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Antonio Conte's tactical masterclass


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Hi there!

Anybody who's up for this and try to create Conte's 3-5-2 tactic "Italian style" and probably Chelsea's style later as well.

I've tried the 3-5-2 (5-1-2-2) with and 3-5-2 without wing backs and I must say it's hard to make anything out of it.

So I need some help from you guys to create a tactic or if anyone have one to use as a template.

The team to build around is Italy or Chelsea.

Cheers ;)

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I ran a few preliminary test matches to get a feeling of it using an average team (Atalanta) vs. a better-yet-not-elite one (Inter). I just kept reiterating the same match.

It was solid but created very, very few chances.

We were ridiculously exposed to marauding opposing fullbacks, but couldn't really do much about it (could have either left 3 vs 3 at the back or forced one of the front two to man mark, but felt neither was acceptable) - still, the sheer number of bodies in the middle meant we'd defend successfully most of the crosses.

Lineup was:

Counter / Structured, no further instructions

GKd (roll out to BPd) *

BPd / CDc / CDd

WBa (stay wider) / DMs / WBa (stay wider) **

MCs / MCs (get further forward) ***

SSa ****

TMs

*: Buffon was actually swiping and launching long but I wanted to feed the creator and didn't feel like the low block required a SKd

**: if using fluid I would have gone WMs, but with structured I preferred WBa. Added stay wider to, duh, add width

***: added get further forward to one of them to get some more penetration, still not enough though. Maybe try BBs with get further forward?

****: the split could have been a classic DLFs / AFa but I wanted the spearhead to get the ball and lay it to the surging SSa and MCs

Needs lots of work to be used competitively, still it's a solid albeit unspectacular base.

EDIT: a double TMs front pivot (is that even a thing) could be interesting - and quite close to the way they played -, with both MCs making runs. Dunno how viable though.

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ZUUgAZT.png

DC17bSM.png

Conte did a number on Belgium and the tactic that he plays for the national team isn't really anything new to what we see when he coached Juve.

- Counter-attacking

- Positional Play (De Rossi would drop back to the defense and help form a 4-man defense when Italy was in possession. Barzagli and Cheillini would move wide. Both Wingbacks would stay wide during the buildup and push up high but would "sit in" during the final third.)

- Narrow and compact defense with zonal marking.

- Limited counterpressing when ball is lost (eg. take out a player high up the field before a counter can begin

Saying that, I think it is impossible to get the wingbacks to behave like they did in that game and I am not gonna bother with Positional Play. Other keypoints are very easy to emulate

Here is the shape I got

VK98owJ.png

A 5-1-2-1-1 will help us get enough men back to soak up pressure and hit teams on the break. In attack, it becomes a 3-5-2.

VjTtqLZ.png

No debate about this. Italy were playing on the counter narrow and compact. When they were in possession, they were playing a slow paced possession game.

FgAkdxv.png

As Ozil has already demonstrated, Very Fluid allows the team to be more compact but slightly expressive. We can offset the latter with a TI, tho.

TIs

xrqrmHT.png

Pass Into Space - In the game, the players were not afraid to nick in a through ball.

Work Ball Into Ball - They were not many crosses or long shots by Italy. Conte usually does this to allow the wingbacks to "sit in" in the final third and allow patient play

Whipped (or Low) Crosses - When crosses were made, they were usually whipped in.

Close Down More/Get Stuck In/Tighter Marking - As I said before, Italy played a limited gegenpressing game that was not to the extent of Leicester but were used just to hack a player down high up the field to prevent a counter.

Be More Disciplined - This will be used to offset the other effects of playing very fluid. Conte is also a disciplined coach.

PIs

vgrQqFC.png

Just a normal goalkeeping role for Old Man Buffon. He either has the freedom to kick the ball away or pass it to a CB when in a goal kick.

DD4ISQt.png

The Vice-Pirlo is Bonucci. While all three are also exceptional on the ball, Bonucci is often called the vice-Pirlo due to his similarities in his technical ability with the Italian vet.

C3FM3jd.png x 2

You have two stoppers that usually steps up beyond their line and cuts out attacks before it gets to their own box. They also are exceptional in their ball-playing skills

BXuHqDR.png

De Rossi's role is an easy one as he usually sits back in defense and dictates the tempo. Moreover, he is not afraid to nick an occasional through ball.

ixupocx.png

Candreva usually plays as a Right inverted winger at Lazio. That day against Belgium, he was played as an Inverted Wingback.

kGIt68j.png

Darmain was a normal wingback. Going forward, he's meh but hes a great defender when he is defending.

