Building A Tactic From The Beginning - THE DISCUSSION THREAD!

[shirajzl]

Fantastic read, Cleon.

Torskus, please do update us with your progress, your post has been inspiring.

[HamoudiLFC]

This leaves Sturridge, to either play as an Inside Forward or a Raumdeuter. I have little idea about that role, but the description of a wide poacher sounds ideal for Sturridge. Bit controversial moving such a key player out of position, but I believe he can flourish there if it is set up correctly.

I thought I was the only one who moved Sturridge out wide as an IF (A)/Raumdeuter. He really flourished there for me, cutting inside and moving wherever. Kind of like a free role out wide. Great minds think alike

[Torskus77]

I thought I was the only one who moved Sturridge out wide as an IF (A)/Raumdeuter. He really flourished there for me, cutting inside and moving wherever. Kind of like a free role out wide. Great minds think alike

So far Inside Forward is winning hands down. The role of inside forward appears to have been revamped somewhat for FM15, still not entirely sure what the Raumdeuter's role is, in theory it should work, but at the moment Inside Forward is playing much better. Makes sense I guess, as I want him to cut in to the space opened up by Balotelli/Lambert dropping deep.

[Colorado]

Really looking forward to following your posts Cleon, particularly your in-game stuff.

[Torskus77]

Unfortunately I wont be able to update about my tactic. Strange problem with my laptop, keeps just shutting off randomly when playing FM (and only FM) even though I stopped using 3d match engine and used 2d classic, still happening, no idea, but anyway until I can get it sorted not going to be able to continue. Looked quite promising though in the few games I played.

[Cleon]

Such a shame Torkus

I still hope to have something new up by the weekend

[MrHappypill]

Hello everyone and especially Cleon! Always kept a close eye on any thread started by yourself and so far I'm loving the information displayed in this one,

Since the beta became available I've been very keen on starting in one of the lowest leagues possible and chose the Vanarama premier league mostly as it sounded pretty funny and it gave me the chance to manage in England which is not something I normally do, I liked the look of a couple of teams and almost chose Bristol Rovers or Forest Green but given they were tipped for promotion I went with a team likely to be relegated Southport FC. A quick look at the squad and I was almost about to resign and pick someone else, the level of the players wasn't a surprise but the positions they could play in and the budget to bring in some fresh faces was poor, I've always chose a 4 2 3 1 formation which would usually rely on a very good amc linking play with the midfield and getting past the striker to contribute to alot of goals and assists. However the squad I picked has no players able to play behind a striker and a vast amount of guys comfortable as a dmc or defensive centre mid. The plus side to this was I was given the chance to try out a few formations and after a couple of pre season games I decided to go with this

Goalkeeper def

Right full back Support

Centre Def Defend

Centre Def Defend

Left full back Attack

Ballwinning Def Mid Defend

Right Wide Mid Support

Centre Mid R Attack

Centre Mid L Defend

Left Wide Mid Attack

Depp Lying Forward Attack.

Sorry No screenshots will get round to it!! My team instructions are Counter and structered I've got the team playing lower tempo get stuck in wider exploit the flanks direct passing and more disciplined. I've tinkered a wee bit with how I'll want them to cross the ball but not settled on anything yet. I also have my full backs tackling harder my wide mids cutting inside with the ball and my c/m support shooting less.

I played the season up until Jan and from the original squad I only added a back up goalkeeper and some back up wide mids and was sitting in 12th position and playing quite well but I don't feel I was playing the way I wanted to...the idea I have in my head is a very well organised outfit, who are hard to break down and great at bursting up the part to score on the counter. my team never looked comfortable and I conceded goals in almost every game and when I do score the goals were very rarely on the counter more likely from a set piece/follow up from a throw in or something like that. Obv the players I have maybe aren't great on the counter but is there anything yous can blatently see that I could improve on? Feel free to ask more questions on my setup as I said I'll get round to screen shots when I'm able to. Thanks.

[Mogashi]

I'm away from today so there won't be any updates until next weekend at the earliest. The plus side is the game will be out when I'm back so can start talking about the first match I play and all the analysis to see if the players do what I suspect they will or not and a whole load of other stuff

Great information Cleon, well-explained and easy to read. Nice job ! Looking forward to reading how you change tactics based on your matches !

