Pep's Barcelona (Very Fluid)

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, BadAss88 said:

Is there a reason you use a WB(s) on the left and not a CWB(s) as you do on the right? Is it for more balance next to your AP(a)? Or just to replicate Abidal?

Purely the players available. Alba is a great out-and-out wingback so he plays the wingback role. Coutinho is a world-class all-round player so I'm happy for him to roam from position a bit more and try to get involved elsewhere.

[PonjaConRulos]

Hi Ozil, I loved your other works but I don't agree with this one. I haven't seen a Pep Barca's game in a while, but I think the Pedro-Messi-Villa is different in your system. First, in the video of Neymar, almost every goal is a typical goal from a Shadow Striker: long ball behind the defenders and the SS just runs into a 1v1. Messi was more likely to get the ball behind the DM and he dribbled the defenders or pass it to the IF, because almost every time Villa and Pedro were beside the defensive line stretching the opposition, making the "pocket" larger. I see something similiar in this play: (2:53)

 

 

Also, Neymar rarely participates in the playmaking, and Dybala and Suárez seem to participate more. Except from this goal (3:20), Neymar just lays around waiting the moment to do his run. 

So, what I'm trying to say is that I see some things of the Pedro-Messi-Villa's movements, but they seem exceptions instead of the usual. 

[yonko]

35 minutes ago, PonjaConRulos said:

Hi Ozil, I loved your other works but I don't agree with this one. I haven't seen a Pep Barca's game in a while, but I think the Pedro-Messi-Villa is different in your system. First, in the video of Neymar, almost every goal is a typical goal from a Shadow Striker: long ball behind the defenders and the SS just runs into a 1v1. Messi was more likely to get the ball behind the DM and he dribbled the defenders or pass it to the IF, because almost every time Villa and Pedro were beside the defensive line stretching the opposition, making the "pocket" larger. I see something similiar in this play: (2:53)

 

 

Also, Neymar rarely participates in the playmaking, and Dybala and Suárez seem to participate more. Except from this goal (3:20), Neymar just lays around waiting the moment to do his run. 

So, what I'm trying to say is that I see some things of the Pedro-Messi-Villa's movements, but they seem exceptions instead of the usual. 

The reason why you didn't see Messi score goals like in those videos is that IRL most team played defensive against Pep's Barca and denied them space behind. But every once in awhile when teams felt more like attacking Barca, Messi was played behind their defense.

If you use the tactic posted in this thread and play Messi as the SS you will see him do what he normally did IRL under Pep. That's because he has "comes deep to get ball" PPM, while Neymar doesn't. The PPM helps him get more involved in the build ups like IRL, while the aggressive nature of the SS role makes him storm forward in space when opportunity is there (which is more often in FM than IRL, because of the difference in the opponents' playing mentality/approach).

Messi's style has mostly been to drop deep, participate in the build up, initiate play with either penetrating dribble or pass and then charge into the penalty box. In regards to Villa and Pedro, IMO the former was always more aggressive and attacking than the latter. You can change the AML as Raumdeuter while leaving the AMR the way it is.

[PonjaConRulos]

32 minutes ago, yonko said:

The reason why you didn't see Messi score goals like in those videos is that IRL most team played defensive against Pep's Barca and denied them space behind. But every once in awhile when teams felt more like attacking Barca, Messi was played behind their defense.

If you use the tactic posted in this thread and play Messi as the SS you will see him do what he normally did IRL under Pep. That's because he has "comes deep to get ball" PPM, while Neymar doesn't. The PPM helps him get more involved in the build ups like IRL, while the aggressive nature of the SS role makes him storm forward in space when opportunity is there (which is more often in FM than IRL, because of the difference in the opponents' playing mentality/approach).

Messi's style has mostly been to drop deep, participate in the build up, initiate play with either penetrating dribble or pass and then charge into the penalty box. In regards to Villa and Pedro, IMO the former was always more aggressive and attacking than the latter. You can change the AML as Raumdeuter while leaving the AMR the way it is.

Maybe you're right about the defensive teams (in the video it's always v Real Madrid), but when you play strikerless, the opposition defensive line always gets higher.

About Neymar, Ozil said he learned Comes deep to get the ball PPM, in order to make him more similar to Messi. 

 

Edited March 3, 2017 by PonjaConRulos

[yonko]

You are correct. I had forgotten that, plus I thought you were talking about Neymar at the start of your save. However if you watch the whole video of Neymar scoring, you will see a little bit of everything. I think @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! has purposely made such a video to show different things. See how Neymar comes very deep to participate in build up. I think his behavior mimics that of Messi IRL under Pep. Of course it is not going to be exact replica for a few reasons, which I think you should recognize - FM is not real life, even though it's a good simulation game, Messi has unique style of play that pretty much no one can replicate even in real life.

I think you should use this tactic with Barca for a full season before making conclusions. You just seen selected footage from a small video clip meant to show variety of things. And once again consider the fact that FM AI opponents don't play like Barca's opponents in real life under Pep. You can get very very close to how Barca played under Pep in this edition of FM (more so than ever before) but there are still some limitations, just as there are when trying to replicate many other styles/philosophies.

[Bigpapa42]

Another great article, as always, Ozil. Loving this.

One thing jumped out at me for some odd reason. Iniesta in the Xavi role and his PPMs. You had him un-learn Tries Killers Balls. Was that purely because Xavi didn't have that PPM, because it didn't fit how the tactic functioned, or because it had negative potential consequences in terms of turning the ball over with a crazy-ambitious pass? I've been using a DLP in the MC spot and have debated whether him having that is a positive or not.

[thomit]

I would say that when you have a system that uses the "retain possession" instruction - which asks every player that haven't got "more risky passes" hard coded in their default role instructions to not make risky passes - then you'll need a few roles with risky passes as a default instruction and/or  players with "killer balls" as a ppm. In this system, I would be ok with the DLP having "killer balls" ppm. The DLP is in fact one of just a couple of roles in this system that do not have more risky passes hard-coded. And in my opinion, asking Xavi to not try the odd killer ball would be ... wrong.

Note: The DLP role used to have "try killer balls" hard-coded - it does not now. The older role instructions would suit Xavi better than the new ones, in my opinion. As it is now, it's not even certain that you would see many killer balls from the DLP even if he has the ppm for it - because of the "retain" team instruction.

Edited March 4, 2017 by thomit

[yonko]

In Pep's system, Iniesta was the one trying more killer passes. Xavi was more selective and he was often the deeper one too. 

[thomit]

7 hours ago, yonko said:

In Pep's system, Iniesta was the one trying more killer passes. Xavi was more selective and he was often the deeper one too. 

Yes, exactly. The AP (Iniesta) in this system we're discussing in this thread, gets the "more risky passes" instruction, and the DLP (Xavi) does not, his passing is set to neutral as default in that respect. Which would be fine, but when we add the "retain possession" TI, the DLP now gets a "don't try any risky passes" instruction. And that does not compute with me; that's not the Xavi I remember. Often - no. Now and then - yes. Rarely - no.