4utgJnF.png

The Vidal role was given to Marco Parolo in the game against Belgium. Vidal is a player who is a great ball-winner but is not bad going forward.

zTV5qef.png

The Central Winger Position has once again appeared on our radar. Strikerless uses a CW in his tactic which is just a CM (a) w/ modified PIs. I take pleasure in stealing that :D

4WLcwYz.png

Eder/Insigne are usually wingers at their clubs but they have been Griezmann-ed at national level. This means that they have taken a role as a false 10.

y3veiL8.png

Pelle is a target man but I would hate for my team to play through him so I opt for the DLF role.

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Fidelity aside, aren't you clogging the center too much with the inverted wingback?

When I was testing this I really saw an improvement when adding stay wider to the wingbacks, it forced opposing fullbacks out wide and made the midfield runners harder to pick up

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I watched that game in detail, and i would not say that Candreva was in any way playing inverted. Quite the opposite, he gave Italy real width in midfield. At times he cut inside in the final third, which was often because he was as advanced as any player on the park by then. He also did not defend as deep as Darmian at all. Italy used a defensive system similar to how Fiorentina played this season. One wingback (Darmian) dropped in, the rest of the defence shuffled across and it became a back 4. Barzagli often ended up in the RB Slot, nominally (Belgium played with zero width, so he was less pronounced than a normal FB defending).

I am not sure how easily you can make it work in FM, but you would really want to have Darmian and Candreva playing in different "slots". Either LB / RWB or more likely LWB / RM.

I also think you are somewhat off on the strikers. They played very much as a pair and not a false 10. Watching the game my thought at times was "they are playing with 2 targetmen, thats unusual". Italy fissed a lot of early balls into the head and chest of both strikers. Eder is far less physically imposing that Pelle but they both played in very similar ways. For me, there is no doubt this was a true 2 striker tactic from Conte (as it nearly always is). I have not watched as much Italian football this season as i have in the past, but i have rarely seen Eder play as a winger of any kind. Particularly since the move to Inter, he has played either up front with Icardi in a 2, or central with the likes of Perisic and Ljajic wide. I have seen him roam a bit more with Inter than with Italy, but still very much playing as the striker. Insigne is very much a winger / False 10 / AMC, but he didnt play a single minute, so not sure thats overly relevant. Infact when Conte did make a change up top, it was Immobile, another "proper" striker.

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@Jambo98, yes, the double target man I thought of as well. It just seems very static though when you play it in FM - someone more experienced will figure out how to make it work.

The defensive part is what I was referring to when I said that we were exposed to marauding fullbacks. If I set my left WB to pick up their offensive right FB (had to give man marking instructions or he wouldn't), as the defence doesn't slide across to make a back 4, I was conceding acres to their inside forward on the same side, and I'm not really comfortable with stoppers. Again, tricky to balance.

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Counter

Very Fluid

Be More Disciplined

Play Out of Defence

.............GK

......CD - BPD - CD

...............................IWB S

WMS - CMS CMD CMS

...........AF - DLF

With some PIs for Candreva and maybe the CMs. Simple as that.

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In FM-terms the formation would probably be a 5-3-2 with wingbacks. I see the formation in FM as the defensive shape when your team is defending in their on half. When Belgium attacked the right flank of italy, Candreva stepped up forming a 4-4-2 as Darmian would drop deep forming a back 4. The same would happen when Belgium attacked the other flank. If anyone here have read THOGs "Lines and Diamonds", the 5-3-2 WB in FM does just that.

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Has anyone considered or tried this for the defence;

FB/d----BPD/c----CD/d----CWB/a

CWB-a

Ask the FB/d to Sit Narrow and Cut Inside With Ball. Ask the GK to distribute to the BPD.

I created this idea based on Paulo Sousa but can also fit the Conte and Juventus model.

Barzagli is the FB, Bonucci is the BPD and Chiellini the CB with Candreva the right sided (advanced) CWB and Darmian the (deeper) left sided CWB.

The CWB/a's bomb forward and the defence, once familiar with it, shift over to cover the gap, making a central back 3 with the FB/d slight advanced to form a triangle/angled passing lane to receive from the BPD. The FB/s also supports the "Candreva CWB"

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Has anyone considered or tried this for the defence;

FB/d----BPD/c----CD/d----CWB/a

CWB-a

Ask the FB/d to Sit Narrow and Cut Inside With Ball. Ask the GK to distribute to the BPD.

I created this idea based on Paulo Sousa but can also fit the Conte and Juventus model.

Barzagli is the FB, Bonucci is the BPD and Chiellini the CB with Candrea the right sided (advanced) CWB and Darmian the (deeper) left sided CWB.

The CWB/a's bomb forward and the defence, once familiar with it, shift over to cover the gap, making a central back 3 with the FB/d slight advanced to form a triangle/angled passing lane to receive from the BPD. The FB/s also supports the "Candreva CWB"

I think thats an en excellent interpretation and way of creating the right shape in defence and attack. It very much creates a back 3 / back 4 combo, although the back 3 do tend to sit just a little "offset" even in attack, but not enough for it to be an issue.

