Pairs & Combinations FM2015 - UPDATED

[llama3]

Well if the whole team performs well then don't worry too much about any individual ratings. However - you could have an A(D), DLP(S) & CM(A) - which would give a more direct threat from deep, and better deep distribution of the ball?

[davidmn27]

Thanks for the response. How would that give better distribution? Is the B2B a poor role to choose? I will give it a try.

I know what you mean about the team performing well and not worrying about individual ratings, but its a shame to obvious talent not getting the credit it deserves. Feels as though certai roles are very difficult to make effective.

thanks again

[llama3]

It's about getting more movement. So getting a forward on a support role to drop deeper - a midfielder or defender on a more attacking duty to get forward more. What is your team like?

[davidmn27]

Control at home with pressing, counter away without pressing.

From right to left-

GK - Shez

WB A - Coleman

CD C - Koscielny

CD D - Mert

FB S - Gibbs

DLP D - Matic (close down less)

DLP S - Ramsey

CM A - Wilshere (get further fwd)

IF S - Ozil (roam, sit narrower)

IF A - Wilcott/Ox (stay wider)

CF S - Destro/Gabiadini (move to channels)

[AndersSchm]

Playing a tactic with Arsenal similar to the one outlined in the first post, however it seems very ineffective at home at breaking down teams who put 11 men behind the ball such as Stoke, Hull, Crystal Palace...

How do you stop the game fizzling out to a 0-0? I've pushed higher, harassed opponents, pushed even higher, worked ball into box, play wider... whatever setting you choose doesn't seem to alter the clock just ticking down with nothing happening.

[davidmn27]

I'm fine at home, even against defensive teams - try being more disciplined, slower tempo, dont hassle and drop deeper, this should help create space

[davidmn27]

Anyine notice any flaws in this setup? I'm really struggling away from home.

counter, without pressing, higher tempo, pass into space.

From right to left-

GK - Shez

WB A - Coleman

CD C - Koscielny

CD D - Mert

FB S - Gibbs

DLP D - Matic (close down less)

DLP S - Ramsey

CM A - Wilshere (get further fwd)

IF S - Ozil (roam, sit narrower)

IF A - Wilcott/Ox (stay wider)

CF S - Destro/Gabiadini (move to channels)

[jac4121993]

You don't really need two DLP in your side. Try changing Matic to an Anchor Man or DM/D

[lucas.lotr]

Thanks llama3! I guess it's back to the drawing board for me... Of course when I manage to balance things out more I will have to take a long hard look at how I select my players, I am pretty sure there is a lot of room for improvement in that area too, but such are the pains of a beginer in such a complex game.

[Arab]

Playing a tactic with Arsenal similar to the one outlined in the first post, however it seems very ineffective at home at breaking down teams who put 11 men behind the ball such as Stoke, Hull, Crystal Palace...

How do you stop the game fizzling out to a 0-0? I've pushed higher, harassed opponents, pushed even higher, worked ball into box, play wider... whatever setting you choose doesn't seem to alter the clock just ticking down with nothing happening.

Drop deeper will give you more space

[MeesterCat]

Just to say that I haven't forgotten about my promise to post some updates at my attempts to use a Treq/CF-S/AF-A combo. I'm a slow player and I'm just working through some pre-season games to try and get tactical familiarity up before looking closer at it. I'm also slowed by retraining Andre Ayew into a CF.

[llama3]

Just to say that I haven't forgotten about my promise to post some updates at my attempts to use a Treq/CF-S/AF-A combo. I'm a slow player and I'm just working through some pre-season games to try and get tactical familiarity up before looking closer at it. I'm also slowed by retraining Andre Ayew into a CF.

How does it feel so far?

[MeesterCat]

The movement has at times looked really good. The movement of the CF and Treq especially seem to really open up things up for the AF, but the through ball has been a little lacking. I'm hoping that as the players get sharper and the familiarity increases things will improve, but so far there is promise.

Mind you, it's mostly been MLS teams so far...

[Cry havoc]

Dear Llama3,

Thank you for this thread. After reading through, I feel I have a much better idea of how to go about building a tactic around the available players and the balance required by duties. That said, I still seem to be struggling.

Not wanting to jump in at the deep end and being fond of Arsenal regardless, I've opted to attempt to replicate the tactics outlined in the OP. I've started over a number of times trying to get this right and have come up against a number of recurring problems.

