
Quoted OP...not necessary for the reply

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

4 hours ago, Vico Vito Pep said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Got this Average Position Map from Barcelona's Wrap-up of the match vs Sevilla. Seems Lucho's 3-3-1-3 tactic looks a lot like your Pep tactic but Messi's movement looks similar to the AM(a) role in your Cruyff Diamond. 

Yea, it's nothing crazy different. It's just Sergi Roberto on the right flank pushed forward to midfield and Umtiti used as a more conservative left back / sided defender to compensate.

I'm not sure I am a massive fan of the balance of it but I can see the logic.

[Craigus89]

@Vico Vito Pep Did you really need to quote the entire OP? Can you edit that it's a right pain.

[Vico Vito Pep]

8 hours ago, Craigus89 said:

@Vico Vito Pep Did you really need to quote the entire OP? Can you edit that it's a right pain.

Sorry mate, I'll try to edit and remove the quoted OP..

Edited April 11, 2017 by Vico Vito Pep
better reply given...

[BrickCommo23]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Quick question, which you may have already answered and apologies if so but I've not been able to see it. 

Some of your previous similar posts have said that very fluid only works with 1 or 2 players on 'fancy' player roles. Is that not the case on FM17? 

I'm just trying to make a similar system work in my Arsenal save...

[Deego619]

God damn it just when I said I'd give FM a break to do more productive things I read this gem of a thread. The concept of the SS as an "attacking false 9" especially gets me excited as I feel I have a player from my FM15 save with Brighton who I blushed at when I had the thought of him rampaging through the middle in a similar manner.

 

 

I might report back with how I use a similar role in a slightly different setup. It's more of a structured possession approach that keeps things safe, but Herrera is my dynamite.

 

[BrickCommo23]

11 hours ago, JDeeguain said:

God damn it just when I said I'd give FM a break to do more productive things I read this gem of a thread. The concept of the SS as an "attacking false 9" especially gets me excited as I feel I have a player from my FM15 save with Brighton who I blushed at when I had the thought of him rampaging through the middle in a similar manner.

 

 

I might report back with how I use a similar role in a slightly different setup. It's more of a structured possession approach that keeps things safe, but Herrera is my dynamite.

 

Amazing regen! Did you find him or did he come up through your academy?

[Deego619]

3 hours ago, BrickCommo23 said:

Amazing regen! Did you find him or did he come up through your academy?

I thank Real Sociedad every single day for producing such a monster.

 

I followed him since he first appeared in the game but Sociedad put a 50m release clause on him early on. I had to wait a season or two to find the funds but he's been worth every penny. He just picks up the ball in deep positions and starts running...and running...and running before he smashes it into the top corner. I literally set up my team to be "10+Herrera".

[zemaniano85]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I read carefully the threads you wrote, and replies, but I couldn't see anything regarding changes, during game, or against different opponents, or defending a lead or chasing a goal down...... Maybe I missed it, but I would have some tips about it. I really enjoyed the fact about the mentality bar, which I never paid attention, and suddenly all came togheter.... Thats why I was trying to make my DLPd through pass in build up play, and he never done. Now I'm exited to start a system on these foundation but different style of play. I would like to build from back, having creative players in deep position and a pure striker to attack spaces....

[yonko]

Season 2 update.

Even better than the first invincible season. Won the Champions League and League Cup too.

Plenty of players contributed with goals and assists as you can see. This is due to the fact that I went through another small evolution with the tactic. I used the following:

Control - Very Fluid - Retain Possession, Shorter Passing, Play Out Of Defense, Close Down More, Slightly Higher D-Line, Prevent Short GK Distribution

GK = SK-D (Mignolet/Karius)

DCR = CD-D (Dier/Wisdom)

DCL = CD-D (Riedewald/Matip)

WBR = WB-S (Clyne/Arnold)

DMC = HB-D* (Henderson/Emre Can)

WBL = WB-S (Grimaldo/Moreno)

MCR = AP-A** (Dele Alli/Denis Suarez/Lallana)

MCL = DLP-S*** (Lallana/Hughes/Denis Suarez)

AMR = IF-A**** (Mane/Origi/Sturridge)

AMC = SS-A (Firmino/Sturridge/Dele Alli)

AML = IF-S (Coutinho/Woodburn/Denis Suarez)

* HB-D can change to DLP-D vs 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-2-1-1 (2DMs+AMC) formations. Also sometimes I may change the role to DM-D against certain 4-2-3-1 wide formations depending on what role I think their AMC is playing.

