Unrealistic pass completion ratio.

[Totalfootballfan]

**********************TEST WAS MADE IN UPDATE 14.1.3 AND OUTDATED NEW TEST UPDATE 14.1.4 IN POST BELOW***********************************

Hi All.

Pass completion ratio and number of passes per game is very important and informative measurement that shows how realistic ME is.

When I first saw FM14 ME my feelings was like “Oh, ME became just take ball and run run run run”.

Passing and holding ball are extremely punished If player stand with ball for few seconds he is immediately destroyed by tackling(especially in 14.1.3 it was hell) and when he tries pass it is intercepted most of time so “just run with ball” became much more powerful then in real football.

There’s many sites that can provide statistic from real football and we can compare it with FM.

Pass completion ratio:

Andrés Iniesta - Real Football(91%) vs FM14(73%)

Mesut Özil - Real Football(86%) vs FM14(65%)

Lionel Messi – Real Football(85%) vs FM14(65%)

Xavi - Real Football(93%) vs FM14(78%)

Luka Modric - Real Football(91%) vs FM14(70%)

David Silva - Real Football(88%) vs FM14(72%)

Cristiano Ronaldo - Real Football(81%) vs FM14(61%)

Franck Ribéry - Real Football(85%) vs FM14(64%)

I can continue this list but pattern clearly seen as you can see average pass complete ration in FM14 lower 20% than in real football. This is big difference I must say. Teams achieving possession not for passing like in real football but for running with ball.

I took pass completion ratio from first FM14 season it must be very close to what is going on in real football right now. You can post your own screenshots from your save and we will compare them to real football. Please post from first or second season and at least +15 games played and from playable leagues with matches played in full detail.

P.S. I think I must clarify a little bit. I didn’t bring all this players in my team and played season and now telling you statistic.

All this players randomly taken from AI controlled teams in playable leagues with matches played in full detail in first FM14 season.

You can check by yourself if you are in first/second season and at least 15+ games played in major leagues than just go and see random world star players and compare their Pas R and Drb with real life statistic.

[Totalfootballfan]

Same unrealistic picture with Dribbles made per 90 minute. It’s 70% higher in game then real life for players like Nymar, Cristiano Ronald, Franck Ribéry, Eden Hazard and other.

I think I must clarify a little bit. I didn’t bring all this players in my team and played season and now telling you statistic.

All this players randomly taken from AI controlled teams in playable leagues with matches played in full detail in first FM14 season.

You can check by yourself if you are in first/second season and at least 15+ games played in major leagues than just go and see random world star players and compare their Pas R and Drb with real life statistic.

[Auqakuh]

RE passing - it's your tactics (or those used by the AI). I can't give a real comparison because my passing stats from my current save will be from the Beta, in the first season, and the version before current for the second. Xavi did have quite low passing completion that year (75%) but has very high in the current patch (95%... and he's 36!). However, he is playing for my team currently... and...

Only one of my players has lower than 84% pass completion, and that's the centre-forward. Typically my side has 70%+ possession and 90% pass completion averaged over the whole team.

On the dribbling, though, I agree, but suspect it might just be how the match engine determines what a "dribble" is versus what, say, ProZone determine a "dribble" is. The stats are not directly comparable.

[Fond Foat]

Auquakuh,

If it is the tactics used by the AI then it is an issue because those tactics are distorting the OPs statistics. I would think therefore he has made a valid point that could be looked at by others who have played with this version more..

[keithfc]

Passing and holding ball are extremely punished If player stand with ball for few seconds he is immediately destroyed by tackling(especially in 14.1.3 it was hell)

=> it has existed since FM 13. The amount of tackle is crazy. The highest amount of tackle I have met in FM13 was over 120 times tackle for the opposite team. It is extremely crazy. Fm 14.14 also exists about 60 tackles for the opposite team when it is going crazy.

[Telemachos]

Hi All.

Pass completion ratio and number of passes per game is very important and informative measurement that shows how realistic ME is.

I would never guess you are doing something wrong in your tactics, it is obviously the game at fault.

What must really be messed up is, I can take a scrub, with passing of 9, from Serie C2 in Italy and have him average above 80% passing. So by your logic, my scrub should be passing well over 100%.

Really, as mentioned above- it is your tactic- really it is.

Passing and holding ball are extremely punished If player stand with ball for few seconds he is immediately destroyed by tackling(especially in 14.1.3 it was hell)

So the real question is, what do you exactly expect a defender to do if someone is standing in front of him with the ball for a few seconds? Obviously not try to do his job and win possession.

[Totalfootballfan]

Really, as mentioned above- it is your tactic- really it is.

Telemachos, I don’t know what to say. Did you read my post? Statistic sample was taken from random TOP clubs AI controlled from first season. All leagues was active/playable in full match detail. How on the earth it could my tactic?