Edited March 4, 2017 by thomit

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 3 March 2017 at 19:44, PonjaConRulos said:

Hi Ozil, I loved your other works but I don't agree with this one. I haven't seen a Pep Barca's game in a while, but I think the Pedro-Messi-Villa is different in your system. First, in the video of Neymar, almost every goal is a typical goal from a Shadow Striker: long ball behind the defenders and the SS just runs into a 1v1. Messi was more likely to get the ball behind the DM and he dribbled the defenders or pass it to the IF, because almost every time Villa and Pedro were beside the defensive line stretching the opposition, making the "pocket" larger. I see something similiar in this play: (2:53)

 

 

Also, Neymar rarely participates in the playmaking, and Dybala and Suárez seem to participate more. Except from this goal (3:20), Neymar just lays around waiting the moment to do his run. 

So, what I'm trying to say is that I see some things of the Pedro-Messi-Villa's movements, but they seem exceptions instead of the usual. 

Fair enough. As I say throughout these threads, everyone interprets football differently. That's why it's important to set out exactly what you're trying to re-create at the outset, otherwise it's simply too vague. This is simply my interpretation.

As for the long-balls from defenders - I am not sure where you are getting that from?

Over the course of the entire season Pique managed - a whopping - 2 assists. whilst Romagnoli got 3. What's more they both achieved around 85% pass completion which would be pretty phenomenal for a long-ball game. Also, neither managed a single assist in any of the Real Madrid games shown.

As for where the goals actually come from (in all competitions), it's pretty well spread across the team:

Messi 30 assists
Neymar 29 assists
Luis Suarez 26 assists
Dybala 20 assists

Whilst the assist types, in my last 50 games in all competitions.

Pass: 24
Cross: 33
Through Ball: 46

As for Neymar not being involved enough - in addition to his 29 assists in all Competitions - Neymar hit 62 key passes in La Liga. Only Messi (84) getting more and Suarez coming in 3rd with 49.

The goals against Real Madrid come from a lot of through balls - yes - but this is due to the way Real Madrid played, leaving lots of space in behind to attack.

 

On 4 March 2017 at 00:41, Bigpapa42 said:

Another great article, as always, Ozil. Loving this.

One thing jumped out at me for some odd reason. Iniesta in the Xavi role and his PPMs. You had him un-learn Tries Killers Balls. Was that purely because Xavi didn't have that PPM, because it didn't fit how the tactic functioned, or because it had negative potential consequences in terms of turning the ball over with a crazy-ambitious pass? I've been using a DLP in the MC spot and have debated whether him having that is a positive or not.

All 3, certainly. Once I realised Iniesta was the man for the Xavi role, as soon as I played a few games I knew that he needed tweaking. Instruction wise it was impossible due to the high creative freedom so he had to get the correct traits.

There were two key moments where I noticed dramatic and instant improvements - the first was coming deep to get the ball, the second was stopping the killer balls.

The first got the movement right, the second got the passing style right.

 

21 hours ago, thomit said:

I would say that when you have a system that uses the "retain possession" instruction - which asks every player that haven't got "more risky passes" hard coded in their default role instructions to not make risky passes - then you'll need a few roles with risky passes as a default instruction and/or  players with "killer balls" as a ppm. In this system, I would be ok with the DLP having "killer balls" ppm. The DLP is in fact one of just a couple of roles in this system that do not have more risky passes hard-coded. And in my opinion, asking Xavi to not try the odd killer ball would be ... wrong.

Note: The DLP role used to have "try killer balls" hard-coded - it does not now. The older role instructions would suit Xavi better than the new ones, in my opinion. As it is now, it's not even certain that you would see many killer balls from the DLP even if he has the ppm for it - because of the "retain" team instruction.

There are a lot of rumours flying around regarding retain possession. Is this definitely still the case?

Here is a screenshot of the DLP(S) player instructions in my system:

As you can see, Play Risky Passes is set to neutral for the role, with the 'Fewer' option unavailable. In which case this is:

a) No longer the case.
b) Not represented properly in the Tactics Creator.

Neither of which would surprise me 

 

17 hours ago, yonko said:

In Pep's system, Iniesta was the one trying more killer passes. Xavi was more selective and he was often the deeper one too. 

I agree. That is massively the case here. Messi leads the way for Assists and Key Passes whilst Iniesta for Pass Completion % and number of passes.

 

9 hours ago, thomit said:

Yes, exactly. The AP (Iniesta) in this system we're discussing in this thread, gets the "more risky passes" instruction, and the DLP (Xavi) does not, his passing is set to neutral as default in that respect. Which would be fine, but when we add the "retain possession" TI, the DLP now gets a "don't try any risky passes" instruction. And that does not compute with me; that's not the Xavi I remember. Often - no. Now and then - yes. Rarely - no.

See reply above - regarding whether this is actually happening.

[yonko]

In the video we can see that Iniesta (in the Xavi role) plays through balls when in position to do so and when the opportunity is there. Who knows what's happening with the instructions but remember that Very Fluid adds creative freedom to the equation. In addition, consider Iniesta's decision and vision attributes. There are many variables to the equation. 

Xavi's role was possession controller, not through ball wizard/machine. The video here shows the role very accurately IMO. 

If someone wants more through balls from the role, select More Risky Passes, change the role to AP-S or select TI Pass Into Space.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Yes, I was very happy with the passing from Iniesta in the Xavi role.

If I'd had a younger player with more mobility (Iniesta really decreased physically), I'd have toyed with the Roaming Playmaker. More like a younger Xavi in that incredible performance against Real Madrid where he was everywhere.

[thomit]

I believe it to be a UI glitch. Other team instructions, like "Dribble less" doesn't visually change the instructions for individual roles properly either, despite that team instruction is supposed to work as "any roles that do not have dribble more as a default (locked) instruction, will be set to dribble rarely". Now we all would expect and like to see that change in team instructions to be properly indicated in the individual instructions, wouldn't we? Well it just does not happen. My take on it is that team instructions do indeed work as they are supposed to do, but are just not indicated - neccessarily -  with any visual changes to the individual instructions. Otherwise, if we take only what we see in the individual instructions to be "the truth", we must assume that many of the team instructions simply do not work as intended.

But anyway - whatever is the case, I would have no major concern with a player in that DLP role having a "tries killer balls" ppm.  Certainly not enough concern to make that player "unlearn" it. In a similar system of mine, I have Cazorla as DLP/s and Özil as AP(a) - and they do beautiful work together, and no noticable excess of killer ball attempts from the DLP - even if playing without the "retain" instruction. The vast majority of Cazorla's passes are of the "controlling possession" type, with Özil much more willing to unlock the defense with that clever pass - just like intended. And they both have that ppm ...

Edit: When I say "glitch", I think it's more a case of "we just couldn't bother" ...

Edited March 5, 2017 by thomit

[Anaconda Vice]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! You already know my thoughts on what a fantastic thread this is. Some of the attacking football really is stupendous and it's funny how you can see players acting like their real life counterparts.

