Counter-Attacking Devastation in Football Manager 2016

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Inspired by Arsenal's recent success counter-attacking to devastating effect and with the release of the Football Manager Beta, I decided to have a go myself and I have been absolutely delighted with the results, so decided to share.

Two important disclaimers

1. I am not interested in copying the current Arsenal team.
   
2. The counter-attacking system is my secondary system. My primary system is an aggressive pressing, 4-3-3 similar to that discussed in the Universality thread last year
   

A quick overview of Plan A - Possession focused, 4-3-3 - NOT Counter-Attacking

Playing with a side like Arsenal, I do not want to play counter-attacking football the majority of the time. Most of the times I will be playing sides who are lower-ranked than me, thus more likely to sit deep themselves so I need to control the game myself.

A few notes about the system:

• Very high defensive line and pressing
  Simple back 4 plus holding midfielder
  Wingbacks provide the width
  Midfield offers a huge amount of creativity
  Attacking trident stretches the defence, offers movement, areal threat and pace in behind
  

So - when do I counter-attack?

• Primarily, away from home vs higher reputation sides
  Sometimes, at home vs high reputation, or aggressive sides
  Occasionally, when protecting a lead
  

The Counter Attacking System

The Formation

Lots of people don't think of 4-4-2 as a strong option for a counter attacking set up but - in my opinion - it is perfect.

4-4-2 allows you two solid banks of four, whilst maintaining an attacking presence up front.

Mentality & Shape

As you may expect, we switch to a Counter style and I use a Flexible team shape due to the make up of the midfield.

The Defensive Line

You'll notice that in comparison to my 4-3-3, the defensive line is far more conservative. Firstly, the whole team plays much deeper, inviting the opposition forward. Attacking wing-backs are now supporting full-backs. The objective for these players is to remain solid, and get the ball forward quickly, when the attack is on.

The Midfield Unit

The main reason for picking 4-4-2 over any other formation was the defensive capability of the midfield, two banks of four and more cover on the flanks than I get with a 4-3-3.

The midfield is a flat 4 - as with the 4-3-3 - I use a MC(D) as a holder and a deep-lying playmaker. I still also use an advanced playmaker, however Ozil is now stationed wide on the left. I can't seem to generate an average position map but Ozil, Cazorla and Coq create a midfield triangle which is useful for possession. On the right, I use Sanchez as a classic right winger. Sanchez is responsible for supporting the fullback in defence and joining Walcott and Giroud in attack.

It's fair to say that none of Ozil, Cazorla or Sanchez are defensively minded players so Coquelin is responsible for a mountain of defensive work. The shape of the 4-4-2 does help keep them in useful defensive positions.

In transition, I have Cazorla as a deep-lying playmaker as an immediate outlet for the defence when the ball is turned over. He has Walcott, Giroud or Sanchez as attacking options to launch the counter attack, or Ozil as a passing option if that's not on.

Ozil is slightly more advanced than Cazorla as a wide playmaker (attack). Ozil has mountains of space against most opposition. Particularly sides where the fullback is exposed. A common outcome is the full back rusing to Ozil, leaving space for Walcott and then Ozil threads a ball. Walcott is then either in on goal or has Giroud and Sanchez as options to his right.

The Attack

Giroud offers power and areal threat, Walcott and Sanchez offer pace and movement. The combination is a lethal attack.

Giroud is generally more of a transition player, holding the ball up whilst Walcott and Sanchez run in space either side of him. Giroud becomes more useful when the defence is already set.

The results?

Well, we won the league comfortably but that was primarily the 4-3-3. Saying that, victories at Old Trafford and Stamford Bridge certainly helped.

Result at Old Trafford..

Result at Stamford Bridge..

Result at home to Man City..

Season's top performers..

Where we really benefited from the Counter Attacking System was in the latter stages of the Champions League.

Quarter Final vs Real Madrid

Semi Final vs Bayern

Final vs Altetico

As you can see, it's worked very well for me. I'm quite happily to sit deep and let the opposition have the ball. We remain solid and then we multiple playmakers with multiple attacking options. Lots of movement. So far it's been very effective.

I wonder if anyone else is enjoying similar success with counter attacking systems?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

I wondered if anyone could recommend a website to upload PKM files? Might be interesting to share a few games files to elaborate on how this works.

[craiigman]

This is impressive, do you mind showing the team instructions and if you used any player instructions?

[gooner4ever]

A very nice OP and congratulations on your success!

Since I'm still playing FM2015 and won't be upgrading any time soon, do you mind if I ask...

1. You seem to be using Flexible team shape for your Plan A (dominance). Why did you make this change from Very Fluid?

2. Have you tried your counter-attacking system on FM2015?

Thanks!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Team Instructions

Play out of Defence

Pass into Space

Be More Expressive

In the 4-3-3 - Much Higher Defensive Line and Pressing

Player Instructions

AF(A) Move into Channels

MC(D) Close down much less

Also, in the 4-3-3 both Inside Forwards sit narrower.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

A very nice OP and congratulations on your success!