[Cleon]

I've been waiting on purpose. Too many crosses being scored atm so I'm waiting to start this save properly until its been fixed. If not the thread won't really be helpful especially as I wanted to focus on play down the flanks. I will update the thread and have not abandoned this project just so you know

[daleuk8]

I've been waiting on purpose. Too many crosses being scored atm so I'm waiting to start this save properly until its been fixed. If not the thread won't really be helpful especially as I wanted to focus on play down the flanks. I will update the thread and have not abandoned this project just so you know

How do you try and combat this at the moment? Slightly frustrating

[Cleon]

I'm not having trouble defending against it, its just I'm scoring from them constant and its feels a bit like cheating. When you win 8-0 and reload the game to try and keep the scoreline down, you know there's an issue

[daleuk8]

I'm not having trouble defending against it, its just I'm scoring from them constant and its feels a bit like cheating. When you win 8-0 and reload the game to try and keep the scoreline down, you know there's an issue

oh ok I see:)

[the SLC]

I'm not having trouble defending against it, its just I'm scoring from them constant and its feels a bit like cheating. When you win 8-0 and reload the game to try and keep the scoreline down, you know there's an issue

my goodness that very impressive!! if only i had the knowhow. i certainly wouldnt be reloading!!!

[daleuk8]

Hi any news on an update?

[Cleon]

Hi any news on an update?

Since 3 days ago? Patience please.

[shirajzl]

I think he means an update on the tactical part of your blog.

[daleuk8]

Since 3 days ago? Patience please.

I just wondered if the patch had helped?

[daleuk8]

Since 3 days ago? Patience please.

And yes I meant on your thread not another patch

[Cleon]

I still need time to write it all up ?

[daleuk8]

I still need time to write it all up

So the patch helped then?

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Popping in here to ask for some feedback.

As you probably know, (Cleon/LLama ) I've had great success with the 4-3-3, for bug reasons I have to restart my save (BOOO!)

Anyway I want to break away from the IF/F9 system and get back to a two-striker system so a 4-4-2 sounds right for me. Here's the crux, I want a DM and I want an AM and I want wingers and I want three strikers and maybe five defenders. I hate whoever made the rules of restricting the team to 11 men, there's just so many positions I want to use! Do any of you have the same issue?

Anyway, I can live without wingers these days, because I'm a weird guy, I prefer to have a solid defence combined with a brutal attack. It's no surprise I always manage to be in the top 3 for goals scored and usually 1st place for least conceded - whereever I start, lower leagues or top leagues, the problem I have is being 'satisfied' with a set up that I can stick with. The 4-3-3 I've used Internationally and at club level in 14 and 15 now, so I do need something new.

Here's my thoughts and issues;

4-4-2 diamond;

Weakness? Width seems the biggest thing, obviously then, I need my wing backs to be super-attacking while still providing some stability. Wing Back / Attack seems to be the ideal role, I'm shy of CWB because they offer less defensively. Remember, I build from the old school 'attack win games, defence wins titles'.

CB's can be just plain old centre backs. Stopper/Cover split if they're daft enough to play a lone striker with no AMC support, flat back line if there is 2 or more in attack.

DM position is a curious one, I'm thinking; Half-back. Why? He's a third defender that should offer a decent heading option while still being a player who needs some vision to pull off some passes. I also like to think using him means we have three at the back when the WB's bugger off. An Anchor is far too static for my needs, I never get much use out of a ball winner or defensive mid, Half-back just seems to suit the 'screen' option while still being an additional man in the middle.

The advanced midfield 'trio';

This is where I'm having to struggle. I like my playmakers, but I'm mindful of not doing enough up front, this is what I've brainstormed;

DLP/S - This is the more 'defensive' midfielder, alongside the half back. The idea is, he's a creative force who maybe isn't so 'hot' in terms of flair and dribbling, he's the guy who co-ordinates things from a deeper area, same deal with the half back, except he has more license to get forward.

AP/A - I like the AP and DLP combo, the AP is always in my eyes a 'flair' player with good dribbling skills, the more 'exciting' midfielder who would be wasted in a deeper lying role.

Attacking midfield role: I'm torn on this, I'm thinking a Treq or an Enganche but I'm wondering if I have far too many playmakers in here. I'm thinking, no, because really this diamond shouldn't be strictly any different from a 4-3-3, in that; a false 9 is effectively the 'point' of the diamond. A treq would move, but an enganche would 'lock' the 'hook' to connect the creativity with the strike force.