Really enjoying the system thus far! Did you ever have problems unlocking defensive teams? Anything you would add in those situations? I was thinking of playing wider to stretch defences a bit more.

[Michael Zorc]

There used to be a bug in previous FM versions whereby "strikerless" squads were prone to players moaning about lack of depth if you sold all your strikers - is this still the case in FM17?

Also, on the tactic itself, midfield triangles in FM17 (particularly when using playmakers in the 2 MC spots) tend to be too narrow so I'm experimenting with different roles/duties to get a better balance there as efficient and adequate spacing between players has always been a big thing for Guardiola. I think this is mostly an FM issue though.

Overall, I like what you've done, especially the way to AP (A) combines with the SS (A). I think the way you've represented the striker role here is a lot closer to Messi's real life movement during that time, as opposed to the FM17 interpretation of the F9 role - and I feel it gives you a much better balance defensively against teams that use a DM. I also like the support roles on the wide attackers as they did drop when in the defensive third, something often overlooked when people try to re-create that Barcelona side on FM.

I'll continue to experiment with this, mostly the fullback (looking to get that Abidal and Alves balance improved a little) and midfield (the aftermentioned FM17 spacing issues in the middle of the park) roles to see if I can get a bit closer to real life, but still using your overall theory for style of play and most of the structure/role/duty templates you've provided.

Great work Ozil! Thanks for a very insightful piece of work! 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, Anaconda Vice said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! You already know my thoughts on what a fantastic thread this is. Some of the attacking football really is stupendous and it's funny how you can see players acting like their real life counterparts.

Really enjoying the system thus far! Did you ever have problems unlocking defensive teams? Anything you would add in those situations? I was thinking of playing wider to stretch defences a bit more.

The only minor tweak I would make was switching Coutinho into a more attacking role and overloading the right flank when we were dominating games but not scoring.

Other than that, I can't say that I had too much trouble given the attacking flair and creativity throughout the team.

 

17 minutes ago, Michael Zorc said:

There used to be a bug in previous FM versions whereby "strikerless" squads were prone to players moaning about lack of depth if you sold all your strikers - is this still the case in FM17?

Also, on the tactic itself, midfield triangles in FM17 (particularly when using playmakers in the 2 MC spots) tend to be too narrow so I'm experimenting with different roles/duties to get a better balance there as efficient and adequate spacing between players has always been a big thing for Guardiola. I think this is mostly an FM issue though.

Overall, I like what you've done, especially the way to AP (A) combines with the SS (A). I think the way you've represented the striker role here is a lot closer to Messi's real life movement during that time, as opposed to the FM17 interpretation of the F9 role - and I feel it gives you a much better balance defensively against teams that use a DM. I also like the support roles on the wide attackers as they did drop when in the defensive third, something often overlooked when people try to re-create that Barcelona side on FM.

I'll continue to experiment with this, mostly the fullback (looking to get that Abidal and Alves balance improved a little) and midfield (the aftermentioned FM17 spacing issues in the middle of the park) roles to see if I can get a bit closer to real life, but still using your overall theory for style of play and most of the structure/role/duty templates you've provided.

Great work Ozil! Thanks for a very insightful piece of work! 

Not sure as I still had quite a few strikers - Suarez, Dybala, Neymar, Messi, Alcacer on the bench - so it never became an issue.

Glad to hear you're enjoying it!

 

[noikeee]

 

Looks like the AI in my game world has been reading this thread. I wonder if they'll play him as wingback? 

[A.Pierfrancesco]

Nice thread @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! since FM2016 I was trying to replicate this system with almost the same role. Probably the only differences are in the "messi role" (i was using a F9 but then I tried with a SS and I've discovered a whole new world) and on the duty of the WBs.

Just few questions, do you like the tendency of the CWB to run wide with the ball? I've found it a bit disappointing since I think it isn't a pure "possession based" thing, I prefer to use the standard WB on support duty. The problem is that with defensive teams probably is better to have a role with an higher mentality but then if you select the Attacking duty here again the run wide with the ball PI....

Second question, how do you think the tactic would change if you choose the RPM instead of the DLP (obv with a proper player, I think Iniesta is not suited for that role)?

Third question, after watching the whole Barcelona Pep's era  I think that I prefer to use the Salida Lavolpiana mostly when the opposite team were playing with a pair of ST or with a ST and a AMC, here when Sergio come deep between the two defender they will cope better the two opposite player. Don't you think is a bit useless when the opposite team plays with only one striker? The two defender will perfectly cope with only one opposite player, without the necessity to have a third player in the defense.

Final question (more a request actually), can you post some stat about your result with possession? Especially the % of possession the number of passes per game.

 

OT

What do you think about the Bayern Pep's era? It would be interesting to re-create a system with the two inverted full backs...     

[alinp]

14 hours ago, A.Pierfrancesco said:

OT

What do you think about the Bayern Pep's era? It would be interesting to re-create a system with the two inverted full backs...     

Another OT - have you thought about looking at what he's doing right now at City.  The width they play with is impressive and he's getting the best out of Sterling & Sane.

[thomit]

I am actually playing a system right now that has a RPM and a CM/attack (with roaming and more risky passes). Not entirely the same setup as ÖttA's, but close enough. I have an anchor man behind those two midfielders instead of a HB, and I play a "regular" 4123 DM Wide formation, with a CF/attack up front. Left wing back is attacking (initially, at least), right wing back is support. Left AM is a IF/support with roaming and sit narrower, right AM is a IF/attack. Both CD's are "regular" CD/defend. Control/Very Fluid with shorter passing, close down more, retain possession, work ball into box and whipped crosses. 

Özil or Cazorla are my RPM's, Ramsey is my CM/attack. Both Özil and Cazorla delivers brilliant work as RPM's, and Ramsey's goal-scoring is in the double digits. The whole thing produces some beautiful football, and wouldn't be miles away from ÖttA's setup; the biggest difference being the change from HB to Anchor and the positioning of the CD's that that produces. The CM/attack is a AP/attack in disguise, but being a bit more aggressively attacking. The initial positioning of the WB's are of no matter when attacking, and the Anchor functions mostly the same as a HB in a established defense. Because of the difference in positioning of the CD's that the change from HB to Anchor produces, my GK distributes to the wingbacks, not the CD's. That's about it.

Edit: Why Anchor and not HB? Because I want a "flat" back four, I'm most comfortable with that. And the HB - or rather; the CD's won't position themselves as intended in a flat back four with a HB in front; the wingbacks need to be moved up into the "WB" positions for that effect to work somewhat properly. I'm sure it can work splendidly in a setup like ÖttA's - and a small experiment suggests to me that it can - but it's just not quite my cup of tea.

Btw; as soon as I can find a decent enough player for the DL position, I will try a CWB role.