If i were trying to recreate Italy, i would use exactly that back 5 setup. As you say, it is similar to Fiorentina (early season anyway, later they evolved to more of a Bayern type, where the outer DCs play like Alaba and bomb forward).

Infront of the defense it gets interesting. De Rossi's role is a little hard to define, if for no other reason than he was probably the one Italy player who had a relatively poor game. He was barely involved, made only 2 tackles and no interceptions, and was not exactly the guy driving the play either (that was Bonucci most of the time). He was certainly in the DM strata, but based on that performance was neither a ball winner nor a playmaker. I would probably opt for BWM for Parolo, he was much more fiesty in winning the ball back, in common with how he plays at club level. Giaccherini did his share of defending but it showed that he is less of a natural in that art than Parolo, and he also got further forward.

All in all, i ended up with this in my attempt to recreate the shape in defence and attack:

ZXtXU2d.jpg

The midfield offset reflects that Giaccherini more often drifted left, than Parolo did right (balance the fact that Candreva is far more attacking than Darmian. The forward roles i am very unsure on. If you watched how Italy defended, there were shades of Athletico at times. The entire 11 were inside their own half often, the forwards dropping very deep when out of possession. I was torn between DLF, even F9 (purely for positional purposes, neither strikers are exactly messi!) or even puting them in the AM slots with an attack duty. I actually think the latter would be more accurate, but might play a game with this shape first.

Thats just the basic shape, before considering instructions, of course, but i think its probably close.

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Jambo - I agree with you on your setup in advance of my back 5 setup. Possibly De Rossi coulda/shoulda/woulda been an Anchorman? For now DM/d seems to fit. Its a shame the Central Winger from FM14 cannot be properly recreated as that would be perfect for Giaccherini (runs wide with ball)

Dont forget to set the FB/d to Sit Narrow and Cut Inside.

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Jambo - I agree with you on your setup in advance of my back 5 set up. Possibly De Rossi coulda/should/woulda been an Anchorman? For now DM/d seems to fit. Its a shame the Central Winger from FM14.15 cannot be properly recreated as that would be perfect for Giaccherini.

Dont forget to set the FB/d to Sit Narrow and Cut Inside.

Yes Anchor is possible. Its quite difficult as Conte does not generally play that type of system. If you look at the build up games, it was totally different personel / roles. Darmian was in the back 3, Giaccherini played LWB at times, Candreva played further forward with Florenzi in behind. The centre midfield was varied, but generally not including an anchor as such. When they got destroyed by Germany with Motta an Montelivio as the CM's it seems like something clicked for Conte and he realised he cant get away with so little energy in the middle.

To be fair, its also likely that Italy would not line up in the same midfield setup if they had their 2 best CMs available (Marchesio and Verrati).

I did add those PI as you say to the RB.

Couple of early shots of how it plays out:

defending with a 4

r4JtU52.jpg

Attacking with a 3 at the back

H8gUjqx.jpg

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442 diamond in defence (kind of) and 3142(352) in attack. Perfect.

Possibly if Verratti & Marchisio are around it could be a flat 3 in midfield with the central man as CM/d.

Barzagli is still wider there than he will be once its trained fully but you can see he is facing inside and positioned well to support Candreva & Bonucci defensively in case of a turnover.

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http://spielverlagerung.com/2016/06/14/belgium-italy-02/

Here's an article talking about the game

Again, the defensive structure works, it just leads to needing more thought on the attacking trio of Eder, Pelle and Giaccherini. I'm not sure it possible to 100% accurately recreate that in FM at present but i think Jambo is very, very close. Maybe the Giaccherini role could be a standard CM/a?

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442 diamond in defence (kind of) and 3142(352) in attack. Perfect.

Possibly if Verratti & Marchisio are around it could be a flat 3 in midfield with the central man as CM/d.

Barzagli is still wider there than he will be once its trained fully but you can see he is facing inside and positioned well to support Candreva & Bonucci defensively in case of a turnover.

Yeah the shape looks good, although perhaps the offset in midfield is not quite right, it does leave a big gap and ends up with Parolo and Giaccherini close together (as you say, if i could add "run wide with the ball" to Giaccherini it would be perfect).

I actually "cheated" for the purpose of this mess around. I set the tactical familiarity to max right away (pretty much impossible to get it above awkward at international level i find). Barzagli does drift a little more right than in real life but not so much it makes a difference.

I think with the full squad, Italy could have had Veratti as a Regista, Marchesio as the ultimate B2B (one of the best in the world at that) and possibly retained Parolo as a bit of a hybrid BWM / B2B alongside. The interesting thing about that is that whilst Veratti for De Rossi you would think improves any team, and certainly adds creativity, would it upset the overall balance?