Other curiosities: I'm tempted to ditch the DLP for a Roaming playmaker, but I'm not sure that's smart defensively. Hmm!

Attack:

Two strikers; One is dead certs to be an Attacking (advanced) Forward, no doubt about that. The flexibility here is that I can switch to a 'poacher' if I use youngsters who are less well rounded.

Second striker would be a deep lying forward on support, another option for passes, but I worry there's not enough moving forward.

---

On reflection, I think it would be a 4-1-1-3-1 in Attack, almost, but so far on 15 I see the AP/DLP usually stand in line with each other so, perhaps it would look a 4-1-2-2-1 depending on the interplay.

Shouts:

Retain possession,

Shorter passing,

Play out of defence,

Pass into space,

Work ball into box.

Philosophy:

Counter / Balanced or Rigid.

Any advice on what I might have missed? What I should be looking for or what I might need to change?

The idea is a deeper, possession based game with the central 'trio' or four pulling the strings and the wing backs offering the wide outlet and the front two, hopefully overloading and banging in the goals from the middle.

[spaced33]

Popping in here to ask for some feedback.

Anyway I want to break away from the IF/F9 system and get back to a two-striker system so a 4-4-2 sounds right for me. Here's the crux, I want a DM and I want an AM and I want wingers and I want three strikers and maybe five defenders. I hate whoever made the rules of restricting the team to 11 men, there's just so many positions I want to use! Do any of you have the same issue?

Definitely this!!!

[Cleon]

Sorry for not updating or responding to any questions but I was in hospital. Hopefully I can post the stuff that I have done over the weekend and catch up with the questions asked etc

[JWVG]

awesome, looking forward to it!

[aderow]

Sorry for not updating or responding to any questions but I was in hospital. Hopefully I can post the stuff that I have done over the weekend and catch up with the questions asked etc

I hope everything's ok now

[cheese123]

I tried your guide.. I find out there are some problems for me about creating game plan..

when I read,there are so many playing type like park the bus,counter attack,etc. there are some attribute we need to consider which one to used

nah my problem, I didnt know wheter my team are good dribbler or crosser. As the comparison on team report didnt show the comparison of those attribute

beside, I confuse. do we need all player to be good on that attribute? I found out,for counter attacking,we need speed.but most of central defender and some defensife midfield at my team are slow.but they are my best player on that position..I confused

[Cleon]

I tried your guide.. I find out there are some problems for me about creating game plan..

when I read,there are so many playing type like park the bus,counter attack,etc. there are some attribute we need to consider which one to used

nah my problem, I didnt know wheter my team are good dribbler or crosser. As the comparison on team report didnt show the comparison of those attribute

beside, I confuse. do we need all player to be good on that attribute? I found out,for counter attacking,we need speed.but most of central defender and some defensife midfield at my team are slow.but they are my best player on that position..I confused

It's just a rough guide of what to look out for, not a MUST.

You shouldn't use the team comparison either imo. What you should do is look at the best 11 that you'll be looking to play at the same time and then decide how they can play. As the comparison might make out you have better players than you actually have.

[cheese123]

Ok thanks.. now my confusion is about Team instruction and Player instruction. I see that the best way is see my team playing and see what should I ask them. But as begginer I feel thats so hard. Every match I have 11 player in the pitch and 1 ball. I confused which one I should see. And I dont know what to ask them

my real life example was atletico. they press high,counter attack fast,and good team work play. also rely on set pieces. but I dont know how to replicate them.Using counter tactic, my defence would deeper. I confused,since if I ask them get stuck in, its too risky conceding free kick in dangerous area.hassle also not good for deep defensife line..

[Cleon]

I've added a new bit. The other 2 parts of the bit I've just added will be posted soon too

[Kevaldo]

"Like"! ?

[Cleon]

=isignedupfornorealreason;9989255]Popping in here to ask for some feedback.

As you probably know, (Cleon/LLama ) I've had great success with the 4-3-3, for bug reasons I have to restart my save (BOOO!)

Sorry for the delay in replying been a hectic week for me.

4-4-2 diamond;

Weakness? Width seems the biggest thing, obviously then, I need my wing backs to be super-attacking while still providing some stability. Wing Back / Attack seems to be the ideal role, I'm shy of CWB because they offer less defensively. Remember, I build from the old school 'attack win games, defence wins titles'.

