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Messi and Ronaldo unrealistic stats


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How is it possible that both these guys score and assist 3x in real life as they do in-game... Messi has an avg goal ratio of 1 goal every 193 minutes and Ronaldo 1 in 201 minutes.... clearly way off the mark...

 

Barcelona has never on by 4 goals in a whole year and Real Madrid once had a 4-0 and a 5-1.... something's up with the ME.. although much improved, the simulation aspect of it is not working as intended... You guys seeing this?

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1 hour ago, phd_angel said:

yeah, i kinda agree. Super stars in FM never play like super stars. It's always a bit disappointing... :-(

Well, superstars in FM always play better than players who are simply very good, however the fact of the matter is that in real life there are certain players who are so far ahead of everybody else that accurately simulating it in the game would be an absolute nightmare and would almost certainly lead to major issues in terms of game balance.

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1 hour ago, Cougar2010 said:

Which country are you managing in?

Are you running the Spanish league on full detail?

 

Even then the ME has trouble simulating extreme players such as the like of Messi & Ronaldo.

Managing Argentina, all leagues in full detail (running every single league all in full detail)...

There's should be a hidden stat to project their stats to average their lifetime stats... That and there should be reserved over attributes for certain players... Messi for example should be above 20 dribbling or Ronaldo above 20 jumping for example.... I don't mean every player should have this but the super mega stars are better than the best in certain areas...

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2 minutes ago, Xeneize12 said:

Managing Argentina, all leagues in full detail (running every single league all in full detail)...

Have you actually changed the settings? because they wouldn't be on full by default.

Also with every league in full detail it would be very slow even by my standards.

 

2 minutes ago, Xeneize12 said:

There's should be a hidden stat to project their stats to average their lifetime stats... That and there should be reserved over attributes for certain players... Messi for example should be above 20 dribbling or Ronaldo above 20 jumping for example.... I don't mean every player should have this but the super mega stars are better than the best in certain areas...

There certainly shouldn't be a hidden stat to average lifetime stats.  FM prides itself on what it calculates on the pitch and that shouldn't be crowbarred to match some predefined figure that someone thinks they should have.

There also shouldn't be "over attributes" else whats the point of having a minimum & a maximum.  All you are doing is creating a new maximum then the rest of the database would have to be altered to suit.

 

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39 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

Have you actually changed the settings? because they wouldn't be on full by default.

Also with every league in full detail it would be very slow even by my standards.

 

Exactly what do you mean by full detail? Playable and all lower divisions? And slow is relative... 

 

Edit: Never mind found it... I was not running it in Full detail, lets see what that does.

Edited by Xeneize12
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46 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

There certainly shouldn't be a hidden stat to average lifetime stats.  FM prides itself on what it calculates on the pitch and that shouldn't be crowbarred to match some predefined figure that someone thinks they should have.

There also shouldn't be "over attributes" else whats the point of having a minimum & a maximum.  All you are doing is creating a new maximum then the rest of the database would have to be altered to suit.

 

I would agree with you if FM used the max accordingly... right now too many players have 19-20 Dribbling for example and if Messi has 20, then the next in the world should be at 18.... and then we should see 3-4 at 18 that's it...

 

The point in hidden attributes (or whatever it is that would make some players perform better than they do) is to simulate real world.... There currently is no way to have Messi for example do the things Messi does... that said, he still wins the Ballon no matter what his stats are, so it's coded somewhere that he should win it, but in my 4-5 saves he's never been the top scorer or assister or even highest average... Barcelona have fail to qualify for the CL playoff yet he still wins.... So there's some coding there, add the coding so that he performs the part... that's all am saying.

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7 hours ago, mack4ever said:

Well, superstars in FM always play better than players who are simply very good, however the fact of the matter is that in real life there are certain players who are so far ahead of everybody else that accurately simulating it in the game would be an absolute nightmare and would almost certainly lead to major issues in terms of game balance.

I agree with the first part, but not the last :) 

Messi, Ronaldo and a few more is far superior in real life than in game, but I think that this could easily cou75 (could be implemented in game. The database is too full of players with high rankings compared to the absouloute best in the world.

 

If you look at the football world today most matches is very close. You hardly see the likes of Italy, England, France beat nations like Denmark, Slovakia, Switzerland etc easily, the results is typical 1-0, 1-1, with almost a maximum of victory with 2 goals.....this meaning that the difference in quality of the players is not that high....but in game the first nations best players are far far better than the best players from the other nations mentioned. As I see football today, if you turn it into fm-terms, most top players playing for a national team is a place between CA130 and 155....but in game far far to many of these players are rated ca 155-180 or at least have the potential to be that good. When you then have a player like Messi or Ronaldo they dont get superior enough in game because they become only 10% better than a lot of players and not at least 20% (wich is more like the real world). 

