Football Manager 2016 16.3.0 Feedback Thread

[swansongs]

The tactical attributes set for AI managers can have a huge effect on how realistically the game plays out. I think a lot of issues can be traced back to it. Like players who are regular starters in real life being transfer listed because their natural position doesn't fit into the AI manager's preferred formation.

I had this problem with Jefferson Montero during the beta. Transfer listed as his ML rating wasn't high enough, despite being a good player.

As it turned out my "mistake" has since been proven true to life (same with the Franck Tabanou issue).

[swansongs]

it should be 433 really. if it's 4141 than Barca plays 4141 too. SI finally got AML/R defensive positioning spot on imo. with support duty they defend ''normaly'', the flanks. with attack they stay higher up and deal with defenders and DMs..

if the closing down would be improved in future ME then the AML/R positions would have even more sense. currently pressing defenders isn't nearly near effective as it should..

Purely as a matter of opinion I don't consider this to be "spot on". The distinction between M and AM positions was less vague and muddled before, when position clearly dictated defensive positioning.

Players are happier now because it's back to what they are used to, but it's not a better way of doing things (imo).

[Mitja]

Purely as a matter of opinion I don't consider this to be "spot on". The distinction between M and AM positions was less vague and muddled before, when position clearly dictated defensive positioning.

Players are happier now because it's back to what they are used to, but it's not a better way of doing things (imo).

no, no it's spot on really

the point of top heavy systems is they have wide players higher up the pitch so they are able to press defensive line. all teams we are mentioning here do press high up. the problem is that closing down needs some work in FM..

[Sussex Hammer]

2-1 up against 10 men after having battered them for 90 minutes. Missed easy chances, heroic superhuman goalkeeping and you just know that the AI will find a way to equalise!!!!!

[video=youtube;-c-OwxlAd08]

[Alexivan]

Great strike. Reminds me of Papiss Cisse vs. Chelsea.

[Sussex Hammer]

Great strike. Reminds me of Papiss Cisse vs. Chelsea.

Yeah that was a good fluke as well!! I would have admired it more if Zaha didn't have Crossing 12, Finishing 11, First Touch 11, Long Shots 8, Technique 13, Composure 9, Vision 13, Balance 14 - Maybe what got him it was his flair at 17!!

[andu1]

2-1 up against 10 men after having battered them for 90 minutes. Missed easy chances, heroic superhuman goalkeeping and you just know that the AI will find a way to equalise!!!!!

[video=youtube;-c-OwxlAd08]

Cross "issue" with a devilish twist.

[Sussex Hammer]

Cross "issue" with a devilish twist.

Brilliant.... Oi SI, These crosses are getting out of hand now!!

[swansongs]

no, no it's spot on really

the point of top heavy systems is they have wide players higher up the pitch so they are able to press defensive line. all teams we are mentioning here do press high up. the problem is that closing down needs some work in FM..

Your earlier post praises the idea that players on Attack duty press high and Support duty defend "normally" (I assume track back). Duty should have no impact on the defensive contribution of players given the way the rest of the tactical system operates.

Elsewhere Duty dictates actions when your team has the ball. Position dictates starting defensive position. Role involves pressing instructions. The game is confusing enough as it is without mixing concepts up between the three lines of instruction.

If I want a winger to stay in the hole in attack (Support) but also stay high up the field when defending (AM), what instruction do I give when Supporting AMs track back deeper?

[Mitja]

Your earlier post praises the idea that players on Attack duty press high and Support duty defend "normally" (I assume track back). Duty should have no impact on the defensive contribution of players given the way the rest of the tactical system operates.

it's the metter of opinon (mostly SI's) if the Attacking duty should influence AML/R contribution in tracking back. I could agree with you here. the other soulution would be to seperate it from Duty. simple instructions like track back/stay further up could be usefull. but on the other hand players like Messi or Ronaldo (AML/Rs on attack duty) do bahave quite like Attack duties in FM. eventhough I'm not sure if Messi is good example as I don't think he plays as AMR in FM terms. but these two players are more of an exception than a rule.