Since I'm still playing FM2015 and won't be upgrading any time soon, do you mind if I ask...

1. You seem to be using Flexible team shape for your Plan A (dominance). Why did you make this change from Very Fluid?

2. Have you tried your counter-attacking system on FM2015?

Thanks!

I switched from Very Fluid to Flexible because of the makeup of my midfield. Wilshere and Ramsey both spent most of the season on the side-lines and, whilst Cazorla and Ozil are excellent players, they're not 'complete' players. The same for Coquelin.

Flexible allows me to use both Cazorla and Ozil as playmakers and Coquelin as defensive cover for them.

For very fluid I need midfielders who can create & press. I will be experimenting with Very Fluid next season with Ramsey and Wilshere fit again. I am also retraining Ozil to play deeper.

Actually, very limited counter attack on FM2015. I see no reason why it wouldn't work though. Bear in mind Coquelin and Bellerin have been significantly upgraded. It's also easier to play AMs in midfield hence why Ozil and Cazorla where so effective.

[Roy Race 9]

wow there are some great results there mate

I am going to go back to 4-4-2 with my United save too fed up with the variations of just 1 up top call me old fashioned but I love the partnership that 2 strikers bring ...and basically your 4-2-3-1/ 4-3-3 etc just ends up as a glorified 4-5-1 which is so negative

well done on this looks very much like what I will be using ....but I will be binning mata and a couple more to get some genuine pace in on the flanks

are you going to share this as a download by any chance

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

To be honest, I prefer avoid uploading. I am more interested in discussions with people trying similar things than people using the exact same tactic. Also, I wouldn't want someone using my exact roles and blaming me when it doesn't fit their squad!!

As much as it pains me to say, Man Utd do have an interesting squad. Van Gaal has created a very complete squad with lots of options. The Memphis / Martial / Rooney attack has serious potential IMO. Still couldn't bring myself to actually manage them though

[Roy Race 9]

To be honest, I prefer avoid uploading. I am more interested in discussions with people trying similar things than people using the exact same tactic. Also, I wouldn't want someone using my exact roles and blaming me when it doesn't fit their squad!!

As much as it pains me to say, Man Utd do have an interesting squad. Van Gaal has created a very complete squad with lots of options. The Memphis / Martial / Rooney attack has serious potential IMO. Still couldn't bring myself to actually manage them though

same with me with the old ARSE mate;) even tho the rivalry is still there got to admit Arsene is my current favourite manager he plays the right way great entertainment and runs the club perfectly

got to say their squad is great (amazed I managed to sign Theo and the Ox in last save FM15 for very little ...combined 40m, doubt that will happen again tho:()

will be using a variation of this 4-4-2 and will try to sign as many English players as possible...so targets will be Kane/Theo/Stones/Barkley/Ward Prowse/Butland/ will prove difficult but managed to get 4 of those after 2 seasons last time:D

[macca72]

I'm on a bit of a mission this year to re-create the Leeds team of 1989-1992, primarily due to the soul crushing nature of what we're enduring today.

I say that because the set-up in terms of player types / role distribution is going to be similar to what you have in your counter tactic, a couple of notable differences that I would like your view on..

1. Did you experiment with an attack duty in the back 4? It would seem the WP(a) role is taylor made for a rampaging full back

2. Giroud clearly had a great season, did you try having him as a more static role? I'd love to make a TM(a) work, but I don't like the launching of long balls, I want more of a target poacher

3. What was Alexis' play style? I want to try and create someone who attacks the box from deep / wide, but also crosses and puts in a shift defensively.

Cheers, good work.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

I'm on a bit of a mission this year to re-create the Leeds team of 1989-1992, primarily due to the soul crushing nature of what we're enduring today.

I say that because the set-up in terms of player types / role distribution is going to be similar to what you have in your counter tactic, a couple of notable differences that I would like your view on..

1. Did you experiment with an attack duty in the back 4? It would seem the WP(a) role is taylor made for a rampaging full back

2. Giroud clearly had a great season, did you try having him as a more static role? I'd love to make a TM(a) work, but I don't like the launching of long balls, I want more of a target poacher

3. What was Alexis' play style? I want to try and create someone who attacks the box from deep / wide, but also crosses and puts in a shift defensively.

Cheers, good work.

1. Did you experiment with an attack duty in the back 4? It would seem the WP(a) role is taylor made for a rampaging full back

I would certainly do that against weaker opposition. I really play this tight back-4 when I have my back to the wall.. Real Madrid, Bayern, CL Final, Utd at Old Trafford, Chelsea at Stamford Bridge etc. In those circumstances I don't want to give any unnecessary space.

2. Giroud clearly had a great season, did you try having him as a more static role? I'd love to make a TM(a) work, but I don't like the launching of long balls, I want more of a target poacher

I am going to point you to a thread called Meet the Deep Lying Forward, by Cleon. It sums up exactly what you're looking for.