Edited March 6, 2017 by thomit

[PonjaConRulos]

On 5/3/2017 at 06:05, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Fair enough. As I say throughout these threads, everyone interprets football differently. That's why it's important to set out exactly what you're trying to re-create at the outset, otherwise it's simply too vague. This is simply my interpretation.

As for the long-balls from defenders - I am not sure where you are getting that from?

Over the course of the entire season Pique managed - a whopping - 2 assists. whilst Romagnoli got 3. What's more they both achieved around 85% pass completion which would be pretty phenomenal for a long-ball game. Also, neither managed a single assist in any of the Real Madrid games shown.

As for where the goals actually come from (in all competitions), it's pretty well spread across the team:

Messi 30 assists
Neymar 29 assists
Luis Suarez 26 assists
Dybala 20 assists

Whilst the assist types, in my last 50 games in all competitions.

Pass: 24
Cross: 33
Through Ball: 46

As for Neymar not being involved enough - in addition to his 29 assists in all Competitions - Neymar hit 62 key passes in La Liga. Only Messi (84) getting more and Suarez coming in 3rd with 49.

The goals against Real Madrid come from a lot of through balls - yes - but this is due to the way Real Madrid played, leaving lots of space in behind to attack.

I didn't meant to say that defenders made the assists, sorry if my English isn't good enough. 

I was talking about the through balls to Neymar. He gets the ball behind the defensive line and not in front of, like Messi used to. But I suppose that this is because every video is against Real Madrid and I understand that. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 6 March 2017 at 00:30, A.Pierfrancesco said:

Nice thread @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! since FM2016 I was trying to replicate this system with almost the same role. Probably the only differences are in the "messi role" (i was using a F9 but then I tried with a SS and I've discovered a whole new world) and on the duty of the WBs.

Just few questions, do you like the tendency of the CWB to run wide with the ball? I've found it a bit disappointing since I think it isn't a pure "possession based" thing, I prefer to use the standard WB on support duty. The problem is that with defensive teams probably is better to have a role with an higher mentality but then if you select the Attacking duty here again the run wide with the ball PI....

Second question, how do you think the tactic would change if you choose the RPM instead of the DLP (obv with a proper player, I think Iniesta is not suited for that role)?

Third question, after watching the whole Barcelona Pep's era  I think that I prefer to use the Salida Lavolpiana mostly when the opposite team were playing with a pair of ST or with a ST and a AMC, here when Sergio come deep between the two defender they will cope better the two opposite player. Don't you think is a bit useless when the opposite team plays with only one striker? The two defender will perfectly cope with only one opposite player, without the necessity to have a third player in the defense.

Final question (more a request actually), can you post some stat about your result with possession? Especially the % of possession the number of passes per game.

 

OT

What do you think about the Bayern Pep's era? It would be interesting to re-create a system with the two inverted full backs...     

Glad to hear you're finding it useful! 

1) I do, yes. The wingback offers width, when the wide forwards cut inside which allows us to continue stretching the defence.

In my opinion, width really helps the circulation of possession. It occupies an opposition player, forcing them to stay wide or leave your wide-player open. In turn that means there are two less bodies in the centre (4 if it's happening on the other side as well) which gives your central players more room to play and space to move into.

To me - a crowded area generally helps the defence whereas open space helps the attacking team.

2) It could actually benefit the system. A player with the correct stamina, work-rate and intelligent movement could be really dangerous.

3) Yes, and no. It's less useful when only facing one attacker but still beneficial overall.

When the centre backs fan out and the wing backs push forward this still creates a 2v1 against the opponent's wide player. The half-back dropping deep also creates more space for the central midfield to receive the ball and play, could drag an opposition midfielder forwards too and then have multiple easy passes to bypass him.

That said, build up play is certainly easier against one sole attacker so you have lots of other options.

As for the stats request - I'd rather not turn this into a stats chat. Cleon mentions in his thread that stats are calculated differently in FM v real-life and I am way more interested in a style of play than a % possession or a number of passes. In general - possession is always high, pretty much always higher than the opposition. It's also lower, when we score more goals. Pass numbers are typically 80-100 for Iniesta - highest I noticed was 120+ completed vs Madrid - and slightly less for Messi with more key passes and assists.

Really enjoying watching Pep build Man City. To me - it's the same playing style but a different structure. I'd say you've got all the information between these threads to have a go for yourself and I'm happy to help out where needed?

 

15 hours ago, thomit said:

I am actually playing a system right now that has a RPM and a CM/attack (with roaming and more risky passes). Not entirely the same setup as ÖttA's, but close enough. I have an anchor man behind those two midfielders instead of a HB, and I play a "regular" 4123 DM Wide formation, with a CF/attack up front. Left wing back is attacking (initially, at least), right wing back is support. Left AM is a IF/support with roaming and sit narrower, right AM is a IF/attack. Both CD's are "regular" CD/defend. Control/Very Fluid with shorter passing, close down more, retain possession, work ball into box and whipped crosses. 

Özil or Cazorla are my RPM's, Ramsey is my CM/attack. Both Özil and Cazorla delivers brilliant work as RPM's, and Ramsey's goal-scoring is in the double digits. The whole thing produces some beautiful football, and wouldn't be miles away from ÖttA's setup; the biggest difference being the change from HB to Anchor and the positioning of the CD's that that produces. The CM/attack is a AP/attack in disguise, but being a bit more aggressively attacking. The initial positioning of the WB's are of no matter when attacking, and the Anchor functions mostly the same as a HB in a established defense. Because of the difference in positioning of the CD's that the change from HB to Anchor produces, my GK distributes to the wingbacks, not the CD's. That's about it.

Edit: Why Anchor and not HB? Because I want a "flat" back four, I'm most comfortable with that. And the HB - or rather; the CD's won't position themselves as intended in a flat back four with a HB in front; the wingbacks need to be moved up into the "WB" positions for that effect to work somewhat properly. I'm sure it can work splendidly in a setup like ÖttA's - and a small experiment suggests to me that it can - but it's just not quite my cup of tea.

Btw; as soon as I can find a decent enough player for the DL position, I will try a CWB role.

Interesting.

I've not used an Anchor Man too much. When I play a flat back four I play either a flat midfield trio - for the benefit of the higher line and compactness - or a deep playmaker - because it's fun

At Arsenal with their funds, there's no better complete wing back than Marcelo. One of my favourite signings of FM2017 so far.

 

13 hours ago, PonjaConRulos said:

I didn't meant to say that defenders made the assists, sorry if my English isn't good enough. 

I was talking about the through balls to Neymar. He gets the ball behind the defensive line and not in front of, like Messi used to. But I suppose that this is because every video is against Real Madrid and I understand that. 

Ah, no problem.

That's more to do with Real Madrid playing a higher defensive line and a Casemiro in front of the defence so the space is in behind.

That's one of the advantages of a system like this - it plays where the space is due to the high creative freedom, broad instructions and intelligent players.

[yonko]

At City I would say that the wingbacks are not that adventurous (because they are not that young and of the required quality), Silva is RPM, De Bryuine is CM-A and Aguero is actually playing as ST in CF-S role. Also perhaps I would give the IF on the left side an attack duty too.

