Developing my 4-4-2

[SteelCityColt]

Yep also a good solution. I prefered to go with a more Structured shape as I didn't want the extra creativity affecting my chosen player roles too much. If Very Fluid works for you then great .

Stick at it, I'm sure you'll get there.

If you are looking at a 4-2-3-1, moving the midfield back a line can be an option if you are struggling. So your 2 x MC become 2 x DM, your AML/R move to ML/MR, and the AMC goes to MC. You could even use a 4-5-1 and adjust roles to create the 4231 shape.

Alternatively, if you really want to stick with AML/R + AMC, giving both MCs a defend duty can help.

I've had this on the drawing board, but as one of my MCs can't really play DMC I wasn't happy with it. I ended up at one point with a DMC (DM Def), MC (either DLP/S or BBM/s) and an AMC (AM/S) which I didn't try out as it just looked wrong on paper. Might give it a whirl. I've not yet really started my game so I've been playing over the same few matches for some trial and error of concepts.

[herne79]

I would be interested to see / hear a bit more about how your AF works in this system actually Herne.

The lone striker is something i am struggling with in FM16. I need to look at it more, but getting them involved in goalscoring is a challenge. I have rarely used an Advanced forward over the last few years, and be interested to see what player type and PPMs you utilise, and whether any specific PI.

Am i right in assuming the AF also helps create the space for the Treq?

The Advanced Forward and Trequartista

Apologies - this turned into a fairly lengthy post .

I haven't talked much about this combination, only in passing about how I want the AF to be my "spearhead, pushing against the defence" and hardly anything at all about the TQ.

First off, these are my 2 chosen players for each role (I have younger players I'm developing as their back ups, but I'll just focus on my main two players for now):

Note - I'm in season 2, so attributes have changed a little from the start.

Just to clarify - Kane as the AF, Tevez as TQ .

For the Advanced Forward role, I learned a lot for that from my FM15 save I did with Arsenal where I created a 4-3-2-1 Christmas Tree tactic. I had fully expected Danny Welbeck to nail that role, but as it turned out Giroud was far better. I did a little study on that at the time, and the major difference was down to Anticipation and Composure. Since then, those are the 2 attributes I place the most emphasis on when looking for an Advanced Forward.

This is the thread I made if you really want to help your insomnia http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/435387-Zone-14-and-the-Christmas-Tree.

That thread was mainly about "Zone 14", or playing in the pocket of space in front of the defence - and I used a Trequartista / AF combo there (along with an attacking midfielder). There's even some analysis in it about comparing an Advanced Playmaker to a TQ (a TQ seems to be more vertical in his passing, compared to an AP's more patient sideways passing).

Anyway, back to Harry Kane. Good Anticipation and Composure, and apparently he's one of our own . I'd be happier with more aggression, but everything is a compromise at some point. He's also strong - a physical presence like I found with Giroud. I want him actively pushing against defenders, forcing them back (to open space for the TQ, more on that later). He's also a physical presence in the box, giving my players (especially the wide men) a target for crosses. This helps me choose the Advanced Forward role over other options:

Poacher - would play on the shoulder, running along the defensive line, rather than pushing against it opening space. I have to be aware of my strike partner (the TQ) in my choice of spearhead.

Target Man - just no. Too static, too much of a ball magnet. Would ruin possession and I'm not playing the long ball game.

Complete Forward - too much a jack of all trades, and would probably get too involved in build up play. I want a physical presence getting into the box.

Deep Lying Forward - again, too involved in build up play. My TQ is the link to midfield.

False 9 / Defensive Forward - dismissed for the same reason as the DLF.

One final note here on PPMs. Kane has 2 PPMs at the start of the game - Shoots From Distance and Shoots with Power. The first thing I did was have him unlearn Shoots From Distance. I want quality chances, not someone blasting away from all angles.

In terms of other PPMs, I decided to not do anything until I had seen how Kane performs and adjust from there if needed. By the end of season 1, Kane had made 46 appearances (league, cup and european), scored 41, made 10 assists with an avg rating of around 7.7. He was runner up league top scorer. I decided not to change any more PPMs.

Could any other PPMs help even more? Possibly, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it as the saying goes.

Anyway, the following screen shot I think helps to show one of the reasons why I like the AF in this 4-4-2 system.

It's the build up to a goal scored by Kane. You can see he is actually standing in an offside position, but I'm ok with that as it shows he's pushing against the defence, not just passively running along it. So long as he isn't getting caught offside for the final ball, it's fine. Ward-Prowse is about to receive the ball and Kane simply moves into the space ahead of him, gets a one touch pass from Ward-Prowse and buries the ball in the back of the net. Kane's previous movement around the box before this was actually good as well, but difficult to show in still pictures.

Now onto Tevez and the Trequartista role.

I mentioned above that FM15 Christmas Tree save I had. My choice of TQ there was Ozil, who could hardly be a more different player to Tevez. Where Ozil is all about creativity and flair, Tevez is far more industrious. Still technically proficient, but stronger and more willing to put in a shift. People have this impression that a Trequartista just drifts around, doesn't do much defensively and has to be carried by the rest of the team. With the right player, that just isn't true.

Typically speaking, only my two wingers and the attacking fullback cover more ground during a match than my TQ. He runs more than my Box to Box midfielder and wingback. Not much "carrying" there.

I mentioned "with the right player". Ozil, in my FM15 save, did ok in this position. He didn't set the world alight but wasn't bad either. He had the odd great game, but I was left feeling a little disappointed overall. Tevez on the other hand is a star. Average rating was just over 8.0 season 1, scoring 25 goals in 44 matches, 11 PoM awards and 9 assists. The number of assists may be a tad low, but he is fully involved in build play - aggressively roaming looking for the ball. Further, he'll get into decent goal scoring positions, almost acting like a runner from deep.

His PPMs of Comes Deep to get Ball, Plays One Twos and Knocks Ball Past Opponent I think are just perfect, and is something I am learning into my back up player.

The following screen shot tries to show some TQ attacking play. This started from my own goal kick. Tevez started in his own half, making himself available for the ball. After some good interplay between himself, my midfield and left wing, he's moved into the 2nd striker position - I've highlighted Kane as well to show how advanced he is getting. Tevez gets the ball from Di Maria, runs and shoots from inside the box - the goalie saves but can only parry the ball into the feet of my advancing right wing, who scores. Tevez ended the match with a 9.0 rating, one goal and one assist.

So, there we have the two roles in isolation, but how do they combine - which is far more important.

First and foremost, the TQ needs space to work effectively. He's playing primarily in that pocket between defence and midfield, so he not only needs to find his own space (Tevez's work rate and aggression help there) but he also needs his team mates to help create the space for him. And that is where the AF can really help. Take a look at this screen shot - the match is literally just 10 seconds old.

We've kicked off and Di Maria has the ball out on the left wing. Look at Kane and Tevez. Kane is actively pushing up against their retreating central defenders which is creating a huge amount of space that Tevez is busting a gut to run into - he's so keen to get there he is running across my BBM. Sure enough, he gets the ball from Di Maria.