Conte has a philosophy of "attack with 5, defend with 5" in terms of his players. In the system against Belguim, i would split it as:

Defend

Barzagli

Bonucci

Chiellini

Darmian

De Rossi

Attack

Parolo

Giaccherini

Candreva

Eder

Pelle

Now Marchesio for Giaccherini is a straight swap, but if you add Verratti for De Rossi, do you create an imbalance? You would not put down Verratti as a defensive player in the same way as De Rossi. Of course Conte had Pirlo at Juve, very similar in terms of playing deep but not in any way a defender. At times he balanced that by having moderately less adventurous wingbacks, so the RWB becomes more part of the "defend 5" and the DM becomes more of the "attack 4".

We will never know of course! Will be interesting to see as the tournament goes on whether Conte sticks to the same system, or if he tries to find a way to work in Insigne, who is there best attacking player IMO.

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I don't know why everyone is so set on Darmian on playing as an IWB-S. He has a capable left foot as indicated when he played on the left at Palermo. Personally I would set up the tactic as:

GK-D

CD-D BPD-D CD-D

W-A DM-D WB-S

CM-D BBM-S

DF-S TM-S

Mentality: Standard

Shape: Very Fluid

Instructions: Push higher up, work ball into box, Be more disciplined, pass into space.

Player Instructions:

BBM-S: Move into channels

DF-S: Move into channels

I'm a little conflicted on the shape, because I feel like playing on very fluid leads to some crazy stuff happening.

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Again, the defensive structure works, it just leads to needing more thought on the attacking trio of Eder, Pelle and Giaccherini. I'm not sure it possible to 100% accurately recreate that in FM at present but i think Jambo is very, very close. Maybe the Giaccherini role could be a standard CM/a?

I might be off on this, and would need to look back on the game, but i dont think Giaccherini was overly attacking. He shuttled back a fair bit, in line with Conte's absolutely love of B2B players. I think CM(a) is probably too attacking to represent him, but i think adding "get further forward" as PI to the B2B would be a fair compromise?

Yes the strikers were defo not right in that first attempt. I was trying to recreate how deep the came when Italy defended, but F9 also didnt keep up enough with aggressive wide attacks by Candreva. I did think of DF, but i am not sure that Eder and Pelle did as much pressing. As i say, the real parallel for me with the strikers was Athletico - you often see their strikers very deep when they defend, but they still get forward very quickly. I will need to have a think.

I don't know why everyone is so set on Darmian on playing as an IWB-S. He has a capable left foot as indicated when he played on the left at Palermo. Personally I would set up the tactic as:

GK-D

CD-D BPD-D CD-D

W-A DM-D WB-S

CM-D BBM-S

DF-S TM-S

Mentality: Standard

Shape: Very Fluid

Instructions: Push higher up, work ball into box, Be more disciplined, pass into space.

Player Instructions:

BBM-S: Move into channels

DF-S: Move into channels

I'm a little conflicted on the shape, because I feel like playing on very fluid leads to some crazy stuff happening.

I agree, he is not an IWB at all (people are also very confused by that role - It is not simply meant to represent a wingback playing on his wrong side, its meant to re-create a very specific type of position, which was mainly operated by Alaba and Lahm at Bayern a year or two back. A FB who moves deliberately into DM / CM when in possession. It doesnt work properly on FM yet, but thats what the role is intented to be. Darmian is in no way that type of player).

The one thing your shape would not do, i suspect, is create the back 3 / 4 hybrid? Interesting choices on the strikers. My second attempt is actually TM(s) / F9(s).

I have used Very Fluid" for the sole reason of compacting the side. Italy were very compact from front to back. I added the TI "Be more disciplined" to try and negate the crazy things. I also would not say "push higher up" is reflective of Italy at all. The DCs step forward a lot when they are in possession, but when italy lose possession they drop deep and refer to a deeper midfield press rather than a Pep / Klop Gegenpressing high line setup. Also wouldnt be too sure about "pass into space" - i can see it for the wingbacks, at times they played the ball ahead of Candreva, but when it came to balls to the strikers, it was almost all in to feet / chest.

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I wonder if a flat midfield with a CM/d would allow the `defensive 5` and also create that space between Giacc and Parolo?

I would say that, using Darmian as a Wingback gives more of a 4.5/5.5 defensive/attacking split. It is interesting using the 5&5 approach as it creates balance but possibly concedes some attacking impetus? Bielsa for example loves the 4/6 split.

I dont think they need De Rossi as such as a defensive anchor. Look at Conte's Juve with Pirlo. Regularly it was Barzagli-Bonucci-Chiellini-Pirlo diamond as the Wing Backs advanced, the pair of Central Mids drifted wide and the Strikers dropped in deep. The "Back 4 Diamond" had lots of creativity and also defensive ability. Look how well they did. I think that is still in Conte's mind.