Teams:

Barcelona

Bayern Munich

Real Madrid

Borussia Dortmund

Juventus

Manchester City

AC Milan

Arsenal

Paris Saint Germain

Manchester United

Chelsea

For example, what do we know about players such as Xavi, Andrés Iniesta, Luka Modric? What is their world “trademark”? 90+% pass success rate is one of their trademarks. Without it they are faceless and this is major measurement how realistic ME is and when after first season you checking statistic for all known world players and comparing with real football stats it could tell you well how realistic is ME.

All other opinions like “All Defenders don’t know how defend! Very bad ME” “Strikers don’t know how to score” are very subjective. Only way to show that something isn’t realistic it compare it real life stats.

[Fabregas_04]

The level of tackling is still insanely high. I just recently had a game vs Villa and Agbonlahor made something like 10 tackles with 8 successful ones. He has tackling of 4.......

[keithfc]

Statistical tells very thing. The highest amount of tackle player is Lucas Leiva in BPL. He has 5.1 tackles per game only. Check this out.

http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/3853/Stages/7794/PlayerStatistics/England-Premier-League-2013-2014

What I think the source of the problem in ME is the ability of holding the ball, protecting the ball is extremely weak.

What I have seen in the game is, Ozil, with 20 first touch, 18 technique, 16 dribble, always lost the ball by opposite defender slide tackle all the time. But it does not necessary the high rating of tackle ability to win the ball back from Ozil. May be the opposite defender only needs to have a single digital rating on tackle to win the ball back from Ozil over 10times. So do you think it is make sense?

[Totalfootballfan]

Guys, I must tell you the accuracy of this test is very high and I’m impressed of such accuracy.

I repeated this test 5 times in patch 14.1.3 and what do you think? The difference every test in passing success rate was not more then 1-2%!

Now in patch 14.1.4 I did the same test. I repeated this test 5 times. Conditions of the test was the same as in patch 14.1.3 – 4 Leagues active/playable: (England)English Premier Division,(Spain) LIGA BBVA,(German) German First Division,(Italy) Serie A,(France) Ligue 1. Match details – full. Results after full fist season played.

Look how things changed from 14.1.3 to 14.1.4:

Pass completion ratio:

Andrés Iniesta - Real Football(91%) vs Patch 14.1.3(73% )vs Patch 14.1.4(81%)

Mesut Özil - Real Football(86%) vs Patch 14.1.3 (65%) vs Patch 14.1.4(82%)

Lionel Messi – Real Football(85%) vs Patch 14.1.3 (65%) vs Patch 14.1.4(75%)

Xavi - Real Football(93%) vs Patch 14.1.3 (78%) vs Patch 14.1.4(86%)

Luka Modric - Real Football(91%) vs Patch 14.1.3 (70%) vs Patch 14.1.4(80%)

David Silva - Real Football(88%) vs Patch 14.1.3 (72%) vs Patch 14.1.4(76%)

Cristiano Ronaldo - Real Football(81%) vs Patch 14.1.3 (61%) vs Patch 14.1.4(77%)

Franck Ribéry - Real Football(85%) vs Patch 14.1.3 (64%) vs Patch 14.1.4(76%)

We know that patch 14.1.4 has reduced number of tackles and interceptions as you can see all players has received 10-12% boost in their passing accuracy. Still it’s lower about 10% comparing to real life but now it’s more realistic! Good job SI!

Still in patch 14.1.4 I see Successful Dribble made per 90 twice higher compare real statistic for world top players but I understand it’s more complex thing then pass success rate.

Here my last test save(patch 14.1.4.) You can check things by yourself.This is test number 5 as I told difference in previous tests was not more 1-2%.

http://yadi.sk/d/13Z0Z2c-DhEeb

P.S. Ehhh It would be nice to compare total number tackles per game in patch 14.1.4 vs real life stats but it more time consuming and I’m lazy -))

[Telemachos]

Telemachos, I don’t know what to say. Did you read my post? Statistic sample was taken from random TOP clubs AI controlled from first season. All leagues was active/playable in full match detail. How on the earth it could my tactic?

My post's intent wasn't to bash your tactic or the AI- it's to say that your reasoning is flawed.

(I just got home but...) Here is my current season with 9 games left to play in my current season. As you can see, I don't have a Xavi or Messi on my team.

In fairness, here is Juventus who cinched Serie A just recently that is completely AI controlled:

This is 4 seasons into a save. I personally don't think passing is flawed. This season did include the majority of being played in 14.1.3 with the more later being 14.1.4 patch. I am sure there are other problems and passing as well as other stats involved are just side-effects of the issues.

[Auqakuh]

Auquakuh,

If it is the tactics used by the AI then it is an issue because those tactics are distorting the OPs statistics. I would think therefore he has made a valid point that could be looked at by others who have played with this version more..

I wasn't being critical. My point was that the problem lies not in the engine, per se, but in how the AI is manipulating the engine. The AI managers are seriously struggling to create tactics with good ball retention, at least in my experience. Barcelona, for example, have not finished higher than 3rd in the Spanish league in the past four seasons in my save. Likewise, Arsenal's best finish was 2nd - mostly much lower than that (4th, 6th, 9th, then Wenger retired and they brought in Pulis[!]).