-Home form seems fine but away form is significantly harder to maintain. Regardless of the mentality - Control, Standard or Counter - the team finds it a lot harder to control possession away from home, even against sides a division below. I've watched Away games through on Full Match, tweaking team instructions back and forth, without success in this regard.

-Following on from the Away difficulties above, when watching games in Full I feel more than a little uncertain what changes I should be making to improve my teams performance. Some aren't too difficult to spot - e.g if we're getting quickly closed down I'll increased the pace, if the opposition seems to be slipping through the back line I'll pull the defense deeper - but the overall way these instructions and Mentality all come together seems really unclear to me, in some circumstances it seems as though I could actually benefit from raising the Mentality rather than dropping it but I simply don't feel confident about what needs to be done.

-'Push Higher Up' has proven to be tactical suicide in general. If the opposition aren't moving the ball around quickly then it seems a pressing game is required, and it makes sense that 'Push Higher Up' and 'Hassle Opponents' go well as you outline in the OP, but Away from home this leads to lethal balls over or through my defense and has also been incredibly risky even at home, regardless of the quality of the opposition. Combined with poor possession control, this can cause me to lose friendly Away games against teams a division below. Is this a weakness in the formation, the team, or just something that should be avoided altogether?

If you don't mind, I would also like to get your advice on making a 4-2-3-1 formation work. Assigning duties for this formation is a puzzle: the only players out wide are the DR and DL but putting them both to WB/A seems incredibly risky. The two CMs I'm unsure about too - xx/D and xx/S seems the way to go but if the WBs are both A then it also seems like both CMs should be on Defend duty to compensate. Finally, assigning the duties and roles for 3 AMCs is a conundrum in itself - all Support seems a little too conservative, all attack counter-productive - can you have too many APs? I'm at a loss really and am beginning to believe the formation is deeply flawed regardless of roles or duty

Sincerely,

Cry havoc

[llama3]

In away games I am much more cautious, and less likely to press. I am much more likely to use my DM variant, and am happy to let possession slide a little in those games. Having said that, possession is simply best aided by having players in good positions. My current system is slightly different to that in the OP. You can have too many AP's - there need to be enough runs in behind or laterally to make them work. But currently an AP(S) at AML and T(A) at AMC is what I am using, with a CF(S) at STC and the DLP at MRC has been replaced by a BBM because I need a few forward runs when in possession that the Trequartista won't give. I don't use 2 lots of wing backs because of the direct wide right.

[Cry havoc]

How is that system working out? Something I noticed over the course of the season was that our goals were all very similar to one another. Walcott/Chamberlain only scored when played through as the opposition defense moved up leaving them clean through. Ozil can't score to save his life and Cazorla was largely underwhelming, occasionally popping up with moments of brilliance but generally a pedestrian.

It all came down to Giroud, who fortunately had the quality to carry all that weight on his shoulders, although when he had an off day things got tough. I can't say for sure but it felt as though most of his goals came off his head - which is fine in terms of getting the result, but not what I'd like to see in an ideal world. Ozil didn't really shine all that often, so I'm wondering if the Treq role changes this? Looking back on it now, as an AP Ozil would roam around keeping things moving as instructed but wasn't the man playing the final ball in often enough

[llama3]

It's working very well so far. We have a lot of variety in attack, and no single player scoring all the goals. Ozil took a long while to settle in this season, but since I have hit November-December he has been brilliant.

[AndersSchm]

I'm fine at home, even against defensive teams - try being more disciplined, slower tempo, dont hassle and drop deeper, this should help create space

Going dreadfully with this formation at home as Arsenal as it isn't able to break down defences. Just endured 45 mins of playing Aston Villa at home 5-3-2, 60% possession, 2 shots off target to show for it by half time.

Started off hassling, normal depth, more expressive, normal tempo. After 20 mins changed to more disciplined, slower tempo, don't hassle and drop deeper to try to get them to create something but didn't have much effect.

Watching it we pass the ball around, never find an opening and then eventually usually Ozil will pass to Benteke and break up the move - or somebody crosses to Giroud who twice won in the air (hence 2 off target shots) but the rest of the time it is headed clear.

[llama3]

Anders - what is your tactical setup?

[Ronald]

Can this be applied to FM 13?

[aderow]

Can this be applied to FM 13?

I imagine it can be applied to any FM as it uses basic footballing logic.

[aderow]

So I have no idea what I want to do with the AM. Any suggestions?

[llama3]

Can this be applied to FM 13?