I do think in FM that a Regista would work but leave you more prone on the Break. It is why I use an Anchorman in a similar set up as he does act like a Regista at times, he dicates play from the back but also engages in the press further up in defensive transition and will retreat deep if need be.

As an aside, the BWM/support role can be adapted to be more of a B2B hybrid and an attacking outlet by selecting Get Forward, Dribble With Ball, Shoot More Often and More Risky Passes. Possibly an interesting experiment setting the Giacc role as this with Parolo a more conservative and generic BWM/defend?

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I might be off on this, and would need to look back on the game, but i dont think Giaccherini was overly attacking. He shuttled back a fair bit, in line with Conte's absolutely love of B2B players. I think CM(a) is probably too attacking to represent him, but i think adding "get further forward" as PI to the B2B would be a fair compromise?

Yes the strikers were defo not right in that first attempt. I was trying to recreate how deep the came when Italy defended, but F9 also didnt keep up enough with aggressive wide attacks by Candreva. I did think of DF, but i am not sure that Eder and Pelle did as much pressing. As i say, the real parallel for me with the strikers was Athletico - you often see their strikers very deep when they defend, but they still get forward very quickly. I will need to have a think.

See my comment above re: BWM/s but yes, B2B with Gets Forward More could be a sufficient compromise with the FM Match Engine.

Ah, the Atletico front 2. So hard to replicate in FM. So many options and probably all of them wrong in the FM Match Engine Universe.

TM/s -- DLF/s?

DLF/s -- DF/s?

TM/s -- TM/a?

DF/s -- DF/d?

Could all be viable options.

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Or even 2 x AMC could arguably be the ME replication of that ;-)

Lots of good points in your post, will reply properly in a bit, for now beer o'clock is calling :)

If we were playing FM15 i would agree. On FM16 I have found using Strikers much beneficial going forward and linking attacking play.

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Hi to all.

I have the same problem recreating the front duo of a Juventus/Italian National Team/Ventura's Torino like formation in a similar system I am trying to implement in FM.

Currently I have:

Gk/d

Wb/a Cd/c Bpd/x Cd/c Wb/a

B2b/s Dlp/d cm/a

Dlf/s Af/a

Standard

Very structured (thinking to change it to normal - or fluid)

Play larger

More discipline

Play little higher

Early crosses

Play from back

The shape creates a nice wide 3-3-4 offensively, in the way Conte was playing, especially with Juventus. When defending, it drops back into a compact 5-3-2.

Two problems here, with my strikers duo:

1. During offensive transition, they tend to go very wide on the pitch and far one from the other, while I intended them to play near and try to make some quick and technical combination, trying to disrupt the opponent's difensive shape while waiting for the wing backs to run into the offensive third.

2. In defense, they press nicely the center backs, but when the ball reaches the midfield they stay up front leaving miles of space between them and my midfielders. What I wanted here was that they retained a compact shape, offering an outlet to defenders and midfielders when I get the ball back.

Thank you for any advice and sorry for my poor english!

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The one thing your shape would not do, i suspect, is create the back 3 / 4 hybrid? Interesting choices on the strikers. My second attempt is actually TM(s) / F9(s).

I have used Very Fluid" for the sole reason of compacting the side. Italy were very compact from front to back. I added the TI "Be more disciplined" to try and negate the crazy things. I also would not say "push higher up" is reflective of Italy at all. The DCs step forward a lot when they are in possession, but when italy lose possession they drop deep and refer to a deeper midfield press rather than a Pep / Klop Gegenpressing high line setup. Also wouldnt be too sure about "pass into space" - i can see it for the wingbacks, at times they played the ball ahead of Candreva, but when it came to balls to the strikers, it was almost all in to feet / chest.

Regarding the hybrid back 3/4, playing on very fluid encourages players to help teammates out and to fill gaps so when we are in defence it would a somewhat slanted 4-4-2. To create this the W-A (Candreva) would push up leaving space to be filled by the right CD-D (Barzagli), and the DM-D (De Rossi) would drop slightly.

G-D

CD-D BPD-D CD-D

DM-D WB-S

W-A CM-D BBM-S

DF-S TM-S

Not a flat 4-4-2 but this is essentially how Italy defended the flanks against Belgium.

I decided on the DF-S and TM-S partnership because I wanted both strikers tracking back. The support duties and the very fluid team shape helps with this.

I would have to agree to disagree on Italy's high line against Belgium. BBC's pundits did a whole segment on how Lukaku was unable to exploit Italy's high line. I'll link it. https://streamable.com/k85f

Pass into space was mainly for the gaps that playing very fluid helps to create but maybe I will reconsider. Thanks for the feedback though Jambo.