CB's can be just plain old centre backs. Stopper/Cover split if they're daft enough to play a lone striker with no AMC support, flat back line if there is 2 or more in attack.

DM position is a curious one, I'm thinking; Half-back. Why? He's a third defender that should offer a decent heading option while still being a player who needs some vision to pull off some passes. I also like to think using him means we have three at the back when the WB's bugger off. An Anchor is far too static for my needs, I never get much use out of a ball winner or defensive mid, Half-back just seems to suit the 'screen' option while still being an additional man in the middle.

I take it you've read my Defensive Arts thread about the 4-4-2 narrow diamond? Those principles can easily be translated to the wide diamond too if needed.

Personally I think the DLP defend is a better a screen than the halfback. The halfback on FM doesn't really work like you expect them to in real life. They rarely make up a back 3 on the game and is something that's being discussed a lot by SI currently.

DLP/S - This is the more 'defensive' midfielder, alongside the half back. The idea is, he's a creative force who maybe isn't so 'hot' in terms of flair and dribbling, he's the guy who co-ordinates things from a deeper area, same deal with the half back, except he has more license to get forward.

Why not flip it and have the less creative player as the screen? That way he also has less space to recover when he does venture forward. With the half back you want him to get forward and support attacks but that means he's also neglecting his job which is vital if you want wingbacks who bomb forward and support attacks. You want someone in the DMC spot who has a role that is very disciplined and doesn't venture forward much. If you want a DMC who goes forward then it makes more sense and is better balanced if you have the MC do that role instead.

AP/A - I like the AP and DLP combo, the AP is always in my eyes a 'flair' player with good dribbling skills, the more 'exciting' midfielder who would be wasted in a deeper lying role.

That's how I set up at Ajax and with the Bayern 4-1-4-1 I recreated last year.

Attacking midfield role: I'm torn on this, I'm thinking a Treq or an Enganche but I'm wondering if I have far too many playmakers in here. I'm thinking, no, because really this diamond shouldn't be strictly any different from a 4-3-3, in that; a false 9 is effectively the 'point' of the diamond. A treq would move, but an enganche would 'lock' the 'hook' to connect the creativity with the strike force.

Why does it have to be one or the other? Why not just choose what's best for certain situations? For sides who are stubborn and give you little room to move then someone like the treq would be a better idea. However against a side who will naturally give you space or who don't use a DMC then use someone like the enganche who will play in that space that is free. That's how I'd view it personally.

[cheese123]

I bored with small team. I will try to learn with bigger team. I use real madrid now

My concern is about midfield. I could play using 3 playmaker like in real life. and I also can play with more physically by introducing sami khedira.

both are good. And I still cant decide. Seems the only way to know which one the best is by seeing match. so how I see the match? I still a begginner who dont know much about analysis yet.. give me some advice please..

[Cleon]

I'm honestly not sure what you are asking help with? If you find the stuff in this thread not helpful I'm not sure what else I can actually advise.

[KongeMeier]

Another really good read, Cleon!

[Cleon]

Just added the 2nd part of yesterdays article

[shirajzl]

Good job, can't wait for further articles!

Have you talked about the mentality you use? I can't seem to find it...

[Cleon]

Good job, can't wait for further articles!

Have you talked about the mentality you use? I can't seem to find it...

No I've purposely left it out for now so people can't just copy what I've written so far without reading the content. I will talk about what I use and why but it'll be at a later date and will tie in with something else I've written for this. I want people to just have a think about what they are creating and why for now

[shirajzl]

Good, good, keep it up!

It's actually a good idea to prevent those "I used your exact same setup and lost three games, what's up with that" posts.

If you have your articles already written (as I think you said you did), keep churning them out, we won't be over-saturated

[aderow]

Cleon I was wondering how things were going with the 2 attacking full backs you were using? I remember you stating that it could be a potential issue with the space they could be leaving being exploited by the opposition.

[Kevaldo]

Great read again Cleon! Your posts always get the grey mater going!

I look forward to your "solutions" post with interest ... My first thoughts are you might change your RP to a DLP (s) to stiffen up your central mid area and you might change your forward line to a DLF (a) and a CF (s) to bring the more advanced forward back and push the more withdrawn forward further forward ... I also think you might be using one of the more structured mentality settings and a def/counter strategy based on how deep your DLF is coming so I look forward to seeing what that is too! Probably totally wrong ...