Yes, in fact I started writing it whilst still playing FM13.

So I have no idea what I want to do with the AM. Any suggestions?

Got a few ideas - AM(A) will link him up with van Persie a bit more, a Shadow Striker will keep him further up the pitch, although might reduce his overall influence in play.

[yonko]

So I have no idea what I want to do with the AM. Any suggestions?

I'd say it depends how the players around him are set up in terms of individual instructions. Are Kagawa and Januzaj set up to come inside?

[aderow]

I'd say it depends how the players around him are set up in terms of individual instructions. Are Kagawa and Januzaj set up to come inside?

Yes they are. As well as set to roam.

[PatrickD27]

Looking for some help with my Creator - Scorer partnership. I want my Advanced Playmaker to supply through balls to my Advaced Forward and Inside Forward.

I play a 4-2-3-1 with Udinese with a Balanced Standard approach.

Lineup is

GK (D)

FB (A) CB (D) CB (D) WB (S)

DLP (D) BWM (S)

W (S) AP (S) IF (A)

AF (A)

I tend to find that my BWM and AP occupy the same space sometimes when going forward. I also find that my Advanced Forward drops too deep and my Winger and Inside Forward have nobody ahead of them to pass to.

Is there a better combination of roles for this setup?

[llama3]

Either switching the AP to a Treq may help him find space, or get the BWM changed to a more disciplined role could help. Swapping the duties over on your central mids could help too.

[Str0aK]

Starting a new save with Southampton. Played 4-2DM-3-1 narrow in the previous save but now that Lallana and Rodriguez are naturally wide players in the update I'm looking to set up a 4-1-2-2-1 as my base tactic. This is what I'm going for:

Control/Balanced

GKd (distribute to defenders)

CWBa (run wide with ball)

DCd (pass shorter, mark tighter)

DCd (pass shorter, mark tighter)

WBs

DMd (shoot less often, fewer risky passes)

DLPs

APa

IFs (roam from position)

IFa (sit narrower, roam from position)

CFs (roam from position, dribble less)

Push Higher Up, Hassle Opponents, Stay On Feet, Pace Into Space, Work Ball Into Box.

Does everything look okay here? Wasn't too sure about giving the centre backs tight marking but my thinking behind it was that if the opposition beat my high press I don't want an easy out ball to their striker(s).

[llama3]

Not sure why you wanted to change from a 4-2-3-1/4-2DM-3-1 you still have the players for it. For the record you lack midfield runners (DM & DLP will offer almost none, the AP(A) only some. The CF is dropping deep and the IF(S) won't attack the box, leaving only 1 man getting in behind. Not really enough. Staying on feet with an aggressive press is possible, but risky. I would generally only tight mark in a deeper system, too much risk of being spun and the opponent getting in behind easily.

[Str0aK]

Not sure why you wanted to change from a 4-2-3-1/4-2DM-3-1 you still have the players for it. For the record you lack midfield runners (DM & DLP will offer almost none, the AP(A) only some. The CF is dropping deep and the IF(S) won't attack the box, leaving only 1 man getting in behind. Not really enough. Staying on feet with an aggressive press is possible, but risky. I would generally only tight mark in a deeper system, too much risk of being spun and the opponent getting in behind easily.

Cheers for the reply. Yeah I know I still have the players for it I just want to try something new/different. I was worried about the lack of runners from midfield but figured it could work since my DLP (Schneiderlin) has gets forward whenever possible as a PPM. Lallana at IF(s) also has gets into opposition area. I'll try it for a few more games, if it's not working I'll switch the DLP to BBM.

I've had a rough start to the season. Struggling against 4-2-3-1. Seems like my pressing doesn't effect them at all and once they beat the initial press their AML/R/C have a lot of time to create chances. You think that could be down to having stay on feet? Took tight marking off the centre backs. I'm considering dropping hassle opponents altogether and just keeping my shape. Just seems like the 4-1-2-2-1 doesn't have enough advanced players to be really effective with hassle opponents unless I change from push higher up to much higher defensive line, which I'm hesitant to do because Lovren is my only centre back with decent pace.

One positive has been the link up play between my IF(a) and CF(s). Rodriguez has 6 goals in 8 games, Lambert 4 in 5 with a couple assists to Jay. Not getting much out of my IF(s) but the combination between him and my CWB has been pleasing.

