Wheezes the AI cooks up to make you concede a goal?

[Poor Jewell]

My personal 'favourite' is the triple 270 degree dither followed by "I know I have six open team-mates to pass to but I'll just stand here turning left and right six times until my opponents striker is in the clear for a suicidal back pass"

The in game graphics are a lot better in 15 but some of the old standards still make (thanfully less frequent) appearances

[isignedupfornorealreason]

My personal 'favourite' is the triple 270 degree dither followed by "I know I have six open team-mates to pass to but I'll just stand here turning left and right six times until my opponents striker is in the clear for a suicidal back pass"

The in game graphics are a lot better in 15 but some of the old standards still make (thanfully less frequent) appearances

Those things annoy me, especially where they're on a mazy dribble like Giggsy but because an AI opponent is in front of him, he decides to forget how to dribble and be agile and just screech to a halt and do the 'turn, turn, turn' animation before trying a ridiculously stupid pass or thumping it against the guy in the hope he'll vanish.

There's also the great 'Pass the ball forward for onrunning striker' only to have it smack someone in the back of the head, so everyone runs past the ball except the opposition players who'll take it and be clean through.

Or (patched out now) the old one where a defender hoofs it into the back of another defender for an own goal. XD

[Blackthorn]

Those things annoy me, especially where they're on a mazy dribble like Giggsy but because an AI opponent is in front of him, he decides to forget how to dribble and be agile and just screech to a halt and do the 'turn, turn, turn' animation before trying a ridiculously stupid pass or thumping it against the guy in the hope he'll vanish.

There's also the great 'Pass the ball forward for onrunning striker' only to have it smack someone in the back of the head, so everyone runs past the ball except the opposition players who'll take it and be clean through.

Or (patched out now) the old one where a defender hoofs it into the back of another defender for an own goal. XD

I had that in an under 18s game yesterday.

[brawla123]

Another annoying thing is how many times a player can fall over whilst trying to dribble.

[brawla123]

Often that's down to your tactics.

If you've got a player set to pass it short, made to strictly follow his instructions, and the players that you can see who are available are beyond the range that you've told him to use then he will choose to hold onto the ball in the hope that a suitable pass opens up.

It's not down to tactics.

[Aidan1991]

People will use the tactics excuse for anything on this forum.

[Cougar2010]

It's not down to tactics.

It is partly down to tactics in exactly the way mack explained.

The player can't find a pass within the orders given to him and his own attributes so he holds onto the ball until either he finds a pass or gets tackled.

[brawla123]

It is partly down to tactics in exactly the way mack explained.

The player can't find a pass within the orders given to him and his own attributes so he holds onto the ball until either he finds a pass or gets tackled.

He's saying it's often down to tactics and now you're saying it's partly down to tactics. Which one is it?

I've never used the player instruction to pass it shorter and I'm experiencing the same thing as the OP. So, how is it the tactics?

[Cougar2010]

He's saying it's often down to tactics and now you're saying it's partly down to tactics. Which one is it?

I've never used the player instruction to pass it shorter and I'm experiencing the same thing as the OP. So, how is it the tactics?

Your players try to follow the instructions you give them, at a basic level this is the role & duty you give them and is then also modified by team & player instructions.

Their ability to follow the instructions then depends on their attributes.

In the example we are talking about it could be that the player simply doesn't have a pass available within the instructions defined by his role, duty & instructions. Alternatively he may have a pass available but his attributes mean he doesn't see it or chooses not to use it for some reason, risk level being the obvious reason although there could be others (In this case you are mainly talking about vision but also things like decisions, teamwork etc).

EDIT

Just thinking of my own saves I do see it in my own team from time to time but its generally one position that probably suffers from it more than others - A DM with a defend order.

[brawla123]

Your players try to follow the instructions you give them, at a basic level this is the role & duty you give them and is then also modified by team & player instructions.

Their ability to follow the instructions then depends on their attributes.

In the example we are talking about it could be that the player simply doesn't have a pass available within the instructions defined by his role, duty & instructions. Alternatively he may have a pass available but his attributes mean he doesn't see it or chooses not to use it for some reason, risk level being the obvious reason although there could be others (In this case you are mainly talking about vision but also things like decisions, teamwork etc).

EDIT

Just thinking of my own saves I do see it in my own team from time to time but its generally one position that probably suffers from it more than others - A DM with a defend order.

Personally, I think you're making this seem more difficult than it is. You're assuming that the OP and everyone who agrees with the statement uses the same roles, duties and instructions?