Elsewhere Duty dictates actions when your team has the ball. Position dictates starting defensive position. Role involves pressing instructions. The game is confusing enough as it is without mixing concepts up between the three lines of instruction.

If I want a winger to stay in the hole in attack (Support) but also stay high up the field when defending (AM), what instruction do I give when Supporting AMs track back deeper?

I agree here these things could be made much clearer.

[Cougar2010]

Your earlier post praises the idea that players on Attack duty press high and Support duty defend "normally" (I assume track back). Duty should have no impact on the defensive contribution of players given the way the rest of the tactical system operates.

Elsewhere Duty dictates actions when your team has the ball. Position dictates starting defensive position. Role involves pressing instructions. The game is confusing enough as it is without mixing concepts up between the three lines of instruction.

If I want a winger to stay in the hole in attack (Support) but also stay high up the field when defending (AM), what instruction do I give when Supporting AMs track back deeper?

Attack duties have always resulted in players sitting slightly higher and pressing more when not in possession.

If an AM doesn't track back enough for you then the next step is to drop the position back to ML/MR.

I also find the actual player attributes also influence the play with more attack minded players mroe likely to stay forward and press the ball while more defensive minded ones will track back earlier and be more conservative. Basically you find a ML/AML will usually play differently from a AML/ST even with the same role & duty.

[penza]

Cross "issue" with a devilish twist.

see thats where the flaw is ... see the striker is well ahead of your defence... whatever setting you have you will concede a goal like this time and time again! if his cross was perfect the striker would have easily scored so flawed, its not about tactics as I tried over 10 tactics and this happen in any other game I played, I see that exact same goal so boring! See that defender just stays there and waits 3 seconds before it notices 'oh I need to actually do some defending... no way thats realistic!

he makes the run ... stops .. the defender turns looks at him waves hello...only then the defender decides to run after him but its too late!! if it was a perfect cross...no matter if you played Ultra defensive, put different shouts, put 3 or 5 defenders.. this would happen, saying otherwise is lying.

[swansongs]

If an AM doesn't track back enough for you then the next step is to drop the position back to ML/MR.

Yes. But what if your killer-ball-playing, long-shooting AM tracks back too much?

[swansongs]

simple instructions like track back/stay further up could be usefull.

If the position on the tactics screen is not this then what is it supposed to represent? It's you as manager telling the player where to stand.

[Cougar2010]

If the position on the tactics screen is not this then what is it supposed to represent? It's you as manager telling the player where to stand.

No, its not.

Its not really a position at all because a position as you understand it doesn't really exist. It simply represents an area of the field in which the player works within while defending & to a lesser extent attacking which gives the team a shape. Its then modified by role, duty, TIs, PIs, OIs, attributes and finally by what is happening on the pitch at that precise moment in time.

[Mitja]

Yes. But what if your killer-ball-playing, long-shooting AM tracks back too much?

you need to find the balance just like real managers do. exactly the reason why Bayern (or Barca) play ''4-3-3'' with AMLRs. Robben is probably most typical Inside Forward there is. plus these teams close down high up the pitch, which is their identity playing style. with closing down being far from effective compared to real life I think this is an aspect that creates much bigger problems in ME than finding the right balance with tracking back/pressing higher/starting defensive position. if the pressing was improved these issues would be far less obvious. currently it is almost impossible to put real pressure on defense, certenly for AI. it's mostly why agressive tactic vs defensive one easily creates strange looking matches where the opposite thing happens, posession wise.

[jere_d]

I'm finding a lot of players unmarked in perfect crossing positions just wait to be closed down. I tell players to cross from deep but the majority of the time they keep searching for the byline or around the six yard area. not too sure if this is your "fix" to the high amount of crossed goals but it isn't fun to watch, quite annoying shouting cross the ball most of the game.