Also, my second formation is:

4-2-3-1 (Control, Fluid)

GK(d)

WB(a)

DC(d)

DC(d)

FB(s)

CM(d)

DLP(s)

IF(s)

AP(s)

IF(a)

DLF(a)

Push Higher Up, Hassle Opponents, Work Ball Into Box, Pass Into Space.

Same problem with not enough runners?

[llama3]

Yeah same problem basically - but the important caveat - if what you see yourself as you are playing works, then ignore all the theory in the world.

[Str0aK]

I'm gonna drop hassle opponents and push higher up from the 4-1-2-2-1 and see how that goes. I think it makes more sense to be a bit deeper with that formation anyways. Give my midfielders more time and space to create something in front of them rather than trying to pen the opposition into their own half with limited room for my playmaker to operate.

I'll use that as more of a possession based tactic to control games. Still want to try to get an aggressive pressing tactic going so I'll work on that with the 4-2-3-1. Contemplating changing the AMC and STC to AP(a) and AF(a).

[aderow]

After some thinking about what I want from my CMs, I decided to give this try. I'll let know if things go horribly horribly wrong

[aderow]

Well it seems that the 2 AP-a's generally sit right on top of each other a lot of the time. Something I remember you mentioning in the past.

Tbh, it is something I don't really agree with. I feel like 2 playmakers should be able to accommodate each other on the pitch even when given the same set of instructions.

It's unfortunate as I couldn't really find a role that really got the CMs doing what I want them to do.

[aderow]

Yeah I've changed one of the AP-a's to an AP-s. It makes more sense in my head given how I have set up CMs in other tactics in the past and given what I need them to do.

[llama3]

They behaving differently off the ball as well as on the ball?

[aderow]

They do actually.

[Double0Seven]

What is the main difference between a DLF(S) and T(A)?

I have tried to recreate the T(A) role by giving my DLF(S)move into channels and roam.

This way he will roam and move into spaces just like the ,he will link up the midfield and create chances just like the T(A). Does the T(A)also look to score since he has finishing as highlighted attribute? Does this mean that he will also create less chances then the DLF(S)?

I play with one striker so im looking for a good balance between creating and scoring.

[llama3]

What is the main difference between a DLF(S) and T(A)?

I have tried to recreate the T(A) role by giving my DLF(S)move into channels and roam.

This way he will roam and move into spaces just like the ,he will link up the midfield and create chances just like the T(A). Does the T(A)also look to score since he has finishing as highlighted attribute? Does this mean that he will also create less chances then the DLF(S)?

I play with one striker so im looking for a good balance between creating and scoring.

A DLF will tend to drop deeper centrally, and focus more on linking play to teammates, rather than constantly looking to be a creative force with a killer pass. The DLF will often look to be the passing option, and will hold the ball up too, the Treq will try and keep the ball moving around instead. The Treq will get on the end of goalscoring moves too because his mentality will always keep him involved in the attack. The DLF is designed to drop deeper to support moves primarily, the Treq because of mentality and movement is often a great goalscoring threat.

[aderow]

And I'd imagine the DLF(A) would be even more of a goal scoring threat. You can even instruct him to roam, move into channels, and play more risky passes.

[SLB]

Hi guys,

Long time lurker here on this thread, but have found the information here invaluable. After a successful (in some ways) 1st season with Coventry City in an online game, I am really struggling in the 2nd season with a much stronger squad. I play 2 variants of a 4-2-3-1 and have struggled to get going in the early stages of the 2nd season and am currently lying 1pt above the drop zone, when I expected to be challenging for the title.

At Home when I'm the favourites I enjoy playing Direct, Attacking football.

4-2-3-1 Attacking / Fluid.

Instructions: More Direct Passing, Drill Crosses, Stick to Positions, Get Stuck In.

GK-D: Sam Johnstone

(DR) WB-A: Blair Adams

(DCR) DC-D: Jack Stephens

(DCL) DC-D: Jordan Willis

(DL) FB-S: Cyrus Christie

(MCR) DLP-S: John Fleck

(MCL) BWM-D: Connor Thomas

(AMC) Trequarista: Chuks Aneke / Billy Knott

(AMR) W-A: Carl Baker

(AML) IF-S/AP-S: Franck Moussa / Tom Lawrence

(SC) AF-A: Shaquile Coulthirst

Away from home, or in tougher games I play a similar style, but more possession based.