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10 hours ago, DiasV said:

I agree with the first part, but not the last :) 

Messi, Ronaldo and a few more is far superior in real life than in game, but I think that this could easily cou75 (could be implemented in game. The database is too full of players with high rankings compared to the absouloute best in the world.

 

If you look at the football world today most matches is very close. You hardly see the likes of Italy, England, France beat nations like Denmark, Slovakia, Switzerland etc easily, the results is typical 1-0, 1-1, with almost a maximum of victory with 2 goals.....this meaning that the difference in quality of the players is not that high....but in game the first nations best players are far far better than the best players from the other nations mentioned. As I see football today, if you turn it into fm-terms, most top players playing for a national team is a place between CA130 and 155....but in game far far to many of these players are rated ca 155-180 or at least have the potential to be that good. When you then have a player like Messi or Ronaldo they dont get superior enough in game because they become only 10% better than a lot of players and not at least 20% (wich is more like the real world). 

Agreed, this is why we need an over cap for these situations... reserved for the 1%, namely Messi lets say with 22-23 dribbling, finishing, technique.. same with Ronaldo for jumping, heading, determination... Bale needs 21-23 acceleration... players with some overcap would perform a % better based on these... from 20-30% better... just a thought that would make this game even more realistic.

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15 minutes ago, zigaliro said:

You mean 1-100? Because stats can only be for example 13, 13.2, 13.4, but not 13.1.

No its 1-200 from 0.1 to 20.0

The training screen does only seem to show movements of 0.2 though but I'll presume its a quirk of the system.

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1 minute ago, Cougar2010 said:

No its 1-200 from 0.1 to 20.0

The training screen does only seem to show movements of 0.2 though but I'll presume its a quirk of the system.

Ok, so for example a player with 13.4 dribbling is a better dribbler than player with 13.2?

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2 minutes ago, zigaliro said:

Ok, so for example a player with 13.4 dribbling is a better dribbler than player with 13.2?

Yes the player with 13.4 has a marginally higher dribbling attribute than the one with 13.2 but you would never notice the difference from watching a match.

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There is no need to let their stats go over 20, some years ago, the final number of most technical and mental stats is calculated with ca and a hidden stats, which means if a players has high number on anything when his ca is low, that attribute might go over 20 when his ca is high, which cause the player to shoot like sniper, or make a cross with ridiculous curve.

I do however believe that most player shouldn't have ca and pa go over 150, regular premier league starter should be 110-120 for weaker team and 120-130 for top teams, with some of their key players 130-150. Only top players like Ozil can move to 150-170 range, with 190 only reserved for players like Ronaldo and Messi.

This would also close the gap at lower level so clubs below level 6 maybe have a bigger chance to reach 2nd or  3rd round proper in fa cup, something that's common irl but very rare in the game.

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10 minutes ago, iMan said:

 I've always found it easy to get a huge goal return from the superstar players aslong as they stay fit.

The issue is the AI tactics. They don't use them properly. 

I'm of the same opinion. Ai managers have a really tough time getting their role selection right other than following some basic ideas laid out in pairs & combinations guide, using the same preferred formation as Enrique & working to his tactical preferences I was able to get MSN destroying opposition defences 

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  • 1 year later...

What are the challenges for the ME/AI to recreate the numbers that Messi and Ronaldo get each season? When I have superstar players I can often make them score 60+.

(I don't want this to sound like i'm having a go at the devs, I just want to understand the challenges they face better)

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From the looks of it, they aren't even utilized in the same way they are in real life even in basic terms for a start. CR7 has been the focus point of his teams for a decade plus running, averaging 7 attempts per match (Messi still five plus). Entire partnerships were geared towards making space so that Ronaldo could shine (which has caused players such as Benzema to be colossaly misunderstood). For Zidane, this hugely focus last term was a big big issue, and even in Italy, he's already received a bit of flak, considering that he went with scoring "But" 5 goals in the league from his 8 (!) attempts average (!) per match so far. (no worries, FM doesn'T simulate this). AI don't make playeres that much of a focus ever in general (even if you technically can). Often those players aren't even fielded in positions that regularly see finishes in central position from the off.

