The Art of Counter Attacking

[westy8chimp]

4 minutes ago, jc577 said:

Great post Westy, love the use of fluid to reduce space between the lines of a 442. Interesting that you selected ‘much deeper defensive line’, do you find it difficult to get out at times? Also, what’s your av. possession like?

Very low possesion... Even if i have the ball say from a goal kick im asking the team to play into space (low percentage) and more direct (making it even trickier) 

I was relying purely on the pace bournemouth posses in the likea of fraser, ibe, wilson, king, defoe. 

When we trigger the automatic counters... The goals actually come from the cm/bbm... Arter and stefan johansen... Both have decent spread of attributes, good teamwork and work rate. 

In non-counter mode defoe pretty lethal. You can see in the 1-0 win vs spurs the really deep line plus fluidity doesnt stop the striker from receiving long balls in the box. If hes come deep in defensive transition it means the opponents are committed in my half, so if we get turnover we go straight to warp speed anyway and they burst forward as a unit. 

[jc577]

28 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Very low possesion... Even if i have the ball say from a goal kick im asking the team to play into space (low percentage) and more direct (making it even trickier) 

I was relying purely on the pace bournemouth posses in the likea of fraser, ibe, wilson, king, defoe. 

When we trigger the automatic counters... The goals actually come from the cm/bbm... Arter and stefan johansen... Both have decent spread of attributes, good teamwork and work rate. 

In non-counter mode defoe pretty lethal. You can see in the 1-0 win vs spurs the really deep line plus fluidity doesnt stop the striker from receiving long balls in the box. If hes come deep in defensive transition it means the opponents are committed in my half, so if we get turnover we go straight to warp speed anyway and they burst forward as a unit. 

I see, so in essence you’re a counter-attacking team that plays direct football when not on the counter? Bournemouth’s pace is lethal 

I’m not surprised the cm’s more often than not score goals on AI triggered counter’s, that’s something I experienced as well. I actually tried to ‘force’ these counters, using two strikers that dropped deep, held up the ball and waited for the on-rushing runners (wide midfielders + SV-A). Didn’t really work though, but in hindsight my d-line was too high so we didn’t properly commit the opposition into our half. The SV does sound like a role perfect for that kind of system.

[Jean0987654321]

16 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

Big time. Here is mine with Bournemouth.

Set up on the counter, very deep... and fluid (because I'm not using anchor man, I want to encourage my mids and strikers to really get involved defensively). That's how I will trigger AI counter.

For my own outlets, I have shadow striker and a pacey (ish) CF looking to push the opposition line... I've asked the team to pass into space and be direct (try turn the opposition round) with self generated counter (no focus on setting shape or keeping the ball). Support roles in midfield so they stay in shape defensively, but winger role and BBM role should be progressive when in possession.

Defensively, we get 10 men deep in own half here is a 10 vs 6... but the opponent is quite committed, so potential to trigger AI-counter.

And here is our attack from a non-AI-counter move

And this is more of an AI-counter

 

Not sure if Sean Dyche or...

[Armistice]

17 hours ago, Cleon said:

Because he'd have been more cavalier than the rest of the players. A box to box midfielder will support the striker just as fine and gets forward a lot too. But he also helps out defensively much better than a CM attack. I didn't want one player who was more rogue than the others, I want them to work as a unit, this included moving up and down the pitch together. A CM attack complicates this as he's more focused on advancing than anything. If he's really advanced and the rest of the side are really deep, we'd struggle to get the ball to him consistently and regular unless we went for long/direct balls.

So because you used the roles & duties in a counter-attacking tactic for when you're not counter-attacking, I believe you must picture in your head how you're going to attack when you're not countering, right? So that means you must also make use of some principles you used in the Art of Attacking thread?

 

And one more thing, I noticed last night that my wide midfielders are not defending the wings I mean most of the times, my back four stay compact, but if a winger/attacking fullback gets near the box, my fullback goes and try to close him down so my defensive shape is disrupted. Any ideas why that happens? My setup is similar to yours as I said.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Armistice

[Cleon]

26 minutes ago, Armistice said:

So because you used the roles & duties in a counter-attacking tactic for when you're not counter-attacking, I believe you must picture in your head how you're going to attack when you're not countering, right? So that means you must also make use of some principles you used in the Art of Attacking thread?

 

And one more thing, I noticed last night that my wide midfielders are not defending the wings I mean most of the times, my back four stay compact, but if a winger/attacking fullback gets near the box, my fullback goes and try to close him down so my defensive shape is disrupted. Any ideas why that happens? My setup is similar to yours as I said.

1 - Not really no. Although everything is link and crosses over at some stage. But I didn't specifically use any of those principles because that strategy was based on using a higher mentalist structure. So the principles are different as highlighted in both threads.

2 - PPM's? A player issue? Your asking me a question that only you really have access to try and understand it. I can't see your game, I can't see what positioning is like in the build up etc. So I would be guessing why if I gave you a specific answer which isn't really helpful to you. It makes little difference that you've set up like me, you could set up the exact same and there'd be big difference due to player differences, PPM's and us both wanting different types of counter attacks and different things for when we have the ball and how we use it.

I'd watch the clips back by using the analysis tab to see why your WM's don't defend the wings though. It's really strange as they should defend them by default. I find it hard to believe they don't defend the wings majority of the time. So there must be a reason why it doesn't happen that you're perhaps missing. 

[Experienced Defender]

7 hours ago, Armistice said:

I noticed last night that my wide midfielders are not defending the wings I mean most of the times, my back four stay compact, but if a winger/attacking fullback gets near the box, my fullback goes and try to close him down so my defensive shape is disrupted. Any ideas why that happens?

I cannot tell you for sure, and @Cleon will certainly know better than me, but if your WMs are set to Wingers/Inverted Wingers with Attack duty, I guess that might be a reason (especially if you use a more structured shape). Or maybe they simply have low workrate and teamwork? 

As for your FB disrupting the def shape by pressing OP wide attacking players, it could be that you asked him to close down more or your OI for OP wingers/FBs is set to Close Down Always? Or maybe your FB has a high rating for Aggression and is therefore naturally more inclined to try to press and win the ball more than asked to? Again, I'm just guessing and cannot tell you more without better insight into your overall tactic and players.