This might be beacause i play out of defence but a lot of my clearances from set pieces are pathetic and straight to ai's players outside the box whilst ai usual hits aroud halfway line.

Lastly seeing my striker is constantly being caught once he's past the last man, this is usually by defenders with much lower acceleration and pace sometimes with tackles from behind which are always good tackles, I watch a lot of footy and a lot of tackles from behind end up as a foul...

[gozcan]

Hi there,

I started playing after 16.3 update (I haven't played previous versions of FM16) and as a long time player of the series, I can tell that goals from crosses are crazy. Not that I always concede but I also score crazy goals so it is like a problem for every side. Anyway, I don't really have time to read all the pages but as far as I can tell this is an issue that many experienced. Is there way to balance it in the game? Is there anything we managers can do to concede less goals etc.?

[swansongs]

No, its not.

Its not really a position at all because a position as you understand it doesn't really exist. It simply represents an area of the field in which the player works within while defending & to a lesser extent attacking which gives the team a shape. Its then modified by role, duty, TIs, PIs, OIs, attributes and finally by what is happening on the pitch at that precise moment in time.

Too many parts of the tactical system represent vague/broad footballing concepts rather than straightforward and easy to understand technical instruction. How can anyone expect consistency within the data?

It made sense before they went back on their decision and made AMs track back again. Players wanted a defensive 4-4-1-1 but wanted it to look prettier on screen or something.

[South-Side]

I had an issue with injuries also, didn't have this before and i'm in my 5th season. Did the same preparation off season, friendlies etc but as i got to the second group match in UCL players were falling left and right. Had a strange issue of strained stomach muscle injuries. 4 players fell to this, 1 on international leave. And the 5th got injured also on international duty for 8 weeks. The painful part was that 3 of the players were CB's, and i've ended up using full backs. Bad idea...

I had in my previous 4 season injuries but rarely and not concentrated all at the same time. Mostly gashed heads,blisters,flu,stuff like that.

Didn't buy many players in the off-season, only 1 or 2 and not the ones that got injured.

Training is Balanced since the regular season started and intensity average.

[Cougar2010]

Too many parts of the tactical system represent vague/broad footballing concepts rather than straightforward and easy to understand technical instruction. How can anyone expect consistency within the data?

It made sense before they went back on their decision and made AMs track back again. Players wanted a defensive 4-4-1-1 but wanted it to look prettier on screen or something.

The position is meant to be somewhat vague which you then add to with the other instructions, thats the whole point.

[swansongs]

The position is meant to be somewhat vague which you then add to with the other instructions, thats the whole point.

Vague starting points aren't a positive thing. Especially when the function of position is more straightforward for the other strata. It helps to know what we're modifying, and what is set by position.

Why have M and AM lines when you can make players function almost identically from both, defensively and in attack? If formation represents defensive positioning (as is the oft-repeated message) then it should absolutely do that with no exceptions.

imo

[Sussex Hammer]

Must confess no matter what I try I cannot make a player attack in the same way at ML/MR than he does at AML/AMR. It doesn't help that a player as say an AML Advanced Playmaker may be accomplished and natural in that role and position where if you put him as a ML Wide Playmaker he suddenly becomes competent and unconvincing - all for the sake of a few yards.

[HUNT3R]

Hi there,

I started playing after 16.3 update (I haven't played previous versions of FM16) and as a long time player of the series, I can tell that goals from crosses are crazy. Not that I always concede but I also score crazy goals so it is like a problem for every side. Anyway, I don't really have time to read all the pages but as far as I can tell this is an issue that many experienced. Is there way to balance it in the game? Is there anything we managers can do to concede less goals etc.?

There is plenty you can do. If you post in the Tactics forum and include your entire tactical setup, that'll be a good start.

[swansongs]

Must confess no matter what I try I cannot make a player attack in the same way at ML/MR than he does at AML/AMR. It doesn't help that a player as say an AML Advanced Playmaker may be accomplished and natural in that role and position where if you put him as a ML Wide Playmaker he suddenly becomes competent and unconvincing - all for the sake of a few yards.

