Brexit and FM17

[Lord Rowell 154]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/10/18/brexit-is-simulated-in-football-manager-2017-and-its-going-to-ma/

 

I thought this topic deserved a thread of its own, so here it is.

 

This, IMHO, is absolutely brilliant. I didn't see this coming at all tbh. SI have been really, really brave here. It's a risk in terms of getting / predicting the possible different impacts of Brexit, though I'm sure that's been simulated lots of times in house. The possibility of Scottish secession from the UK is really going to cause some controversy.

 

The timing of this announcement is interesting, right on the day of the Beta release. I'm wondering, had SI announced sooner, would they have had to face down criticism & hostility from the less-pleasant members of the Brexit camp? They still will of course, but the genie is pretty much out of the bottle now.

 

This is really going to make some people think, who perhaps hadn't given thought before, the consequences of what we've done as a nation. I wish this had been in FM16 before the referendum but hindsight is a great thing - at the time most people believed the UK would vote to Remain.

There's been lots of talk about the level of change from game to game. Incremental / step change to large / sea change. This is sea change, because for the first time, political events are going to shape the game experience in a major way.

Hats off to SI for this. For me, this is worth the pre-order alone.

 

A question from me - will the game, if "hard Brexit" occurs in the FM virtual world, simulate a permanent devaluation of £sterling, with consequences that foreign (if you're managing in UK) players become more expensive, and that UK players become cheaper / more attractive to foreign clubs?

 

Finally a more open-question, what else do people think the Brexit impact will simulate in FM17, and indeed what would you like to see?

[treble_yell_:-) 271]

I really don't like it , it adds a huge random feature that will completely shape a save and offers the player no control or influence on the outcome. The exit is at least 2.5 years away , I personally think it should have probably been left out sat this time or at least have been a toggle.

There are plenty of things coming down the pipe that is going to shake up the game (World Cup and CL reform) that are equally as unclear at this time , we'd probably all be a little confused if SI started guessing at how these would turn out and threw in random outcomes , so to add in something that will have a huge impact in the game just seems.....off.

 

[Welshace 617]

 Will allow this to stay open for now for as long as it doesn't descend into the usual real world politics rubbish...

 

For me, it needs to be in the game as it will potentially massively effect UK football , and the only non controversial way of doing it, is to implement all outcomes (as far as is possible to predict) in a random fashion, therefore negating any controversy over SI leaning one way or another.

 

[hm86 29]

I think it should have been an option/preference you can change as opposed to being forced. Until it does actually impact football, as mentioned above possibly 2-3 years away so should be introduced then. 

[Welshace 617]

1 minute ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

I really don't like it , it adds a huge random feature that will completely shape a save and offers the player no control or influence on the outcome. The exit is at least 2.5 years away , I personally think it should have probably been left out sat this time or at least have been a toggle.

There are plenty of things coming down the pipe that is going to shake up the game (World Cup and CL reform) that are equally as unclear at this time , we'd probably all be a little confused if SI started guessing at how these would turn out and threw in random outcomes , so to add in something that will have a huge impact in the game just seems.....off.

 

They already did ... The whole Qatar thing was already there in fm126 no?

[gunner86 803]

I'm interested to see how it plays out across different saves actually

They've clearly spent a lot of time researching several different possibilities and it will hopefully add a level of realism

[Welshace 617]

BTW

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a method of editing or changing it though... but suffice to say, that's merely a guess

[treble_yell_:-) 271]

Just now, Welshace said:

They already did ... The whole Qatar thing was already there in fm126 no?

Wasn't that to a workaround to save having to code a Winter World Cup ?

I was meaning the proposed 48 team WC or the top 4 nations getting 4 teams direct to the group stages in the CL. All talk that has been proposed by the Football authorities but (rightly) something FM won't touch until it's been ratified.

[Maaka 102]

Well done by SI to not only include Brexit, but to simulate a number of different possible outcomes as well

[Crispypaul 988]

1 minute ago, Welshace said:

BTW

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a method of editing or changing it though... but suffice to say, that's merely a guess

You could probably reload too if you were that way inclined.

[Maaka 102]

26 minutes ago, martplfc1 said:

https://twitter.com/milessi/status/788326200565440512

 

Deep breath lads!!

 

[Crispypaul 988]

1 minute ago, CFuller said:

I'm really looking forward to possibly managing in a Premier League where British players are in the majority again. That should be a very exciting challenge.

I can't imagine it will make much difference for elite level senior players, as they'll be highly compensated regardless therefore a work permit should be a matter of course.

What it could mean is a reduction in perhaps the more "journeyman" type of player, lower down the leagues; or hoovering up of young players from elsewhere in the EU.  Hard to say this would improve British football or make it worse, really (IRL or FM!)