SI may not code the AI managers to basically break the game so that they can hit continue, make a cup of coffee, see fantasy scoring rates and as a result just winwinwin either though. :D

Edited by Svenc
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Personally, in some part, i feel like it boils down to the limited attribute spread. 1-200 just doesnt feel big enough to differentiate the best in the world from the worst. 

Irl messi and ronaldo are beasts and in the game they do stand apart with the number of 20s they have. But does messi having 20 (200) and a conference striker having 10 (100) for say finishing and composure really tell the story? 

And more so when you consider the whole squad. Irl barcelona and madrid are able to consistently buy the worlds best talent... With juve and bayern next in line. Players like alba, rakitic, roberto are nowhere near messis level, but they should be a hell of a lot better than say seamus coleman and granit xhaka. But they arent.. And thats where a much bigger attribute value range would help....by making the supporting cast at the biggest teams a lot better than the next band, you can put messi and ronaldos of the world at the pinnacle of a great team (like IRL) 

Edited by westy8chimp
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12 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Personally, in some part, i feel like it boils down to the limited attribute spread. 1-200 just doesnt feel big enough to differentiate the best in the world from the worst. 

Irl messi and ronaldo are beasts and in the game they do stand apart with the number of 20s they have. But does messi having 20 (200) and a conference striker having 10 (100) for say finishing and composure really tell the story?

Whilst it is debatable to which extent really models individual player traits and gaps in quality across a few levels, to me this  tells the story of a fundamental misconception too. Generally, oft even looking at simple stats when AI managed, such as the attempts those guys at all get -- it would be a miracle if they'd score as much as IRL. It doesn'T surprise me personally that whenever human players look to make "messi score like Messi", even in iterations years back, they make them the primary focus point of their attacks (getting most of the shots off). The AI traditionally has never done this to a similar extent. In parts it undoubtedly may be ME, but what the AI has also been lacking is a "make CR7 shine" PPM. :D

Edited by Svenc
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2 minutes ago, Svenc said:

But in essence you are saying it comes to luck... But why do barcelona and madrid consistently win, why do those players consistently hit great numbers? Thinking you are as good as messi but just a little unlucky is a miconception

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12 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

But in essence you are saying it comes to luck... But why do barcelona and madrid consistently win, why do those players consistently hit great numbers? Thinking you are as good as messi but just a little unlucky is a miconception

I'm not trying to say it comes down to luck (though there could be be an interesting paradox at work in any competitive sports given the comparably (!) equal quality of players at a level). HOwever, the margins are smaller than perceived. For instance, that CR7 averages a whopping 7 attempts per match (whilst the average forward's is but two), is also in no doubts also connected to superior positioning skills (and naturally superior supply from superior team mates). It's just that FM too doesn't seem to suscribe to the idea that if you are generally inferior, you can't hit a barn's door and vice versa. Which looks about tright, also when looking at more detailed analytics such as xG. Those are analytics trying to estimate how good a chance a chance really is. They seem to suggest that better players do outperform what they "are expected to score" given their chances long-term, but not by gigantic amounts.

In general, CR7 scores more because he shoots far more, mostly from good position too. If that doesn't come too pass on FM for the AI, how could they score significantly more given that any forward in the world (on FM too) misses more than he scores?

Edited by Svenc
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9 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Generally, oft even looking at simple stats when AI managed, such as the attempts those guys at all get -- it would be a miracle if they'd score as much as IRL

That is a great point. The ME doesn't translate the stats very well historically. FM19 has been the first time i've consistently managed to get 900+ passes using a possession tactic. So i guess it's a wider issue 

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1 minute ago, Svenc said:

In general, CR7 scores more because he shoots far more, mostly from good position too. If that doesn't come too pass on FM for the AI, how could they score significantly more given that any forward in the world misses more than he scores?

Does he not shoot more because; his team are better at controlling the ball... Its harder to get it off modric and kroos than felliani and herrera, right? Is marcelos crossing not more consistent and higher quality than a lg 2 left back? Is iscos visions and passing not far superior to mark noble? 

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8 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Does he not shoot more because; his team are better at controlling the ball... Its harder to get it off modric and kroos than felliani and herrera, right? Is marcelos crossing not more consistent and higher quality than a lg 2 left back? Is iscos visions and passing not far superior to mark noble? 