It's only because of Kane's movement against their back line that this space is opening up. Without that movement, the TQ would have to be more self-sufficient in finding space, and would be less effective.

Hopefully this (overly long) write up helps show why I have found this combination to be so good in my system .

Oh, I forgot to mention PIs. Neither player has been given any extra PIs.

**Update**

Not too shabby

[SteelCityColt]

I've had this on the drawing board, but as one of my MCs can't really play DMC I wasn't happy with it. I ended up at one point with a DMC (DM Def), MC (either DLP/S or BBM/s) and an AMC (AM/S) which I didn't try out as it just looked wrong on paper. Might give it a whirl. I've not yet really started my game so I've been playing over the same few matches for some trial and error of concepts.

So after doing some reading of this topic and Cleon's AOP post and drawing out the above I ended up with:

TIs I'm thinking of setting up with as Control/Structured, Retain Possession, Higher Closing Down.

I'm hoping that it it will play like a fairly aggressive 4-4-2, but I think it's a bit too attack weighted. Thought process is usual back 4 but with the FBs overlapping/supporting the wide men. DMC to break up play from the halfway line backwards and to provide cover for a FB bombing forward. The BBM to act as the transition between defense and attack.

Possible tweaks depending on how we go:

FBS to WB (S)

DM (S) to DM (D)

Change the BBM to a DLP (S) to make him sit a bit more and help out the DMC in the middle of the park.

T to an AMC, I'm trying to ape your setup to have 2 strikers but I'm concerned it will leave me too exposed.

Possibly if I've taken off the FB attacking roles change the F9 into an Attacking forward.

I'll let you know how badly it goes

[herne79]

Interesting set up.

I'd focus on the DMC at first, see if he is getting pulled out of position - you've already identified that though .

You can always load up a dummy save on FM Touch to test things out as well. On FMT, any tactic you create is automatically fully fluid straight away, even if you change something.

[SteelCityColt]

Interesting set up.

I'd focus on the DMC at first, see if he is getting pulled out of position - you've already identified that though .

You can always load up a dummy save on FM Touch to test things out as well. On FMT, any tactic you create is automatically fully fluid straight away, even if you change something.

Thanks for the tip, I've not dipped into FM Touch yet.

It's 4 days into having the game, I'm sleeping 4 hours a night and I've restarted twice and not got past preseason. I'm really loving the tactics side changes.

[Conflictinbanno]

Tactic looks a bit attack orientated however it could still work well defensively I think you could achieve the same want with WB/S to FB/A, one thing I have noticed on this game is with the ball they really do try and get forward. Also they may be more inclined to get back into shape than FB/A because they have a different mentality which could help your DM duty choice a lot too.

Other than that it is just making sure it defends exactly like you need!

[summatsupeer]

I don't want to take this great topic off on a tangent too much SteelCityColt but you have a massive space behind your W-S and TQ, I would consider moving your W-S from AMR to MR. You can play that exact same role+duty from the deeper position which should occupy that space better and potential create more space for your TQ behind there FB without the Winger getting in the way. In fact I think it might help your transition from defence as the winger starting deeper should be a easy pass for your DC/DMC/FB to make before he carries it forward and hopefully does some nice link up play with your TQ.

[SteelCityColt]

I don't want to take this great topic off on a tangent too much SteelCityColt but you have a massive space behind your W-S and TQ, I would consider moving your W-S from AMR to MR. You can play that exact same role+duty from the deeper position which should occupy that space better and potential create more space for your TQ behind there FB without the Winger getting in the way. In fact I think it might help your transition from defence as the winger starting deeper should be a easy pass for your DC/DMC/FB to make before he carries it forward and hopefully does some nice link up play with your TQ.

My apologies for herne79 for cutting in on his topic. Thank you for the tip!

[herne79]

My apologies for herne79 for cutting in on his topic. Thank you for the tip!

No problem at all, crack on !

[herne79]

Cleon has very kindly asked if he can serialise this write up on his own blog, which you can find here http://sisportscentre.com/.

There is a wealth of information and interesting articles contained within written by Cleon and other writers, so if you haven't already found it, go take a look .

Thanks Cleon.

[vincenzo143]

Cleon has very kindly asked if he can serialise this write up on his own blog, which you can find here http://sisportscentre.com/.

There is a wealth of information and interesting articles contained within written by Cleon and other writers, so if you haven't already found it, go take a look .

Thanks Cleon.

Congratulations herne, I've followed this thread in the background from the beginning and it's quality!

[summatsupeer]

Haha just saw that tweeted out, I was "yes something good to read" but then I was disappointed as i've already read it here

[herne79]

Variety is the Spice of Life

Something I haven't touched on yet is variety in attack.

Now there is nothing wrong with symmetrical systems. It is perfectly feasible to create successful tactics with the same type of attacking play on one side of the pitch to the other.

What I've done here is intentionally create a variety of ways in which my team attacks. Going right back to my OP, you can see how I want different types of wingers, a midfield runner, an overlapping fullback and a deep dropping number 10.

For me, this has 2 benefits:

1) It keeps the opposition guessing - my team is unpredictable.

2) If my opponents are adept at shutting down one type of attack, I have other options in reserve.

Have a look at my assist locations over the last 45 competitive matches:

To me, that really shows how we are not relying on just one or two areas / players to get our goals.

To (try, ha!) and demonstrate this further, rather than post up a load of screen shots I'm going to do something I haven't done before and upload a video to YouTube.

The video is of my recent 6-0 away win at Chelsea, and the goals were all scored by different means. I'll do a short write up of each goal so that you know what to expect, and then (hopefully) watch the video. It's in 1080p, so enlarge the screen (full screen if you can). Weirdly the sound doesn't seem to have uploaded, so I found some crappy canned muzak for you to sing-a-long to.

For reference, Chelsea lined up in their usual 4-2-3-1 formation. As always, I started off with my core tactic and I didn't change a single thing.

Goal 1 - Slow, patient build up play through the centre before working the ball out to the right flank. Notice how often Kranevitter (my BWM) is involved by always offering an outlet behind if forward movement hits a wall.

Goal 2 - Brilliant play by Di Maria down the left leaving Ivanovic for dead before crossing into the box for Kane to score. One of the benefits of using an Advanced Forward by having a presence in the box to aim at. Also shows off Di Maria's PIs and PPMs. Further, notice how it is Kane pressing the goalie, forcing him to kick long, that leads to the turnover.

Goal 3 - Good pressing from Kranevitter (first) and then Kane before Tevez nips in and scores. This shows how the TQ isn't just a link to midfield, but also a very potent goal scoring threat.

Goal 4 - Again Kranevitter involved, this time with a nice through ball assist for Tevez who skins the badly struggling Terry and scores for his hat trick.

Goal 5 - A well worked free kick. Stones runs to the near post, gets the flick on for Dier to score at the back post. I have set up a simple routine for corners and freekicks.