3. What was Alexis' play style? I want to try and create someone who attacks the box from deep / wide, but also crosses and puts in a shift defensively.

Alexis is more effective in the 4-3-3. Alexis is still effective in the 4-4-2 but he's playing more of a selfless role. He's got good workrate, solid defensively and attacks well. He's outstanding on the left side of the 4-3-3, this is where he scored most of his goals earning the Golden Boot.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Team Instructions

Play out of Defence

Pass into Space

Be More Expressive

In the 4-3-3 - Much Higher Defensive Line and Pressing

Player Instructions

AF(A) Move into Channels

MC(D) Close down much less

Also, in the 4-3-3 both Inside Forwards sit narrower.

Team instructions are above ^^^

[ramie]

Great thread again mate. Enjoyed your work on fm15

[yonko]

Yes, great thread indeed. I certainly enjoyed the one for FM15. You seem like you picked up for FM16 where you left off in FM15......

I've been thinking about having a save with Arsenal on FM16 as their squad seems very interesting and allows for several tactics to be developed.

I'm interested to know how quickly it took you to retrain Ozil to play in the CM position? I've been thinking of using some sort of 4-3-3 but I find it hard to justify a decision not to play Ozil in some role at his natural and strongest position of AMC....and kind of build a tactic around his high playmaking ability (I think he is perhaps the best natural playmaker in the game right now - FM and IRL).

It's good to know that Sanchez performs brilliantly as IF-A from the AML position because that's another piece I would consider in building an tactic with Arsenal. My other question would be how does Walcott perform in whatever role and position he is being used? I would love to get from him anything similar to what Wenger got from Henry years ago IRL.

The next thing is the role of Ramsey.....you said he was plagued by injuries in your save and you couldn't really use him much. I'm thinking of him as wide midfielder/playmaker in the MR position.....not decided yet.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Yes, great thread indeed. I certainly enjoyed the one for FM15. You seem like you picked up for FM16 where you left off in FM15......

I've been thinking about having a save with Arsenal on FM16 as their squad seems very interesting and allows for several tactics to be developed.

I'm interested to know how quickly it took you to retrain Ozil to play in the CM position? I've been thinking of using some sort of 4-3-3 but I find it hard to justify a decision not to play Ozil in some role at his natural and strongest position of AMC....and kind of build a tactic around his high playmaking ability (I think he is perhaps the best natural playmaker in the game right now - FM and IRL).

It's good to know that Sanchez performs brilliantly as IF-A from the AML position because that's another piece I would consider in building an tactic with Arsenal. My other question would be how does Walcott perform in whatever role and position he is being used? I would love to get from him anything similar to what Wenger got from Henry years ago IRL.

The next thing is the role of Ramsey.....you said he was plagued by injuries in your save and you couldn't really use him much. I'm thinking of him as wide midfielder/playmaker in the MR position.....not decided yet.

It took a matter of weeks to get Ozil to accomplished in midfield, then I had another message in March or April saying he is now a Natural MC. I actually had him on individual training for Positioning as my long-term view is that he'll be a "Regista" (not the actual role, but he'll play that way from Midfield") behind Wilshere and Ramsey as all-action midfielders. The concern was that over the course of the year, Ozil's positioning only increased from 6 to 7 so I could be waiting a while!!

To your point on Ozil at AMC - I don't like AMCs. You'll notice I rarely / never use them. They're too easy to take out of the game, don't contribute enough defensively and crowd the attacking area.

As Cazorla gets older I am going to phase Ramsey in front of him but actually have Ozil in the DLP role and Ramsey as an extra runner.

Sanchez was outstanding cutting inside as an AML. No concerns there. Highly recommended.

Walcott was great. He actually won Player of the Year for the EPL. Couple of injuries but still managed 15 goals and his pace was a constant threat. Walcott was my top scorer in the Champions League and as you can see from the games above he thrived in the counter attacking system.

Edit: Unfortunately I think expecting anything Henry-esq is a bit of an ask. Henry was a class above!

Ramsey is a tough one. He's probably my favourite player but I can't find a place for him. Unfortunately he is not a wide player. No pace, or attacking threat in comparison to Walcott or Sanchez. Ramsey has to fight it out with Ozil and Cazorla for a place in the centre. If you really want to play him, I'd say a diamond, but again you sacrifice Theo or Alexis. Better for Ramsey, but IMO the team overall would suffer.

[yonko]

It took a matter of weeks to get Ozil to accomplished in midfield, then I had another message in March or April saying he is now a Natural MC. I actually had him on individual training for Positioning as my long-term view is that he'll be a "Regista" (not the actual role, but he'll play that way from Midfield") behind Wilshere and Ramsey as all-action midfielders. The concern was that over the course of the year, Ozil's positioning only increased from 6 to 7 so I could be waiting a while!!

To your point on Ozil at AMC - I don't like AMCs. You'll notice I rarely / never use them. They're too easy to take out of the game, don't contribute enough defensively and crowd the attacking area.