[Cleon]

35 minutes ago, Analog said:

Tried a setup similar to Cleon's.  Seems that in FM18 Counter defends deeper than in previous versions (I bought it only recently)?  I found that too often I had too many players inside my own box, and clearances were going just outside the area to unmarked opposition midfielders.  Using 4-4-1-1 at least helps somewhat to sometimes have an outlet to receive clearances, but can I get some suggestions for dealing with the fact that while we defend well, clearances still get continually recycled to the opposition? 

I didn't expect to win the match anyway, so I tried a simple 4-1-4-1 counter against Arsenal in the CL and lost 1-0 to a set piece.  So we can defend, but I only had one shot and none on target because I'm never recovering clearances.  I just played counter flexible with no TI's.

 

 --DF(S)--

--WM(S) -- --CM(S)-- --AP(S)-- --WM(S)--

--A(D)--

--WB(S)--CD(D)--CD(D)--FB(S)--

 

edit:  I'll also add that I've tried using some attack duties as well for my wide players.  I also tried AP(A) to see if he would defend higher up, but I haven't had luck getting this to work.  Like I mentioned, it's not the defending, it's the recovering of the ball to actually be able to start a counterattack that I'm struggling with.  Any suggestions?

Counter attacking is the same on FM18 as it was on 13,14,15,16,17 and defends no deeper.

Your issues about not recovering the ball well, you don't really use any roles that recover the ball or win it back. So it's hardly surprising.  Have a look at the settings of the roles you use and it's all a bit passive. If it's not winning the ball back like you want, use a more aggressive/pro active role.

Also is everyone is deep and you have no forward outlet, then it will be hard to keep possession from clearances. I thought I spoke about this earlier in the thread about having someone you can clear the ball to and having some kind of outlet. I had players in the side who had attack minded PPM's, so it wasn't much of an issue for me. 

[Experienced Defender]

@Analog Here is what I would try with 4-1-4-1 on a counter mentality, but only provided I have the right players in the right positions, roles and duties (in other words, look carefully at your players' attributes to see if they can perform the roles effectively):

 

DLF(s)

 

WM(s/aut)    BTBM   BWM(d)    IW(s)

DM(d)

WB(d)   DCB(d)   DCB(d)    FB(s)

 

I'd go with Structured. Other TIs (as well as PIs) would depend on whom we play against, is it home or away game and of course what I want my overall playing style to look like. In some cases I might want to use one of the CMs (or DM) as a playmaker for example. But what I would always look for is balance.

[SmileFaceGamer]

Right so I took over at Leicester looking to attempt to create a good counter tactic based off two solid banks of four, pace and trickery on the wings, a midfielder running in from the 10 role and an out and out Poacher to latch on to through balls and generally focus on scoring goals. So using this I tried to create a tactic and I ended up with this:

———————GK-D———————

—WB-S——CD-D—CD-D——FB-S—

—IW-S——CM-D—BBM-S——W-A—

———————AM-A———————

———————-P-A————————

Mentality: Counter

shape: flexible

TI’s: More direct passing, much higher tempo, clear ball to flanks

Ive tried to do what I think would increase the chances of us launching a counter attack, yet we don’t seem to launch forward violently like I hoped. When we’ve played opposition of our equal in pre season I’ve noticed that when we do win the ball in the defensive phase we’re not immediately thinking attack but going sideways and it’s leading to a lot of missed chances. I understand there is an algorithm that triggers a counter attack and I understand that on counter, attacking and overload that number decreases, but by how much. I’m tempted to try this tactic on attacking except with a lowered D-Line, narrower width and lower closing down to create the defensive shape. Does that increase counter attacks? Please give me some advice

and so we can clear this up, it’s not the players. Here’s my team (from left to right):

Schmeichal, Chilwell Maguire Soyounacu Perreria, Gray Silva Ibbora Sisto, Maddison, Iheanatcho/Vardy

[jc577]

9 hours ago, Analog said:

I'm confused by some of your roles and duties. You've changed your AP from support to attack in order for him to provide attacking support earlier in transition, but this isn't the nature of the role. He's a playmaker outright, so will by and large look to come deep to receive the ball and then dribble with it, so it's unlikely he will be as advanced as you want him. Also, who is he going to play risky passes to? Realistically the only player that will benefit will be the WM-A, as risky passes = through balls into space, and he's the only player attacking space. Crossfield balls are difficult to play, so the consistency of this will depend entirely on the quality of your playmaker. I think this is why it's more prudent to use a playmaker in the DM strata in a counter system, as they can start attacks from deep and allow to the other four midfielders to bomb forward in support. I'm a tad confused why you've used wingbacks as opposed to fullbacks.

And dude... the number of changes you made in one game  Rome wasn't built in a day, you know  I'm very guilty of this myself, but you've got to give the system at least three to four games before making changes. 

[SmileFaceGamer]

55 minutes ago, Analog said:

The engine triggers aggressive counters when the opposition commits too many players into your own half and you win the ball back.  Are you closing them down too quickly before that can happen?  Also, setting width affects play when you have the ball.  

That might be something. I’ll see if we can sit back more and have a look

[Cleon]

Quote

a midfielder running in from the 10 role and an out and out Poacher to latch on to through balls and generally focus on scoring goals

Who exactly in the set up is providing those through balls? You haven't used any roles that do it frequently. So how exactly is the poacher going to get a supply of through balls?

[Cleon]

19 hours ago, Analog said:

Ok, been busy with life stuff, but finally played a few games and now we have a game away to Lyon.  (In hindsight I realize I added a lot here, but was just writing it and taking notes as I was playing the match on full highlights.)  They are 3rd place and we are three points behind at the moment.   I went ahead and prepared "a few" screens and whatnot for the discussion as I didn't expect this to work but we can use my failures to learn from , even though the principles are very straightforward, it's still tricky to pull it off.  So first thing, here's the basic pre-match analytics.  Some first thoughts are that I'm hoping their use of a WB could be of some benefit to our strategy, but in some of the other reports the info said they tend to play a balanced game.  I can see though they are likely to play control, but they're also playing structured so it looks like their DLP(D) and FB may stay back more to frustrate us, but with counter and structured, shouldn't their attacking players be even more attacking?  That's what we want in theory.

Here's a quick look at a starting eleven decision I made based on a player comparison for my two AP options.  Fontaine is slightly more attack minded.  I should also mention that my squad isn't anywhere near challenging the likes of PSG or Monaco yet, and most of my players have good qualities, but also some real downsides in their game. 