[Crispypaul 988]

Ignore

[CFuller 1,703]

Sports Interactive really have thought about all of the possible scenarios for Brexit/Scoxit, haven't they?

My earlier post got deleted. Is this post acceptable, mods?

[Cougar2010 466]

5 minutes ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

I really don't like it , it adds a huge random feature that will completely shape a save and offers the player no control or influence on the outcome. The exit is at least 2.5 years away , I personally think it should have probably been left out sat this time or at least have been a toggle.

There are plenty of things coming down the pipe that is going to shake up the game (World Cup and CL reform) that are equally as unclear at this time , we'd probably all be a little confused if SI started guessing at how these would turn out and threw in random outcomes , so to add in something that will have a huge impact in the game just seems.....off.

 

Why is the randomness a problem?

FM has a massive amount of randomness already in it from how players develop to what happens on the pitch.

Having something game changing in is a step in the right direction in my opinion.  Maybe its a way to test the water but once Brexit is finalised in the real world I hope SI continue to look at ways game changing scenarios can be added to FM to make saves more unique and give them individuality.

In terms of FM17 it says in the article that it could happen at anytime from 2-10 years into a save, there are also different Brexit options from no change to hard Brexit + knock effects for Scotland etc.  On top of that the number of foreigners that you could be restricted to if you get that option is anywhere from 4-17.

Should it have been a toggle? I can see an argument for but it might have been difficult to include given the various possible outcomes.  I'm sure some users won't like it but for many of us it adds something extra to the gameworld.

[Welshace 617]

Just now, Welshace said:

As explained @CFuller... all good as long as personal political beliefs are kept away from FM related forums.. there are off topic politics threads in the off topic forums for that

 

[Black and Yellow 33]

I think that's excellent. Adds another dimension to the challenge.

[ChelseaSince86 92]

Impressed.  Be interesting to see how this plays out in game

[hm86 29]

5 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

In terms of FM17 it says in the article that it could happen at anytime from 2-10 years into a save, there are also different Brexit options from no change to hard Brexit + knock effects for Scotland etc.  On top of that the number of foreigners that you could be restricted to if you get that option is anywhere from 4-17.

Apologies I skimmed through the article and missed this part, this changes my mind, I think its good now haha.

[sufcdan 9]

I like it  its gonna happen in real life at some point anyways

Im just hoping in my game i get the soft exit so it doesnt affect my transfers too much

[Maaka 102]

EVERYTHING that happens in-game has a randomness attached to it. Injuries? Can happen anytime, to anyone, at a random rate (some are more susceptible than others). Sackings? Also related to randomness. You're on the brink, a bad result due to a subsitution necessitated by a "random" injury leads to an own goal by the sub, you lose, and you're out of work. And it goes on and on. 

So why is it so bad with randomness in this case?

[Warhawk 95]

14 minutes ago, Crispypaul said:

You could probably reload too if you were that way inclined.

Apparently, according to Miles, save & reload doesn't work and there's no way to edit it.

This is likely to end up ruining my experience if I get 5 years into my save and get a hard brexit.

[BayernMB 16]

I think it complicates matters too much ... there was a print screen of a possible outcome that UK leaves the EU, but Scotland leaves the UK and stays in EU - I believe that is not a viable option because Scotland would have to reapply for EU membership. I'm afraid we will have many discussions here because of angry players who won't like their Brexit scenario.

[Maaka 102]

Just now, Warhawk said:

This is likely to end up ruining my experience if I get 5 years into my save and get a hard brexit.

Why not just adapt to the changed reality?

[Walshieboy750 29]

2 minutes ago, Warhawk said:

Apparently, according to Miles, save & reload doesn't work and there's no way to edit it.

This is likely to end up ruining my experience if I get 5 years into my save and get a hard brexit.

Could you imagine a real manager coming out and saying 'thanks for ruining my experience lads' after Brexit affects football in a way that disadvantages his current squad?

[Warhawk 95]

1 minute ago, Walshieboy750 said:

Could you imagine a real manager coming out and saying 'thanks for ruining my experience lads' after Brexit affects football in a way that disadvantages his current squad?

I'm not a real manager, I'm a dude playing a video game.

[Welshace 617]

1 minute ago, Warhawk said:

I'm not a real manager, I'm a dude playing a video game.

Unfortunately, you are playing a video game that's attempting to be the most accurate simulation of real world football.. which included brexit.

[Warhawk 95]

Just now, Welshace said:

Unfortunately, you are playing a video game that's attempting to be the most accurate simulation of real world football.. which included brexit.

