Kicked two times at the same save, third time's a charm?

[patrikholm]

Hello all tactic geniuses!

I've got fired two times att the same save now. I've been hired as Lens manager now and it feels like my last chance at this save now. I started with Málaga. With Málaga I used this tactic:

- A tactic that should fit Málaga and it was good at FM15. A bunch of team instructions and some player instructions aswell. The board wanted me to finish mid-table but I struggled in the bottom and got fired.

Then I went to Bari and used this tactic:

- I did the formation/roles after looking at the strengths of my current squad. I also did well in the transfer window, or at least I thought so...Didn't use many team instructions or any player instructions at all because I got a little lost with Málaga. Ended up in a total disaster. Media prediction was 8th and I had like 12 points after 15 games and got kicked out...

Now I've got a new chance, this time with Lens in Ligue 2, France. They are struggling to avoid releagation and are just two points above the relegation zone with 14 games to go. This time I want to play with two forwards since it hasn't worked at all for me with just one striker. It's just a shame that i don't have so many good strikers in the team...My squad:

After some help I'm here at the moment:

Platje best roles:: False Nine, Trequartista, Poacher

Spano best roles: Target man, Poacher, Advanced forward

- Should I play with one Target and one Poacher?

Cyprien best rolesa: Deep lying playmaker, Advanced playmaker, Roaming playmaker

Valdivia best roles: Ball winning midfielder, Box to box midfielder, Roaming playmaker

Olsen best roles: Deep lying playmaker, Advanced playmaker, Central midfielder

N'daw best roles: Ball winning midfielder, Defensive midfielder, Anchor man

- Advanced playmaker, Box to box, Central midfielder and Ball winning midifielder?

My fullbacks both wants to play as limited full backs. Should i go with that? My goal is to avoid relegation and I won't have any wingers to help my full backs in the defence. Or should I use them as wing backs instead because of the same reason (no wingers in the attack?)

Do you have any other suggestions? Can't buy anyone until the season is over. I'm above the wage budget aswell. Just one DL and one ML/AML. Just one good striker and one decent striker...

[vasilli07]

I think you should look at the players attributes to decide their roles.

If you going to play with a 4-1-3-2, your fullbacks will need to provide the width. If not, opposition can just stop your attack by crowding the middle.

[herne79]

Those 3 formations you posted are just, formations. We don't know what your complete tactics are - what mentality, team shape, Team Instructions and Player Instructions are you using? Without full details, no one will be able to help you. It'll also be useful if you write about what you are seeing on the pitch and how you concede goals.

I think you are also looking too hard at which roles "best" suit your players simply by looking at what the game thinks is their "best" role, without considering how those roles will all fit together in a cohesive tactic.

[patrikholm]

Those 3 formations you posted are just, formations. We don't know what your complete tactics are - what mentality, team shape, Team Instructions and Player Instructions are you using? Without full details, no one will be able to help you. It'll also be useful if you write about what you are seeing on the pitch and how you concede goals.

I think you are also looking too hard at which roles "best" suit your players simply by looking at what the game thinks is their "best" role, without considering how those roles will all fit together in a cohesive tactic.

With my Málaga-tactic I really don't know how i conceded goals. I thought that avoiding relegation would be just fine so I was kicked before I made any adjustment to the tactic. My team instructions was something like this:

- Player instructions was shoot less and dribble less on some players. Control and fluid at home and counter/standard normal/structured away. This worked very well att FM15, had most possession in the league even when playing with bottom predicted teams. Conceding goals when the opponents managed to pull off a through ball behind my defense but with quick defenders it worked very well. As said I didn't fully pay attention to what went wrong in the defense because the sacking came as a shock. Forward it was just rubbish overall, especially the striker didn't score goals att all an the possession was bad.