** AP-A can change to CM-A (with Roaming and More Risky Passes) when the HB changes to DLP.

*** DLP-S changes to RPM with More Risky Passes.

**** IF-A changes to W-A with Roam From Position.

Player Instructions:

AP-A: Roam & Get Further Forward

IF-A: Roam

SS-A: Roam

IF-S: Roam & Get Further Forward

If I have problem breaking teams down, I drop mentality to Standard and I remove Retain Possession. If that doesn't lead to a goal, I add more width. If that doesn't work, the next step is changing the roles as described above.

To keep a lead or to start an away game against a top team, I just drop mentality to Counter. However, this requires to pay attention because a good team will become very aggressive pressing your players and if they dwell on the ball too much (due to lower mentality + retain possession+shorter passing) this means I have to remove either Retain Possession or Shorter Passing. The idea is to play "keep ball", defend with possession, without making players loose the ball under pressure because they take too much time to pass it along.

A little advice to others. Retain Possession is a really tricky instruction. Pay attention if and when your players take too long on the ball and/or are pressured really hard by the opponent. In some circumstances it can be counter productive to use this instruction as it leads to unnecessary loss of the ball. Now in the beginning of my 3rd season I find myself removing this instruction during games more and more. 

I'll end this post with couple of impressive results from my second season:

Playing without Coutinho due to injury (6 weeks) in both legs vs Barcelona. Still did a "Barca Manita" on Barca.

Edited April 25, 2017 by yonko

[Armistice]

Aside from movement and your arguments over the role, have you gone with an attack duty over support because attack is more likely to score goals? (Considering the individual mentality).

[alinp]

8 hours ago, yonko said:

GK = SK-D (Mignolet/Karius)

DCR = CD-D (Dier/Wisdom)

DCL = CD-D (Riedewald/Matip)

WBR = WB-S (Clyne/Arnold)

DMC = HB-D* (Henderson/Emre Can)

MCR = AP-A** (Dele Alli/Denis Suarez/Lallana)

MCL = DLP-S*** (Lallana/Hughes/Denis Suarez)

AMR = IF-A**** (Mane/Origi/Sturridge)

AMC = SS-A (Firmino/Sturridge/Dele Alli)

AML = IF-S (Coutinho/Woodburn/Denis Suarez)

Very impressive - especially playing with 10 

[yonko]

7 hours ago, alinp said:

Very impressive - especially playing with 10 

Edited. Happy now?  

[yonko]

13 hours ago, nightwalker22 said:

Aside from movement and your arguments over the role, have you gone with an attack duty over support because attack is more likely to score goals? (Considering the individual mentality).

I assume that you are asking about the Inside Forward on the right (Mane)......

Yes, the Attack duty helped Mane score more goals. His pace and movement is dangerous, especially considering that there is an AP-A next to him who is always willing (and able) to play a through ball for his runs.

This is especially evident and effective when I remove Retain Possession. The SS, the AP and even the IF on Support from the other side love to find the IF-A behind the defense.

[Armistice]

1 minute ago, yonko said:

I assume that you are asking about the Inside Forward on the right (Mane)......

Yes, the Attack duty helped Mane score more goals. His pace and movement is dangerous, especially considering that there is an AP-A next to him who is always willing (and able) to play a through ball for his runs.

This is especially evident and effective when I remove Retain Possession. The SS, the AP and even the IF on Support from the other side love to find the IF-A behind the defense.

I wasn't asking you, sorry for the confusion, I was asking OP (can't tag him).

[retrodude09]

2 hours ago, nightwalker22 said:

I wasn't asking you, sorry for the confusion, I was asking OP (can't tag him).

If you're asking O-Zil, then what role are you referring to? 

[Armistice]

7 hours ago, retrodude09 said:

If you're asking O-Zil, then what role are you referring to? 

