The School of the Defensive Arts

[lewis999]

What formation is that with Herne? I agree with the part about the wording on the defensive strategy, the football it can produce is far away from defensive sometimes.

[herne79]

What formation is that with Herne? I agree with the part about the wording on the defensive strategy, the football it can produce is far away from defensive sometimes.

I'm using a take on the 4-1-2-3 DM Wide formation, but with both fullbacks pushed up to the wingback position - and given the role Wingback (Attack). They sit behind 2 players given a support duty and with a striker also given a support duty (either DLF, DF or F9 depending on who I play there).

Midfield is a CM(A), a CM(S) and a DM(D) at the base of the triangle.

[LeedsUnitedForLife]

so cleon what is your current tactic at sheffield. could u post a basic guide of your setup i really want to get my forwards defending like yours

[Cleon]

I've not wrote much yet but the stuff that is, can be found on my blog. The 442 stuff I posted 5 mins ago isn't a save, I just loaded up a game and created it to prove they do defend.

[LeedsUnitedForLife]

well bloody hell how do u do that hahahahaha

[johnnyyakuza78]

One question I have about this, is that you set out to create a defensive strategy and yet have a lot of attacking roles.

In the same way you say you want players doing what you say so go disciplined and rigid but also have some player roles which have high levels of expression like a treq.

How do you decide on these things and are you using roles to counterbalance your mentality?

[Cleon]

One question I have about this, is that you set out to create a defensive strategy and yet have a lot of attacking roles.

In the same way you say you want players doing what you say so go disciplined and rigid but also have some player roles which have high levels of expression like a treq.

How do you decide on these things and are you using roles to counterbalance your mentality?

The roles don't counter balance the mentality, what would the point be in that? You might as well just start off with the mentality that suits without going the long hard way about it. The mentality was selected because I wanted a low risk, slower spectrum across the whole board. I wanted to use the ball much wiser which is hard to do on higher mentalities because things are more rushed.

I do want to be rigid and more disciplined but you still need some creativity and I wanted the creative roles I selected to be more prominent, hence why rigid so the creative players can be creative without the rest of the team being more creative for their roles like going fluid would have done.

You decide on what's best for you by having an idea of the football style you want to create. Then decide if a higher/lower mentality is best suited to then. Then select roles that you think compliment this, i.e who creates? who scores and so on. Then watch matches and see how it plays out then amend the roles and refine them if you find something isn't working how you'd expect. I use roles that compliment the style and brand of football I am creating.

[johnnyyakuza78]

The part I struggle with is that you created a defensive tactic that worked very well defensively, yet if you look at the roles they are incredibly aggressive, almost the opposite of what I would expect to see in a defensive tactic. Only 2 of your players are on a defend duty, and even your support roles are the more aggressive variety.

I'm guess I'm asking when you are setting about creating a tactic you want to be predominantly defensive, what is the thought process when selecting the roles and individual duties.

[Cleon]

It's the exact same thought process as explained here;

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/403153-Building-A-Tactic-From-The-Beginning-And-Maintaining-It-Long-Term

You say my roles are aggressive but are they really in a low mentality? They're aggressive in an attacking or controlling mentality but not that aggressive in lower ones. They are still aggressive I guess but nowhere near the level I think you think they are. I always see people say 'but you don't use many defensive duties' yes and what? I'm not trying to build a park the bus tactic which I think you and other are confusing. The two are different things entirely. People see defensive and automatically think parked on the edge of my own box soaking up pressure but that's not the case. You can build many types of defensive football and it can be just as attacking as any other mentality wise. What differs is the urgency, creativeness and directness mainly. What this adds up to is on lower mentalities you can use the ball wiser and because of the slower pace really build a patient attacking system that attacks when the players think they'll succeed in the attack. In more attacking systems you will rush a lot more and that can't be off set, not really. That's why defensive football is better suited for what I set out to achieve. You can't achieve what I wanted in control/attacking.

[herne79]

When setting a mentality, I think the part that sometimes gets overlooked is that not only does it affect your overall team's mentality, but also individual player mentality.

So for example, a CWB(A) will be less aggressive (less risky) when using a defensive mentality than it will be if you select an attacking mentality. The roles and duties are the same, but how they play is different.

[johnnyyakuza78]

i guess there are different ways to defend, with and without the ball. This is a defensive tactic in the way that Spain constructed a defensive system, by holding possession and being cautious with it.

I'm constantly trying to create tactics that work by defending without the ball, in more the atletico mould. Maybe that's park the bus or counter football.

Either way, yeah even after all these years I find the relationship between roles and mentality incredibly vague and opaque.

[ajsr1982]

So I had a go at this, out of interest. I didn't set my team up exactly like yours. It was more of a 3-4-1-2 with wing backs. The idea being to sit deep then break forward at speed. The results were quite interesting, actually.