I went with Lukic as my AP as he can at least offer some defensive help since Fontaine doesn't really have that in his bag.  He's also getting on at this point and lacks strength, bravery, and physicals, etc.  (He's a club legend and has only ever played for Le Havre so I offered him a contract to hopefully retire at the club.  Probably making the mistake of being too sentimental over the player, but that's how I like to play even if it costs me sometimes.)  These are my LM, RM and DF.  The LM is told to cut inside with the ball, and the RM is told to dribble more and cross more often.

So I have some decent pace going forward, but still some holes in teamwork and decisions.  With the engine triggering counterattacks hopefully these will be mitigated to some degree.  Elsewhere, my anchor is not particularly quick, but he's strong and good in the air.  My LWB is fairly solid across the board, decentish pace and can cross well enough.   My RWB is solid defensively, but he doesn't get involved in attack and isn't really suited for it.  In defense I have two CB's who are pretty solid all around, but my GK is terrible with distribution.  I'm not really asking him to trigger any counters though so he keeps it simple to minimize mistakes and unnecessarily losing possession.

 

1st Half

Ok well, I am happy to say that we triggered an AI counter literally from Lyon's first attack, and it only took 45 seconds for that to happen, so good signs I guess.  Their RW crossed from an advanced position, we cleared the ball to my MR, who then sent a ball across for the pacey LM.  He was eventually nearly caught by their defenders, and passed back to the AP arriving late who took a long shot from just outside the area that went over the bar.  We should have done better, but I was just happy we had a counter chance so early.

As far as how we defended, I'd be curious to hear if anything stands out from these images.  You can see in the first image that when they advance my LM is helping deeper in our half, while the BBM pushes up to close down the player on the ball, similar to what Cleon showed earlier in the thread.  The 2nd image shows our eventual positioning as he is crossing the ball and it's cleared.  I have 7 players inside my own area, and what looks like a lone DF to pick up the clearance, but it didn't actually play out that way.  I think this is where you have helped me out with suggesting that I make adjustments.  I just added some attacking duties at ML and AP, that's all.

 

The two selected players immediately turned their shoulders after the header and pounced on the clearance which went perfectly into space for Keanu.  Lukic is AP(A), Keanu is WM(S).  Surprisingly, despite what the pre-match data suggested, it was actually their RB who was advanced.  Their LWB was staying back to help in defense.  Maybe he's a WB(D) and the RB is FB(A)?  This left my fastest player open down the left flank to receive an early cross.  BTW, yes that is my DF that close to goal between their two central midfielders.    Maybe DF(S) would be a better option here... since their three defenders can just focus on my LM.  I think I'm seeing it now as I think through it but I miss stuff like this sometimes during the match.

Ok, so I don't want to get any crazier with images, so I'll just say that I noticed the AP and BBM were closing down too close to the half-way line.  I think the BBM is doing enough to disrupt the shape, so I switched the AP back to support and put the DF on a support duty instead of defend.  This helped to some degree, but I also noticed that when the opposition advanced far enough my players would group up to close down the ball, which in theory can work really well, but also was leaving defensive situations I wasn't comfortable with elsewhere on the pitch.  I switched to structured and this helped even more, in particular the fullbacks defended with much more discipline.  In midfield the BBM tended to be the one to step forward much more, and when we did have the ball we kept possession better.  I noticed that either one or the other midfielder would close down sooner, but not both at the same time.

 

2nd Half

The first half ended 0-0 and defensively was a success.  Lyon had 8 shots, but only 1 on target.   They also had 6 fouls and two yellow cards due to us playing a slow patient game and drawing fouls.  I didn't feel like I was really threatening to counter them though.  We pressed higher up and they made bad passes, but I felt like maybe we should defend deeper.  If nothing has changed this year, using a defend mentality should also trigger counters sooner, right?  So I started the 2nd half with defensive and put the AP back on attack.  I suppose a 0-0 would be a good result, but I wanted to try and make this work.  

I saw more long balls forward to the DF, and early in the 2nd half Lyon had a player sent off.  So... being that I'm writing this as the game is being played, that's a bit of a bummer.  I went ahead and stuck with defensive structured though and figured if they did still over commit, then we have another man advantage for the counter.  The long balls forward were too fast though, so I put the DF back on defend so that he would be closer to midfield when receiving the pass that early.  He was suddenly like a target man being a magnet for everyone.

 

FM'd

Ok, so I tried to win the match in the end by playing more attacking.  I lost to a corner.  How...?  My LM passed backwards to the LB who wasn't looking, so the ball went out for a corner.  They scored at 91:30 off of that corner.    So... from 0-0 to a loss.  I should have just stuck it out with defensive/counter and in all likelihood that pass would never have happened.  FM'd again... we also missed 3 chances from within the 6yd box, so in the end I guess the theories panned out, at least defensively.  My DF finished the day with a 6.3...  We should have won 3-1, but instead lost to a mental mistake?  I don't even know what to say about this one.

 

Sorry for the long but disappointing read.    Hopefully it's still appropriate for the discussion.  It definitely helped me to pick up on things I wouldn't have previously just by writing down what I was seeing, also pausing and rewinding the match at different points.  Would still appreciate some feedback if people have some ideas.  I think in the end they weren't as attacking as I expected, and we were winning the ball too high up the pitch.  By the time I made the change to defensive they'd had a man sent off and ruined the counter approach for us.

Personally I think you give the AI far too much respect and concentrate on them much more than your own strategy. I concentrate on my own side and pay little attention to the AI and how they might set up. I base everything on what happens in game. That';s why I call my tactic the base tactic. As I never change it before hand or adapt it until a game starts and I see what is happening in game. I'm not saying you should do this but you seem to have started worrying what the AI might do and how.

Quote

I went with Lukic as my AP as he can at least offer some defensive help since Fontaine doesn't really have that in his bag.

Surely if you wanted defensive help you'd select a different role entirely? Not only this but you already use a very defensive shape and have been defensive with all the roles too. You'll struggle to break out if everyone is defensive minded in a naturally defensive shape.

Quote

So I have some decent pace going forward, but still some holes in teamwork and decisions.  With the engine triggering counterattacks hopefully these will be mitigated to some degree.  Elsewhere, my anchor is not particularly quick, but he's strong and good in the air.  My LWB is fairly solid across the board, decentish pace and can cross well enough.   My RWB is solid defensively, but he doesn't get involved in attack and isn't really suited for it.  In defense I have two CB's who are pretty solid all around, but my GK is terrible with distribution.  I'm not really asking him to trigger any counters though so he keeps it simple to minimize mistakes and unnecessarily losing possession.