Shadow Striker.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

4 hours ago, nightwalker22 said:

Shadow Striker.

Essentially the decision between Shadow Striker and False 9 came down to whether I wanted a) a more attacking player, advancing from a deeper position or b) a more conservative player dropping back into a withdrawn position.

During build-play, both are very similar. The False 9 drops deeper, whilst the Shadow Striker is naturally in the deeper space in front of the defence, so they're both positioned similarly.

The difference comes in, in the attacking phase. The Shadow Striker is an Attack role, whilst the False 9 is a Support role which - obviously - means the Shadow Striker is more attacking.

In a Very Fluid / Control system, the difference is reasonably pronounced. The False 9 has a neutral mentality and is therefore 50-50 between attacking and risk averse preferences. The Shadow Striker - on the other hand - is 75-25 in favour of attack. My interpretation of the Messi role is more on the attacking side and that's what we see reflected in the goals, attacking passes, dribbles etc.

Due to the quality of the players and the overall system I would expect that the False 9 would be a decent option and still score goals, it's simply that the Shadow Striker is optimal.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Armistice]

Pretty much what I thought. Thanks for the explanation mate.

[alinp]

16 hours ago, yonko said:

Edited. Happy now?  

Lol - yes thanks.  Still very impressive

15 hours ago, yonko said:

I assume that you are asking about the Inside Forward on the right (Mane)......

Yes, the Attack duty helped Mane score more goals. His pace and movement is dangerous, especially considering that there is an AP-A next to him who is always willing (and able) to play a through ball for his runs.

This is especially evident and effective when I remove Retain Possession. The SS, the AP and even the IF on Support from the other side love to find the IF-A behind the defense.

I have a similar front 3 in my current save where Mane is a W(A) with Roam (which iirc is one of you variations) - he top scored for me in my most recently finished season with over 30 goals.

[djhagster]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! i am trying out something similar and re training ppms on the DLP and AP roles. What ppms would you recommend for any other roles in the system? wingbacks get forward more and hug line i would think, IF's move into channels and cut inside at a guess. If you could advise any more i would be grateful! Cheers

[yonko]

3 hours ago, alinp said:

Lol - yes thanks.  Still very impressive

I have a similar front 3 in my current save where Mane is a W(A) with Roam (which iirc is one of you variations) - he top scored for me in my most recently finished season with over 30 goals.

Which part impresses you the most?

If I recall correctly, you use CF-S instead of SS-A in your front 3 right?

The way I have it set up now is very effective and close to how they play IRL - the front 3 I mean.

Now in the third season my team is:

GKs - Mignolet/Karius (still sticking with them)

DCs - Dier, Joe Gomez, Romagnoli, Riedelwald 

WBs - Clyne, Arnold, Grimaldo, Moreno

DMs - Emre Can, Denis Zakaria

MCs - Dele Alli, Henderson, Lallana, Will Hughes

IFs - Mane, Coutinho, Sterling (yeah, he's back ), Denis Suarez

SS - Firmino, Woodburn 

Ojo, Ejaria, Brannagan, Reiss Nielson and Grujic are on loan as Key Players with option to recall.

The only player I can see buying to improve this team is the usual suspect - Paolo Dybala. 

[alinp]

18 minutes ago, yonko said:

Which part impresses you the most?

If I recall correctly, you use CF-S instead of SS-A in your front 3 right?

The outcome - what else 😊

I used to use a CF, but more recently have been using an SS. Currently have (L to R) IF(S), SS, W(A) in front of midfield 3 of BWM(S), RGA, CM(A) and have reduced my starting TI's to Close Down More, PooD & Shorter Passing.

[yonko]

3 hours ago, alinp said:

The outcome - what else 😊

I used to use a CF, but more recently have been using an SS. Currently have (L to R) IF(S), SS, W(A) in front of midfield 3 of BWM(S), RGA, CM(A) and have reduced my starting TI's to Close Down More, PooD & Shorter Passing.

The interesting part of that impressive result against Barca, was that I was down 3-1 in the first leg.

But then I made some adjustments to my tactic, mainly changed roles.