[thomit]

8 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 

At Arsenal with their funds, there's no better complete wing back than Marcelo. One of my favourite signings of FM2017 so far.

Ah, but Marcelo is too old and too pricey for me. I had my eye on Alex Sandro, and my scouts told me at one point that it was possible for a reasonable sum of money, but before I could make a move for him Juventus gave him a new 150k/week contract, and now neither he nor Juve are in any mood to negotiate. Now I have two youngsters looking very promising in my sights instead. Future prospects are more fun than established players

[Anaconda Vice]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! How would you feel about playing two CWB's?

[yau]

On 27.02.2017 at 16:17, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Defensive and Structured, with this distribution of duties would result in considerably lower mentalities so lots of side-ways passing, very conservative play and minimal creative freedom to break from that. You'd probably get good possession and passing numbers but - to me - it'd be tika-taka at it's worst. You'd need to think very carefully about how you turn this into positive, pro-active football.

I can understand where you are coming from in terms of Guardiola having structured teams, however I think we are misusing the word structured in an FM context.

The structure in Guardiola's case is the half-back dropping deep to get the ball, with inside forwards staying wide until late on, the controlled build up play, triangles in midfield etc, etc. None of these things require using a Structured team shape, instead you implement them in your team structure.

Apologies if that is complicated.

Think this way - Very Fluid gives your players freedom to play football within a structure / framework. Which - in my opinion - replicates Guardiola, but we do all see football differently so do what you see fit.

 

How about number of passing in your control mentality?

How many times Iniesta (in Xavi role) pass the ball per game? is it close to RL? 

 

 

And one think about DLP risky passes discussion - in 4 year under Joseph Guardiola, Iniesta menage to get 35 assist, while Xavi 64. Ofc Xavis role evolved from roaming playmaker in 2008-2010 (45 assists) to DLP or even regista 2010-2012 (19 assist), but this stats prove they both got at least the same risk takes/creative freedom instructions.

IMO Iniesta opens space by dribble more than by through ball

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

15 hours ago, yonko said:

At City I would say that the wingbacks are not that adventurous (because they are not that young and of the required quality), Silva is RPM, De Bryuine is CM-A and Aguero is actually playing as ST in CF-S role. Also perhaps I would give the IF on the left side an attack duty too.

Yep, I agree. The City side is a work-in-progress given it's his first season. I'd be interested to see how things look 2-3 seasons in, assuming he gets that long.

 

15 hours ago, thomit said:

Ah, but Marcelo is too old and too pricey for me. I had my eye on Alex Sandro, and my scouts told me at one point that it was possible for a reasonable sum of money, but before I could make a move for him Juventus gave him a new 150k/week contract, and now neither he nor Juve are in any mood to negotiate. Now I have two youngsters looking very promising in my sights instead. Future prospects are more fun than established players

Oh I dunno - look at Marcelo's stats and traits and tell me that's not a lot of fun!

He's the only classic Brazilian wing-back out there with flair, attacking and all-round technical ability. Florenzi is the only other to come close - younger, more expensive but not at the same level.

Flair is so tough to find for modern wing-backs, that's why I retrained Coutinho.

Enjoy!

 

14 hours ago, Anaconda Vice said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! How would you feel about playing two CWB's?

Nothing against it but the reward may not be worth the risk.

You'd need to make accommodations to allow for it, so it depends what you see as the attacking benefit. It works on the right as Coutinho combines with Dybala and there's space to drift in ahead of Iniesta. On the left, it's putting another player into a similar role as Messi.

I'd be more inclined to add the attacking PIs with the exception of Roaming.

 

13 hours ago, yau said:

 

How about number of passing in your control mentality?

How many times Iniesta (in Xavi role) pass the ball per game? is it close to RL? 

 

 

And one think about DLP risky passes discussion - in 4 year under Joseph Guardiola, Iniesta menage to get 35 assist, while Xavi 64. Ofc Xavis role evolved from roaming playmaker in 2008-2010 (45 assists) to DLP or even regista 2010-2012 (19 assist), but this stats prove they both got at least the same risk takes/creative freedom instructions.

IMO Iniesta opens space by dribble more than by through ball

Answered the questions on stats one or two posts up. As I mentioned there, I'm really trying to avoid turning this into stats. Don't enjoy football-by-numbers, much more interested in what I see on the field.

In my system Messi makes more assists and key passes whilst Iniesta makes more passes and a higher %.

Agree with your thoughts on Xavi's role evolving. I'd be interested to try a Roaming Playmaker but the only player I could see capable - at the elite level - is Özil who is expensive and more importantly left footed meaning the range of passing would be different.

Keeping a close eye on academy prospects but - as yet - I'm not seeing the all-round ability.

[yonko]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! just wanted to let you know that I've started a Liverpool save with the 17.3 update using this tactic with a few tweaks. I want to see how it goes in more competitive league and with a lesser quality team (but still top team).

I've added a couple of Team Instructions: Use Tighter Marking and Prevent Short GK Distribution. I use WB instead of CWB, regular CBs instead of BPDs and everyone is instructed to Shoot Less via PI. 

So far I've only done pre-season games and used the following rotations to get everyone match fit for the season:

SK-S: Karious / Mignolet

CD-D (R): Matip / Gomez

CD-D (L): Lovren / Klavan

WB-S (R): Clyne / Alexander-Arnold (what a nice update he has had)

HB-D: Emre Can / Lucas Leiva

WB-S (L): Moreno / Milner

DLP-S: Henderson / Wijnaldum

AP-A: Lallana / Gruijc

IF-S (R): Mane / Sturridge (re-trained to AMR)

SS-A: Firmino / Ings (re-trained to AMC)

IF-S (L): Coutinho / Origi

The players lack a little vision in midfield. But provide a little more in some other areas. I have the option to switch the DLP to RPM. I could also play Coutinho with Lallana and drop Hendo to HB role....perhaps an option for home games.

Will see how it goes.

[BadAss88]

I'm starting a new save with Man City and try to implement Pep's ideas further into it! And gonna use your ideas too to make Sterling a right CWB(s)

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

16 hours ago, yonko said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! just wanted to let you know that I've started a Liverpool save with the 17.3 update using this tactic with a few tweaks. I want to see how it goes in more competitive league and with a lesser quality team (but still top team).

I've added a couple of Team Instructions: Use Tighter Marking and Prevent Short GK Distribution. I use WB instead of CWB, regular CBs instead of BPDs and everyone is instructed to Shoot Less via PI. 

So far I've only done pre-season games and used the following rotations to get everyone match fit for the season:

SK-S: Karious / Mignolet

CD-D (R): Matip / Gomez

CD-D (L): Lovren / Klavan

WB-S (R): Clyne / Alexander-Arnold (what a nice update he has had)

HB-D: Emre Can / Lucas Leiva

WB-S (L): Moreno / Milner

DLP-S: Henderson / Wijnaldum

AP-A: Lallana / Gruijc

IF-S (R): Mane / Sturridge (re-trained to AMR)

SS-A: Firmino / Ings (re-trained to AMC)

IF-S (L): Coutinho / Origi

The players lack a little vision in midfield. But provide a little more in some other areas. I have the option to switch the DLP to RPM. I could also play Coutinho with Lallana and drop Hendo to HB role....perhaps an option for home games.