You seem a bit fixated on isolating attributes and concentrating on what the player lacks, which is fine. But you need to remember it's the full skillset of a player what counts and not the odd attribute lacking, even if its an important attribute. He can make up for it with the rest of his skill set.

Your analysis is good in hindsight and you've noticed a few things that if you reacted too in game earlier or more you likely would have won the game imo. Things like spotting the DF might be better on a support duty so three opposition players don't have an easy time against your LM. It's something I've spoke about a lot in threads on how I use a striker role that occupies opposition defenders at times so it free's up my other players.

I think you're on the right track with your thinking and you are questioning what happens and why. That's the sort of stuff people normally struggle with spotting but you've got a good eye for it. Honestly its basically trial and error now and just changing things when you spot an issue and see how it reacts. 

[SmileFaceGamer]

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

Who exactly in the set up is providing those through balls? You haven't used any roles that do it frequently. So how exactly is the poacher going to get a supply of through balls?

I played a downloaded tactic on last years FM which was counter attacking and from memory, our passes tended to be long to the halfway line before any one of the front four put it through to any other of the front four. I may try Maddison as an AP-A but I wanted to avoid playmakers as from experiance they tend to slow down counter attacks through consistently being fed the ball

[Cleon]

35 minutes ago, SmileFaceGamer said:

I played a downloaded tactic on last years FM which was counter attacking and from memory, our passes tended to be long to the halfway line before any one of the front four put it through to any other of the front four. I may try Maddison as an AP-A but I wanted to avoid playmakers as from experiance they tend to slow down counter attacks through consistently being fed the ball

Think you're missing the point though. You only get long passes/through balls if the role has those settings. None of the roles you've selected do. Roles only tend to do whatever they're set up to do. You can see who in the team is going to provide those type of balls by looking at the settings attached to the role. You can't say for example I want through balls and expect the team to do it, if no-one in the side has those type of settings.

[Cleon]

Quote

Yeah, that's how I've always played.  I think it's helped me in defending sometimes, but not always going forward.  I guess where I don't quite understand how you play is that when you say you react to what you see in game, that's what I feel like I'm doing, but yeah I suppose what I'm doing is more reactive to the opposition than reacting to how I'm playing. 

I think you seem to be questioning yourself a lot which is excellent. But if you see something isn't working or know you need to change something, just do it. What that change is or can be will vary all the time, there's no correct way of doing and will be a few different ways of doing stuff. But ultimately doing something is better than doing nothing even if it turns out to be the wrong change. Not all changes will work anyway.

[SmileFaceGamer]

9 hours ago, Cleon said:

Think you're missing the point though. You only get long passes/through balls if the role has those settings. None of the roles you've selected do. Roles only tend to do whatever they're set up to do. You can see who in the team is going to provide those type of balls by looking at the settings attached to the role. You can't say for example I want through balls and expect the team to do it, if no-one in the side has those type of settings.

Thanks for that. I’ll try sticking more risky passes on. I’ve also added pass into space to try and get the whole team in general to try those low percentage passes

[Experienced Defender]

28 minutes ago, Analog said:

I have even experimented playing on contain to trigger the ME counters more easily

The ME is not going to trigger counter-attacks more easily with Contain because it's the mentality with almost no attacking ambition, purely defending. Unless you set roles, duties and relevant TIs and PIs in a way that might incite some attempt at counter-attacking. 

38 minutes ago, Analog said:

I'm wondering if the formation is the issue?  Maybe 4-1-4-1 is a better option to keep the AMC player ready to trigger the attacks?

There's no AMC in 4-1-4-1. I guess you meant 4-4-1-1?

As for your TIs: no need for early crosses, (much) higher tempo and play (much) wider. Normal tempo is quite OK, as well as normal width. If your striker and side midfielders are fast and good Off The Ball, I'd go with low crosses (or whipped).

I'd change your DM's role from DLP to either DM (defend duty) or Anchor.

Can you post a screenshot of your striker's profile to see if there is a better role for him than DF? Maybe DLF on support, or F9?

I could hardly give you some better piece of advice without full knowledge of your players, but here is an example of how I would try to achieve what you want with a highly structured 4-1-4-1:

DLFs (or F9)

 

IWs     BWMs     MEZa     WMs

DM (or ACM)

Fbs      CD     DCB      IWBd

SWKd

Mentality - counter or standard, depending on how tough the game (OP) is. I'd also use the Roam From Positions TI. Pass Into Space could be also considered, but be careful because it's a bit risky instruction. 

[Robson 07]

1 hour ago, Analog said:

My current setup:



 

A bit lost buddy.  Step us through how you envisage this one performing?

[Cleon]

14 hours ago, Analog said:

Bit frustrated as I'm still unable to get the 4-1-4-1 to *really* work in this style.  I've tried different approaches to setting up for countering, but my (frustrated) estimation is that this is a style of play that is only effective in very specific situations.  I am not generating counters, whether on counter or defensive mentality.  I have even experimented playing on contain to trigger the ME counters more easily, but what I've found is that even when you tell your players to get stuck in, the tackling is too passive on defensive and contain.  My midfielders follow their players into the penalty area and therefore I never have players to pick up the 2nd ball and start a counter.  I can drop my DF to a defend duty, but he'll be in my half as the lone player to receive an out ball.

I'm wondering if the formation is the issue?  Maybe 4-1-4-1 is a better option to keep the AMC player ready to trigger the attacks?  But to me that is far too one-dimensional and if that player is marked out of the game, etc. then it all falls apart.  I'm still looking for suggestions.  I have an EL game away to Benfica coming up and I'd like to get this to work, but at this point it feels like if I play defensively I actually have a stronger chance of losing, while if I play my pressing game I have at least a chance to win.  For me it's more about understanding this style and getting it to work than just winning the game, so I'm willing to take a loss if the style actually works as I'd like.

Here's the pre-match.  One thing that I think is already problematic is their formation, Rashidi's "Portuguese 4-3-3".  Two DM's can potentially make life difficult for us playing trying to play off the counter, but I want to reiterate that the main thing I'm struggling with is recovering the ball on clearances.  I have even tried setting every midfielder to an attack duty, they still defend and track players too deep.  I've tried highly structured hoping they would hold their midfield positions better, still no luck though.  The pre-match says Benfica are slight favorites.  Maybe one of the issues here that the teams are too evenly matched when I try to play this style?  Thanks for any advice.  