Sure, but you can save & reload for other things, and make any edits you want for anything else.  I can give Aruba the best youth rating in the world if I want, for example.  Why should I be specifically prevented from changing this?

[GSevensM75 67]

26 minutes ago, gunner86 said:

I'm interested to see how it plays out across different saves actually

They've clearly spent a lot of time researching several different possibilities and it will hopefully add a level of realism

They're football fans, not economists.  Come to think of it though the economists rarely seem to get anything right anyway so maybe SI will be more realistic in their predictions!

[warlock 890]

Hasn't been discussed yet, but presumably, SI have also built in the potential reciprocal consequences in the EU? English players needing work permits to play in France, Germany, etc. 

[stevemc 607]

If were trying to attain real world football, will the Qatar 2022 World Cup be scheduled for Winter this time?

[Welshace 617]

Just now, Warhawk said:

Sure, but you can save & reload for other things, and make any edits you want for anything else.  I can give Aruba the best youth rating in the world if I want, for example.  Why should I be specifically prevented from changing this?

I suspect, if Miles has said save and reloading won't change things, it will be more that the outcome has been decided due to a number of factors leading up to the point where it happens so saving and reloading will merely bring the same outcome (1+1 will always make 2 type of deal) ...

Any number of things are hard coded into the game for a number of reasons.. 

[callamity 85]

Do we get to vote?

 

Is there a scenario where trump gets elected? 

 

This change brings both excitement and confusion as I hate politics in real life especially British politics. But to be handed a card where I have to alter my style of squad building intrigues me. 

Could be good or bad thing let's see. 

[Lord Rowell 154]

4 minutes ago, Warhawk said:

Sure, but you can save & reload for other things, and make any edits you want for anything else.  I can give Aruba the best youth rating in the world if I want, for example.  Why should I be specifically prevented from changing this?

Because this is striving to be a real-world football simulation, not an editable sandbox.

Sometimes you have to face the world you're in. A problem is that too many people want to hide away in their virtual, customisable worlds. Again, I think this is really brave and socially responsible of SI in taking a lead and confronting reality.

[Leftism 5]

Presumably it'll just be a file in the /db directory so players can have a choice to "opt out" of this part of the simulation?

[Warhawk 95]

1 minute ago, Lord Rowell said:

Because this is striving to be a real-world football simulation, not an editable sandbox.

Sometimes you have to face the world you're in. A problem is that too many people want to hide away in their virtual, customisable worlds. Again, I think this is really brave and socially responsible of SI in taking a lead and confronting reality.

OK.  Everything else is editable.  Assuming the database editor is the same you could remove France from the EU if you want to.  If there's not a way to do a similar edit for Brexit, it would be bizarre.  Hopefully there will be.

[callamity 85]

Are UK Brexit teams being removed from European competition? 

[treble_yell_:-) 271]

1 minute ago, Warhawk said:

OK.  Everything else is editable.  Assuming the database editor is the same you could remove France from the EU if you want to.  If there's not a way to do a similar edit for Brexit, it would be bizarre.  Hopefully there will be.

Not according to Miles on Twitter

[herne79 4,508]

I think this is a great new addition, and will present us with a new challenge.

Brexit is going to happen in some form, we don't yet know what that form will take, so the fact that SI have built in various options to simulate what might happen is very welcome.

The new challenge could start from day one - should I ramp up my youth facilities now and really focus efforts there in case of Hard Brexit?  Should I just wing it and hope it'll be soft?  Should I just think screw it I'm off to manage in Brazil?  And then Brexit day arrives and I finally get to see if I'm prepared or not...

Adds a great new dimension .

[enigmatic 3,415]

10 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

Why is the randomness a problem?

FM has a massive amount of randomness already in it from how players develop to what happens on the pitch.

Having something game changing in is a step in the right direction in my opinion.  Maybe its a way to test the water but once Brexit is finalised in the real world I hope SI continue to look at ways game changing scenarios can be added to FM to make saves more unique and give them individuality.

In terms of FM17 it says in the article that it could happen at anytime from 2-10 years into a save, there are also different Brexit options from no change to hard Brexit + knock effects for Scotland etc.  On top of that the number of foreigners that you could be restricted to if you get that option is anywhere from 4-17.

Should it have been a toggle? I can see an argument for but it might have been difficult to include given the various possible outcomes.  I'm sure some users won't like it but for many of us it adds something extra to the gameworld.

There's a bit of a difference between a player randomly getting injured the day before the cup final or even a club randomly and rarely getting taken over by an activist chairman and the entire transfer market in every aspect of the game behaving completely differently.