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How much does the W/a drop though? You're going to be exposed on the counter surely? That's a big gap for an opponent to exploit, especially as on defence, even on Very Fluid, your back 3 will drop and sit very narrow. If you want to play the Candreva role that high, and to be honest, I wouldn't going on the basis that the shape you see is to represent the defensive structure, you need a role that will do more defensively - possibly WM/s (or even W/s would be better). While the Winger/attack role does track back more it is nowhere near enough to represent Candreva acting as an advanced wing back. You need his starting position to be in the Wing Back slot so he is deep enough normally to defend wide and has enough forward space to surge into, not the other way round. Using a CWB will, more often than not, result in him forming a pseudo-front-3 on attack - as we saw in that match. Then he would make a concerted effort to get back when possession is lost.

Look at Conte's subs and what he said about wanting his wide-players to come off the field at 60 minutes, spitting blood from the effort they put in. Would a W/a achieve this level of running/attacking and defending? That's not to say that your idea wont work - It's another good effort and if it works for you then that's briiliant. I just feel that Jambo is closer to achieving the little nuances in Italy's system against Belgium.

As a side note, as amazing as Spielverlagerung is, a lot of the base diagrams seem show the average positions (like in the Prozone analysis after a game in FM) so starting from there, while that is what you would maybe see from some AI teams, isn't really ideal and can create the defensive and disjoint issues some users seem to have.

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I agree, he is not an IWB at all (people are also very confused by that role - It is not simply meant to represent a wingback playing on his wrong side, its meant to re-create a very specific type of position, which was mainly operated by Alaba and Lahm at Bayern a year or two back. A FB who moves deliberately into DM / CM when in possession. It doesnt work properly on FM yet, but thats what the role is intented to be. Darmian is in no way that type of player).

That's what it was originally supposed to be, but on FM16, they changed the description. Is the long term plan to still have the IWB sitting in midfield?

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That's what it was originally supposed to be, but on FM16, they changed the description. Is the long term plan to still have the IWB sitting in midfield?

According to the Bugs Forum the IWB works as intended, ie, Stays wide and then acts like an Inside Forward once high enough up the pitch. I doubt it will change. It would be nice to get the Marcelo Bielsa / Pep Guardiola Fullback > Central Midfield role and I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to code as it's just like the deep/defensive version of the Wide Playmaker movement really and with the success of Lahm/Alaba/Vidal etc in that role recently there's not reason really for SI to not include it, seeing as so many people want it.

We will see what FM17 brings.

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Regarding the hybrid back 3/4, playing on very fluid encourages players to help teammates out and to fill gaps so when we are in defence it would a somewhat slanted 4-4-2. To create this the W-A (Candreva) would push up leaving space to be filled by the right CD-D (Barzagli), and the DM-D (De Rossi) would drop slightly.

G-D

CD-D BPD-D CD-D

DM-D WB-S

W-A CM-D BBM-S

DF-S TM-S

Not a flat 4-4-2 but this is essentially how Italy defended the flanks against Belgium.

I decided on the DF-S and TM-S partnership because I wanted both strikers tracking back. The support duties and the very fluid team shape helps with this.

I would have to agree to disagree on Italy's high line against Belgium. BBC's pundits did a whole segment on how Lukaku was unable to exploit Italy's high line. I'll link it. https://streamable.com/k85f

Pass into space was mainly for the gaps that playing very fluid helps to create but maybe I will reconsider. Thanks for the feedback though Jambo.

I would disagree - it is not how Italy defended the flanks. Your system will create a hybrid 3/4 using the DM as the 4th DC. That can be a good system and its exactly how Barca used to do it (although HB rather than Anchor) but it is not how Conte / Italy did it. De Rossi did not drop into the backline - as highlighted in some of the early posts, they created it very much by using Darmian and Barzagli to float across. I cant see any way you can interpret Candreva's position as winger/attack tbh.

Interesting on the strikers, i was looking at a similar partnership. How deep do they come for you? any screnshots / analysis to show that? I found that with 2 support duty they came deep, just not deep enough. Its probably a fairly marginal thing though to be fair.

The Dline is an interesting one. You are right, the pundits picked up on the high line at times, but at other times, as belgium worked forward, the Dline immediately dropped back deeper. You will very rarely see BBC (in the Juve term) caught out by balls in behind or over the top.

That's what it was originally supposed to be, but on FM16, they changed the description. Is the long term plan to still have the IWB sitting in midfield?

Ah my bad - i had not even noticed that. Think they should have renamed it rather than that but hey ho!

According to the Bugs Forum the IWB works as intended, ie, Stays wide and then acts like an Inside Forward once high enough up the pitch. I doubt it will change. It would be nice to get the Marcelo Bielsa / Pep Guardiola Fullback > Central Midfield role and I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to code as it's just like the deep/defensive version of the Wide Playmaker movement really and with the success of Lahm/Alaba/Vidal etc in that role recently there's not reason really for SI to not include it, seeing as so many people want it.

We will see what FM17 brings.