Will see how it goes.

Good luck!

Interesting to hear how you go. In Liverpool's squad I'd be tempted to put Coutinho in the middle as your best Playmaker. Firminho is also one of the best Support-duty strikers out there so Mane and - off the top of my head - a new signing cutting in from the other flank could be your attacking threats.

I'd be worried about Can, Henderson and Lallana not having the quality to compete for the League / CL but Coutinho could be excellent.

[Ji-Sung Park]

Well done, OP! This actually looks a lot like the current Dortmund setup IRL, maybe except for the HB. 

[A.Pierfrancesco]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I got some problems, I'm playing with Ajax (I know they aren't brace so I can not expect much quality) and as I said my tactic is more or less the same as your. The point is that mainly of my goals came from crosses from the WBs, probably because the only available space is on the flanks as each team which I'm playing against simply park the bus and hit me on the counter. When I enter in the final third my IFs who are instructed to play wider in order to stretch the pitch cut inside in the "golden zone" with also my SS and my AP-DLP camping at the edge of the area, then the only space available is on the flanks where my WBs (also instructed to play wider) are putting non stop crossing trying to find players in the area. 

I think the main problem is that we are too much aggressive, we are camping in the edge of the area and the other team simply park the bus not allowing us to play that killer ball which unlock the defense. 

How would you try to do to solve this problem? My main though is to switch to standard and slow down the tempo in order to let the opposite defense to stay a bit higher and so get more space to try killer balls. My second though is to switch to flexible or structured in order to create more space between the line.

[coach vahid]

hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

When do you update your thread cause i would like to know how you train your players for this philosophy( masia,head of youth ect...)

Thanks.

[Callummack]

On 15/03/2017 at 18:19, coach vahid said:

hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

When do you update your thread cause i would like to know how you train your players for this philosophy( masia,head of youth ect...)

Thanks.

 @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[yonko]

Hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!,

Just wanted to post an update on my 1st season with Liverpool testing and experimenting with this tactic.

I won the league undefeated, winning 25 and drawing 13 games, but failed at the cup competitions. Didn't try that hard at them to be honest.

In the league, the team scored 79 goals while allowing only 20. I pretty much played my best 11 in as many games as possible. Rotated the squad for the cup matches.

Using such tactic requires a lot of management to make it work with Liverpool. I found it very interesting and this is certainly one of the best saves I've had the last few FM editions. The tactic evolved as the season progressed. Pretty early on I set up 3 variations of the tactic with a few small differences here and there, but the biggest difference was mentality. The 3 variations were:

Control Mentality - Retain Possession, Shorter Passing, Play Out Of Defense, Close Down More,  Prevent Short GK Distribution and Pass Into Space added. 

Defensive Mentality - Retain Possession, Shorter Passing, Play Out Of Defense, Close Down More, Tighter Marking and Quicker Tempo added.

Attacking Mentality - Retain Possession, Shorter Passing, Play Out Of Defense, Close Down Much More,  Prevent Short GK Distribution, Pass Into Space and Get Stuck In added.

The Control version was the default choice. Defensive was used to start away matches against the other top sides - Man United, Chelsea, Man City, Tottenham and Arsenal - and to shut up shop otherwise. Attacking version was used to get something more from the game - a winning goal, a second goal to establish dominance, sometimes I would even start a game with it.

In terms of player roles, I changed the BPDs into regular CDs simply because of difference in quality and I wanted to keep it simple. With the same idea I wanted to keep the PIs limited to a few. The SK has the usual short distribution instructions. The front 3 each have one PI - Get Further Forward for both Inside Forwards and Roam From Position for the Shadow Striker. The rest of the roles are completely default. In midfield I started the season with a DLP until January when I was able to make some transfers. Another reason this is turning into my favorite save is because I bought exactly the players I wanted when I wanted them - Eric Dier, Dele Alli and Will Hughes - young, English, versatile. This allowed me to change the DLP role to RPM for Dele Alli.

Another change is when using Defensive version is to make the AP to Support role and both IFs to Attack role. This is devastating on the counter and in most occasions it leads to a goal as the opponents try to get back in the game.

Naturally, the Shadow Striker is the main attraction with this tactic. Roberto Firmino was my leading scorer. He accomplished 3rd place in both Ballon D'or and World Player of the Year awards (Messi won both of course, Thiago Alcantara was second). He also won PFA and FWA awards, as well as Liverpool Fan's player of the season award. His stats for the season were: 35(5) - 24 - 10 - 7.53.

In conclusion, I would say that the first part of the season was trial and error mostly until I found what works for Liverpool and the players I had. I tried to simplify it and focused on match management. As I said, this is very challenging tactic with lesser team, even if they are of the quality of Liverpool. I would say that the most important positions to focus on (and make sure you have quality players there) are the 4 in the center and spine of the system - HB, DLP, AP and SS. The HB will have to intercept and tackle a lot (more than the defenders even), he will need a lot of energy and intelligence to do so, plus he will play a key role in the build up/recycling of possession. The SS will have to create, score, assist and be the first line of defense. It is very helpful to have someone as DLP who Comes Deep To Get Ball and someone as the AP who either Gets Forward or Gets Into Opposition Area - it adds a nice dynamic into the midfield.

I will keep going with the save and see what happens. 

[A.Pierfrancesco]

3 hours ago, yonko said:

Hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!,

Just wanted to post an update on my 1st season with Liverpool testing and experimenting with this tactic.

I won the league undefeated, winning 25 and drawing 13 games, but failed at the cup competitions. Didn't try that hard at them to be honest.

In the league, the team scored 79 goals while allowing only 20. I pretty much played my best 11 in as many games as possible. Rotated the squad for the cup matches.

Using such tactic requires a lot of management to make it work with Liverpool. I found it very interesting and this is certainly one of the best saves I've had the last few FM editions. The tactic evolved as the season progressed. Pretty early on I set up 3 variations of the tactic with a few small differences here and there, but the biggest difference was mentality. The 3 variations were:

Control Mentality - Retain Possession, Shorter Passing, Play Out Of Defense, Close Down More,  Prevent Short GK Distribution and Pass Into Space added. 

Defensive Mentality - Retain Possession, Shorter Passing, Play Out Of Defense, Close Down More, Tighter Marking and Quicker Tempo added.

Attacking Mentality - Retain Possession, Shorter Passing, Play Out Of Defense, Close Down Much More,  Prevent Short GK Distribution, Pass Into Space and Get Stuck In added.

The Control version was the default choice. Defensive was used to start away matches against the other top sides - Man United, Chelsea, Man City, Tottenham and Arsenal - and to shut up shop otherwise. Attacking version was used to get something more from the game - a winning goal, a second goal to establish dominance, sometimes I would even start a game with it.