My current setup:

 

 

You aren't going to trigger many under the hood counter attacks with those roles at all. The IW, Winger and Mez are all more advanced and quite aggressive roles. So you lose the numbers advantage based on positions alone. However you can generate plenty of user created counter attacks. But one question, who is supposed to provide them in this set up? The DLP? and that's it really. It's a lot of responsibility for one man. Also add in the fact of your TI's, you've asked everyone to be more direct in passing so they'll be passing longer than they do normally. But that doesn't mean they are good/accurate passes. You've also asked players to hit crosses early to a striker who drops deep and doesn't really play in the box. You're asking players to prioritise hitting the ball early to the forward. What use is this and how is that supposed to start intelligent counters?

And then there's the tempo, why much higher encouraging players to play more riskier and faster? People think this increases accuracy/chance that you trigger counters but again how? It's not really logical. You want people to assess each scenario and not force them to do one specific thing constantly. You want more counter attacks then stop forcing playing to a play a specific way. More direct passing, higher tempo and hit early crosses is the easiest way to get the ball from the back to the front. However that doesn't equal it being a good strategy for counters. As the other players in midfield will be bypassed and playing catch up. If you want more counters you want more options and varied ways of playing instead of pigeonholing them to do a specific thing. And one final thing, you need the team to move as a whole or at least the majority of players, or you'll always be out numbered. By passing the midfield for example with hitting early crosses means those players who get passed by and likely not going to be involved with the move.

How a look at the mentality and instructions the role you use have. Then look at the TI's you've used and it should start to become clearer on what your actual issues are.

[Robson 07]

7 hours ago, Analog said:

@Robson 07 I want to sit back and defend, win the ball back, and ideally I want the MEZ and two wide players to break forward immediately.  I want the other players to get them the ball quickly and let them work together during counter moves to try and score as the opponent is on the back foot, just generic counterattacking stuff really.

When using defensive mentality I can see that the defenders play longer passes as I'd like, but I was aware of that.  The problem is that I can't seem to get the attacking players to break to be on the end of those longer passes, and they all tend to go to the DF, who is not really good as a target man/DLF style player.  

I think @Cleon succinctly hits a few nails head on.

I'm not so keen on those defensive players hitting long passes from the off.  If you haven't had chance to get set yourselves and into your attacking formation I think you'll concede possession.  If 'play out of defence' is one step too far (personally I don't think it is) then maybe use PIs to shorten defenders passing length.  Also I'm not sure that the defensive forward as a lone striker is the ideal outlet for counter attacks.  He has a lot of ground to cover defensively and no partner to link with so he goes alone or waits for support.  Tough job you've given him.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Robson 07

[Cleon]

10 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

I think @Cleon succinctly hits a few nails head on.

I'm not so keen on those defensive players hitting long passes from the off.  If you haven't had chance to get set yourselves and into your attacking formation I think you'll concede possession.  If 'play out of defence' is one step too far (personally I don't think it is) then maybe use PIs to shorten defenders passing length.  Also I'm not sure that the defensive forward as a lone striker is the ideal outlet for counter attacks.  He has a lot of ground to cover defensively and no partner to link with so he goes alone or waits for support.  Tough job you've given him.

The winger role doesn't suit a system that has a striker who plays outside the box too and no-one else initially in the box. Where are the crosses expected to go?

[Experienced Defender]

12 hours ago, Analog said:

The idea though is that the style is entirely based upon counter attacks, really.  So getting an early cross in might be low percentage, but we don't get hit on the break either.  Also the idea here is that I have good pace in my ST and LW so I'm trying to get them breaking and getting onto those early crosses.  I'm playing wider to encourage more use of the wings.

It doesn't work that way. Early crosses are more useful when you play on a higher mentality (control or attack) and need to score ASAP using a tall and strong TM, who would receive those crosses and either try to score himself or distribute the ball to nearby teammates. Even if you want to use EC for Counter, you should have more players up front (either 2 strikers or someone in AMC/R/L position(s)). And if you want to encourage more use of the wings, you don't necessarily have to play wider. Instead, you can select the Clear To Flanks TI.

 

12 hours ago, Analog said:

I want the DM to get the ball and spray it forward, that's the reason for the role.  

I understand what you want, but PMers, and especially DLPers, tend to slow play down a bit. Of course, if the player doesn't have a PPM "Dwells on ball" or "Dictates Tempo", then he may serve the purpose. Even better if he "Tries Killer Balls" or "Long Range Passes". But generally speaking, the APM role is better suited for counter-attacking play than DLP. If you want a player in DM position for this style of play, a Regista would be a better option, but the question is whether you have the right player for the role.

 

12 hours ago, Analog said:

I want the use of the DF so that he is constantly causing problems for their defenders and giving them something to think about when they have the ball.  Again, what I'm going for is not a tactic where we have the ball.  It's entirely about hitting them on the break.  If he's putting pressure on their passes forward then ideally there'd be more of a likelihood of an interception that could lead to a counter opportunity.

Okay, but if you want to trigger counter-attacks, then you need to draw the OP into your half so that they live as much space behind for you to exploit, especially when you play with a lone striker with little immediate support behind him. If you used two strikers, having one of them as DF would not be a bad idea (or if you use a SS in the AMC position). Or, if you still want the lone striker to press the OP defenders all the time, you can use DLF and tell him to CD Much More via his PIs. Anyway, do whatever you believe is the best and good luck 

[Cleon]

Quote

So my thinking was that players on attack duty are going to run forward more immediately when I win the ball back.

Attack duty players will naturally start higher up the pitch too. Mentality alters the base starting positions a player starts with. So support = deeper and attack = higher.

Quote

I was thinking I'd have the two wide players breaking forward to help the DF, then the Mez maybe coming a little later.  I wanted ideally 4 players attacking forward at pace if everything was perfectly set in motion.  

Okay, so I think I see the issue here. You don't want to create a counter attacking system. It seems like you want to play a more direct game and attack with a certain number of players at a specific time. This is different to counter attacking in the general sense of how under the hood counters are triggered. 

Quote

I guess my issue is not understanding the roles that work best in a pure counter system.  So do I want attacking roles or support roles then through the midfield?  