Not least the fact that some people probably particularly want to play a game in which they adjust for a scenario of managing mostly British teams in the Premiership

Hence the sense of having checkboxes to (i) turn off options which users don't want because they've been ruled out IRL by the time they start the game or are widely considered to be badly handled by the AI or just plain don't like or (ii) specify a particular option because they've always wanted to experience the challenge of winning an all-British Premiership on a tight budget.

[Per Annum 327]

Just now, callamity said:

Are UK Brexit teams being removed from European competition? 

Just like all the other Non-Eu teams in UEFA?

[Maaka 102]

1 minute ago, callamity said:

Are UK Brexit teams being removed from European competition? 

Why should they?

[Cougar2010 466]

5 minutes ago, GSevensM75 said:

That's a terrible response.  It's a video game.  Not a simulation.  It's nowhere near a simulation.  Yes it may have some front end bells and whistles that gives it that illusion but what I've learned from FM over the years is that the more you actually know about football, e.g. if you actually work in the game, the more you actually struggle initially with FM.  Because you try and adopt what you know from the real world and it doesn't work.  Once you realise that and change your thinking to finding ways to exploit the game instead (which is also what happens in real football of course) then you have fun.  But let's not pretend that FM is anything like realistic.   And nor do we want it to be too realistic otherwise people wouldn't be able to take a team from the Conference and have them win the Champion's League in under a decade.  The game would be pretty boring if it was mainly the same three or four teams that won the league most times.

Thats just not true at all I'm afraid, just because you struggle to adapt doesn't mean others do.

We know from some of your recent responses in other threads that you prefer to ignore real world statistics in favour of your own opinion.

In terms of taking a team from Conference to Champions League winners in 10 years simply doesn't happen without cheating in some way and that has been the case for a number of FM versions.

[Warhawk 95]

Just now, treble_yell_:-) said:

Not according to Miles on Twitter

So then why is Brexit different than literally everything else in the game?

[santy001 989]

Some will feel uneasy about it, but its a great feature. I can fully appreciate why some won't like it, but equally there are those who dislike when their best player decides he wants to leave, there are those who dislike when they lose the dressing room. 

SI certainly feel its going to be a huge element to football (especially English football) going forward. But the truth is if you play in any of Europes other major leagues this becomes a much lesser noticeable thing and compared to the challenges of managing in those leagues its just something happening the background you don't need to pay too much attention to. It's only a huge deal if you're going to be managing in England. 

[stevemc 607]

Its a brave decision, and fair play for adding it to the game. Brexit is going to happen, that's a fact, but given no-one really knows how Brexit is going to happen (and its ripple effects within sport), I probably would have made this a toggle on/off option for this year.

[Cougar2010 466]

2 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

There's a bit of a difference between a player randomly getting injured the day before the cup final or even a club randomly and rarely getting taken over by an activist chairman and the entire transfer market in every aspect of the game behaving completely differently.

Not least the fact that some people probably particularly want to play a game in which they adjust for a scenario of managing mostly British teams in the Premiership

Those type of users also tend to be the ones that only play a save for 2/3 seasons.  In that respect most of them won't even see the effects of Brexit during a save.

 

2 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Hence the sense of having checkboxes to (i) turn off options which users don't want because they've been ruled out IRL by the time they start the game or are widely considered to be badly handled by the AI or just plain don't like or (ii) specify a particular option because they've always wanted to experience the challenge of winning an all-British Premiership on a tight budget.

Whilst we don't know how it works technically yet I suspect Leftism might be closer to the mark above and it might be something similar to removing the German restrictions but thats only a guess.

[callamity 85]

4 minutes ago, Maaka said:

Why should they?

I don't think they should. I don't know how it works so asked

[Maaka 102]

12 minutes ago, warlock said:

Hasn't been discussed yet, but presumably, SI have also built in the potential reciprocal consequences in the EU? English players needing work permits to play in France, Germany, etc. 

This. It's equally important to have the "other side" simulated as well. I suppose they'll be "mirrored" by the outcome in each save game, so that UK players would need wp's where other non-EU players have to and so on.

[GSevensM75 67]

3 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

Thats just not true at all I'm afraid, just because you struggle to adapt doesn't mean others do.

We know from some of your recent responses in other threads that you prefer to ignore real world statistics in favour of your own opinion.

In terms of taking a team from Conference to Champions League winners in 10 years simply doesn't happen without cheating in some way and that has been the case for a number of FM versions.

I don't struggle to adapt.  I find the game ridiculously easy most of the time.  You just have to find the sweet spot and go on a winning run.  Morale does the rest.

And I don't cheat, I don't re-load etc.  And I've taken teams from the Conference to Champion League winners.  It's not as easy as it used to be because you can't just have one formation or style all the way through, but it's not exactly hard to do either.