Even if that's the case, it only takes common sense for a player to make the pass instead of dwelling on the ball.

[Cougar2010]

Personally, I think you're making this seem more difficult than it is.

I'm not making anything difficult, I'm simply explaining how FM works.

How you choose to use the information is down to you & everyone else that reads it.

You're assuming that the OP and everyone who agrees with the statement uses the same roles, duties and instructions?

Which statement?

I've not assumed anything, I've explained what causes the issue which we are discussing and then using my experience explained which position & duty seems to be more prone to it than others.

Even if that's the case, it only takes common sense for a player to make the pass instead of dwelling on the ball.

FM is a computer simulation, your players don't have "common sense", they follow what they are coded to follow - Instructions given by role, duty & instructions to the best of their ability (Attributes).

[brawla123]

Is that actually how it works or is that your opinion?

Even if players don't have common sense there's more than enough attributes, instructions and PPM's to get some form of an outcome that at least implies they do. I'm pretty sure that once the update is released this this one the areas that will get tweaked.

Year after year we see the same flaws in the game. It's like most of the people on here are so used to defending the game, you don't even know what's wrong with it anymore.

[scott MUFC]

common sense is the issue mainly.

the players should be coded to follow the instructions given.

[themadsheep2001]

Is that actually how it works or is that your opinion?

Even if players don't have common sense there's more than enough attributes, instructions and PPM's to get some form of an outcome that at least implies they do. I'm pretty sure that once the update is released this this one the areas that will get tweaked.

Year after year we see the same flaws in the game. It's like most of the people on here are so used to defending the game, you don't even know what's wrong with it anymore.

He's mostly right when backing up macks point actually.

For example if you play a short passing game, you need to make sure your play has outlets, or he is given the creative freedom to deviate from the game plan. Otherwise he is going to try and stick to your game plan, either by holding on in the hope of an option coming free, or trying to not get caught on the ball and hammering it away.

Your players try to follow the instructions you give them, at a basic level this is the role & duty you give them and is then also modified by team & player instructions.

Their ability to follow the instructions then depends on their attributes.

In the example we are talking about it could be that the player simply doesn't have a pass available within the instructions defined by his role, duty & instructions. Alternatively he may have a pass available but his attributes mean he doesn't see it or chooses not to use it for some reason, risk level being the obvious reason although there could be others (In this case you are mainly talking about vision but also things like decisions, teamwork etc).

He's not making it more difficult than is it by saying the above, by and large that is the premise.

[Cougar2010]

Is that actually how it works or is that your opinion?

Its how I understand it to work based on 20 years experience of playing, reading the forums and taking on board the posts made by SI staff and others like wwfan who have first hand knowledge of the coding.

Even if players don't have common sense there's more than enough attributes, instructions and PPM's to get some form of an outcome that at least implies they do. I'm pretty sure that once the update is released this this one the areas that will get tweaked.

Year after year we see the same flaws in the game. It's like most of the people on here are so used to defending the game, you don't even know what's wrong with it anymore.

Three points here:

A) Its not unusual to see players caught in possession, it happens in every RL football match at all levels so having your player caught on the ball in FM is realistic.

B) A lot of things in FM are about opinion and it may be an area that does get tweaked a little so a player gets rid of the ball sooner rather than trying to keep possession. Even if that happens its still not a bug which is black or white it is simply a matter of each individuals opinion as to when the player would get rid of the ball. Much like the opinion of whether Rooney should have 14, 15 or 16 for finishing.

C) Why do you & others like you consistently put down and fight against the users like myself who give you advice about how the game works? Its not like we are telling you what to do, we are simply telling you the facts about why things happen which should in theory help you to understand FM better so you have a more enjoyable experience.

The tactics forum has been fantastic this year, probably the best I've seen it. Many, many users have improved their own knowledge which has led to less frustration and more enjoyment on their part and yet there is still a minority who seemingly don't want the help preferring to continuing to post negatively. Is that the way you act IRL as well?

[RTHerringbone]

the players should be coded to follow the instructions given.

And they are, but they aren't robots and so can misplace a pass, drag a shot wide or mistime a header.

[Poor Jewell]

I see my light-hearted let off steam post has been the cause of an argument

Of course players make mistakes. Of course my choice of tactics could have an impact. Is the way the game illustrates those things irritating and too frequently ludicrous? Yes to the first. As to the second, that has reduced but I still feel it is a bit too frequent.

BTW I nearly always play with the flexible option.