Ideally you need players deeper,  maybe expect for one or two at the maximum for a pure counter attacking system. If not then players will be too advanced to ever trigger a counter.  If you have too many players forward too early then you end up disjointed. Instead of focusing on how many support/attacking duties you need you should simplify things and focus on the role you use and what it actually does by looking at the settings it comes with. Then ask yourself if the role suits what you want and understand exactly what kind of stuff he will be doing. This is easy because you can see the settings he has. 

Quote

Maybe you can help me understand how this will work better with my system.  My Mez is a playmaker type, my LW is a pace player with great dribbling and movement, my RW is a fairly balanced, decent player really overall.

If your player is fast and on an attack duty then chances are the rest of the side will struggle to keep up with him. It's great that you have a fast player but if his role is aggressive then how does he get support if the rest of the side are slower than him? They're always playing catch up. Although your Mez is a playmaker type he is still a Mez. He will still use his attributes though like I highlighted in the David Brooks article, where I used a creative player for the Advanced Forward role. But you still need to understand how his playmaking skills make him play the role differently. So, what does he offer you different than you're average Mez?

Quote

Ok, so pace up top and down the left side of the pitch.  How do I set up my roles here to make the most of the LW and ST?

In this type of system or in general? The thing is, a pure counter system like you asked about earlier is about the team as a collective and making the most of the team. If you want more help about the LW and ST though I suggest you read the 4231 Deep article I did, as that focuses on the LW and ST and making them score goals.

Quote

Lol, well you obviously have a point... I guess I'm not thinking about intelligent counters and maybe that's my problem.  Here's my dilemma though, how do I provide to the wide players and ST with anyone but the DLP if my midfielders are never anywhere near getting the ball?

First I'd address why your midfielders aren't never near the ball. When you watch games/clips back what's the general theme or why they aren't connecting? Is it the mentality thing I mentioned earlier in my reply or something else? Only you have the answers as to why something is happening. I'm unable to see your games, so I rely on you telling me

Quote

Clearances from inside my own box bypass those players and go straight out to the opposition

What's the players positioning like when this happens? Also check out the settings of these players who are doing the clearances and it might tell you something.............

Quote

It's the most frustrating thing to see players off to the left or right wing who could get on the end of a header but it seems

Do these players have roles that would allow for this to happen or do they have roles that stay out wide or do a specific thing? 

Quote

but it seemsbuilt in that defenders clear long instead of clearing in a more thought out tactful way

Well it's not, that's not how it works. Remember you've asked the players to play more direct than usual in the TI's, maybe its a by product of this? You also use a playmaker in the centre which attracts the ball. So this could be another reason why it's hit longer bypassing certain players in certain positions because you're funnelling play in specific way based on the roles you use and the TI's you've added. When using TI's you need a specific reason for using them and need to understand how these settings change the roles.

[Robson 07]

15 minutes ago, Analog said:

This 4-1-4-1 works more like a possession tactic than a counter tactic, imo.

Exactly.  I'm not fully up to speed on all the recent posts in here @Analog but I just saw the last formation you posted, counted 7 outfield support roles and 3 defensive ones.  Just looked like a possession system especially on counter mentality.  Why not just set up a manual, orthodox counterattack tactic instead of relying on AI generated counters?

Edited September 21, 2018 by Robson 07

[westy8chimp]

1 hour ago, Analog said:

Because what was posted in the thread intrigued me and I wanted to see if I could get it to work.  4-4-2 has always been the best counter tactic for me, at least trying to set it up to play like I described.  One striker defending deep, one looking to break, etc.  The point of the support duties though is that if you use attack duties the midfield becomes disjointed when the attack duties close down more.  The idea is to defend as a unit, then break as a unit.  I tried to switch this up as you saw earlier, but Cleon was right it's too disjointed.  So the only option I can see is to rely on defending very deep in order to try and drag their back line into your half, then you might have a chance at triggering the counter.  I've failed with this one so far.    

4141 is a good counter tactic though in most scenarios. Of course, if you come up against a structured defence the opportunities will be limited. If you strive for a tactic that will work against every opposition, you will need to use at least all 3 slots and even then make tweaks specific to the opponent setup and player matchups.

With the 4141, you still should have had a solid base vs PSG and outnumbered them 9 vs 6 (at worst) when they came into your half... so the idea would be to frustrate them into going more attacking.

I'm just back from holiday and thinking if/what final save I can do on FM18 ... before holiday I was having great success with Bournemouth using 4141 and 4411 counters. Too easy though with a really low rep team as every team attacks and can be countered at ease... so thinking ill start a save as a mid table team.

Counter only lasts so long though, If I'm Leicester and get top 4/6 first season then counter isn't going to be easy the following year. So I may just have one last save with a big team ripping it up 442 or possession based  

e: or @herne79 could post a challenge #5 (who the hell stops at 4!)

Edited September 21, 2018 by westy8chimp

[Jommelb]

Wow, this topic always resurfaces after some time. That's great, inspired me to start again after lots of frustration 1 or 2 years ago:)
I'm trying a 4-1-4-1, that's not very different from Cleons in the opening post. Some changes to make it fit my team. I'm expected to end 19th in the dutch second division, so counter should work. Defending goes pretty ok, we're not easy to break down, but we don't score... 
There are 2 options to score goals:

1. Triggered counter attacks
The counters get triggered a few times during almost any match so that's ok. But often they die very fast. I've spotted two critical things for the counter to work:
a. the first pass after winning it should be forward and reach the striker (this goes wrong very often cause defenders often just hoof it to places on the field where my striker isn't even close, tried the PI shorter passing on them, but it doesn't help much so far. I think they don't see it as a pass but as a clearance). I don't know how to fix this problem. Tried different roles on the striker. DF seems to have the highest success rate, because the striker is nearby and doesn't have the 2 CB's close to him.
b. The striker needs to hold the ball until support arrives and has to give a good pass that doesn't slow the counter. (Goes wrong very often, but that might be a quality issue. The striker often passes it too far back or not in space for a midfielder, or just loses the ball in a dribble).

2. Goals from 'normal' build-up play
Cleon says he also scores from quite a lot from normal, slow build-up play. The problem I face here is that we indeed have possession and are able to get the ball into the opponents half. But I don't create quality chances. When we reach the 18yard box the opponent is organised and because and there's not a lot of movement from my players to get in dangerous positions. So in the end one of the players is trying a shot from distance. Maybe this happens because of the many support duties. But if I use more attacking duties, players get more aggressive and there's less chance to trigger the counterattacks. 