Positional familiarity doesn't make a huge amount of difference despite what the graphics suggest. It's just a Decisions modifier, all their other attributes work as normal.

Players like Eden Hazard aren't as good when tracking back and taking part in defending (ML) as they are when they don't have to bother (AML) because they don't know the job and don't make good choices (Decisions). But it benefits the team (according to Jose or whoever). That's the function of positional familiarity, and why most wingers in the game have higher AML/R familiarity than ML/R.

Not being able to find good wide players in a 4-4-1-1 is a feature, not a bug in the data

[marsh82]

I'm finding a lot of players unmarked in perfect crossing positions just wait to be closed down. I tell players to cross from deep but the majority of the time they keep searching for the byline or around the six yard area. not too sure if this is your "fix" to the high amount of crossed goals but it isn't fun to watch, quite annoying shouting cross the ball most of the game.

THIS is the one thing I suffer from on this game. Hate it.

[skybluedude]

Has anybody noticed an increase in Offsides?

Might be that I am only paying attention to them since switching to Comprehensive highlights, but a lot of my attacks and the AI's are stopped for offsides, my tactics are set to control, normal defensive line and not to play an offside trap.

[swansongs]

Has anybody noticed an increase in Offsides?

Might be that I am only paying attention to them since switching to Comprehensive highlights, but a lot of my attacks and the AI's are stopped for offsides, my tactics are set to control, normal defensive line and not to play an offside trap.

The actual number of offsides per game might not have gone up, the game just considers every meaningless offside to be a highlight in comprehensive.

If you have players with "Tries to beat offside trap" untrain it immediately it's the worst.

[Cougar2010]

Vague starting points aren't a positive thing. Especially when the function of position is more straightforward for the other strata. It helps to know what we're modifying, and what is set by position.

How is it any different in others stratas?

Fullbacks sit are more forward with attack duties, stoppers as well in the centre while covers sit back more.

Up front supporting forward sit deeper while attacking forwards play higher up on the edge of the defensive line.

In midfield defend duties sit deeper while attacking duties push forward.

[jlammi]

Just saw Leicester win Premier League in first season with 80 points 4 points marginal to Tottenham. SI knows something...

[penza]

Just saw Leicester win Premier League in first season with 80 points 2 points marginal to Tottenham. SI knows something...

nice can you share screenshot

[jlammi]

there:

[KyleMacrae]

Hi. Has anyone noticed a difference in positional training since the update?? In 16.2 my natural left back was a limited full back and just wouldnt learn the full back role even if i trained him for like 2 seasons. Has this been fixed like SI say?

[HUNT3R]

Hi. Has anyone noticed a difference in positional training since the update?? In 16.2 my natural left back was a limited full back and just wouldnt learn the full back role even if i trained him for like 2 seasons. Has this been fixed like SI say?

What you're describing isn't positional training. It is role training. He's already a natural fullback. He'll improve in a certain role if he improves the attributes considered important for that role. To be able to improve attributes, ideally he needs to be under 25 although players can and do improve at 25 and older, albeit at a slower rate. Then he also needs to be able to improve, ie not reached is potential yet.

Positional training has been fixed by SI, not that I'm fully aware of what the issue was before, if I'm honest.

[Hunter T]

I don't watch Bayern games usually.

But is Guardiola really using 4-1-4-1 IRL ? I mean, with ML and MR ? Because in no way i see Robben/Ribery play in those positions...

From my simulated saves, Bayern usually fails, and i think it's down to this tactic.

This is something to raise in the German data thread as that will be a formation set by the researchers.

How dare you talking about tactics when they were two crosses in the far post that equalised the leg?

Honest to God, this bug is something else!

Thanks a lot SI, thanks a lot!

[swansongs]

How is it any different in others stratas?