[scott MUFC]

by misplace a pass you mean do stupid stuff like pass it so stupidly short, or across the goal face? conceded a goal in last game keeper makes a tackle... then stands there. wtf.

get events frequently to concede to these

Indirect free kicks (scored far too much, while Direct free kicks are poor)

Random Penalties at corners

Slide tackles the ball going to the opposition player (this was worse in earlier versions where every time it did it in attack build ups)

your players losing the ball high up the pitch by falling over

and recently, keepers taking a free kick midway in their half hoofing it over your back line.

[Rashidi]

Now you are just opening multiple threads..harping on the same issue: the AI beats you too often.

[Poor Jewell]

Now you are just opening multiple threads..harping on the same issue: the AI beats you too often.

factually incorrect with every word

[brawla123]

Three points here:

A) Its not unusual to see players caught in possession, it happens in every RL football match at all levels so having your player caught on the ball in FM is realistic.

B) A lot of things in FM are about opinion and it may be an area that does get tweaked a little so a player gets rid of the ball sooner rather than trying to keep possession. Even if that happens its still not a bug which is black or white it is simply a matter of each individuals opinion as to when the player would get rid of the ball. Much like the opinion of whether Rooney should have 14, 15 or 16 for finishing.

C) Why do you & others like you consistently put down and fight against the users like myself who give you advice about how the game works? Its not like we are telling you what to do, we are simply telling you the facts about why things happen which should in theory help you to understand FM better so you have a more enjoyable experience.

The tactics forum has been fantastic this year, probably the best I've seen it. Many, many users have improved their own knowledge which has led to less frustration and more enjoyment on their part and yet there is still a minority who seemingly don't want the help preferring to continuing to post negatively. Is that the way you act IRL as well?

I don't really know where that Rooney part came from but I understand your point now. I don't consistently put down anyone. If I didn't want to give you a fair chance in expressing your opinion, I would have ignored you after your first post. I'm just trying to understand what's going on here. How am I posting negatively? I might seem stubborn but I've read everything you posted and replied. You're exaggerating.

[brawla123]

He's mostly right when backing up macks point actually.

For example if you play a short passing game, you need to make sure your play has outlets, or he is given the creative freedom to deviate from the game plan. Otherwise he is going to try and stick to your game plan, either by holding on in the hope of an option coming free, or trying to not get caught on the ball and hammering it away.

Your players try to follow the instructions you give them, at a basic level this is the role & duty you give them and is then also modified by team & player instructions.

Their ability to follow the instructions then depends on their attributes.

In the example we are talking about it could be that the player simply doesn't have a pass available within the instructions defined by his role, duty & instructions. Alternatively he may have a pass available but his attributes mean he doesn't see it or chooses not to use it for some reason, risk level being the obvious reason although there could be others (In this case you are mainly talking about vision but also things like decisions, teamwork etc).

He's not making it more difficult than is it by saying the above, by and large that is the premise.

So, if you play a short passing game, what is the best way to avoid this? Do I tell the players to be more expressive?

[RTHerringbone]

by misplace a pass you mean do stupid stuff like pass it so stupidly short, or across the goal face? conceded a goal in last game keeper makes a tackle... then stands there. wtf.

get events frequently to concede to these

Indirect free kicks (scored far too much, while Direct free kicks are poor)

Random Penalties at corners

Slide tackles the ball going to the opposition player (this was worse in earlier versions where every time it did it in attack build ups)

your players losing the ball high up the pitch by falling over

and recently, keepers taking a free kick midway in their half hoofing it over your back line.

In spite of all that, your last screenshot of a league table has you with 18 wins from 19 games and 13 points clear. You must be pleased that this wall of bugs and animation quirks hasn't affected your results too badly.

[v InterfectoR v]

Your defender tip toeing to the ball at the back whilst the attacker is right behind him. It's like a pantomime in this game at times especially when the defender then plays a Pea-roller to the keeper and they score.

[Cougar2010]

I don't really know where that Rooney part came from

It was just the first example that sprung to mind (Peoples having differing opinions on attributes) & Rooney because he is often used as an example in varying discussions - probably because he is one of England's top players.

Wasn't intended as anything more than that.

I'm just trying to understand what's going on here. How am I posting negatively? I might seem stubborn but I've read everything you posted and replied.

You aren't as bad as others but you have a tendency to dismiss explanations that don't come direct from SI staff and question where the information came from.

So, if you play a short passing game, what is the best way to avoid this? Do I tell the players to be more expressive?