Goal 6 - Chelsea take a throw in from deep inside my half, from which we make a very fast break and score. Ward-Prowse has the PPM to switch the ball to the other flank which helps here - watch how the 2 cross field passes really catch the struggling Chelsea defence flat footed, and notice all the claret shirts running towards the Chelsea goal. Also interesting to see it is Tevez all the way back in his own box defending from the throw in that starts the break. Apparently TQs don't work hard...

[video=youtube;NIZL1s9ceng]

And to close, the match stats and shots:

[RTHerringbone]

The Match Stats widget; could you elaborate on what conclusions / hypotheses it enables you to form? Obviously you watch the opening few minutes and then switch to an abbreviated highlights mode. Do you simply watch for a change in the balance of the stats? What sort of shift in that balance, and in which particular stat, would prompt you to revert back to a Full Match?

I'm a huge fan of using widgets, and am interested in knowing how you use them to judge the flow of a game.

[herne79]

The Match Stats widget; could you elaborate on what conclusions / hypotheses it enables you to form? Obviously you watch the opening few minutes and then switch to an abbreviated highlights mode. Do you simply watch for a change in the balance of the stats? What sort of shift in that balance, and in which particular stat, would prompt you to revert back to a Full Match?

I'm a huge fan of using widgets, and am interested in knowing how you use them to judge the flow of a game.

In simplistic terms, yes I am looking for a change in the balance of the stats.

To elaborate, it begins before the start of the match. I'll use my next game against Middlesbrough to illustrate:

Pre-match, and during the first 15 mins or so of watching the match, I'm trying to get an overall feel for the game. That way, when I switch to a highlights mode, I have an impression in my head of how the teams are playing.

So this is my first port of call - the pre-match formation:

I'm thinking parked bus, isolated striker, hit me on the break. They'll be playing deep, not much attacking threat, conceding possession. I could easily be wrong, but that's my first impression.

After this, I watch the match for 15 mins or so on full. This lets me get a feel for what is happening, and if my first impressions are correct (as it turns out, they are).

When I make the move to highlights, this is how my screen looks (this is taken seconds after I made the switch, about 16 mins into the match):

By the way, I don't use any skins - everything you see here comes with the game.

I'll walk you through it.

Top left - the opposition formation. AI Managers can be very good at switching formation or changing player roles/duties (or even mentality). This widget, like all widgets, is live - it updates as soon as something changes. I can see instantly if, say, their left winger gets a more attack minded mentality because the little left wing icon shifts forwards slightly. If I'm playing against a particularly dangerous left winger (I'm not but lets imagine that's CR7 for a moment), that may prompt me to switch back to full match - I really don't want CR7 spoiling my day.

Bottom left - Middlesbrough team ratings. If someone's rating starts increasing, that could prompt me to swap to full match. Why are they improving? What's going on. Remember, I can pause and rewind the action as well. Sometimes you see player ratings drop dramatically, which some people may then target as a weak link. I don't do that, as that could upset the balance of my own team.

Screen centre - info on my own team. Is anyone having a bad game? Possible substitute. Is anyone booked and "looking aggressive"? Definite substitute. Anyone getting tired? Possible substitute. So using that to target substitutions is important for me. But there is another side to it. If several of my players are getting low ratings I need to start watching the game again. Whilst it doesn't necessarily mean we're playing badly, it's definitely an indicator that something may be amiss.

Bottom right - overall match stats. I love this widget. Again, whilst it never gives me conclusive facts, it provides indicators as to possible performance issues which I'll walk through:

Is anyone dominating the game, or is it fairly even. In this case, I am dominating. I've already had 6 shots (just 2 off target) compared to their zero. I have by far the majority of possession, I'm getting corners, my passing is excellent. They on the other hand are not doing much with the ball at all (half the number of completed passes compared to me), but they are tackling like devils. They're soaking a lot of pressure.

Again, because this is a widget, it uses live data. So you can watch it progress. Here's my game screen again, 41 mins into the match just after we scored (by the way I haven't changed anything in my system yet):

Hopefully you can see a progression here. In comparison:

Their formation hasn't changed.

A couple of their player's ratings are starting to drop, probably as a result of all the pressure I am applying.

On the other hand, my team are looking good. Body language is fine, condition is good, ratings are increasing - they are playing well.

The match stats support this. We've had a good number of shots on target making the goalie work, they've had one bad one. We're still dominating possession, whereas they are putting their bodies on the line to make tackles (27 tackles attempted).

Interestingly we have only attempted 10 tackles by this stage, which tells me Middlesbrough are (probably) just trying to clear their lines and we make interceptions. If they are making that many successful tackles, but we are dominating possession, we must be winning the ball back fairly quickly. If we aren't tackling to win it, we must be making interceptions - and fairly quickly after losing possession otherwise our possession stat would be lower. That indicates they are simply trying to clear their lines. That may, in turn, indicate their mentality (counter or defensive), because in low mentalities defenders look to clear the ball. (I've already decided that in the first 15 mins anyway, it merely shows they haven't changed).

Now, if all of this information continues to progress in my favour, and we are not scoring, that can prompt me to make a change. Perhaps to Team Shape to help creativity break into the parked bus. On the flip side, if the opposition stats start to pick up, again that could prompt me to make a change - or at least switch back to full match mode so I can watch what's happening (or rewind to review).

This is the type of thing I process as I watch a live game - as the widgets constantly update. I perhaps make this sound fairly simple, which for me it is: not only have I had a lot of practise watching these widgets, I'm also a trained data analyst by profession which probably helps.

However, I see no reason why all of this information can't be used by anyone. The trick is interpreting the information and applying that knowledge, and I think that just comes with practise.

I love all these questions. It really makes me think things through and sends me off down different avenues of thought. Top stuff.

[RTHerringbone]

Excellent response that, thanks

Widgets are such a powerful tool. I tend to have the AI formation widget, a heavily populated Match Stats widget, and a couple of Body Language ones.

[Jambo98]

That is a very interesting question and response, RTH and herne.

Recently i am trying to do a little bit the opposite with that particular widget. I had gotten a bit lazy i think and started to "over use" the match stats widget which can be dangerous, for a few reasons:

1) The shot count, whilst not a bad broad indicator, should be viewed with a bit of caution. Lots of shots does not necessarily mean you are the better side. One common example is the shots from distance scenario - 18 shots on goal, 11 from long range, against 6 shots on goal, 1 from long range. Which would you rather have there? I get around this a bit by adding "long shots" stats to my match stats widget.

2) The CCC / half chance counter, is, for me, a pain. It is quite simply broken, and has been for going on 3 years. It just does not properly count chances and can therefor again be misleading. I have watched countless games in detail where i get a one v one on the opposing keeper, gilt edged chance for me, only for the CCC counter to remain unmoved. I think it also counts a few things as "clear cut" which you or I would not particularly agree with.

It is a tricky balance, since the alternative of using a notepad or something to count chances on your own is a bit unrealistic. I am trying to just go with watching the game and making my own call on whether we are creating enough chances, and using the widget only for things like possession count (which is also actually not quite accurate, if you consider it against real life) and shot count (minus long shots).