Absolutely. They're all still dealing with top class first level players and opposition though. Those still tend to be top level footballers, some of the best athletes of their generation, not completely useless pub team level of useless -- even though commentary may on occasion argue differently. It's all settled in finer margins (in-game mostly from my experience too). Therefore, if you want to answer why CR7 et all don't score more, you may have to first answer why they may not take as many attemts from central positions in the box. It's the same as of the top teams when managed by AI oft not scoring more goals in general.

Some of those answers will be AI related (given that human players don't generally struggle), some ME related -- and some may be even a bit research related. :) In short, it may be getting complicated. :D 

Edited by Svenc
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10 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Absolutely. They're all still dealing with top class first level players and opposition though. Those still tend to be top level footballers, some of the best athletes of their generation, not completely useless pub team level of useless -- even though commentary may on occasion argue differently. It's all settled in finer margins (in-game mostly from my experience too). Therefore, if you want to answer why CR7 et all don't score more, you may have to first answer why they may not take as many attemts from central positions in the box. It's the same as of the top teams when managed by AI oft not scoring more goals in general.

Some of those answers will be AI related (given that human players don't generally struggle), some ME related -- and some may be even a bit research related. :) In short, it may be getting complicated. :D 

I think we agree to some extent. Though you speak in riddles and hyperlinks so its often hard to tell :D

Im saying the reason he isnt getting the requisite attempts at goal, is due to rest of the team not being better (enough) than the oppositon. Let alone Ronaldo himself having attributes that truely merit how much better he is than a league 2 player, let alone a la liga player. 

If i can easily mark kroos and modric out the game by simply making a 3vs2 then doesnt matter how good ronaldo is, he isnt getting the ball. Increase attibute range so that modric and kross can have 1000 in the relevant attributes to recycling possession and a non league player can have 1... Will help the ME show real dominance for the master teams. Then we would see even an AI managed Ronaldo score 50+ a season. 

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11 minutes ago, andu1 said:

Guys are you running the leagues in full detail/comprehensive level? In my save Ronaldo has 9 goals in 11 matches and Messi 3 goals in 6 games but both are injured now.

I'm not. I haven't historically either. Will this have a big impact on how they perform? I thought this was purely for highlights?

Edited by corn_onthecurb
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I can't seem to replicate Salah's form from last season and I've tried him everywhere with every role in every setup imaginable thus far. 5 goals in 26 apps and keeps getting injured on a weekly basis :D

 

I guess last season really was just a fluke :brock:

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4 minutes ago, corn_onthecurb said:

I'm not. I haven't historically either. Will this have a big impact on how they perform? I thought this was purely for highlights?

Yes it has an impact. Someone from SI mentioned that without comprehensive mode, the result is based mostly on CA of the players. 

Edited by andu1
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2 minutes ago, andu1 said:

Yes it has an impact. Someone from SI mentioned that without comprehensive mode, the result is based mostly on CA of the players. 

All these years playing the game and I did not know that. I have enabled that for all my leagues. Thanks so much!

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Just now, corn_onthecurb said:

All these years playing the game and I did not know that. I have enabled that for all my leagues. Thanks so much!

A warning though, the processing will take slower with all those enabled. :D

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11 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

I think we agree to some extent. Though you speak in riddles and hyperlinks so its often hard to tell :D

Im saying the reason he isnt getting the requisite attempts at goal, is due to rest of the team not being better (enough) than the oppositon. Let alone Ronaldo himself having attributes that truely merit how much better he is than a league 2 player, let alone a la liga player. 

If i can easily mark kroos and modric out the game by simply making a 3vs2 then doesnt matter how good ronaldo is, he isnt getting the ball. Increase attibute range so that modric and kross can have 1000 in the relevant attributes to recycling possession and a non league player can have 1... Will help the ME show real dominance for the master teams. Then we would see even an AI managed Ronaldo score 50+ a season. 

Year after year myself & other FM’ers have shown it is possible to get high scoring numbers from Messi & the silly passing numbers seen from classic Guardiola tactics so the issue is much less about the ME or attribute model & more about getting AI managers to a level where the best can put together a tactic to get the most from their players.

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4 minutes ago, Barside said:

Year after year myself & other FM’ers have shown it is possible to get high scoring numbers from Messi & the silly passing numbers seen from classic Guardiola tactics so the issue is much less about the ME or attribute model & more about getting AI managers to a level where the best can put together a tactic to get the most from their players.

Is there anything we can tweak in the editor to enable the managers to better utilise these styles/players?

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35 minutes ago, corn_onthecurb said:

Is there anything we can tweak in the editor to enable the managers to better utilise these styles/players?