Think of passing range as a circle around a player, the shorter you want the passing the smaller that circle is. If the circle is too small and you haven't made sure other players are going to be standing in that circle then the player on the ball will have trouble finding a pass as all his teammates will be standing outside the circle.

[brawla123]

You aren't as bad as others but you have a tendency to dismiss explanations that don't come direct from SI staff and question where the information came from.

I can admit that but it's only because if it's not someone from SI then I assume it's just the poster's opinion.

Think of passing range as a circle around a player, the shorter you want the passing the smaller that circle is. If the circle is too small and you haven't made sure other players are going to be standing in that circle then the player on the ball will have trouble finding a pass as all his teammates will be standing outside the circle.

Okay, so do you think playing narrower would help provide more options?

[Cougar2010]

Okay, so do you think playing narrower would help provide more options?

Possibly depending on the formation/tactics and the opposition but it could lead to other issues as well.

To give a better opinion I would really need a screenshot of your tactics so I can see shape/roles/duties and also which player/position/role/duty do you see the issue with. Just one or several?

Its also important to consider how your opponents tactics are influencing the issue. Are they aggressively closing your team down? Are they blocking off the main passes?

[brawla123]

It's usually when my team is counter-attacking that I find this problem. Like if I have a player bombing down the wing (usually my winger), my attacking players provide support but sometimes the guy with the ball does what the OP is talking about.

[HUNT3R]

That's because you're asking your wingers to hold up the ball to wait for runners... except you have no runners, with any regularity anyway, apart from the fullbacks.

[Cougar2010]

Is it one specific player or role you notice it with more than others?

The following is just my opinion and there are certainly others in the tactics forum that know more about how the different options work. Some thoughts though based on your screenshots:

A) Looks like you are Man Utd which generally means you will be one of the teams with the higher reps in the league. What this means is that a lot of teams will look to play quite defensively against you either by packing the midfield or by keeping men behind the ball and you need to find a way through them.

B) In broad general terms the higher up the league you expect to finish the lower your mentality should be as you look to control the ball. Thats not to say other mentalities can't work though, what you are basically trying to achieve with "Control" is quick, direct balls into the opposition half before their defence has a chance to settle back into its shape. With this in mind do your fullbacks have the time to get forward and join in with the attacking play before the move is over?

C) I see a lot of people on the forums using a lot of team/player instructions and its one of the main areas my tactics differ. I add team/player instructions on a match by match basis when I feel they will make a difference, I never have any on by default. The one I would consider default given your overall tactic would be look for overlap while I can also understand whipped crosses given you have Benzema up front.

I don't think "play narrower" helps you, generally as the bigger team you have the better players and therefore want to stretch the defence across the pitch to create more space for your attackers.

You already play quite a high tempo with "Control" mentality and then you are asking your players to play higher still which could lead to rushed passes & shots. Its good if your players are sharp enough to play at that pace but often things get rushed and your players aren't given the time to let play develop.

Your roles/duties seem fine on paper so I suspect the cause of your issue could be one or more of "Shorter Passing", "Higher tempo" and "Work ball into box" combined with the control mentality.

If it was me those are the things I would play around with to see if they made much difference in a match.

Its also worth saying it can look right on paper but you don't know how it works on the pitch until a match. With that in mind if you want to upload a pkm of a match where you have seen the issue I would quite happily watch it and again give my opinion.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

In spite of all that, your last screenshot of a league table has you with 18 wins from 19 games and 13 points clear. You must be pleased that this wall of bugs and animation quirks hasn't affected your results too badly.

Haha come on now, just because people are winning doesn't disqualify the animations from still needing fine-tuning.

I agree with what Cougar says in any case, the passing range can explain the issue sometimes, *but* for what is meant to be a football simulation we should be seeing a more 'natural' way of losing the ball, maybe dribble and get tackled, maybe try the ambitious pass but fail it but not the stand and swivel thing - It can happen outside of the passing range explanation as well btw, I find it happens when the team dominates and the middle is congested and a runner moves too early.

[brawla123]

In broad general terms the higher up the league you expect to finish the lower your mentality should be as you look to control the ball. Thats not to say other mentalities can't work though, what you are basically trying to achieve with "Control" is quick, direct balls into the opposition half before their defence has a chance to settle back into its shape. With this in mind do your fullbacks have the time to get forward and join in with the attacking play before the move is over?