[KI Heynckes]

I simmed half a season of 18/19 with Fulham, using something 95% similar to the tactic Cleon posted. Problem is most games against teams on the same level end 0-0 and against the big team they lose every game. So what does he, that Cleon can easily beat a team that's two divisions better with this tactic? What does he do that he's so much better than that? Could somebody maybe guess? 

[herne79]

37 minutes ago, KI Heynckes said:

Could somebody maybe guess? 

1) Using the same (or 95% similar) tactic to Cleon misses the point of the thread.  The thread is to discuss the principles involved in this form of counter attacking to help people develop their own systems, not simply copy it.  Cleon merely provides an example of how he set things up in regards to his team and players available.

2) Simming (or holidaying) doesn't really tell you much as you lose control of what happens during matches.  Further, how do you know if you are actually creating counter attacking opportunities during matches - and thus how well your system is performing - if you aren't watching them?

3) Cleon doesn't "easily" beat teams two divisions higher, but he will adapt to situations during matches, perhaps with a small tactical tweak, a role adjustment here and there or perhaps a simple substitution.  This links back into 2) above, watching matches and being in control.  Always be ready to adapt if you need to.

[KI Heynckes]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb herne79:

1) Using the same (or 95% similar) tactic to Cleon misses the point of the thread.  The thread is to discuss the principles involved in this form of counter attacking to help people develop their own systems, not simply copy it.  Cleon merely provides an example of how he set things up in regards to his team and players available.

2) Simming (or holidaying) doesn't really tell you much as you lose control of what happens during matches.  Further, how do you know if you are actually creating counter attacking opportunities during matches - and thus how well your system is performing - if you aren't watching them?

3) Cleon doesn't "easily" beat teams two divisions higher, but he will adapt to situations during matches, perhaps with a small tactical tweak, a role adjustment here and there or perhaps a simple substitution.  This links back into 2) above, watching matches and being in control.  Always be ready to adapt if you need to.

But that's not the point of the thread? I see that your points are valid, but this thread isn't called "how to take a average tactic and make it unbeatable with in-game adjustments", so I'd expected that building a tactic based on the principles and holidaying would deliever more than 29 points and staying up via Goal Difference. I did this because I tried to implicate a tactic based on the principles in my "real" Fulham save and the first two matches were a 0-5 at Stamford Bridge and a 1-4 against Everton. And the result is pretty devastating. Especially as it seems that his "fetish" to only use Support duties really causes problems to score goals.

[herne79]

9 hours ago, KI Heynckes said:

But that's not the point of the thread?

Yes, it is.

This thread is not about "copy or build a tactic, go on holiday and win".  It's about "this is how counter attacks are triggered in the Match Engine so here are some basic principles of how to encourage that behaviour".  And you need to watch matches in order to see if that behaviour is working or not - and if not, do something about it.

9 hours ago, KI Heynckes said:

Especially as it seems that his "fetish" to only use Support duties really causes problems to score goals.

I'm afraid this one sentence shows you haven't understood some of the principles being discussed.  The choice of duty has been made for a reason, not just because Cleon likes support duties.  And if you are finding support duties are causing you problems to score goals, then adapt.  But you won't be able to see where the problem lies if you holiday through the season.

[KI Heynckes]

Cleon says he didn't change anything besides the striker role. So it isn't. If I follow the rules of this I should get a siccesful tactic I thought at least, but neither in my real safe nor in this simulation it's the case.

[Cleon]

32 minutes ago, KI Heynckes said:

Cleon says he didn't change anything besides the striker role. So it isn't. If I follow the rules of this I should get a siccesful tactic I thought at least, but neither in my real safe nor in this simulation it's the case.

Herne is correct, you are wrong. The whole idea is about showing you how counter attack works, it's then on you to go about setting up counter attacking systems that suit what you want and not what I did. I didn't post a tactic as such. I posted the principles and fundamentals of how they worked on FM.

Just because I don't change a role doesn't mean I don't bring players on who offer something different in the role. I could change mentality and be more aggressive/less aggressive. I might tweak the instructions, I might add PI's and so on. It all depens on how the game is being played out.

I wrote about the things I do here

https://teaandbusquets.com/blog/plan-b-c-everything

[KI Heynckes]

vor 24 Minuten schrieb Cleon:

Herne is correct, you are wrong. The whole idea is about showing you how counter attack works, it's then on you to go about setting up counter attacking systems that suit what you want and not what I did. I didn't post a tactic as such. I posted the principles and fundamentals of how they worked on FM.

Just because I don't change a role doesn't mean I don't bring players on who offer something different in the role. I could change mentality and be more aggressive/less aggressive. I might tweak the instructions, I might add PI's and so on. It all depens on how the game is being played out.

I wrote about the things I do here

https://teaandbusquets.com/blog/plan-b-c-everything

Where am I wrong? That this Thread is about counter attacking and not about how to take a bad tactic and make some in game adjustments and suddenly it's unbeatable? I just wanted to create a solid overachieving tactic based on these principles and it's basically impossible it seems. So rather help someone than throwing me under the bus, just because it just doesn't work for me.

Edited December 31, 2018 by KI Heynckes

[herne79]

1 hour ago, KI Heynckes said:

Where am I wrong? That this Thread is about counter attacking and not about how to take a bad tactic and make some in game adjustments and suddenly it's unbeatable? I just wanted to create a solid overachieving tactic based on these principles and it's basically impossible it seems. So rather help someone than throwing me under the bus, just because it just doesn't work for me.

You asked someone to make some guesses as to what you are doing differently to Cleon.  Both myself and now Cleon have told you.  It's not impossible to follow the principles here, but you are making it more difficult for yourself if all you do is copy a tactic which is not suited to your team and then go on holiday.

Nobody is throwing you under a bus, you just haven't fully understood what this thread is about.  If you'd like specific help with your system, you'll need to create a new thread, post the full detail of your tactic (preferably screenshots), what specific issues you are having with it and someone may be able to offer you advice.

[KI Heynckes]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb herne79:

You asked someone to make some guesses as to what you are doing differently to Cleon.  Both myself and now Cleon have told you.  It's not impossible to follow the principles here, but you are making it more difficult for yourself if all you do is copy a tactic which is not suited to your team and then go on holiday.

Nobody is throwing you under a bus, you just haven't fully understood what this thread is about.  If you'd like specific help with your system, you'll need to create a new thread, post the full detail of your tactic (preferably screenshots), what specific issues you are having with it and someone may be able to offer you advice.