As Cazorla gets older I am going to phase Ramsey in front of him but actually have Ozil in the DLP role and Ramsey as an extra runner.

Sanchez was outstanding cutting inside as an AML. No concerns there. Highly recommended.

Walcott was great. He actually won Player of the Year for the EPL. Couple of injuries but still managed 15 goals and his pace was a constant threat. Walcott was my top scorer in the Champions League and as you can see from the games above he thrived in the counter attacking system.

Edit: Unfortunately I think expecting anything Henry-esq is a bit of an ask. Henry was a class above!

Ramsey is a tough one. He's probably my favourite player but I can't find a place for him. Unfortunately he is not a wide player. No pace, or attacking threat in comparison to Walcott or Sanchez. Ramsey has to fight it out with Ozil and Cazorla for a place in the centre. If you really want to play him, I'd say a diamond, but again you sacrifice Theo or Alexis. Better for Ramsey, but IMO the team overall would suffer.

Do you start retraining Ozil at CM as soon as you start the save i.e. during pre-season or do you wait after the pre-season to do it?

As for Ozil at AMC - I think in your FM15 thread about Universality you were using a 4-3-1-2 tactic with Ozil behind Giroud and Sanchez along side the 4-3-3 tactic. There you mentioned that you preferred the 433 only because it gave you better pressing formation. Otherwise how was the 4-3-1-2 performing?

BTW, the other thing is your use of playmakers.....I thought you said you didn't like them as they attract/demand the ball too much......You would be fine with two playmakers and Very Fluid shape actually

[Rhazmuz]

Hello Ö-zil, and thank you for a very interesting post.

Im daddling around with United myself, and did actually want to try a tactic with a 3 CM formation, which I had a lot of fun with in FM15. I think United has some great midfielders which could do well in the roles you have outlined in your 4-3-3 tactic. Might even try them with a fluid shape.

A couple of questions:

1. Do you adapt width and passing build up (flanks, middle etc) based on your opponent and their formation? Or do you not touch it at all?

2. Do you keep the flexible mentality the whole match (besides when you use counter), or do you use control in matches where you dominate more?

3. Do you ever feel vunerable with 2 attacking wing backs? My experience is that they leave some open space to be exploited, so Im trying out attacking full backs atm, with PI's for stay wider and get forward. Not had much chance to evaluate it yet tho, and not sure what the difference will be.

4. Is the complete forward (support) very important to the way the team plays, or could it be exchanged for a an Advanced forward or maybe with an CF (attack)?

Cheers for your input

[Blinklys]

3. Do you ever feel vunerable with 2 attacking wing backs?

I suppose this is negated by the very high defensive line and aggressive pressing?

[TheJanitor]

Great results on the CL! Really liked how you just edged out the quarter and the semi and then crushed Atletico in the final.

One question about the system, did you find your flanks vulnerable? Esp. your left with WP-a, did Ozil tracked back? I know wide players at MLR strat tend to but I had issues with this specific role last FM.

[Chrisis]

Stupid question, but are you playing classic or is it a skin, and in that case wich one?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Do you start retraining Ozil at CM as soon as you start the save i.e. during pre-season or do you wait after the pre-season to do it?

As for Ozil at AMC - I think in your FM15 thread about Universality you were using a 4-3-1-2 tactic with Ozil behind Giroud and Sanchez along side the 4-3-3 tactic. There you mentioned that you preferred the 433 only because it gave you better pressing formation. Otherwise how was the 4-3-1-2 performing?

BTW, the other thing is your use of playmakers.....I thought you said you didn't like them as they attract/demand the ball too much......You would be fine with two playmakers and Very Fluid shape actually

I retrained Ozil immediately and he was ready to play by the time the season started.

I do enjoy playing diamond, as I did last year but unfortunately - in my opinion - it is not optimal.

The strength is in possession. You have a dominant midfield, room for plenty of playmakers with attacking options and some width from the wingbacks.

Where it suffers is when not in possession. If you press, there is nobody to harass the opposition fullbacks (which is important) and if you sit deeper, your fullbacks are exposed.

It's not the worst option in the world, but both the shapes I talk about above are stronger when not in possession.

Re playmakers, long-term I prefer to avoid them but given the make of of my midfield, I went for it. Flexible rather than Very Fluid as I also consider Coquelin a specialist. Technically a generalist role but a very specialist player. I don't want him attempting to launch attacks. This time, I actually want the ball with Ozil or Cazorla as much as possible.

Hello Ö-zil, and thank you for a very interesting post.

Im daddling around with United myself, and did actually want to try a tactic with a 3 CM formation, which I had a lot of fun with in FM15. I think United has some great midfielders which could do well in the roles you have outlined in your 4-3-3 tactic. Might even try them with a fluid shape.

A couple of questions:

1. Do you adapt width and passing build up (flanks, middle etc) based on your opponent and their formation? Or do you not touch it at all?

2. Do you keep the flexible mentality the whole match (besides when you use counter), or do you use control in matches where you dominate more?