I switched to DLP-D (Hendo), AP-S (Hughes), CM-A (Lallana) in midfield, while up front I played IF-S (Suarez), SS-A (Dele Alli), W-A (Mane). At that moment only the SS had the Roaming instruction, CM-A has the More Risky Passes. Firmino was playing badly so I had subbed him with Hughes and shuffled the players. Dele scored two goals and I could've won even, if Mane and Lallana scored their chances after that.

In the second leg is when I added the Roaming to the Inside Forwards and the Get Further Forward to the AP-A. When I saw how well it worked, I decided to use it more often. Probably it helped the fact that the first two goals were scored from set pieces, which is rare for me. But I was creating chances and shredding their defense anyway.

[retrodude09]

1 hour ago, yonko said:

The interesting part of that impressive result against Barca, was that I was down 3-1 in the first leg.

But then I made some adjustments to my tactic, mainly changed roles.

I switched to DLP-D (Hendo), AP-S (Hughes), CM-A (Lallana) in midfield, while up front I played IF-S (Suarez), SS-A (Dele Alli), W-A (Mane). At that moment only the SS had the Roaming instruction, CM-A has the More Risky Passes. Firmino was playing badly so I had subbed him with Hughes and shuffled the players. Dele scored two goals and I could've won even, if Mane and Lallana scored their chances after that.

In the second leg is when I added the Roaming to the Inside Forwards and the Get Further Forward to the AP-A. When I saw how well it worked, I decided to use it more often. Probably it helped the fact that the first two goals were scored from set pieces, which is rare for me. But I was creating chances and shredding their defense anyway.

I'm interested to hear more about why you change from a HB to a DLP against certain formations? Especially the 4-1-4-1 because thats a formation that lacks a threat in that 'golden zone'.

[yonko]

4 hours ago, retrodude09 said:

I'm interested to hear more about why you change from a HB to a DLP against certain formations? Especially the 4-1-4-1 because thats a formation that lacks a threat in that 'golden zone'.

For start, a DLP is more involved in possession as he attracts the ball. Changing this role triggers changing the other roles to more adventurous ones - such as RPM, AP, BBM and CM-A. This offers different options and more opportunities for penetrating opponents.

Another reason is because against single striker formations sometimes it's very risky to play with HB, WBs and wide splitting DCs as it allows too much space for pacy dangerous strikers.

And lastly, it is pointless and waste of roles to use HB against formations such as 4-1-4-1, 4-1-2-2-1 and other 4-5-1 variants or other formations with deep midfield and 1 isolated striker.

I'm even thinking of using a DLP-S at DM now.

[alinp]

 

4 hours ago, yonko said:

I'm even thinking of using a DLP-S at DM now.

Slowly gravitating to my RGA version 😊

[alinp]

9 hours ago, yonko said:

For start, a DLP is more involved in possession as he attracts the ball. Changing this role triggers changing the other roles to more adventurous ones - such as RPM, AP, BBM and CM-A. This offers different options and more opportunities for penetrating opponents.

Another reason is because against single striker formations sometimes it's very risky to play with HB, WBs and wide splitting DCs as it allows too much space for pacy dangerous strikers.

And lastly, it is pointless and waste of roles to use HB against formations such as 4-1-4-1, 4-1-2-2-1 and other 4-5-1 variants or other formations with deep midfield and 1 isolated striker.

I'm even thinking of using a DLP-S at DM now.

Would it therefore be fair to say, that you're making adjustments to how your system can be effective by changing how the midfield 3 operate in terms of roles and duties, whilst leaving the back 5 and front 3 pretty much alone?

[yonko]

8 hours ago, alinp said:

 

Slowly gravitating to my RGA version 😊

Nope.  

3 hours ago, alinp said:

Would it therefore be fair to say, that you're making adjustments to how your system can be effective by changing how the midfield 3 operate in terms of roles and duties, whilst leaving the back 5 and front 3 pretty much alone?

Yes. I'm always thinking about adjusting my system to be effective. That is why I like having versatile players who have the attributes to fulfill multiple roles and even play multiple positions. For example, Denis Suarez can be very effective anywhere in my front 5, in multiple roles. 