Yes sorry that was me applying the FM15 description of the role, not the FM16 one. Cant say i have used it in FM16 (i find that CWB cuts inside anyway courtesy of the roaming instruction it has hard coded).

The fact that they couldnt get the Alaba / Lahm IWB to work in FM15 suggests there is some challenge in the ME with doing it, but would be nice to see it. Although i confess i was one of those who challenged whether we really should include a role which had so few real life examples of it being used (Even bayern dont / didnt use it often).

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Yea, it is specialised, and you can kind of* achieve it, (* its not a fullback > central mid) using a WM(d) with sit narrower/cut inside... its a dog of a mash-up though!

Putting a role in that is only used by Pep at Bayern and Bielsa at Chile does seem a little strenuous I do agree. It would be nice though.

Jambo, did you experiment any more with the Italy set up? I can get DLF/s and DF/d to defend deeper, but as you say, it is (as with so many things on FM) marginal.

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https://tompaynefootball.wordpress.com/2014/10/18/tactical-analysis-of-chiles-3-4-1-23-4-3-system/

This link is for Sampaoli / Chile NT back 3/5 but, as mentions in Tom Paynes excellent analysis (about a third of the way down) the Pendulating back 3/4/5 has resemblance to Juventus' (Conte's) approach. If you look at the diagrams you will see something very similar to Italy v Belgium (albeit with the front men lined up differently - but lets ignore them for now).

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I never did progress it any further, got sidetracked by another save last night / today! I will have another look sometime...... :)

Interesting article on Chile. There are a few similar ones on Paulo Sousa at Fiorentina, who has used this system (I alluded to it earlier, but he also incorporates elements of Peps rampaging outer DC approach).

I was there there was one on thesefootballtimes about Fiorentina, but i cant find it. This one does give some good analysis of how the back 3 becomes a 4.

https://runningtheshowblog.wordpress.com/2015/11/12/analysing-paulo-sousas-innovative-fiorentina-tactics/

Generally its Marcos Alonso at LWB droping in. Roncaglia at RCB moving across and Bernardeschi moving forward from RWB to be more aggressive. (the example in the article is actually somewhat different because Bernardeschi played LB in that game). The author makes the point that the reason to do it this way is down to the players. Both Alonso the other LB at Fiorentina are natural fullbacks, where as Bernardeschie is a converted winger. The added bonus is that Fiorentina's right sided DC's are both also capable at RB. You could make the same observations with Italy, when considering Candreva v Darmian.

Again, Fiorentina use a very different attacking system, but for the back 3/4/5 its almost identical to Conte's Italy.

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Say I wanted to create Conti's Juventus tactic. How would you go about it?

I am thinking a counter tactic as alot of the threads from previous years have said Conte used a counter strategy. I have noted though that in Serie A they enjoy it's of possession so would that not suggest a control approach?

I would look at playing a flat back 5 as I often find WBR/L tend to not work as well defensively as DR/L. I would use a BPD inbetween two CD's to create Bonucci's role. I can never sort out the midfield and strikers to work how I want so I was looking for some guidance on were to go with that.

Has anyone created a successful replication of his tactic?

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Say I wanted to create Conti's Juventus tactic. How would you go about it?

I am thinking a counter tactic as alot of the threads from previous years have said Conte used a counter strategy. I have noted though that in Serie A they enjoy it's of possession so would that not suggest a control approach?

I would look at playing a flat back 5 as I often find WBR/L tend to not work as well defensively as DR/L. I would use a BPD inbetween two CD's to create Bonucci's role. I can never sort out the midfield and strikers to work how I want so I was looking for some guidance on were to go with that.

Has anyone created a successful replication of his tactic?

There are a few approaches. If you want the Flat Back 5, try the back 5 as you suggest with Bonucci as the BPD/c and a pair of CWB's, then a Regista (Pirlo) then initially try a pairing of CM/s's and a DLF/a & AF/s combo?

You could play Counter, or even Control with a deeper D line.

Set GK to distibute to Centre Backs. Shorter Passing except for Pirlo. The Midfield/Striker roles are the question as in some Conte tactics the CM's drift wide and the Strikers drop in to the hole they create - this is nigh on impossible in FM.

Perhaps Wider, Play out Defence, Close Down More and Work Ball Into Box as a start?

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How much does the W/a drop though? You're going to be exposed on the counter surely? That's a big gap for an opponent to exploit, especially as on defence, even on Very Fluid, your back 3 will drop and sit very narrow. If you want to play the Candreva role that high, and to be honest, I wouldn't going on the basis that the shape you see is to represent the defensive structure, you need a role that will do more defensively - possibly WM/s (or even W/s would be better).

As everyone knows the FM ME is not a perfect representation of football. One of the main reasons I have him on W-A is that he can provide some penetration down the right flank. To counteract his attacking vulnerabilities I put a CM-D beside him. I put him in the midfield strata because he was further up the pitch than Darmian.