3. Do you ever feel vunerable with 2 attacking wing backs? My experience is that they leave some open space to be exploited, so Im trying out attacking full backs atm, with PI's for stay wider and get forward. Not had much chance to evaluate it yet tho, and not sure what the difference will be.

4. Is the complete forward (support) very important to the way the team plays, or could it be exchanged for a an Advanced forward or maybe with an CF (attack)?

Cheers for your input

Thank you very much! In response to your questions:

1. Never. I prefer play a balanced tactic using intelligent players and let them find the holes, rather than force it myself. I did find Ozil particularly effective at ML against sides with AMR/L rather than MR/L.

2. I do increase to attacking, and even overload as the game goes on and I still need a goal. Not generally until 60th min onwards for attack and 80 for overload.

3. I guess it could be. Necessary evil though as my wingbacks provide most of my width given the Inside Forwards play narrow and cut in. I do still have two DCs and the MC(D) as cover. The wide MCs actually also provide decent support.

4. Very important. The Complete Forward is almost a False 9, more responsible for facilitating attacks. Moving, creating space and flick ons for the IFs to attack whilst also maintaining an areal threat in behind. In my opinion a more attacking role would be overkill. You'd possibly even end up scoring less. You need a link up player in attack.

Great results on the CL! Really liked how you just edged out the quarter and the semi and then crushed Atletico in the final.

One question about the system, did you find your flanks vulnerable? Esp. your left with WP-a, did Ozil tracked back? I know wide players at MLR strat tend to but I had issues with this specific role last FM.

Thanks! Yes those games in the run up certainly added a few grey hairs!!

Not at all. Remember the formation is the defensive shape so I have solid full backs with attacking players in front but still covering. Ozil generally distributes the ball quickly and aggressively but doesn't move too far from position. The right could be more exposed but I have solid midfield coverage.

For the counter tactic have you got your team instructions set to sit deeper? Or is it just on normal?

Just normal.

Stupid question, but are you playing classic or is it a skin, and in that case wich one?

I'm playing Classic. More interested in playing lots of games and getting used to the ME at this point, rather than pi$$ing around with other features!

[Str0aK]

Question regarding your 4-3-3. What's the reason behind a CM(d) in the midfield strata rather than someone in the DM strata? Is it for improved pressing? Do you ever find yourself vulnerable in that area?

[mobywan420]

any chance of these getting uploaded?

[yonko]

I retrained Ozil immediately and he was ready to play by the time the season started.

I do enjoy playing diamond, as I did last year but unfortunately - in my opinion - it is not optimal.

The strength is in possession. You have a dominant midfield, room for plenty of playmakers with attacking options and some width from the wingbacks.

Where it suffers is when not in possession. If you press, there is nobody to harass the opposition fullbacks (which is important) and if you sit deeper, your fullbacks are exposed.

It's not the worst option in the world, but both the shapes I talk about above are stronger when not in possession.

Re playmakers, long-term I prefer to avoid them but given the make of of my midfield, I went for it. Flexible rather than Very Fluid as I also consider Coquelin a specialist. Technically a generalist role but a very specialist player. I don't want him attempting to launch attacks. This time, I actually want the ball with Ozil or Cazorla as much as possible.

I'm still undecided and wondering what approach to take with Arsenal. I'm so seduced by my desire to use Ozil at his best and most natural position of AMC and build a tactic around him. I want to surround him with goalscoring partners - already got one in Sanchez as IF from the left wing, I think. I'm still piecing it all together in my head, envisioning it so to speak. But it doesn't look like I will be using anything close to either of your approaches with Arsenal anyway.

I did and I do use something similar to your 4-3-3 tactic though in other experiment save games with other teams. So I'm interested in that...

4. Very important. The Complete Forward is almost a False 9, more responsible for facilitating attacks. Moving, creating space and flick ons for the IFs to attack whilst also maintaining an areal threat in behind. In my opinion a more attacking role would be overkill. You'd possibly even end up scoring less. You need a link up player in attack.

Curious here for your choice of CF-S over a DLF-S. I've found that (mostly on FM15 and so far on FM16) that one role works best with certain players and the other role works better for other players. For example, a ST who has PPM "comes deep to get the ball" plays really well as CF-S. On the other hand, a ST without that PPM and with a more forward moving PPM plays best as DLF-S.

I'm playing Classic. More interested in playing lots of games and getting used to the ME at this point, rather than pi$$ing around with other features!

That's a good point. I'm going to give Classic a chance again this year. What's improved now compared to last year? Keep in though that the ME may be tweaked slightly for the full release as some things get ironed out based on beta feedback. Although I must say this is the best FM Beta released in terms of bugs and glitches, specifically when it comes to the ME. Very smooth in my experience so far.....

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Question regarding your 4-3-3. What's the reason behind a CM(d) in the midfield strata rather than someone in the DM strata? Is it for improved pressing? Do you ever find yourself vulnerable in that area?