I found that I was getting games of 50+ shots, for both teams combined. I was able to break, and create chances, but I was conceding far too many shots. Of course, my final third was heavily congested with me sitting so deep, and many of those shots were blocked or easily saved. Yet the opposition always eventually found a way through. I had one game where the opposition had 46 shots to my 25, and I lost 4-3.

I suspect a couple of reasons for this:

1. My 3-4-1-2 formation has no-one in the (central) midfield stratum. Thus allowing the opposition to control that area of the pitch and dictate the play.

2. On top of that, the defensive mentality prioritises keeping shape over pressing the ball, which very probably exacerbates the problem above.

And so, my question in this: Do you think it's necessary to have people in all five strata when using a tactic such as this? It occurs to me that the short passing would require players to be spaced very close together, especially in the middle of the pitch, and the gap in my 3-4-1-2 creates a disjoint between the DM and the AM strata. Likewise, having seven players in the DM and the defence strata means that there isn't enough pressure on the ball. Thoughts?

[Doopyx]

Has anyone tried this in FM16?

[Cleon]

I have but I used the one from FM15 I used, not this one from 2014. This is the link;

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/421921-The-School-Of-Defensive-Arts-2015-The-3-4-3

[Doopyx]

Thanks i'll have a look. Did you have any success?

[themightyyak]

Default defensive mentality with no TIs:

What does this mean in terms of defensive line, pressing, width, tempo, passing length and creative freedom?

is it: deep, less, narrow, slow, short, little?

[loisvale]

This is very interesting thread which I read with interest. It is the kind of thread that gives you a renewed enthusiasm for playing the game. I'm not as savvy as others at playing the tactical game and taking one game as an example would like to test the waters to see if I'm going in the right direction with some of my thinking about how to tackle an opponent using this style. As I am experimenting and trying to improve my own tactical thinking I have started a game with Sheffield United using this exact system with the same roles/duties, team instructions and player instructions used by Cleon just to see what level of success I can have knowing that it is in the framework of a tactic that is stable (particularly when playing on the beta). After 12 games I am top of league one but unlike the master have lost three games. This is, in the main, as I do struggle with how to react during a game and do not fully understand the best ways to be exploiting space! I appreciate there is an enormous amount of information out there from various experts which I have devoured but the sheer amount of information can be daunting at times!

Hence the reason I would like to talk through a game I'm about to begin against Scunthorpe just to see if I am on the right track with my thinking and some of the decisions I am taking.

I'm not very good at posting pictures so hopefully my written explanation will give anyone wishing to comment an idea of what I'm doing.

So Scunthorpe, playing at home, are set up with a 5 – 2 – 1 – 2 – WB (I am unable to tell what roles and duties they have set – I believe there is a way of making that possible) and I am set up exactly as Cleon describes in his opening post (the idea is not to copy but I just wish to experiment in a stable information until I get the hang of it). Looking at their set up my mind seems to tell me that we are stronger in the midfield and there is space behind their midfield which I believe I can exploit. Their wingbacks are pushed right up and so I am assuming they have complete wingbacks or even wingers due to the fact they are positioned on the halfway line. Therefore, I also think there is space behind them. Therefore, prior to the game starting I decide to add the instruction exploit the middle and change and narrow focus to play wider. This is due to me thinking that we outnumber their midfield and there is space behind. By playing wider it also allows me to test out what space there is behind their pushed up wingbacks should I win the ball. Depending on how the game starts I may think about adding pass into space to take advantage of the space behind these two areas that I perceive there to be. I also decide to remove the retain possession in order that I can move the ball quicker to exploit the space.

Other thoughts I had but did not do initially was that given I am away from home and their wingbacks look very attacking maybe I should change the duties of our own wingbacks to make them more aware of their surroundings but as I've seen mentioned before maybe I should allow our wingbacks to give them something to think about instead. Another thought I had was to increase the tempo in order to press home any advantage there might be.

Anyway, I'm certainly going to experiment along those lines for this game but any comments on whether I'm completely getting this wrong or if I'm going on the right track would be greatly appreciated.

There is no doubt this is the way to enjoy the game more as it is too easy to download someone else's work and just let it run which I do not want to do.

[PequenoGenio]

..Nevermind

[wqwx]

Any chance to update pictures?

[Cleon]

6 hours ago, wqwx said:

Any chance to update pictures?

They all already work, so not sure what you're on about?

[wqwx]

14 saat önce, Cleon said:

They all already work, so not sure what you're on about?

I am unable to see pictures. But nevermind i just saw 2015 version. I am able to see 2015 versions pictures.

[Cleon]

9 hours ago, wqwx said:

I am unable to see pictures. But nevermind i just saw 2015 version. I am able to see 2015 versions pictures.

All the images work in this thread. So unsure of what the issue is.