[peleJunior]

Did you switch to DLF(a) and CF(s) for that last move? Wonderful use/finding of space by the DLF(a) if it is the case.

[Swanb]

Great Article. Keep posting, i think i will only play FM when i finish reading your articles, can't wait to read how you solved some problems you saw on the match !

[Cleon]

Cleon I was wondering how things were going with the 2 attacking full backs you were using? I remember you stating that it could be a potential issue with the space they could be leaving being exploited by the opposition.

In this game none but I have something wrote that does go into more detail about this that I'll be posting.

Great read again Cleon! Your posts always get the grey mater going!

I look forward to your "solutions" post with interest ... My first thoughts are you might change your RP to a DLP (s) to stiffen up your central mid area and you might change your forward line to a DLF (a) and a CF (s) to bring the more advanced forward back and push the more withdrawn forward further forward ... I also think you might be using one of the more structured mentality settings and a def/counter strategy based on how deep your DLF is coming so I look forward to seeing what that is too! Probably totally wrong ...

Yeah I have quite a few options that I'll be running through then explain why I've gone with the solutions I choose

Did you switch to DLF(a) and CF(s) for that last move? Wonderful use/finding of space by the DLF(a) if it is the case.

No I couldn't change anything in this game, it was about seeing how the settings I selected worked out for the full 90 minutes

Great Article. Keep posting, i think i will only play FM when i finish reading your articles, can't wait to read how you solved some problems you saw on the match !

Cheers

[JWVG]

Hi Cleon,

quick question regarding the CM-pairing in a 4-4-2:

If you could choose between Real Madrids Toni Kroos/Luka Mordic (more creativity, passing skills)

and Man Citys Fernandinho/Yaya Toure (more defensive skills, better heading, strength),

what would you prefer (in general)?

:-)

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon,

quick question regarding the CM-pairing in a 4-4-2:

If you could choose between Real Madrids Toni Kroos/Luka Mordic (more creativity, passing skills)

and Man Citys Fernandinho/Yaya Toure (more defensive skills, better heading, strength),

what would you prefer (in general)?

:-)

The one who suits the roles you use or the one who has the attributes that you require for what you expect from the role. You have to look at the full set up and get the player who suits what you want overall not who is the best individual because he might not have what's required.

For example my DLF I didn't have anyone suitable for the role so I bought a leftback and have retrained him to be a striker now because he had the correct attributes for what I need from a player who plays the DLF role. I've done a post on this which I'll be posting as a separate thread later in the week.

[Super Bladesman]

Been playing with a similar tactic to Cleon, and I'm really struggling to deal with teams hitting me on the counter or when my defensive shape gets disrupted slightly. Also when the gap between defence and midfield opens up too much. Mainly it's the counter attacks down the wings - I have players there but they might as well not be.

Was so close to promotion form in my second season, but I'm slipping down the table fast after 1 win in 7 and I'm out of ideas as to how to fix it!

[stu_3145]

As always Cleon, awesome reading your stuff.

The only problem is that you have a life outside of fm and csnt therefore 24/7!

[Cleon]

Been playing with a similar tactic to Cleon, and I'm really struggling to deal with teams hitting me on the counter or when my defensive shape gets disrupted slightly. Also when the gap between defence and midfield opens up too much. Mainly it's the counter attacks down the wings - I have players there but they might as well not be.

Was so close to promotion form in my second season, but I'm slipping down the table fast after 1 win in 7 and I'm out of ideas as to how to fix it!

Your fullbacks attacking or more cautious? I find taking the fight to them higher up the pitch helps an awful lot.

Who are you using on the wings btw?

[Cleon]

As always Cleon, awesome reading your stuff.

The only problem is that you have a life outside of fm and csnt therefore 24/7!

Thank you

[Super Bladesman]

Your fullbacks attacking or more cautious? I find taking the fight to them higher up the pitch helps an awful lot.

Who are you using on the wings btw?

I've tried CWB/A, FB/A and FB/S so far - so yeah, pretty offensive. I believe in attack as the best form of defence, but in these cases the FBs are actually in position. They just don't do much, and the ball in cuts behind my central pairing and is easy pickings for the AI's invincible headers...

Harris on the left, and was Alcock on the right, but now Stefan Sabelli.

If my players were out of position I'd understand, fine. But they're not - they're just bystanders