In terms of player roles, I changed the BPDs into regular CDs simply because of difference in quality and I wanted to keep it simple. With the same idea I wanted to keep the PIs limited to a few. The SK has the usual short distribution instructions. The front 3 each have one PI - Get Further Forward for both Inside Forwards and Roam From Position for the Shadow Striker. The rest of the roles are completely default. In midfield I started the season with a DLP until January when I was able to make some transfers. Another reason this is turning into my favorite save is because I bought exactly the players I wanted when I wanted them - Eric Dier, Dele Alli and Will Hughes - young, English, versatile. This allowed me to change the DLP role to RPM for Dele Alli.

Another change is when using Defensive version is to make the AP to Support role and both IFs to Attack role. This is devastating on the counter and in most occasions it leads to a goal as the opponents try to get back in the game.

Naturally, the Shadow Striker is the main attraction with this tactic. Roberto Firmino was my leading scorer. He accomplished 3rd place in both Ballon D'or and World Player of the Year awards (Messi won both of course, Thiago Alcantara was second). He also won PFA and FWA awards, as well as Liverpool Fan's player of the season award. His stats for the season were: 35(5) - 24 - 10 - 7.53.

In conclusion, I would say that the first part of the season was trial and error mostly until I found what works for Liverpool and the players I had. I tried to simplify it and focused on match management. As I said, this is very challenging tactic with lesser team, even if they are of the quality of Liverpool. I would say that the most important positions to focus on (and make sure you have quality players there) are the 4 in the center and spine of the system - HB, DLP, AP and SS. The HB will have to intercept and tackle a lot (more than the defenders even), he will need a lot of energy and intelligence to do so, plus he will play a key role in the build up/recycling of possession. The SS will have to create, score, assist and be the first line of defense. It is very helpful to have someone as DLP who Comes Deep To Get Ball and someone as the AP who either Gets Forward or Gets Into Opposition Area - it adds a nice dynamic into the midfield.

I will keep going with the save and see what happens. 

Interesting analysis, just one question, how do you cope with team that defend deep (aka park the bus)? 

[yonko]

12 hours ago, A.Pierfrancesco said:

Interesting analysis, just one question, how do you cope with team that defend deep (aka park the bus)? 

Earlier in the season I struggled with that too. Hence, why I had so many draws.

But as I figured out the tactical nuances with the team, I also figured out what adjustments to make depending on how the opponent played.

Against deep defending teams, in the second half of the season I started the games with the Attacking variation. Which usually led to an early goal. If that didn't work, I would drop the Mentality to Standard, remove Pass Into Space, remove Get Stuck In, add Width and increase Tempo. 

Once against an opponent (can't remember who at the moment) defending in a 4-1-4-1 DM formation I had to change some player roles too, in order to get a go ahead goal. I changed the WBs to Attack, the HB to DLP-D and the AP to CM-A.

This 4-1-4-1 formation is difficult to play against and requires the most tweaking to break down, from my experience. 

[retrodude09]

Retain Possession & Pass Into Space combined together seems counter-productive, almost like they cancel each other out? 

One asks players to reduce the risk they take on the ball while the other asks them to increase their risk? 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Nice work, @yonko. Apologies for the slow responses everyone - hit the closing stages of so work in Barcelona so taking up a bit more of my time.

I think we've talked about this before but the Liverpool squad - overseen by Klopp in particular - fascinates me. Really interesting to see what happens over this summer's transfer window and whether he can plug the final few gaps but I think we might be about to see something interesting.

This isn't a million miles of how they play - when on form - in real-life, although perhaps in real-life they're more intense. I'd even say Attacking mentality but and then - in FM terms - carefully balance with the formation and duties.

Interesting how Firminho performed for you. With his team work, movement and vision, I'd see him as a classic Support striker and love to see Attacking runners playing off him but saying that he's a very complete player and also has the goalscoring attributes to be the SS(A).

Depending on the type of central attacker I have available, I am happy to alternate my AML - FC / AMC - AMR attacking trident between:

• Support - Attack - Support
• Attack - Support - Attack

Something that might be interesting is having the players to alternate in the same game. The first is very focused on a key attacking player, right in the centre - as shown here - potentially lethal, the second moves the threat to the flanks - not ideal as it's away from goal - but offers two attacking threats instead of one.

I'd use my attack of Suarez - Neymar - Dybala vs Real Madrid's of Ronaldo - Benzema - Bale as an example of the difference.

10 hours ago, retrodude09 said:

Retain Possession & Pass Into Space combined together seems counter-productive, almost like they cancel each other out? 

One asks players to reduce the risk they take on the ball while the other asks them to increase their risk? 

I'd actually refer that question to @Rashidi as I could only speculate.

From what I could see - in my system - Retain Possession only shortened passing and lowered tempo. Didn't notice any changes to individual's risky passes but that could be a) that I missed something, b) it happens "under the hood" and isn't illustrated in the TC or c) the combination of roles I chose, i.e two playmakers meant they were hard coded to play through balls anyway.

In fact, from what I can see - in my system - Pass into Space has no effect, but the same caveats apply.

[yonko]

Thanks @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!,

I've been thinking of ways to further improve and tweak the tactic for my second season. I have players who can play in various roles in midfield, which gives me plenty of options to try. Of course as you say it is all about finding the balance with roles and duties.

Off to play I go.

[aderow]

I thought it was interesting that you used the stay wider PI for your IF's. Your reasoning makes a lot of sense actually. It's something I've never considered. I've always had them play the opposite giving them the sit narrower PI in order to accomplish that. It does have it's drawbacks; more of my players playing narrow just means more defenders in the same space. Most games I get by simply because my players are better and will find a way through eventually. But teams who park it can definitely frustrate me even when I tell my wide players to roam. In fact teams playing a defensive 442 have been a thorn in my side the last season or so.

I've also noticed that the my team's overall width (I always play with max width) doesn't stop them wide men from getting too narrow at times. So I think I may have to experiment a bit.

[ChrisBones1990]

@yonko did you use eric dier at halfback?

Iv started a liverpool save using a similar tactic to this. Was looking at signing eric dier dele ali and danny rose since it looks like totenham wont make the top 4. would be nice to have a core of english players aswell

Edited March 29, 2017 by ChrisBones1990

[yonko]

9 hours ago, ChrisBones1990 said:

@yonko did you use eric dier at halfback?

Iv started a liverpool save using a similar tactic to this. Was looking at signing eric dier dele ali and danny rose since it looks like totenham wont make the top 4. would be nice to have a core of english players aswell

No, I use him as Central Defender at the DCR position.

For the HB role I usually use Henderson and sometimes Emre Can.

Now in the 2nd season I also bought Jairo Riedewald can play there also.

However, I do change the role sometime to DLP-D when playing against single striker formation without anyone at the AMC spot.

This results in me changing the other midfield roles - DLP-S becomes AP-S and AP-A becomes CM-A/BBM-S.