With Bari i didn't use any instructions at all, why? Because i won a fantasydraft online and a create-a-club season on another save just using a basic formation without any instructions so I thought I would try that in this save aswell but didn't work at all I guess. I thought I would have a little more time than just 15 matches also. Was playing control at home and standard/counter away. Mostly with flexible team shape. Conceding goals mostly because of balls behind my centre backs, especially in the air.

Well I really try to understand which roles that fits togheter and therefore I was asking if you think advanced playmaker, box to box, central midfielder and ball winning midifielder on the midfield would work. Because if I choose the best roles for every player it would have been false nine and target man upfront (and I think someone should be more attacking). And on the midfield it would be two deep lying playmakers and two ball winning midfielders and it would be a gap between midfield and the attackers. My question about the full backs was maybe a little noobish but I've never played without wingers so...

[Siron]

like herne said, those are just formations, but i'll take a random guess at them

1. No matter what your Team Instructions are, your midfield ist crowded with Playmakers. There are diferent opinions to that, so i'll just tell you min: "Way too many". Also the link-up play is not given, unless you play longball, but in that case you don't need 2 defensive playmakers.

2. Looks better on first sight, but the roles/duties also drift the positions too far apart, which can easily turn into a transition problem when losing/gaining possession.

3. Absolutely no wing play and a target man forcing longballs... i don't know what to think here.

IMO what you need is a gameplan to begin with. What do you want your team to do (except winning)? Counter play/Possession, Counterpressing/luring, Compact/Wide, Short/Direct, Slow/Fast?

In Long-Term every team can play everything, in Short-Term deal with what you have and make it work.

BUT

a Formation is NOT a Game-Winner, the use of a Formation is

[Siron]

With my Málaga-tactic I really don't know how i conceded goals. I thought that avoiding relegation would be just fine so I was kicked before I made any adjustment to the tactic. My team instructions was something like this:

First thing i see here is "Prevent short GK Distribution + Play out of Defence + Retaining Possession".

Possession starts at the back.

"Offside Trap + a CD on Cover"

Can cause the Defender to Drop the line and pickup the Offside you are trying to set up

"Pass into Space + Run at Defence + Retain Possession"

Will cause more Dribbles, more risky passes and possible loss of Possession

Also IMO those are way too many Instructions, i personally tend to go with 3-7 TI's and personalized PI's if necessary, depending on what I'm trying to make my Team do

[patrikholm]

Ok I looked a little closer at the attributes and in the attack Spano should play as an advanced forward and Platje should be best as a deep lying forward or trequartista. DLF and AF should maybe work? In the midfield Cyprien really should play advanced playmaker and Valdivias work rate 17, stamina 16, natural fitness 14 should be good for a box-to-box. Only 8 off the ball and finishing though...N'daw is a beast as ball winning midfielder with approx 15 in every attribute. Olsen isn't good at all really. Should probably use someone else instead. In my head Platje can come deep and get the ball and Spano is more attacking near the box. Cyprien handles the transportation from midfield to the attackers. Valdivia support him from behind sometimes. N'daw handle the defensive part. Therefore I put the last one att central midfielder - automatic so he could lurk around between N'daw and the other two. But not really sure on how to use the last MC.

Album with the attackers Platje, Spano - N'daw, Valdivia and Cyprien with highlighted attributes and Olsen/Moore/Bourigeaud/Chah/Gbamin: http://imgur.com/a/i4AAf

[herne79]

That's an awful lot of team instructions, and (no offence) I'm not sure you understand what they all do. As RTH always says, if you don't understand what it does, don't use it.

As you have now taken over a relegation threatened team, I can only imagine a lot of the teams you will now be facing will fancy their chances and come at you in a fairly attacking manner. I would therefore whole-heartedly advise you to stop what you are doing in game and take some time out to read through and understand Cleon's "The Art of Counter Attacking" thread found here http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/444680-The-Art-of-Counter-Attacking.