The only team I've encountered that can keep the ball against my side is Chelsea, and they do it by kicking as us hard as Stoke while being as technically gifted as a great Brazil team, which hardly counts - since they don't really keep it so much as win it back an awful, awful lot.

Here's my team's stats as of February 2017:

(Yes, Zlatan is still scoring... often. He can't run, though...)

[Totalfootballfan]

Here is my current season with 9 games left to play in my current season. As you can see, I don't have a Xavi or Messi on my team.

Telemachos, I don’t understand what are trying to say posting this screenshots. It’s only very good support my tests witch was made in patch 14.1.3.

In your first screenshot I only see 10 players who made 15+ full appearance:

1) Fulvio Rapino. Apps – 22. Pss R - 78%

2 )Wesley Jobello. Apps – 24. Pss R - 75%

3) Andrea Magrassi. Apps – 28. Pss R - 74%

4) Matteo Magnoni. Apps – 29. Pss R - 70%

5) Loic Gravina. Apps – 24. Pss R - 65%

6) Philtzgerald Mbaka. Apps – 31. Pss R - 79%

7) Valerio Mantovani. Apps – 29. Pss R - 77%

8) Claudio Santini. Apps – 18. Pss R - 83%

9) Mattia Sandrini. Apps – 25. Pss R - 76%

10) Domenico Bronzi. Apps – 30. Pss R - 78%

As you can see average passing success rate is 75.5% - this is nothing special such passing rate have very average clubs from bottom table.

Lets see real life statistics passing rate of Barcelona this season.

1) Lionel Messi – 83%

2) Neymar – 85%

3) Andrés Iniesta – 91%

4) Xavi – 93%

5) Sergio Busquets -93%

6) Carles Puyol – 90%

7) Gerard Piqué – 91%

8) Francesc Fábregas – 86%

9) Dani Alves – 87%

10) Alexis Sánchez – 81%

As you can see real life passing success rate of Barcelona this season 88%. My test in patch 14.1.3 shows that pass rate of Barcelona in FM14 was 68% and all passing rate across the board was lower 15-20%.

Ok, let's see your second screenshot that shows passing rate of Juventus.

Paul Progba – your screenshot 68% vs real life 82%

Kwadwo Asamoah – your screenshot 67% vs real life - 87%

Should I continue ?

Everything proves even your own screenshots that passing rate in 14.1.3 was lower 20% comparing real life statistics.

Why arguing such obvious things?

P.S. As I posted above tests made in new update 14.1.4 show that all players receive 10-15% boost in passing success rate but still lower a little bit about 10% comparing real life statistic.

[Auqakuh]

But as I just posted, 37 year old Xavi is getting 92% in my save.

His stats last season were only fractionally worse at 91% - after he joined my team in January. At Barca (when he was picked, which wasn't that often, being 36 and all), he was getting 76%. Last season I was still using 14.1.3. Most of this season has been 14.1.4.

It really depends on more than the individual (as in real life)...

It's how the team is set up around them that influences their passing success. Their own attributes will tilt it one way or another (IE towards a higher number or towards a lower number), but it's not the prime determinant.

[Totalfootballfan]

Auqakuh, and this is why I didn’t make test far away from first season and for my own players. Because my tactic can effect results and for example after 5 seasons player stats can change, AI team philosophy can change as well.

all tests was made first season that must be close to real statistic. Success passing rate for many players is their trademark.

[Soccer]

I am seeing a similar issue in FM11. I look at the pass completion stats of AI teams, particularly top clubs (e.g. Barcelona) and in every match, their pass completion rate is very low compared to their real life counterparts. E.g. from a random game:

Xavi - Completed 42 out of 65 passes

Messi - Completed 38 out of 64 passes

Both are less than 70%, whereas in real life, they complete somewhere around 90% of their passes.

[DuncanJM]

Auqakuh and Telemachos, are you just disagreeing for the sake of it? Total Football Fan is highlighting the poor passing accuracy/ball retention of AI teams to highlight the fact that AI teams adapt badly to the ME tactically in keeping ball. What is there to disagree with??

This is a very interesting study, and shows why a lot of players find the game too easy after 3,4,5 seasons. This is because the AI really do not build solid tactics particularly well and how, after a few years of changing, improving, and stamping our own authority on our teams, even the top AI sides become quite easy to beat.

I know it must be very difficult for SI to build into the game solid AI progression, but imo in needs development work for future versions.

[El Presidente]

It's a PC game. Not real life footy.

Is the simulation accurate? No it's not for many reasons. One being gameplay.

Will the game become better? Yes but remember that with so many variables in the match engine you can "tweak" one part of it and two more will need fixing. So it's kind of a balancing act.

[milnerpoint]

Unless the AI manager sets up Barca in the exact same way as real life, i dont see the point of the test myself.