I didn't copy it, I played Sessegnon as a WB on DL for example and some other tweaks to fit the team. If you score 17 goals in 38 matches something can't be right, Cleon handily beats Premier League teams with his League 1 side with a SIMILAR tactic. Also people on this forum seem to contradict themselves, when I posted my first tactic someone said "you have a AP, but for which player does he create, the OML and ST who are on support duties?" indicating this can't work without them, now Cleon says Attack duties are unnecessary.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, KI Heynckes said:

Where am I wrong? That this Thread is about counter attacking and not about how to take a bad tactic and make some in game adjustments and suddenly it's unbeatable? I just wanted to create a solid overachieving tactic based on these principles and it's basically impossible it seems. So rather help someone than throwing me under the bus, just because it just doesn't work for me.

There are numerous ways to play counter attacking (or any other style of) football successfully, and this Cleon's is just one of them. Different teams (players) will behave differently (even) when they use an entirely identical tactic. And even one single team will need certain tweaks to the tactic from match to match, depending on the type of the opposition. For example, in FM18 I created a nice counterattack-based tactic that worked perfectly for me in my Spurs save against some opponents, but against others it was quite ineffective, simply because those teams' tactics were perfectly set to defend successfully against my style, so watching the match I realized where the problem lied and made adjustments to the tactic in an attempt to overcome it. After all, maybe your team simply isn't suitable for counter-attacking football of any kind with the players you currently have at your disposal (I cannot know if that's the case, just taking that as a possibility).

[Boydo]

Just want to thank Cleon, I was really struggling away from home as Wolves before remembering this thread. I was winning comfortably at home with a custom gegenpressing tactic, but was the league's whipping boy away.

After creating this tactic:

 

I was able to get an unexpected away win at Spurs (two counters and a free-kick).

 

Edit: Just followed the Spurs match up with the below away at Liverpool!

 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Boydo

[jackane24]

Ok I got bored of the 4231 in its traditional format as I wanted to play a more counter attacking-esque style of play. Relies on staying deepish, keeping space between their defenders and GK, very fast flairy good passers on the wings, a very pacey striker who can also hold up the ball and a work horse beast in central midfield.

The goals come from anywhere from the front 4. You'll think the left winger will score and then all of a sudden the right winger scores, or you think the striker will score but the CM-A buries it. It's just beastly beautiful fast flowing football, I love it. 

I have to credit Cleon and Rashidi for helping inspire how to express it in FM terms.

I was thinking of posting this tactic for a while but I just switched off 'be more expressive' and it resulted in a 7-0 home win vs Man Utd, with some really gorgeous football, and a perfect representation of what I was looking to create.

I don't seem to be able to upload the highlights for some reason, I'll keep trying.

What I love most about the tactic is that it doesn't require large amounts of possession. Look at some of the results from below, I often have less than 45% possession but my attacks just carve them apart. I absolutely love the screenshot at the bottom, 45% possession but 39 shots with 22 on target! Lol! That was a game fielding a lot of back-up players and an earlier version of the tactic, hence high long shots.

Relies mostly on pace with the 4 attacking-most players, but plenty of decisions + teamwork needed. I'd like to start experimenting with 'looks for pass rather than shot' and see if I can turn that into a positive PPM for me rather than a negative one.

PPMs are vital, obviously. Rashidi suggests using wingers that have the PPM cuts inside trait and I think that will be the way I go. I often find myself wanting the IF-S's to get forward when counters start but they stay frustratingly static sometimes, maybe the W-S role will give them the extra attacking motivation. Just need to get the right players sorted out, always looking to upgrade.

Edited April 13, 2019 by jackane24

[johnnyyakuza78]

@jackane24 I like the look of your tactic. It does look like a Counter tactic in the sense of it being more Klopp counter than Jose counter. How deep is deepish, because it looks like with an attacking mentality your LOE and LOD would be pretty high.

[jackane24]

Well both lines are kept on standard, which is what I meant by deepish.

[Duke313]

On 26/03/2019 at 18:02, Boydo said:

Just want to thank Cleon, I was really struggling away from home as Wolves before remembering this thread. I was winning comfortably at home with a custom gegenpressing tactic, but was the league's whipping boy away.

After creating this tactic:

 

I was able to get an unexpected away win at Spurs (two counters and a free-kick).

 

Edit: Just followed the Spurs match up with the below away at Liverpool!

 

Wouldn’t mind giving this a try in FM22 to see if it works.

Any player instructions/opposition instructions?

[Boydo]

8 hours ago, Duke313 said:

Wouldn’t mind giving this a try in FM22 to see if it works.

Any player instructions/opposition instructions?

No opposition instructions or PIs - let me know how you get on!

[haffaz77]

Nice Thread but obviously the pictures on the starting Post are gone. Would love to take a look at those

[Cleon]

1 hour ago, haffaz77 said:

Nice Thread but obviously the pictures on the starting Post are gone. Would love to take a look at those

There you go

https://docs.google.com/document/d/12MLuV4T-0ljqhFSVvgq0wLiMIEjGxgskJqQfLTYEkSw/edit?usp=sharing

[Tilling]

On 08/06/2022 at 14:52, Cleon said:

There you go

https://docs.google.com/document/d/12MLuV4T-0ljqhFSVvgq0wLiMIEjGxgskJqQfLTYEkSw/edit?usp=sharing

Do you happen to have this for your Defensive football work? Really interested in making the 3-4-3 work which I believe is what you used - would like to try and make a Conte style system with similar principles

[Cleon]

8 hours ago, Tilling said:

Do you happen to have this for your Defensive football work? Really interested in making the 3-4-3 work which I believe is what you used - would like to try and make a Conte style system with similar principles

I do.

Part One - https://docs.google.com/document/d/10-plyakd-vO_0IyjV7X3LDE9XoIbecNQos-Ac6KhwdA/edit?usp=sharing

Part Two - https://docs.google.com/document/d/17hKuLNndtWHqNcmP466haPmSIQGzG--lhH0XPpffQDA/edit?usp=sharing

Part Three - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qr6uE05H9_wVkg2y-Glo7DKL_iOXtTuEmIWSCwT28FI/edit?usp=sharing

Part Four - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z6JuKdVpYSBUPdnGU4mnTCDWHLCAz-r7UdjDC9FSoHE/edit?usp=sharing

 

[gpassosbh]

Hello @Cleon,

please can you share your old Art of Possession files you have?

Thanks,