I find playing a DMC creates too big a gap between the other MCs. MC(S) - MC(D) - MC(S) creates a nice tight triangle in the middle of the park giving maximum control.

Curious here for your choice of CF-S over a DLF-S. I've found that (mostly on FM15 and so far on FM16) that one role works best with certain players and the other role works better for other players. For example, a ST who has PPM "comes deep to get the ball" plays really well as CF-S. On the other hand, a ST without that PPM and with a more forward moving PPM plays best as DLF-S.

As a general rule, I like a Complete Forward in 1 striker systems and a Deep-Lying Forward combined with an Advanced Forward for two-striker systems. In the two striker systems I want to split the responsibilities. In the one striker system I want the Striker to have more movement and a more complete role. I prefer support to attack as I want to primary role to be facilitating attacks for the IFs but also provide some threat himself.

Hope that's clear!

That's a good point. I'm going to give Classic a chance again this year. What's improved now compared to last year? Keep in though that the ME may be tweaked slightly for the full release as some things get ironed out based on beta feedback. Although I must say this is the best FM Beta released in terms of bugs and glitches, specifically when it comes to the ME. Very smooth in my experience so far.....

You can chose to control training for certain players. Don't think you could so that last year. I control Ozil as I am retraining him to be my regista.

The best thing about it for me is that is cuts out lots of the "noise". No press conferences, opposition instructions, team talks, and tactical preparation etc. Much quicker, much simpler, far fewer things to rush through and neglect!

Yea the beta so far is excellent. Really enjoying the new Match Engine. It's very logical.

[Rhazmuz]

Any chance for reuploading some of the screenshots, at least the first two?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Any chance for reuploading some of the screenshots, at least the first two?

Oh bugger - anyone got any recommendations for a hosting site?

[Jean0987654321]

I use imgur...

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Thank you.

Done.

[yonko]

Can I ask what kind of pressing do you use in your 4-3-3 tactic? Is it Close Down More or Much More?

[Maaka]

Curious here for your choice of CF-S over a DLF-S. I've found that (mostly on FM15 and so far on FM16) that one role works best with certain players and the other role works better for other players. For example, a ST who has PPM "comes deep to get the ball" plays really well as CF-S. On the other hand, a ST without that PPM and with a more forward moving PPM plays best as DLF-S.

As a general rule, I like a Complete Forward in 1 striker systems and a Deep-Lying Forward combined with an Advanced Forward for two-striker systems. In the two striker systems I want to split the responsibilities. In the one striker system I want the Striker to have more movement and a more complete role. I prefer support to attack as I want to primary role to be facilitating attacks for the IFs but also provide some threat himself.

I'm thinking this boils down to a discussion about whether to make the players fit into your tactic, or make a tactic fit to your players.

If I think further than just a good season with a team, I'd prefer to build a tactic that would work, and then mold the players into the tactic (and for the future acquire players who'll fit the tactic), rather than changing tactics to fit new players arriving in the upcoming years.

Anyway, I think I'm gonna try this, at least in beta now, and see how it works.

Good job!

[TheGhostofPaulLambert]

I have a quick counter attacking question.

I've never known what shape to set my team up as? I'm Villa and want quick direct counter attacks and scoring from crosses to a target man, or breaks in behind. Defensively I also want to press so I'm not so passive (I hate watching the opposition waltz through my team) - I'm basically trying a Simeone-esque / more defensive Klopp approach.

I'm currently torn between two set ups:

4231

Gk (d)

WB (s)

CB (D)

CB (D)

CWB (a)

DLP (S)

CM (D)

W (A)

AM (A)

IF (S)

DLF (S)

Or

433

Gk (d)

WB (s)

CB (D)

CB (D)

CWB (a)

DM (D)

CM (A)

B2B (S)

IF (A)

IF (S)

DLF (S)

Play counter mentality, TI's = higher def line, hit early crosses, higher tempo

Now it's a mixed bag so far (any glaring issues you see above would be gratefully received), but I feel like I have a real issue with picking the best team shape. I like fluid but find it doesn't suit my style. Structured is good but wonder if it makes the team too one dimensional? Flexible? I'm not sure. I must admit I've never really got to grips with the team shape concept despite watching countless games with various ones, so any advice (real world examples really help) or counselling would help.

P.s. apologies if it's not a great post. I'm a long time player, forum reader, but relatively new poster.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Can I ask what kind of pressing do you use in your 4-3-3 tactic? Is it Close Down More or Much More?

I think it was close down more, but you shouldn't see a huge difference either way.

I'm thinking this boils down to a discussion about whether to make the players fit into your tactic, or make a tactic fit to your players.

If I think further than just a good season with a team, I'd prefer to build a tactic that would work, and then mold the players into the tactic (and for the future acquire players who'll fit the tactic), rather than changing tactics to fit new players arriving in the upcoming years.

Anyway, I think I'm gonna try this, at least in beta now, and see how it works.

Good job!

Yes absolutely. It's all about balance. Good luck!

I have a quick counter attacking question.