An interesting and somewhat under discussed topic

[herne79]

That is a very interesting question and response, RTH and herne.

Recently i am trying to do a little bit the opposite with that particular widget. I had gotten a bit lazy i think and started to "over use" the match stats widget which can be dangerous, for a few reasons:

1) The shot count, whilst not a bad broad indicator, should be viewed with a bit of caution. Lots of shots does not necessarily mean you are the better side. One common example is the shots from distance scenario - 18 shots on goal, 11 from long range, against 6 shots on goal, 1 from long range. Which would you rather have there? I get around this a bit by adding "long shots" stats to my match stats widget.

2) The CCC / half chance counter, is, for me, a pain. It is quite simply broken, and has been for going on 3 years. It just does not properly count chances and can therefor again be misleading. I have watched countless games in detail where i get a one v one on the opposing keeper, gilt edged chance for me, only for the CCC counter to remain unmoved. I think it also counts a few things as "clear cut" which you or I would not particularly agree with.

It is a tricky balance, since the alternative of using a notepad or something to count chances on your own is a bit unrealistic. I am trying to just go with watching the game and making my own call on whether we are creating enough chances, and using the widget only for things like possession count (which is also actually not quite accurate, if you consider it against real life) and shot count (minus long shots).

An interesting and somewhat under discussed topic

"The are lies, damned lies, and then there are statistics". Mark Twain.

In other words, I completely agree. It's dangerous to rely on these things, but as indicators they can be great.

[Jambo98]

"statistics are like miniskirts, they give you good ideas but hide the most important thing" - Ebbe Skovdahl (and many other football managers over the years!)

Or if you prefer the american version....

"Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lampost. For support not illumination" - The legendary Vin Scully (again amongst others)

But yes, i think we agree. They are a useful guide, you just need to be aware of the pitfalls.

[this_game_is_unrealistic]

I'll be following this closely as the initial ideas and roles you use, share some familiarity with the Invinsibles 442 I did. A good post Herne, it's always nice to get an insight into how others play the game and learn a bit about their thought process as a whole

herne79 - this is a great thread, thank you

I've been playing with an "Invincibles" 442 until the year 2020 so far that started with reading some of Cleon's threads. I think this has inspired me to share and see what feedback is out there because I love 442

[sgevolker]

Thanks Herne,

for people with a small laptop screen it's a pity, that during the highlights the stats widgets don't close. So you can't see the half of the pitch and even the goals.

[herne79]

herne79 - this is a great thread, thank you

I've been playing with an "Invincibles" 442 until the year 2020 so far that started with reading some of Cleon's threads. I think this has inspired me to share and see what feedback is out there because I love 442

Good stuff, go for it .

Thanks Herne,

for people with a small laptop screen it's a pity, that during the highlights the stats widgets don't close. So you can't see the half of the pitch and even the goals.

Wow that's a pity, I had no idea. However to my simple mind that just doesn't sound right - a widget you can't close covering half the pitch? Not meaning to sound silly but if you look at the top of the match screen and the little tab that says "Pitch" - if you click on that is "Full" selected? If "Half" is selected you will indeed get half the screen covered with a widget.

[summatsupeer]

Yeah when using my PC I have a good sized widescreen so I use Match Stats (customised), My Team Rating, My Team Body Language, Opponents Body Language.

If on my laptop I use split view with verticle pitch and flick between panels on the other split.

[herne79]

End of Season 2 Review + Next Steps

Except for the odd match analysis, you may have noticed that I haven't posted any results so far. This is quite deliberate on my part as I wanted to focus on my thought process for developing a system and playing matches without the distraction of looking at results.

However, I have now reached the end of my second season and I need to decide how I progress from here - and looking at results will form part of that process.

First, a quick recap on where I'm at with the tactic (it's unchanged from earlier posts, but it saves referring back).

Formation, Roles and Duties:

Mentality, Team Shape and Team Instructions:

Player Instructions:

Every single match I played was started using that exact system. I should really keep track of how many matches I make a change in, but as I don't (something to do for season 3) I'd guesstimate it was perhaps a third of matches which required a minor change. Most of that third would have been a simple Team Shape change + removal of "Shorter Passing" to help creativity break through parked buses.

Not once during season 2 did I feel the need to reduce mentality below Standard to Counter or Defensive. On a few occasions I increased mentality to Control and once or twice to Attacking.

I should do a study on that, however you should be able to see from that that the core system is sound. So onto the results:

Barclays Premier League:

Other Competitions:

Possession and Passing:

Pretty sure I can be pleased with that.

So, where do I go from here?

Next Steps - Thames Ironworks

If you look at the possession figures, that's more than I originally envisioned. Remember, I didn't set out to create a possession tactic - just something that would give me the majority of possession most of the time.

When viewing it in those cold terms, it becomes easy to think I could relinquish some possession to create more attacking threat. After all, I change Team Shape and/or Mentality fairly regularly which sometimes helps me score goals. So why not just do that permanently?

But is changing the system worth while though? In the league, I am averaging 2.1 goals per game scored and conceding just 0.52 goals per game. That retains a kind of realistic feel to things for me - would anything more start to stray into an "arcade" type of feel? Would I just be getting greedy? Perhaps.

There is another consideration as well. We are dealing with finite issues here, not infinite. What I mean by that is (for example) teams can only park the bus up to a certain (or "finite") extent. There is a limit to how defensive a team can line up against me. I'm already finding my way through these buses - they can't park the bus "even more" to try to stop me, they can't go beyond the finite limit. You can only set your defensive line so deep, you can only stand off so much. These things are not infinite.

Overall then, Season 3 and beyond will be about squad and club development. Young players will need to be brought through, older players will need replacing (Tevez will be 34 next season), and the silly amounts of money being thrown at me will need spending.

The future is bright for the Thames Ironworks and I'll be carrying on with this thread.

Next Steps - Beyond

I've enjoyed this write up, I've enjoyed the interaction with contributors. I feel I'm a better FM player for it and I want to sincerely thank everyone for that.

More than anything else, I have enjoyed how this system has pulled together into what is probably my favourite ever FM save. And it's the potential in this system that I want to explore further. It's given me other ideas for different directions to go in, different formations to look at, but still retain the same "theme" when I start exploring.

If I write more threads in the future, don't be surprised if you notice similar core elements. I think, after 3 years of playing this game, I've finally found my FM style.

[shirajzl]

Amazing stuff.

Nothing that anyone asked me, but I'd like to see you with a team which is not suited to your tactic from the get-go. A team where you have to work with what you have for a season or two. I'd like to see your decision making process in that environment. I'm sure it'd be as good as this thread, maybe even more useful.

[herne79]

The Unsung Hero

I've been meaning to do a piece on my favourite role in this system, which I've finally got round to. And it may surprise some of you that my favourite role is the Ball Winning Midfielder, my unsung hero.