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My best advice use generic roles, I managed to make 352 that comes close, you will need to play with a highish line regardless of mentality so you can mimic the way they play. Just watching the sweden game alone you can see how high up the field the 3 DCs push. The two forwards are deep lying forwards as well. Not defensive by any chance, since they don't close down aggressively.

To get Candreva playing the way he is..I played him as a CWB on attack. The 3 DCs were DCD combinations. The 2 central mids were just generic ones and a DM playing as a generic dm, both my central midfielders are on support. One wingback on the left is not complete. He doesnt roam as much as Candreva

You can play contes system, with the same roles...in these combinations. Counter/Structured, Control/Fluid, Attacking Fluid.

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My best advice use generic roles, I managed to make 352 that comes close, you will need to play with a highish line regardless of mentality so you can mimic the way they play. Just watching the sweden game alone you can see how high up the field the 3 DCs push. The two forwards are deep lying forwards as well. Not defensive by any chance, since they don't close down aggressively.

To get Candreva playing the way he is..I played him as a CWB on attack. The 3 DCs were DCD combinations. The 2 central mids were just generic ones and a DM playing as a generic dm, both my central midfielders are on support. One wingback on the left is not complete. He doesnt roam as much as Candreva

You can play contes system, with the same roles...in these combinations. Counter/Structured, Control/Fluid, Attacking Fluid.

I agreed with most of that, but dont think that playing Darmian / Florenzi at LWB as WB(a) is reflective of how Conte played it in the Belgium came (somewhat more so today - Florenzi is far less of a fullback than Darmian, and is much more right footed).

Do you believe that playing the way you suggest there gives the back 3 / 4 floating hybrid? I would expect it just to be a bit of a lopsided 352?

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Really was interested in this after the Belgium game, even though Belgium played into Italy's hands by going narrow and not having real fullbacks. I haven't seen Italy-Sweden yet, but these two passing diagrams are interesting: not sure this is a one-size fits all way to play. Note how high the wingbacks are getting and how frequently their CBs found the front two in the Belgium game (but not vs Sweden).

Ck3BvSZWsAAUAS4.jpg

ClKdqV8WgAA_lcE.jpg

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My best advice use generic roles, I managed to make 352 that comes close, you will need to play with a highish line regardless of mentality so you can mimic the way they play. Just watching the sweden game alone you can see how high up the field the 3 DCs push. The two forwards are deep lying forwards as well. Not defensive by any chance, since they don't close down aggressively.

To get Candreva playing the way he is..I played him as a CWB on attack. The 3 DCs were DCD combinations. The 2 central mids were just generic ones and a DM playing as a generic dm, both my central midfielders are on support. One wingback on the left is not complete. He doesnt roam as much as Candreva

You can play contes system, with the same roles...in these combinations. Counter/Structured, Control/Fluid, Attacking Fluid.

Can you explain why you chose these mentality/team shapes combinations?

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I've replicated it, I like it...so i dont care what you guys say lol.And this is the tactical shape. The CWB is a lot more attacking than the Right back, the transition from defense to midfield and final third transitions look good. And we've been scoring goals off the counter, as well as camp when we need to. We only use 3 shouts. Now its up to you lot to figure it out..

I have explained in all my torino videos when i change shapes and why I do it. And my dark arts video explains it in great detail. Its a really long explanation :-(

Defensively it was a titan!

For now I am gonna celebrate the marker that Belgium set down. Great game

AUhZDRU.jpg

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I've replicated it, I like it...so i dont care what you guys say lol.And this is the tactical shape. The CWB is a lot more attacking than the Right back, the transition from defense to midfield and final third transitions look good. And we've been scoring goals off the counter, as well as camp when we need to. We only use 3 shouts. Now its up to you lot to figure it out..

I have explained in all my torino videos when i change shapes and why I do it. And my dark arts video explains it in great detail. Its a really long explanation :-(

Defensively it was a titan!

For now I am gonna celebrate the marker that Belgium set down. Great game

AUhZDRU.jpg

3 PI's I believe would be retain possession, play out of defence, and higher defensive line. Probably wrong haha.

I am assuming you used 3 different approaches throughout the season as you mentioned 1) Counter/Structured 2) Control/Fluid 3) Attacking/Fluid earlier in this thread. As you may have seen I was taking a look at Conte's system too. Did you get the GK to distribute to CB's as well?

I tried looking, but where do I find your videos at?

BustTheNet Youtube

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I think the shouts are:

1. Higher defensive line

2. Prevent short goalkeeper distribution

3. Play out of defence

The second and third are Rashidi's default (especially play out of defence)

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I think the shouts are:

1. Higher defensive line

2. Prevent short goalkeeper distribution

3. Play out of defence

The second and third are Rashidi's default (especially play out of defence)

#2 and #3 are correct.. I think it is Close Down Much More for #1 though.

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