What I want is kind of hard for me to put down in the tactic creator. I want my team to generally try to control the match with quick short passing so that I can catch defenders off guard. I usually get this output but if I play against a team who is just as fast as mine like Chelsea, my whole gameplan looks like a joke (Damn Mourinho). Now that you mentioned my fullbacks they sometimes aren't able to keep up when my team is on the counter but in all other types of play my full backs are great.

I see a lot of people on the forums using a lot of team/player instructions and its one of the main areas my tactics differ. I add team/player instructions on a match by match basis when I feel they will make a difference, I never have any on by default. The one I would consider default given your overall tactic would be look for overlap while I can also understand whipped crosses given you have Benzema up front.

I've always used a similar amount of instructions since FM11/12 so I guess I just got used to doing that.

I don't think "play narrower" helps you, generally as the bigger team you have the better players and therefore want to stretch the defence across the pitch to create more space for your attackers.

I've felt like this too but after my first season where I didn't use it, since then I feel like it helps my players keep the ball.

I will definitely make some changes though. Thanks for the advice. How would I upload PKM besides FileZilla?

[scott MUFC]

In spite of all that, your last screenshot of a league table has you with 18 wins from 19 games and 13 points clear. You must be pleased that this wall of bugs and animation quirks hasn't affected your results too badly.

nope, just frustrating conceding that one goal, haven't had a clean sheet in a fair few games now and I have to switch tactics to play away because my tactic i use to steamroll at home has short passing at the back and high pressing......... which never happens away from home

[Insipidus]

pretty much the thread i was looking for. i flit between 14 and 15 having only just got the latter. 14 seems so much smoother when it comes to the match engine - passes actually reach the intended players at the right point of the trajectory, the flight of the ball is a steady speed, rather than some weird physics that makes it go faster mid flight, players tackle well instead of sliding in and the opposition player slowing down to allow a "clean tackle" to take place....lets not forget to mention the ridiculous collision physics with both balls and players having the ability to ghost through the opposition (literally). the 3D match engine has regressed since the last version, and thats not even touching on the turny turny thing that happens time and time again. guess thats all my tactics though, huh?

[wwfan]

It's usually when my team is counter-attacking that I find this problem. Like if I have a player bombing down the wing (usually my winger), my attacking players provide support but sometimes the guy with the ball does what the OP is talking about.

This is almost very good, but, and there's always a but, I'd suggest you think about where your final point of attack is.

Currently, you have your front three all dropping into deep space (TQ does it automatically and the Look for Overlap shout will encourage your wide support players to drop deeper than they normally would). At best, you only have a semi-regular runner out of midfield in the B2B midfielder, meaning nobody, other than the FBs, will consistently get past the line leader. You are then compressing your own space by having a higher line and narrower width. Ultimately, you will have seven players compressed into a narrow final third space trying to play short passes at high tempo having to work the ball into the box before anyone will shoot. My assumption is you will see a lot of lost possession in the final third as it (a) gets too crowded, (b) gets too hectic and © nobody makes the killer run beyond the front man to get into the box and create that chance.

To reduce the chances of lost possession due to over complication and lack of space, think about who you want to move beyond the TQ and how you want to get the ball to them.

[brawla123]

This is almost very good, but, and there's always a but, I'd suggest you think about where your final point of attack is.

Currently, you have your front three all dropping into deep space (TQ does it automatically and the Look for Overlap shout will encourage your wide support players to drop deeper than they normally would). At best, you only have a semi-regular runner out of midfield in the B2B midfielder, meaning nobody, other than the FBs, will consistently get past the line leader. You are then compressing your own space by having a higher line and narrower width. Ultimately, you will have seven players compressed into a narrow final third space trying to play short passes at high tempo having to work the ball into the box before anyone will shoot. My assumption is you will see a lot of lost possession in the final third as it (a) gets too crowded, (b) gets too hectic and © nobody makes the killer run beyond the front man to get into the box and create that chance.

To reduce the chances of lost possession due to over complication and lack of space, think about who you want to move beyond the TQ and how you want to get the ball to them.

You're right. I've made some tweaks base on Cougar's advice and my final third play has improved. I stopped looking for the overlap and using the higher tempo and now my team have become more patient in the build up so therefore we can keep the ball better in the final third. Thanks for the advice, wwfan.

[wwfan]

You're right. I've made some tweaks base on Cougar's advice and my final third play has improved. I stopped looking for the overlap and using the higher tempo and now my team have become more patient in the build up so therefore we can keep the ball better in the final third. Thanks for the advice, wwfan.

Glad you are seeing some improvements. Cougar's always worth listening to.