He's "unsung" as such essentially because he's not a headline grabber. He doesn't make assists (1 in 2 seasons), he doesn't score goals (3 in 2 seasons). My first choice BWM (who I'll come onto in a minute) has an average rating for both of the last 2 seasons of 7.24. My back up player ratings have been 7.19 (season 1) and 7.25 (season 2). Talk about consistency.

He's a "hero" as I'll hopefully demonstrate just how critical he is to the balance of the team and how he bosses the midfield.

First things first, this is my 1st choice pick for this key role:

If I had to sell 10 of my first choice 11, this is the player I'd keep. Strong, with great mental and defensive attributes. And a highly complimentary PPM (as we'll see). Quite possibly my most favourite player in the game.

So why do I rate this role so highly? I'll try to demonstrate by using some screen shots and description with my team both in possession and when defending.

#1 - In Possession

In a nutshell, he's always making himself available to receive a short pass. This goes right back to my OP where I talked about player passing options. By making himself available, it aids ball retention and recycling if an attack starts to falter.

When deep in his own half, he comes short to help start building an attack:

When in midfield, he offers an outlet in case options forward become blocked:

In more advanced areas, he takes up positions behind the ball carrier to again offer an outlet:

And any time he does get the ball, it's usually as a result of a short pass to him - which he then offloads in a similarly short fashion (ref. his PPM). This is why he's normally in the top 2 or 3 players each match for the number of passes made and received. He also has the team's highest pass completion rate (89%).

Here's Kranevitter's stats from the only match last season where he made an assist (this is away at Bayern Munich):

That's a 90% pass completion rate there.

And this stats shot brings me nicely on to his other duty.

#2 - Defending

15 tackles attempted, 14 won. More than double any other player. A tidy amount of Interceptions as well - and a few fouls (plus a yellow card) shows he isn't a shrinking violet.

Now, I've long held the view that Ball Winning Midfielders are akin to headless chickens. They go running around wildly, making poor decisions and generally getting pulled this way and that. I usually shied away from using them, favouring less aggressive roles such as Central Midfield (defend). My view has changed.

Whether this viewpoint has changed because of changes to the ME, the quality of player I am using, my own misconceptions or a crazy mix of all three, I don't know. All I can say with any degree of certainty is my BWM is anything but a headless chicken. Have a look at these pictures.

I call this first one "on patrol". Lahm has the ball out side, passing to Felipe Anderson. Despite an almost 4v2 overload on Di Maria and Goretzka, Kranevitter is simply holding position in central midfield, biding his time. He's not doing anything apart from keeping watch (he's actually just walking). My defensive line is good, Bayern aren't playing with any particular urgency, and my BWM is in a nice position to deal with any sudden moves.

Finally we see 2 screen shots of the BWM making decisions. The first picture shows Alaba on the ball directly in front of Kranevitter. But he doesn't close down Alaba, he stands off him. I would never have said that before about the BWM. And remember, I'm using the TI "Close Down More" on top of my Standard mentality.

A couple of seconds later, and Muller has drifted inside (losing his marker) to receive the ball from Alaba. Only now does Kranevitter spring into action, quickly closing down Muller and making a successful tackle.

And there we have it. My favourite player in the game, and my favourite role in this system.

Could a different role offer as much, perhaps even more? I don't know. I'd have to experiment to find out which in all honesty, with things working as well as they are, I don't really have the inclination to do.

As I've said before, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

[vincenzo143]

I must say that my opinion of the BWM role was exactly the same until this version of FM. I was more a CM(d) kinda guy myself, but I decided to try more of the roles that I had ignored or written off before and one of those was deciding to use Coquelin in a BWM role and I was pleasantly surprised too, yes he goes to close the ball down at times but he doesn't run off senselessly as I was expecting him to, it's like your screenshots show, he tends to pick the right occasions for closing down or standing off.

I managed to pick Kranevitter up in the January window in my Arsenal save for 8.75m on a "Backup" contract for 60k/w. He stepped in when Coquelin got injured for 3 months, I haven't stopped smiling since because he's just so damn reliable Quality player.

[Bruce Drundrige]

Top left - the opposition formation. AI Managers can be very good at switching formation or changing player roles/duties (or even mentality). This widget, like all widgets, is live - it updates as soon as something changes. I can see instantly if, say, their left winger gets a more attack minded mentality because the little left wing icon shifts forwards slightly. If I'm playing against a particularly dangerous left winger (I'm not but lets imagine that's CR7 for a moment), that may prompt me to switch back to full match - I really don't want CR7 spoiling my day.

^^This!

I can't remember which of my saves it was but I had a match recently where I've swapped my full-backs to their 'wrong' side to counter the threat of the opposition's inverted wide players, in theory showing the player onto my FB's strongest foot.

They kept swapping their wide players over and I needed the formation widget to keep an eye on it so I could swap my full-backs back again...and so on...

[MattyWillo10]

Just wanted to drop a quick message, come across this thread this morning on the way into work and haven't been able to do anything since reading it, between reading more posts and trying to develop a new master plan for my new save (I going to try the Leeds job under the mad Italian)

Great job Herne, definitely the best Football Manager thread I've read in a long time, I'll be keeping tabs on this from now on!

[Bitner]

Great read. Certainly i'm trying to draw my new formations on paper before trying them on the game. Sounds like it gives you the right insight of how you want them to work, rather than concluding by the positioning on the pitch and roles.

Cheers,

Bitner

[herne79]

^^This!

I can't remember which of my saves it was but I had a match recently where I've swapped my full-backs to their 'wrong' side to counter the threat of the opposition's inverted wide players, in theory showing the player onto my FB's strongest foot.

They kept swapping their wide players over and I needed the formation widget to keep an eye on it so I could swap my full-backs back again...and so on...

Yeh that opposition formation widget can be really useful. Personally I wouldn't swap my fullbacks around if the opposition wingers swap, but if it works for you then great .

Just wanted to drop a quick message, come across this thread this morning on the way into work and haven't been able to do anything since reading it, between reading more posts and trying to develop a new master plan for my new save (I going to try the Leeds job under the mad Italian)

Great job Herne, definitely the best Football Manager thread I've read in a long time, I'll be keeping tabs on this from now on!

Thanks, glad you liked it.

Great read. Certainly i'm trying to draw my new formations on paper before trying them on the game. Sounds like it gives you the right insight of how you want them to work, rather than concluding by the positioning on the pitch and roles.

Cheers,

Bitner

Good stuff. Planning things out before hand can be really useful.

[herne79]

I haven't done an update here for a little while, but then my recent match away at Olympique de Marseille caught my eye and thought I'd share, as there is something of interest to write about.

Don't Panic!

I can't find it now, but Cleon did an article on this a while ago. All too often, when you go a goal or two down in a match, it can be very tempting to start making changes. "Oh no, my system is failing, must try something else" is something I've done plenty of times before, and I'm sure others have too.

However, unless you are taking notice of what's happening on the pitch, it may not actually be necessary to change anything. And it's that point I'll try to demonstrate by using my recent away match vs OM.