The only change to the front 3 is when the IF on the right becomes a Winger to make room for the CM-A.

[retrodude09]

7 hours ago, alinp said:

Would it therefore be fair to say, that you're making adjustments to how your system can be effective by changing how the midfield 3 operate in terms of roles and duties, whilst leaving the back 5 and front 3 pretty much alone?

I think this point here is actually how Barcelona functioned under Guardiola. They didn't use a half-back all the time, only if it helped facilitate build-up against the likes of Atletico & their 4-4-2 otherwise, a player dropping in such as the half back does against a formation that plays a lone striker is pretty pointless. 

 

You could argue that it has it's use against 4-2-3-1 depending on the role of the AMC & how high the opposing team press. I'm not sure I'd go to a DLP not because he'd attract the ball but definitely a DM on Defence or Support would work. 

[yonko]

1 hour ago, retrodude09 said:

I think this point here is actually how Barcelona functioned under Guardiola. They didn't use a half-back all the time, only if it helped facilitate build-up against the likes of Atletico & their 4-4-2 otherwise, a player dropping in such as the half back does against a formation that plays a lone striker is pretty pointless. 

 

You could argue that it has it's use against 4-2-3-1 depending on the role of the AMC & how high the opposing team press. 

Exactly.

Against the 4-2-3-1 Wide formation I look if the AMC is playing as SS - you can tell when looking at the formation widget if the AMC is close to the ST.

[alinp]

10 hours ago, yonko said:

Exactly.

Against the 4-2-3-1 Wide formation I look if the AMC is playing as SS - you can tell when looking at the formation widget if the AMC is close to the ST.

So on occasions you don't use a HB, do you drop the WB's back to the FB positions?

[jukilo]

Hey guys!

Even if my football preferences don't match with this kind of football, I decided  to load up FM again and start with this kind of approach.  Specially because nowadays I don't have the time to create something with which I identify. But that's another story.

I decided to start with my beloved Benfica just because we have some quality players to play in the front 3 and some quality in midfield. Besides, the gulf of quality to the other teams allow to play some quality youngsters we have and give them precious game time. And Benfica have some quality prospects!

Speaking in practical terms, I'm at the end of October undefeated in all competitions. Including CL (Atletico Madrid, Plzen and Salzburg), League and Super Cup I have like 2 or 3 goals against. So, it is very stable defensively.

Regarding the tactic, I made some changes, using some of the experiences described here. I have 3 versions as well, the CD are normal ones, I often change the AP to CM (A) to allow more movement if required, my AMR change depending on the player, etc.

I started the game against Atletico (at home) with the control one to try and gain advantage early on. They were all over us but luckily we had a goal from a corner. Switched to the defensive version and never looked back. I ended the game with 0 shots on target against.

Another thing I want to refer is that we must see where the free man will be (Cruyff talked about this often) and try to use it to benefit our game play. I faced a 442 diamond and it is 4 against 3 in the midfield (the SS doesn't contribute much defensively) and 2vs2 in defence. So the free man will always be on the wings. I was 1-0 up and having a lot of troubles. I was playing with the Control version with the distribution to CD. So I changed to the Defensive one, changed the distribution to wing backs and the AP to CM (A). Almost instantly I regained the control of the game and eventually I won the game 3-0.

All in all, listen to what Ozil says but adapt it to your own players and circumstances.

[yonko]

10 hours ago, alinp said:

So on occasions you don't use a HB, do you drop the WB's back to the FB positions?

No point using HB when not required.

WBs never drop to FB position.

[retrodude09]

I think when a HB isn't necessary, I would change the position to a standard Defensive Midfielder (on either mentality). You could argue that Busquets is a playmaker but, I would rather see the ball go to Xavi or Iniesta (or whoever you have in their positions) than to Busquets.

It would also be interesting to see a RPM instead of a DLP & the effects that has? 

 

[alinp]

@yonko - I've been looking back at your posts in this thread and the evolution of your approach.  Given the adjustments you state earlier to your Season 2 version, are you no longer using your Attacking and Defensive versions?  It seems to me that with your default Control version, Standard variations, Counter option & Role changes, these other 2 versions you had for season 1 become redundant.