Fullbacks sit are more forward with attack duties, stoppers as well in the centre while covers sit back more.

Up front supporting forward sit deeper while attacking forwards play higher up on the edge of the defensive line.

In midfield defend duties sit deeper while attacking duties push forward.

Not from what I've seen. Midfielders on Defend wait deeper when your team has the ball, but in defence they retreat to the same defensive line as the other duties (unless the ball-carrier is close to them then closing down instruction takes over). Support & Attack players tend to be positioned higher up the field when you turnover possession, and then are more likely to press due to being closer to the action, but they retreat to the same place when the team is under consistent pressure.

Stoppers and Covers also differ only in how far up the field they'll close down. When left alone they'll take up a roughly straight lines together with their fullbacks. Unless their tightly marking a specific player. I've never noticed any difference in starting shape in X-C-X, C-X-C or D-D-D back threes.

DLF-S drops off somewhat looking for spaces I guess, but AML/R on Support are the only positions where players will noticeably track back goal side in line with a different strata.

[swansongs]

there:

I knew Palace were going down. Always bet on Pardew to lose it in his second season.

[Cougar2010]

Not from what I've seen. Midfielders on Defend wait deeper when your team has the ball, but in defence they retreat to the same defensive line as the other duties (unless the ball-carrier is close to them then closing down instruction takes over). Support & Attack players tend to be positioned higher up the field when you turnover possession, and then are more likely to press due to being closer to the action, but they retreat to the same place when the team is under consistent pressure.

Stoppers and Covers also differ only in how far up the field they'll close down. When left alone they'll take up a roughly straight lines together with their fullbacks. Unless their tightly marking a specific player. I've never noticed any difference in starting shape in X-C-X, C-X-C or D-D-D back threes.

DLF-S drops off somewhat looking for spaces I guess, but AML/R on Support are the only positions where players will noticeably track back goal side in line with a different strata.

I really don't see your issue tbh.

There are five main stratas in the game - Def, DM, Mid, AM & Forward. Obviously ignoring GK while Sweeper is a bit of an oddity.

If you put a defensive player with defend duty in the midfield strata he'll drop back deeper to a DM position/strata while a mid with an attack duty will hold their mid position and then close down more aggressively pushing forward to meet the opposition.

I can kinda see where you are coming from with your AML/R dropping back more in line with a ML/MR position. I don't think they are identical, I still think they sit marginally further forward and I also think as I mentioned a ML/AML seems to come deeper than a AML/ST does depending on his attributes. I also think SI tweaked the AM roles so that they do drop back more than before due to the complaints in FM15. Personally I never saw the issue, AML/R are more attacking positions so you shouldn't expect them dropping back as much as ML/MRs do.

[jlammi]

Surprise Bournemouth didnt went down, and Liverpool was only 13.

[swansongs]

I really don't see your issue tbh.

...

If you put a defensive player with defend duty in the midfield strata he'll drop back deeper to a DM position/strata while a mid with an attack duty will hold their mid position and then close down more aggressively pushing forward to meet the opposition.

Only part of this is true. Midfield players on Defend don't drop into the DM strata to defend. They just have a deeper position when you are in possession. Their defensive line is the same as their Support and Attack counterparts.

It can often look like they take up higher lines because they are more likely to get involved in pressing/marking due to the higher position when turning over the ball, but they drop back the same distance to the same line.

[swansongs]

Personally I never saw the issue, AML/R are more attacking positions so you shouldn't expect them dropping back as much as ML/MRs do.

I agree, this is my entire point. It doesn't make sense to do things this way, especially since they got rid of the wide forwards positions (for very good reason).

Players expected (based on previous games) AML/R to act defensively like ML/R and SI went back on their positive changes to how the positions were defined in the match engine. Researchers entering a 4-2-3-1 as their manager/team's preferred formation are playing potluck with how the ai then chooses to interpret it with their selected roles.