By the 9th minute of this match (remember, I watch the first 10-15 mins of each game), I was 2-0 down. By the 13th minute, I was 3-1 down.

Because I have been watching the action, I'm not panicking. I can see how OM have scored, I can see how my team are playing - and we're actually playing well. We're not being outplayed, we're holding our own, and giving as good as we get. Except scoring . The stats back this up - look how even the match was:

So, why are we 2 goals down (twice) and I'm not panicking?

Well first of all, the most important thing is to see how my team are playing. Are we doing anything dumb? Are OM putting us under pressure? The answer to those questions will determine if I need to make changes - not how many goals are being scored. Look at this screen shot from early in the match, we are in possession:

My attacking right fullback (Chambers) has the ball on the wing in OM's half. Look at all the movement and passing options he has (red dotted arrows): he can make a nice slide rule pass to Ward-Prowse; an inside pass to Tevez; or try a whipped cross into the box for either Kane or Di Maria. He chooses the pass to Ward-Prowse who in turn crosses into the box where the goalie makes a good save from Kane.

Great stuff, I'm happy with this.

Now, OM are playing a typical 4-2-3-1 formation, with AMC/L/R players. I've highlighted them (and the striker) with yellow circles - look how high they are all staying when their team is defending. That's pretty aggressive stuff, but I'm not too concerned as you can see what my defenders are up to. My BWM (Kranevitter) has tucked in to protect my exposed right wing, my two central defenders are well positioned, my BBM (Goretzka) is patrolling the centre, and right at the top is my left fullback covering their right winger. I have no concerns.

"But Herne", I hear you say, "if you aren't concerned, how do you go behind 2-0 and then 3-1 within the first 15 minutes?" Good point - and for that we need to look at their goals.

First goal:

From an OM throw-in, Eysseric receives the ball on the edge of my box. Surrounded by 4 defenders, and partially blocked by his own player, he smacks the ball into the top left corner of goal. Goal of the month contender .

Second goal, and a little pop quiz for you:

OM have cleared the ball long after pressure from us. Dier has intercepted the clearance, but headed it into the path of the advancing Lucas Ocampos (yellow box). Now, we already know that OM's front 4 are fairly aggressive, and Ocampos is one of those 4 players.

So, does Ocampos:

A) Control the ball (First Touch 16, Technique 18), dribble the ball into the box (Dribbling 16) and score?

B) Control the ball, wait for and pass to the overlapping fullback you can see running, who runs deep along the wing and provides a great cross for Ji Dong Won to score?

or

C) Without bothering with such nonsense as controlling the ball, smacks it first time (Vision 13, Passing 12) on the volley 40 yards across the field to Pavon on the opposite wing, who takes the ball in his stride, runs into the box, shot saved but can only push the ball into the path of Ocampos who scores?

The answer is, of course, C). The craziest goal I have ever seen, we're 2-0 down but playing well. Bloody game .

A few minutes later, we pull a goal back (Ward-Prowse cross from the right, Di Maria scores) but 30 seconds later we give away a penalty and before I've sat down it's 3-1. Unbelievable.

But I'm still not tempted to make changes because we're playing well. OM have scored one worldy, a complete one-in-a-million, and a penalty - not because they are outplaying me. It's a fairly even match (we're actually slightly edging it).

Before half time, we pull back the deficit and go into the break level at 3-3. I haven't changed a single thing. After the break it's more of the same, but no more goals, and the match ends in a draw.

I'm a bit disappointed we didn't win because of the type of goals they scored, but on balance it was probably a fair result as they did create some other decent chances.

And that's why it's not always necessary to make changes when you go behind - and why it's so important to understand what is happening on the pitch to help you make the decision.

[Cleon]

This one? http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/419240-Stick-or-Twist-!-Playing-The-Long-Game

Another great update though Herne, it would have been so easy to just panic and make wholesale changes based on the scoreline if you didn't know the context of the how the goals were scored.

[summatsupeer]

Good update, bonus points for Jones!

That's the type of match that causes people to start changing things when they shouldn't or complaining the game has it in for them. Of course sometimes you do need to change things but not just because of the scoreline.

[herne79]

This one? http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/419240-Stick-or-Twist-!-Playing-The-Long-Game

Another great update though Herne, it would have been so easy to just panic and make wholesale changes based on the scoreline if you didn't know the context of the how the goals were scored.

Yeh that's the one, thanks .

And I've highlighted the key word there. Context is so important.

[herne79]

Playing Against Different Formations

The 4-4-2

Carrying on the series I started, in my recent home match against Man City (who lined up with a 4-4-2), I realised I haven't looked at playing against this yet. Further, something happened during the match which is a nice follow up from my Not Panicking piece I wrote earlier.

As usual, I begin by looking at the opposition formation during pre-match to see if I can start to make some assumptions:

The first thing I notice here are the two wingers, Sterling and Yarmolenko. Sterling is right footed but playing on the left. Yarmolenko is left footed but playing on the right. I'm going to assume two things here:

1) They are not going to be playing as "wingers". They'll probably look to be moving in field a bit rather than staying wide and firing in crosses, especially as Toure and Fernandinho in midfield look to be playing fairly deep. The Wide Midfielder role is perhaps being used.

2) AI managers seem to swap their wide players quite a bit during matches. Probably two prime candidates here.

As it turned out I was right. They did swap often during the match and they only attempted 5 crosses all match (compared to my 14). And in terms of sitting narrow? Look at these 2 images - the match is barely 4 minutes old:

#1 Yarmolenko has drifted in off his wing to receive the ball from a central defender. Toure is staying deep and Sterling has also come in field off his wing. There is also not much evidence of overlapping fullbacks. Yarmolenko passes to Sterling.

#2 Instead of taking the ball out wide, as you may expect a "winger" to do, Sterling takes the ball even further in field to the centre circle where he gives it back to Yarmolenko. Toure is still deep and there are still no overlapping fullbacks. Fernandinho has made a run towards the forwards (possibly playing as a BBM), but that is the only runner in evidence.

Now, if Man City want to bring their wingers in field and not have their fullbacks overlapping, that's fine by me - it'll give my wide players lots of space to use.

Or so I thought...

Third minute of the game and I go 1-0 down. But it's a score from a corner, so I'm not going to panic. I can see we are playing well, we've already created chances, and we have good possession. We actually finish the match with 60% possession and work the ball into the box well whilst restricting Man City. These are the shots attempted during the match (I have excluded the goals for now), City's shots are on the left:

But then in the 11th minute, this happens:

Man City are about to take a free kick. It's not being taken quickly, there has been plenty of time for both teams to get into position. But my team have suddenly had a complete brain fade and seem to have forgotten what the word "positioning" means. Kranevitter has decided to become a central defender, rather than doing something about all that space in the red box I have marked. At the same time, Ward-Prowse seems to think that one fullback is no longer sufficient and decides to help form my new back six. Not my usual solid two banks of four.