[patrikholm]

About the Málaga-tactic:

I'm with you guys that it's too many team instructions but it work so damn well att FM15 (overachieving every season in Spain) and was almost only scoring beautiful goals and the playmakers really did a great work. It also makes sense when wathing the gameplay in FM15. But I guess it's just too many playmakers on FM16 since it tends to be harder to defend (and I need more defending midfielders). The CD-cover + offside trap clearly is a random thing but it is actually a tweak I did after some seasons on FM15 and it stopped almost all my behind-defender-goals problems. But I guess they have shut down that a bit on FM16 aswell. I'm a little frustrated over all this because I really like many playmakers + tiki-taka goals in the offense and in the defence play with offside trap but a really quick DC that can clean up any catastrophe since that was my role when I played football IRL. Almost was a sweeper at my time but with positioning/anticipation to advance up and make the opponents go offside when the time was right.

Wellwell I will read Cleons guide before playing again, thank you for helping me!

[Siron]

^Just as a little side note for you (again my own opinion)

When setting up a tactic, there are some tiny basics i made for myself:

Possession = Structured, Counter-Control, Closing Down, Slow, Retain Possession, Many Support Duties

Counter = Fluid, Flexible-Attacking, normal-fast, 3-5 Attack Duties, Disciplined gameplay

Destruction (very Defensive) = Very Fluid, Counter-Flexible, fast, 2 Attack Duties, Sitting Back

[patrikholm]

It went totally ****. Did read Cleons thread and thought I understood. Looked at the first game almost in full and it looked ok. A lot of my shots were blocked though so I tested to play with more attacking wing backs / play wider. Well those game i conceded 2-3 goals the first 30 minutes. So I went back to the basic. Mostly conceded on balls behind my centre backs, especially crosses. And well, 14+15 and 18+19 in heading and jumping on my centre backs and 7-8 players back in my box/just outside. For me the game is broken so I guess I will take a time out until someone on the forums find a basic 4-2-3-1 that works the same way that the spanish la liga-teams often play. Because right now the equation for me is the more time I tweak = worse results.

[Siron]

Shots getting blocked is not necessarely bad. Atleast they get into the Position of shooting. Also take into account, that a tactic needs to get accomplished, unless its something similar the team used to do before.

I wouldn't take a time out yet, just start a new save and work on some tactics from what you read in Cleons threads. Make them work there and then come back with a working one to your other save.

[Overmars]

Small suggestion: Start a new save in the streamlined mode. You can make tactical adjustments without waiting for your team to learn the new tactics. That way you can figure out what works much more quickly and gain confidence in your tactical decision making.

[mmitch19]

It went totally ****. Did read Cleons thread and thought I understood. Looked at the first game almost in full and it looked ok. A lot of my shots were blocked though so I tested to play with more attacking wing backs / play wider. Well those game i conceded 2-3 goals the first 30 minutes. So I went back to the basic. Mostly conceded on balls behind my centre backs, especially crosses. And well, 14+15 and 18+19 in heading and jumping on my centre backs and 7-8 players back in my box/just outside. For me the game is broken so I guess I will take a time out until someone on the forums find a basic 4-2-3-1 that works the same way that the spanish la liga-teams often play. Because right now the equation for me is the more time I tweak = worse results.

I've not been able to get a 4231 working in counter, myAM R/L won't drop deep enough for a compact defensive shape no matter what roles/PI's you use. I switched to a 4141 and adjusted the wide players roles to get the attacking shape I wanted which has helped a lot. Maybe you can find a 42211 variant that does the same for you?

[Hansaplast]

Some remarks to your first formation:

A False 9 is usually not utilised with an player in the central AM position because both would play in the same space.

What aggravates the problem is that both roles are looking for someone to feed and unfortunately there is no-one to be found in the box.

My advice would be to play an AF(A) in the striker role and an AM(A) in the AMC role.

If you try to do something more unusual then the striker can be an DF(S) and a Shadow Striker in the AMC spot.