I've never known what shape to set my team up as? I'm Villa and want quick direct counter attacks and scoring from crosses to a target man, or breaks in behind. Defensively I also want to press so I'm not so passive (I hate watching the opposition waltz through my team) - I'm basically trying a Simeone-esque / more defensive Klopp approach.

I'm currently torn between two set ups:

4231

Gk (d)

WB (s)

CB (D)

CB (D)

CWB (a)

DLP (S)

CM (D)

W (A)

AM (A)

IF (S)

DLF (S)

Or

433

Gk (d)

WB (s)

CB (D)

CB (D)

CWB (a)

DM (D)

CM (A)

B2B (S)

IF (A)

IF (S)

DLF (S)

Play counter mentality, TI's = higher def line, hit early crosses, higher tempo

Now it's a mixed bag so far (any glaring issues you see above would be gratefully received), but I feel like I have a real issue with picking the best team shape. I like fluid but find it doesn't suit my style. Structured is good but wonder if it makes the team too one dimensional? Flexible? I'm not sure. I must admit I've never really got to grips with the team shape concept despite watching countless games with various ones, so any advice (real world examples really help) or counselling would help.

P.s. apologies if it's not a great post. I'm a long time player, forum reader, but relatively new poster.

The most important thing to remember is that your formation, is your defensive shape. You then use player roles and instructions to build an attack.

In a counter attacking system you are going to be under a lot of pressure so you need a solid defensive shape. That's why I opted for the "two banks of four".

One issue you might face is the opposition exploiting the space in between your AMR/L and fullbacks. I would certainly say that a 4-2-3-1 has too many players not contributing to defence. Another issue I can see at a glance is the higher defensive line. When I counter I sit deeper and stay compact. A higher line may leave space behind it.

The secondary consideration is that in order to counter attack quickly you do need players in attacking positions quickly. That's another reason I like 4-4-2 as you have the two strikers, already up there when possession is won so you can attack immediately. They're then supported by the winger and supplied by either of the playmakers, or the winger depending on the scenario.

My recommendations would be solid shapes like 4-4-2, 4-1-4-1, 4-4-1-1, maybe 3-5-2. With the 4-1-4-1 and 4-4-1-1 you'll need to ensure you've got a good attacking threat.

[TheGhostofPaulLambert]

I think it was close down more, but you shouldn't see a huge difference either way.

Yes absolutely. It's all about balance. Good luck!

The most important thing to remember is that your formation, is your defensive shape. You then use player roles and instructions to build an attack.

In a counter attacking system you are going to be under a lot of pressure so you need a solid defensive shape. That's why I opted for the "two banks of four".

One issue you might face is the opposition exploiting the space in between your AMR/L and fullbacks. I would certainly say that a 4-2-3-1 has too many players not contributing to defence. Another issue I can see at a glance is the higher defensive line. When I counter I sit deeper and stay compact. A higher line may leave space behind it.

The secondary consideration is that in order to counter attack quickly you do need players in attacking positions quickly. That's another reason I like 4-4-2 as you have the two strikers, already up there when possession is won so you can attack immediately. They're then supported by the winger and supplied by either of the playmakers, or the winger depending on the scenario.

My recommendations would be solid shapes like 4-4-2, 4-1-4-1, 4-4-1-1, maybe 3-5-2. With the 4-1-4-1 and 4-4-1-1 you'll need to ensure you've got a good attacking threat.

Excellent advice thank you.

In a 4411 would the following look more balanced?

Gk (D)

Fb (s)

CD (d)

CD (d)

Cwb (s)

W (a)

DLP (S)

CM (d)

Wp (a)

AM (A)

DLF (S)

Or would I need another runner from midfield? Perhaps a B2b and switch DLp to (d)?

Many thanks again. I needed someone to point to some cold hard logic!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

That looks good. Personally I'd make two tweaks. The first being swap the Complete Wingback for a standard Wingback. The reason for this is that the complete wingback has roam from position activated. I wouldn't want that when defending with our backs to the wall. The second change being to swap the DLF for a Complete Forward. The reason for this is that I'd want slightly more threat from a lone-striker in a counter attacking system.

[cijamus]

Ö-zil to the Arsenal!, how do you choose and develop players for your tactics? What are the important principles, attributes etc in assembling your squad?

[Str0aK]

Always been a 4-1-2-2-1 guy but think I'm gonna try the flat midfield 3 with Southampton when I get FM16. The way I'm seeing it in my head is like:

Control, Flexible

Play Out Of Defence

Close Down Much More

Prevent Short GK Distribution

GK(D)

WB(S)

CD(D)

CD(D)

FB(A)

DLP(S)

CM(A)

CM(D)

RD(A)

W(S)

CF(S)

Unsure about Prevent Short GK Distribution and may need to push the D-line up more. We'll see how it goes.

[James9]

That looks good. Personally I'd make two tweaks. The first being swap the Complete Wingback for a standard Wingback. The reason for this is that the complete wingback has roam from position activated. I wouldn't want that when defending with our backs to the wall. The second change being to swap the DLF for a Complete Forward. The reason for this is that I'd want slightly more threat from a lone-striker in a counter attacking system.