From the free kick, Fernandinho receives the ball and makes a slick one touch pass to Aguero. Kranevitter is still in no-mans land, and I have no idea what Ward-Prowse thinks he's doing:

Aguero makes an instant through ball to Jovetic, who has run the channel between my DCL and DL, and scores. We're now 2-0 down inside 10 minutes against a very good Man City side.

But I still don't panic. Despite that terrible positioning for their free kick, I don't make any changes. To be quite honest, what changes could I make to rectify that free kick positioning anyway? Nothing - it's an anomaly. We have been playing well, and aside from that awful free kick, we are actually holding our shape.

But for once I actually carry on watching the match without reverting to a highlights mode after 15 mins. We play well, we create the odd chance, keep City at bay and manage to pull a goal back before half time from a corner.

However, we go in at the half losing 2-1. We are suffering from a lack of penetration - we've only had 5 shots in the first half, and now I do need to make some changes.

City have not parked the bus. They are still trying to play, but they are coping pretty well with my relatively low tempo and patient passing game. It's not creativity that I'm lacking, it's tempo and directness. I need to move the ball around faster to get beyond their defensive unit. If I merely change Team Shape to increase creativity (as I tend to do), that won't increase my tempo or help me play in a more direct manner. And that's what I need.

I therefore change Mentality to Control and remove the Shorter Passing TI. I also remove the Slightly Higher defensive line instruction, as Control takes the def line higher anyway.

Our second half attacks now become more dyanmic and we equalise in the 55th minute. I can see City are starting to wilt under the pressure, so I up the Mentality again and change to Attacking.

We score 2 more goals and run out 4-2 winners.

That was probably the most interesting match I've played so far in this save, and it certainly took some figuring out. I may have whizzed through the write up somewhat, but trust me that match took ages to figure out. I've never used the Pause and Rewind buttons so much, or taken so long during half time to try to work out what I should do.

[Jyuan83]

I am very intrigued by your match report against city and I would like to know whether the AI uses PIs on the roles it uses since the wide players seem to swap quite often as per your observation of the match. I see Yarmalenko being higher up than sterling in the match formation so i suppose he would be winger on attack duty while sterling is winger on support? I have always had this belief that AI managers use default roles like what we see in the default formations wholesale and not make any PIs to the roles. it would be interesting for us to crack open how an AI uses player roles and perhaps PIs to get a better understanding of how certain roles work.

[herne79]

I am very intrigued by your match report against city and I would like to know whether the AI uses PIs on the roles it uses since the wide players seem to swap quite often as per your observation of the match. I see Yarmalenko being higher up than sterling in the match formation so i suppose he would be winger on attack duty while sterling is winger on support? I have always had this belief that AI managers use default roles like what we see in the default formations wholesale and not make any PIs to the roles. it would be interesting for us to crack open how an AI uses player roles and perhaps PIs to get a better understanding of how certain roles work.

Knowing exactly what the AI gets up to is the Holy Grail isn't it? We'll never know for certain, but sometimes we can make educated guesses.

In the example you use, certainly the AI is using the swap players PI. However, I don't believe the AI is using the winger role (I've amended my post accordingly to be clearer on that). In my opinion they are probably being played as Wide Midfielders with PIs to Sit Narrower and/or Cut Inside, perhaps even Cross Less Often as well due to the almost complete absence of crosses.

[Cleon]

I am very intrigued by your match report against city and I would like to know whether the AI uses PIs on the roles it uses since the wide players seem to swap quite often as per your observation of the match. I see Yarmalenko being higher up than sterling in the match formation so i suppose he would be winger on attack duty while sterling is winger on support? I have always had this belief that AI managers use default roles like what we see in the default formations wholesale and not make any PIs to the roles. it would be interesting for us to crack open how an AI uses player roles and perhaps PIs to get a better understanding of how certain roles work.

The AI can and does use every tool the user has at their disposal too. So yes they also use PI's.

[sgevolker]

The AI can and does use every tool the user has at their disposal too. So yes they also use PI's.

The only tool the AI can't use is to restart a match

[noikeee]

So, does Ocampos:

A) Control the ball (First Touch 16, Technique 18), dribble the ball into the box (Dribbling 16) and score?

B) Control the ball, wait for and pass to the overlapping fullback you can see running, who runs deep along the wing and provides a great cross for Ji Dong Won to score?

or

C) Without bothering with such nonsense as controlling the ball, smacks it first time (Vision 13, Passing 12) on the volley 40 yards across the field to Pavon on the opposite wing, who takes the ball in his stride, runs into the box, shot saved but can only push the ball into the path of Ocampos who scores?

The answer is, of course, C). The craziest goal I have ever seen, we're 2-0 down but playing well. Bloody game .

I 100% agree with the don't panic mentality, I do much the same as in sometimes changing things when I'm winning (but unhappy with how we're playing), and not changing when losing (but happy). This when I actually pay attention to what's going on, and not mindlessly playing on quick highlights whilst watching TV.

But I'd be wary to dismiss certain goals as freaky or unlucky. What you just described there sounds like a recurring feature of the current ME, with extremely dangerous balls to the far post, and players being as accurate on the volley as they are when they've got time to control the ball. I'd keep an eye to make sure it doesn't happen again as a pattern... Of course, if it happens as a pattern, you've got two choices: change your settings to try to compensate for it, and risk ending up with a compromise that no longer makes sense when a new patch comes out ; or keep things as they are, accept you'll concede frustrating goals (possibly ending with worse results than possible), but be relatively safe in the knowledge your tactic should keep making sense with any new patches or versions of the game. Personally I don't like being frustrated and go for the first option, although this does result in me ending up chasing any ME changes to some extent.

[herne79]

But I'd be wary to dismiss certain goals as freaky or unlucky. What you just described there sounds like a recurring feature of the current ME, with extremely dangerous balls to the far post, and players being as accurate on the volley as they are when they've got time to control the ball. I'd keep an eye to make sure it doesn't happen again as a pattern...

I hear what you're saying, and agree that some crosses can look very dangerous.

However, I'm well into my third season of this save and have other saves going as well. I watch every goal and a lot more of every match besides, and what Ocampos did there was a real one-in-a-million pass. I liken it to Florenzi's goal earlier in the season for Roma in their first Champion's League match against Barcelona.

Plus, even if there is such an ME issue (I don't think there is really, imo it's more to do with how people set things up) my team are far more dangerous at crossing than any AI team and use this to our advantage much better. So whatever the AI can do to me, I'll return the favour 10 times over.

That might sound a little cocky (it's not meant to), but we always have the advantage over the AI.

[Jyuan83]

Anyone who has played against guardiola's bayern 4-1-4-1 will know how deadly the wide players are as the AI constantly swaps and changes the roles and duties according to the match situation. Perhaps could be something in try in our games instead of changing TIs and shouts during a match.