I'm very happy with the midfield English core of Hendo, Lallana, Will Hughes and Dele Alli.

Dele is absolutely my favorite player on FM at the moment - so versatile and effective.

He is playing so well so far in the 2nd season.

[ChrisBones1990]

8 hours ago, yonko said:

No, I use him as Central Defender at the DCR position.

For the HB role I usually use Henderson and sometimes Emre Can.

Now in the 2nd season I also bought Jairo Riedewald can play there also.

However, I do change the role sometime to DLP-D when playing against single striker formation without anyone at the AMC spot.

This results in me changing the other midfield roles - DLP-S becomes AP-S and AP-A becomes CM-A/BBM-S.

I'm very happy with the midfield English core of Hendo, Lallana, Will Hughes and Dele Alli.

Dele is absolutely my favorite player on FM at the moment - so versatile and effective.

He is playing so well so far in the 2nd season.

I started the season with coutinho playing AP - A butfound lallana alot more effictive there. 

Havnt given hughes much thought. 

I bought Dele in at the end of the first season

Main 2 targets now are rose and dier since spurs didnt qualify for champs league. 

I need to upgrade the keeper aswell. Would love ter stegen but doubt i can get him so might look at butland for now or maybe leno

[Jean0987654321]

Just a heads up on the DLP role. Under the hood, risky passes are set to "sometimes" instead of "often" by default. Of course, you can just tick the PI back on. Honestly, during Pep's time at Barca, I'd say Xavi was a RP.

Messi, IMO, is a Treq in the ST strata...but of course, Ozil, I know you don't like to use that kind of role

Using wingbacks can be a bit suicide if your defense isn't world class.

If you ask me my own interpretation a "normal" 4-1-2-3 shape would be a start

[yonko]

48 minutes ago, ChrisBones1990 said:

I started the season with coutinho playing AP - A butfound lallana alot more effictive there. 

Havnt given hughes much thought. 

I bought Dele in at the end of the first season

Main 2 targets now are rose and dier since spurs didnt qualify for champs league. 

I need to upgrade the keeper aswell. Would love ter stegen but doubt i can get him so might look at butland for now or maybe leno

I was thinking of using Coutinho as either AP-A or DLP-S too, but decided to use Hendo as the DLP and Lallana as the AP. The former learned "Comes Deep" PPM, while Lallana has "Gets Into Opposition Area" which is very useful. Emre Can was used as the HB at that time.

In January I went for Dele Alli as my prime transfer target. I couldn't get him at first and worked on unsettling him. Got Hughes instead. Then I figured I should go for Dele's best friend Eric Dier. Didn't really need him as Lovren and Matip were amongst my top 5 performing players at the time. Got Dier easily and then surprisingly Tottenham accepted my low-ball offer for Dele too. So I got all three young, talented English players.

Now for the second season I've added Grimaldo, Riedewald and Denis Suarez (given no.7 of course), the latter two very versatile and can play in a few positions and roles. Notice a trend with that? It's no coincidence....I like having options and flexibility.

Now I'm experimenting with different role combinations, depending on how the opposition sets up. Still haven't lost a game in the league. Lately I'm starting to switch more often to using the following roles in midfield:

AP-S Lallana-----------BBM-S Dele Alli

--------------DLP-D Hendo---------------- 

[yonko]

15 minutes ago, Jean0987654321 said:

Just a heads up on the DLP role. Under the hood, risky passes are set to "sometimes" instead of "often" by default. Of course, you can just tick the PI back on. Honestly, during Pep's time at Barca, I'd say Xavi was a RP.

Messi, IMO, is a Treq in the ST strata...but of course, Ozil, I know you don't like to use that kind of role

Using wingbacks can be a bit suicide if your defense isn't world class.

If you ask me my own interpretation a "normal" 4-1-2-3 shape would be a start

Xavi didn't dribble as much as the RPM role does though.

Messi pressed under Pep more than a Trequartista.

Any formation is doomed without quality defenders, especially one that intends to dictate the game.

[retrodude09]

1 hour ago, yonko said:

Xavi didn't dribble as much as the RPM role does though.

Messi pressed under Pep more than a Trequartista.

Any formation is doomed without quality defenders, especially one that intends to dictate the game.

Isn't the difference between 'BBM' & 'Roaming Playmaker' minimal? Perhaps the RPM attracts the ball more but other than that, the only difference seems to be the only difference seems to be the 'dribble more' instruction

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

3 hours ago, retrodude09 said:

Isn't the difference between 'BBM' & 'Roaming Playmaker' minimal? Perhaps the RPM attracts the ball more but other than that, the only difference seems to be the only difference seems to be the 'dribble more' instruction

I'd class the playmaker v non-playmaker difference as possibly the most important difference from one role, to another. I say this because it influences the behaviour for other players as well, searching out the playmaker where possible so effecting the team play on the whole.

Aside from that, movement will be very similar between the two roles.

 

5 hours ago, Jean0987654321 said:

Just a heads up on the DLP role. Under the hood, risky passes are set to "sometimes" instead of "often" by default. Of course, you can just tick the PI back on. Honestly, during Pep's time at Barca, I'd say Xavi was a RP.

Messi, IMO, is a Treq in the ST strata...but of course, Ozil, I know you don't like to use that kind of role

Using wingbacks can be a bit suicide if your defense isn't world class.

If you ask me my own interpretation a "normal" 4-1-2-3 shape would be a start

I'm happy with the DLP playing risky passes sometimes. I want him acting as a heartbeat of the team controlling and circulating possession rather than directly creating chances although I can see see why people would interpret Xavi as a Roaming Playmaker.

You're correct about my opinion on the Trequartista role.  No forward runs and no pressing make it an absolute no for me. There's not really a hybrid playmaker / goalscorer role available which is why I settled on the Shadow Striker so I am prioritising goalscoring but as you can see, the player in this position still naturally creates a lot despite not being a designated playmaker. The opposite would probably be true for a playmaker but in order to match Messi's goalscoring I wanted to optimise goal-threat.

Re wingbacks - agreed. 100%. I've got two threads moaning at SI over this. Promised they wouldn't ignore it, but it's been thoroughly ignored for the past few months. Unfortunately it's necessary for the half-back mechanism employed in this system but it's definitely an elite strategy. Without the quality players, I'd actually use a back 3 but it wouldn't be following this system.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[jibers]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

Great attempt and one of the best interpretations of this system i've ever seen. The only criticism is the Xavi interpretation in your system.

Setting Xavi to play no through balls makes no sense considering he had 1 more assist than Iniesta in 10/11 in less minutes, played more through balls and made more key passes and pre assists and he played deeper. Limiting his role as just someone who keeps possession limits his game. 

The whole point of Xavi is his football IQ leads him to make the best decisions almost all the time. I would say he should be the only player given maximum creativity as his short passing ppm would mean he would always involve those around him and he would instinctively know the right time to make the killer pass.

All the other roles are excellent. Kudos.