[swansongs]

Jordi Amat explains the benefits (to the other team) of a 4-2-3-1 setup:

"A lot of times, they send four or five players forward when they attack, and that’s when our moment comes. They only have Coquelin in midfield, and if we get the ball back, that’s when our opportunity starts.

Our first goal was like that. The front four didn’t drop back, I got the ball back from Özil, my teammate Cork took it, passed it into space, and we scored."

[OrientTillIDie]

I don't know if this is feedback or a wish list thing but I'll try it here first.

I get mega annoyed when my assistant keeps saying "We're being overrun by their midfield" and then tells me in EVERY team advice meeting that we need to play 5 in the midfield.

No Mr Assistant Manager!! I'm playing 4-4-2 and I'm not bothered about possession. We're top of the league with the best scoring record and tightest defence. I'm not going to change it. Then I had a thought... Maybe his preferred formation is 4-5-1 or a variant of 4-5-1. I checked. His preferred formation is 4-4-2. What the hell man? Are you stupid? Why do you want me to play 5 across the middle when you have the same outlook on football as me?

Is it possible this can be sorted? It blows my mind how useless the advice that these staff members give is. Even brilliant assistants and coaches have no intelligence.

[forameuss]

I don't know if this is feedback or a wish list thing but I'll try it here first.

I get mega annoyed when my assistant keeps saying "We're being overrun by their midfield" and then tells me in EVERY team advice meeting that we need to play 5 in the midfield.

No Mr Assistant Manager!! I'm playing 4-4-2 and I'm not bothered about possession. We're top of the league with the best scoring record and tightest defence. I'm not going to change it. Then I had a thought... Maybe his preferred formation is 4-5-1 or a variant of 4-5-1. I checked. His preferred formation is 4-4-2. What the hell man? Are you stupid? Why do you want me to play 5 across the middle when you have the same outlook on football as me?

Is it possible this can be sorted? It blows my mind how useless the advice that these staff members give is. Even brilliant assistants and coaches have no intelligence.

I guess it's not dynamic enough. What your assistant is saying in that situation isn't necessarily incorrect. You probably are getting over-run in midfield by a simple sum of 5 > 4. But it's context that needs to get added around these things. Your assistant is reacting instantly to situations he sees without any kind of context.

[OrientTillIDie]

I guess it's not dynamic enough. What your assistant is saying in that situation isn't necessarily incorrect. You probably are getting over-run in midfield by a simple sum of 5 > 4. But it's context that needs to get added around these things. Your assistant is reacting instantly to situations he sees without any kind of context.

Yes that's the exact issue. I totally agree with him that mathematically I am getting overrun in the midfield but that's not a huge concern of mine. Plus the fact that he keeps suggesting I play 4-5-1 is really flipping annoying.

[skybluedude]

The actual number of offsides per game might not have gone up, the game just considers every meaningless offside to be a highlight in comprehensive.

If you have players with "Tries to beat offside trap" untrain it immediately it's the worst.

Thanks for the info! Didn't think to look for that PPM, that could be the problem.

[Fmfan00]

Quick question based on the 16.3.0 update.. I am currently using a custom database..when we first select new career it gives us the option of original database or the 16.3.0 one. Now the currently custom database that i have doesn't work with the 16.3.0 official database update.. if i go and use the original one that is in the pull down screen i can still play with the the 16.3.0 update correct just not the updated rosters?

[Guest]

If I understand what you're asking then yes, any new game will start on the latest code but by using the original database you are exposed to some bugs that required database corrections to fully fix.

[Fmfan00]

If I understand what you're asking then yes, any new game will start on the latest code but by using the original database you are exposed to some bugs that required database corrections to fully fix.

The person who released the custom database is making a roster patch for the 16.3.0 patch... is the bugs that you say are they major ones or is the old database with the 16.3.0 update ok to to play until the new database that i want to use is released

[Guest]

Unfortunately I do not know what bug fixes require you to use the winter database, normally they are competition rule/scheduling bugs & of course any bugs caused by data input errors.