[terryleung]

Hi herne79,

This is really a great thread. I learnt a lot in both this thread and Cleon's "The Art of Possession Football"

Actually based on these two thread, I try to create my own kind of 4-4-2 (4-4-1-1 Asym) and want to get some advice from you guys as well

The tactics I created based on 3 things:

1. possession football

2. 4-4-1-1 Asym like this thread

3. Overall style I want: has creativity and (air) through ball. Player support each others , forward create chances for midfielder and midfielders also can score

Here is the tactics

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4dV68JFiicBSzFnbDhfTVVHakE/view?usp=sharing

Problem I found and role that not very confirmed

1. My complete forward sometimes are still quite selfish. (At least I think he can pass, but he choose to shoot instead)

Also, I tried other roles like DLF and F9, it seems the result is not as good.

Since your thread state the Advanced Forward can work really well with Trequartista, I also try it but think that it may not suit what I want he to do. (I want forward can also create chance for other and whole team work as a closer unit)

2. Choice between CMd and BWMd

I tried both and not easy tell the difference , some how BWMd seems do less risky things like dribbling according to PI. As I more want the CMd can seat back and as well give his chance to create some good through ball sometimes, I decide to use CMd. I think for any role here the duty must be defend, otherwise it will get too close with the Trequartista. However, I still trying to find which one is better suits for my team since you highly recommend it.

3. Wing/WP, or WM/WM?

This is one is real point I am thinking at

Actually, I quite like WM/WM as WM require vision, I think I can assume this kind of player can create good pass. Also WM can be modified by PI. You can ask him cut inside or stay wide. Ask him to do risky pass, cross more... etc.

However, there is a really good winger in my Stuttgart, so I decide to use a winger which would stay wide and for variance , i want to have a player cut inside in another side, so a WP is chosen.

Here I want to ask if I should use Wing/WM instead of Wing/WP because a playmaker is always the player that received a lot of pass which may not be what I want actually. I should use WM can put all PI myself instead?

Actually, I am not very sure what I what to ask apart from this. From try and errors, I try to make it better, but it hits a point that I don't know how to make it better and therefore want some advice from you guys.

I am thinking use DLPd and change Wing/WP to Wing/WM or WM/WM. Just keep thinking

[Miek]

Just read the whole topic and loved it. I'm using 4-4-2 myself in my LLM-save and will try some things out. Keep those updates coming!

[herne79]

Hi herne79,

This is really a great thread. I learnt a lot in both this thread and Cleon's "The Art of Possession Football"

Actually based on these two thread, I try to create my own kind of 4-4-2 (4-4-1-1 Asym) and want to get some advice from you guys as well

The tactics I created based on 3 things:

1. possession football

2. 4-4-1-1 Asym like this thread

3. Overall style I want: has creativity and (air) through ball. Player support each others , forward create chances for midfielder and midfielders also can score

Here is the tactics

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4dV68JFiicBSzFnbDhfTVVHakE/view?usp=sharing

Problem I found and role that not very confirmed

1. My complete forward sometimes are still quite selfish. (At least I think he can pass, but he choose to shoot instead)

Also, I tried other roles like DLF and F9, it seems the result is not as good.

Since your thread state the Advanced Forward can work really well with Trequartista, I also try it but think that it may not suit what I want he to do. (I want forward can also create chance for other and whole team work as a closer unit)

2. Choice between CMd and BWMd

I tried both and not easy tell the difference , some how BWMd seems do less risky things like dribbling according to PI. As I more want the CMd can seat back and as well give his chance to create some good through ball sometimes, I decide to use CMd. I think for any role here the duty must be defend, otherwise it will get too close with the Trequartista. However, I still trying to find which one is better suits for my team since you highly recommend it.

3. Wing/WP, or WM/WM?

This is one is real point I am thinking at

Actually, I quite like WM/WM as WM require vision, I think I can assume this kind of player can create good pass. Also WM can be modified by PI. You can ask him cut inside or stay wide. Ask him to do risky pass, cross more... etc.

However, there is a really good winger in my Stuttgart, so I decide to use a winger which would stay wide and for variance , i want to have a player cut inside in another side, so a WP is chosen.

Here I want to ask if I should use Wing/WM instead of Wing/WP because a playmaker is always the player that received a lot of pass which may not be what I want actually. I should use WM can put all PI myself instead?

Actually, I am not very sure what I what to ask apart from this. From try and errors, I try to make it better, but it hits a point that I don't know how to make it better and therefore want some advice from you guys.

I am thinking use DLPd and change Wing/WP to Wing/WM or WM/WM. Just keep thinking

Sorry, only just saw this. As it's a few days old now, let mw know if you are still looking for help.

Just read the whole topic and loved it. I'm using 4-4-2 myself in my LLM-save and will try some things out. Keep those updates coming!

Thanks and good luck. I probably won't be doing any further updates on this particular system, as I've pretty much run out of things to write about.

However, I'm starting to work on a different 4-4-2 system for my 4th season at the Thames Ironworks which I may write about later.

[Cummins]

However, I'm starting to work on a different 4-4-2 system for my 4th season at the Thames Ironworks which I may write about later.

Please be narrow diamond... please be narrow diamond... I'm running a diamond at present and trying to decide what is effective with the AMC/ST/ST is causing me no end of headaches haha!

[herne79]

Please be narrow diamond... please be narrow diamond... I'm running a diamond at present and trying to decide what is effective with the AMC/ST/ST is causing me no end of headaches haha!

lol afraid not.

However, if I were looking at a narrow diamond I'd probably go with either a 4132 or 4312 and shape the central MC to play as either a "DMC" or "AMC" to give you that "diamond" on the pitch. I'd expect a flat 3 across the MC line to be stronger defensively but still be able to provide effective support going forwards.

[terryleung]

Sorry, only just saw this. As it's a few days old now, let mw know if you are still looking for help.

If you have time and give me some feedback, it is always good. However, if you don't have time, it is ok. (I do understand that we all have things to do in our real world )

Actually I am trying to port this style(mainly all TI) back into 4-2-1-3 system to see how it is perform differently.

It seems to me that it perform a bit better than 442 due to the 3 midfielder, but I am still experimenting.

[Cummins]

lol afraid not.

However, if I were looking at a narrow diamond I'd probably go with either a 4132 or 4312 and shape the central MC to play as either a "DMC" or "AMC" to give you that "diamond" on the pitch. I'd expect a flat 3 across the MC line to be stronger defensively but still be able to provide effective support going forwards.

Sounds reasonable, I assume you think it would be stronger due to the MC's being a little wider? I've been playing around with my diamond for ages and I just cant decide what roles I should be taking for MC/AMC/STs. I've had reasonable success with DM Anchor, 2x CM-Support, 1 x AP-S, 1xDLF-S and 1xAF or Poacher but the two CM and AP-s stand on top of each other an awful lot which heavily cuts out the AMC involvement in the game.

If looking at 4-1-3-2 I assume something like Anchormoan, CM-A in centre and sides being something supportive like CM-S, BBM or BWM-S? Not really sure on play makers (I'm playing low tempo possession football for reference).

4-3-1-2 being CM-D, BBMx2, AMC?(Never know how to play an AMC...).