Could I ask you Ozil if you would use a wide midfielder attack in a counter attacking system or is a winger attack better

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Ö-zil to the Arsenal!, how do you choose and develop players for your tactics? What are the important principles, attributes etc in assembling your squad?

That's a huge question. Probably an entire thread just to scratch the surface.

In general, I go for intelligent, technically talented players with good stamina / work ethic.

Always been a 4-1-2-2-1 guy but think I'm gonna try the flat midfield 3 with Southampton when I get FM16. The way I'm seeing it in my head is like:

Control, Flexible

Play Out Of Defence

Close Down Much More

Prevent Short GK Distribution

GK(D)

WB(S)

CD(D)

CD(D)

FB(A)

DLP(S)

CM(A)

CM(D)

RD(A)

W(S)

CF(S)

Unsure about Prevent Short GK Distribution and may need to push the D-line up more. We'll see how it goes.

Great. Good luck. Let us know how you go!

Could I ask you Ozil if you would use a wide midfielder attack in a counter attacking system or is a winger attack better

Either. 100% depends on the player.

[Quinby]

Hey Ozil,

Do you find with the 442 counter that the two strikers do any defensive work? Like do they drop into midfield to help defend or do they wait at half way line? I've tried something similar with F9 and AF and they wait at half way...

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Giroud tends to get quite involved. Chasing up the centre backs etc. Walcott seems more likely to sit in an advanced position.

[Quinby]

Giroud tends to get quite involved. Chasing up the centre backs etc. Walcott seems more likely to sit in an advanced position.

I mean when the opposition has the ball in the middle of park or their attacking third? Does he drop deep then?

[themightyyak]

For those tough away games, I switched my Milan side from a 3-5-2 to something like the 4-4-2 detailed above and it rewarded me with wins at Lazio and Roma. It works well.

My opinion is that 4-4-2 is overpowered in this game and has been for a long time, particularly as a possession formation.

[johnnyyakuza78]

I've played a lot with a 442 counter an one thing thats quite inherent in the formation is the issue of giving away space in front of the defence and behind your strikers. Both gaps don't often get adequately filled. I often find that any team playing with a deep lying strikers or an AMC can really get a lot of space to play in. A CM on defend will still find it quite tricky to combat that threat and often what you see is a central defender charging out of their position, leaving the other defender on his own to get ruined by a pacey striker.

I combat this sometimes by either pushing up my D-Line a lot to compress the space, or play with 2 DMCs. The 2 DMCs option is pretty direct and you don't see them involved in offensive play much, but its pretty solid defensively.

I will say that having really good players will often make up for these weaknesses.

[axehan1]

Team Instructions

Play out of Defence

Pass into Space

Be More Expressive

In the 4-3-3 - Much Higher Defensive Line and Pressing

Player Instructions

AF(A) Move into Channels

MC(D) Close down much less

Also, in the 4-3-3 both Inside Forwards sit narrower.

Is it possible to instruct the MC(D) to close down much less when he has close down much more hard coded in his instructions?

[roggiotis]

Yes it is possible to instruct him to close down much less ,but the result of the closing down is a little higher from the middle , as you can easily see from the graph of the P.I

Think the closing down comparative to other roles

[Z3LCIAH]

Walked the Vanarama with this 442 tactic, granted it's a weak league but the style of play is quality for LLM. Got promoted first season using only this tactic and occasionally replacing a STR with an AMC.

Doing well in League 2 with it as well, currently 3rd after 15 games.

[Hunter T]

great job and presentation!

[Bigpapa42]

Really like the thread and hope you keep it going once the full version comes out tomorrow. Its a great read, and inspiring to many of us hoping to do similar.

Between this and Cleon's Defensive Arts, I'm hoping to put together a counter tactic that I can adapt to different clubs and squads. Intending to start with Hull City, so going with a 4-4-2 narrow diamond first. Not so much because of Cleon's thread but because it fits the squad. Using Fluid and Counter, narrow and fast-paced (hoping to counter at pace). Only played 4 friendlies but looks to be effective - scoring loads against both tiny opposition and against another Championship club. Letting a few goals in but its not all crosses off the wing like I feared, with just the wingbacks for width, but more defensive splitting passes and slow CDs. I've considered switching the wide defenders to FB so they add to defensive stability but that means my attacking width disappears. Need to do more experimenting and analysis.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Yes the diamond is a tough one. In my opinion, it is not a strong option for a counter attacking shape. The reason being that the flanks are so exposed in the defensive phase. The very nature of the counter mentality means you'll invite the opposition forward but this means you'll invite them forward AND give them lots of space. Midfielders or fullbacks will have to close down to compensate, leaving gaps all over.

In my opinion the diamond is better suited to a standard mentality and it's a more attacking shape. In fact, in FM2015 the diamond was the most effective attacking shape I used!