None that I or I believe others have been able to find, might be different for FM19.

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55 minutes ago, Barside said:

Year after year myself & other FM’ers have shown it is possible to get high scoring numbers from Messi & the silly passing numbers seen from classic Guardiola tactics so the issue is much less about the ME or attribute model & more about getting AI managers to a level where the best can put together a tactic to get the most from their players.

The "tiki-taka" presets seemed to be put into place to solve the former.

A "funnel most finishes to Messi/CR7/HarryharryKane PPM, er MPM, may one day solve the latter". May! :D

Edited by Svenc
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I’d be surprised if the tiki-taka preset has anywhere near the amount of TI’s & PI’s I had to use with a control mentality to best replicate the system or the same counter mentality that iirc WWFAN used to achieve the same.

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39 minutes ago, Barside said:

I’d be surprised if the tiki-taka preset has anywhere near the amount of TI’s & PI’s I had to use with a control mentality to best replicate the system or the same counter mentality that iirc WWFAN used to achieve the same.

The basic issues AI has aren't related to TIs or PIs (not previous anyways), imo. It's that they oft lack most basic of common sense. I don't think you'd need to have read a tactical bible to recognize how vital and important a pivot-like player in midfield is. At least one player controlling the centre and connecting those possible passing triangles -- whilst staying an outlet for easy ball retention in deeper areas of less pressure at any time. Similar, pushing all players upfield in possession rather than making them engage in the build-up was also a common occurance. I'd honestly never needed much PIs or TIs or anything to get some passing going. Waiting for the FM 19 demo tho. :D

I'm interested into how many shots the top teams collect in general. If it's too low, that may hint at a general issue with how AI managers manage matches at top teams in general. AI, all AI have always managed matches dynamically. They make changes during any match. What mostly triggers the changes they apply is goals being scored. In this case -- are they tactically taking the foot off the gas too early after having taken leads? However, defenses may be a bit tough to crack likewise (e.g. unlike on some prior iterations, "super dribblers" etc. may be far more easily taken out of the game rather than being near invincible :D ).

 

edit: Another thing to eye, and westy is correct of course, is the ME. There was (and is) lots of talk of ovehauled pressing for that "Gegenpressing" preset to work. On prior releases, it was ridiculously easy to keep the ball, in particular in those deeper areas. This was all due to the lack of pressure on ball carriers. According to some reports, the overhauled pressing could be quite a bit overpowered. That, is unlike on previous releases (never hugely changed including FM 17 btw), where it was easy to keep the ball for endless sequences, like this:
 



It could be now a bit too hard to keep the ball.  If all SI coded was a "tiki-taka make Messi/CR7 shine simulation", they'd have it no doubts hella easier though! :D Unfortunately, the poor lads try to incorporate all shades of football, as Burnley, Atletico, Leicester or Leipzig et all simply don't have a CR7, nor do they pass it much about; and that's where things may be getting complicated.

Edited by Svenc
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1 hour ago, Barside said:

Year after year myself & other FM’ers have shown it is possible to get high scoring numbers from Messi & the silly passing numbers seen from classic Guardiola tactics so the issue is much less about the ME or attribute model & more about getting AI managers to a level where the best can put together a tactic to get the most from their players.

True but i can also get the same numbers, or better from average players. Human will always have that ability... I can get a pure pace striker like werner scoring 50 a lot easier than i could messi. And i can easily get average joes like ben yedder and lapadulla to score a goal a game.

Messi and a few other elite players  need to be a class above everyone else... Then the next band i. E. World class players need to be a long way ahead of other top league team players who have to be a lot better than average league 2 players who have to be a different class to average non league players... 

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You think Messi has lots of PIs and TIs in real life? And a heavy tactical focus to ‘get the best from him’?

Of course he doesn’t! He’s Messi. Put him behind a striker, or anywhere, and he’ll do the rest. 

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10 minutes ago, DP said:

He’s Messi. Put him behind a striker, or anywhere, and he’ll do the rest. 

It's a good thing that some Football Managers aren't actual managers. :D But maybe that's how things would work in real life, who knows. CR7 arrives and demands all moves to be funneled towards him so that he has the absolutely lions share of good opportunity -- or else he's going to cry like that spoiled kid, presto. Mind, judging from media reports about his supposedly ego personality, that may actually be the case (and maybe it's even a part of his contract that any new and old team mate make the space for his and play all moves to his). Things don't work that way in FM either way, and I couldn't imagine the outcry if they would. :D

Edited by Svenc
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