4-2-3-1, Counter, Balanced

Instructions: Short Passing, Pass Into Space, Sits Narrower, Stick to Positions, Get Stuck In, Drill Crosses

GK-D: Sam Johnstone

WB-A: Blair Adams

DC-D: Jack Stephens

DC-D: Jordan Willis

FB-S: Aaron Phillips

CM-D: Connor Coady

DLP-S: John Fleck

IF-S: Franck Moussa

W-A: Carl Baker

AP-S: Chuks Aneke (roam from position)

AF-A: Shaquile Coulthirst

Reason for the instructions is simple. I am one of the most creative and best passing teams in the league. I also have the quickest attack with the best movement. So I am trying to take advantage of my strengths.

The following is a link to a couple of games where my team fell apart.

http://rapidshare.com/share/68245798F02BD4FC356620E437DB4848

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

SLB

[llama3]

To be honest SLB - if you open up your own thread you'll probably get more support, otherwise your post will get lost in here.

[SLB]

Thanks for the advice. I'll give that a go.

[DaLima9]

Returning to FM after a couple of years hiatus, this thread was a great read.

It helped me in the effort to get Wolves promoted the first year, as expected, dominating the league until a slump of form hit, when we we're 15 points clear, did amass 112 points with a flat 4-4-2 - one of my favorite tactics.

I am now in the Championship, and while I've strengthen my squad, I am struggeling with getting a good setup going. My main worries are, that my team isn't strong enough for the style of play, and I am looking to take in some advice.

I can't tell you all my squad off the top of my head, but in general my defence and central midfield is strong, ML/AML and MR/AMR is hampered by the fact, that most are suited in the AM positions, but not so much the ML/MR, which I worked around by having my team attack more rather than defend. But I fear a 4-4-2, with 2 dedicated strikers, is going to cost me as a newly promoted side.

Nevertheless, I am hoping to work on a flat 4-4-2 and expanding with a 4-2-3-1 and perhaps a 4-1-2-2-1.

Squad analysis

Strong GK options - Ikerne is good quality for the division and I've signed good competition for him.

Strong defence in general. The likes of Batth, Stearmann, Ricketts, Margreitter central combined with decent FB/WB coverage where Kevin Foley is turning into a great CWB.

My central midfield is strong, I managed to sign Joe Ledley who brings experience and a true Box-to-Box engine to my team - I have great expectations of him. And guys like O'Hara, Davis, McDonald keeps me well covered.

My options on the wing in midfield are rather weak. I had to accept a 6m bid for Sako, and I struggle with the fact that I don't really pocess quality wide midfielders and my wingers in general have trouble climbing above a 2.5 star rating. I've managed to sign a couple good future players, but they need time to develop. In general my setup is stronger in AML/AMR than in ML/MR. I am also hampered by only having one true AMC, where I signed and experienced 34 year-old, who isn't pacy but very strong mentally (forgot name at present).

My forwards are 50/50 - My AdvF(a) options are strong for the division (Dicko & Cassidy), but my TM options are more limited (Clarke is average). Hoping to sign a big guy before the window closes, but transfer money is limited. Also I don't feel that Dicko and Cassidy have the physical presence to play deeper, which makes me cautius of tactics with a lone striker.

Team pro's: Strong on the defensive side of the ball. Good squad depth for the entire defence & central midfield. Pacy and skilled advanced forwards.

Team con's: Weak wingers/attacking midfield at present (strong when developed). Only one good AMC. Lack of physical presence up front.

4-4-2

The 4-4-2 that brought succes and that I will hold onto for now is:

GK

FB (s) - CD(d) - CD(d) - CWB (a)

Wing (a) - BtB(s) - DLP(d) - Wing (s)

TM (s) - AdvF(a)

Last year I used a fluid system, hasseling opponents, working the ball into the box. This year I am thinking of dropping deeper, not hasseling and perhaps luring on counters. But with players in the ML/MR who aren't very strong defensively, I fear my team may not be able to cope with the opponent quality.

4-2-3-1

Rather like the 4-4-2 in terms of roles, however with 2 CM and 3 AM (L/C/R):

FB (s) - CD(d) - CD(d) - CWB (a)

BtB(s) - DLP(d)

IF(a) - Treq (a) - Wing(s)

AdvF(a)/TM(s)/DLF(s)

Here I also want to drop deeper, but am sceptic that my AdvF will become somewhat isolated and I must resort to my less gifted target men. I am somewhat comfortable with the winger roles, as I have slower, more technically and passing gifted guys for the Wing(s) role and some pacy, goal-scoring threats for the IF(a). I am very doubtfull of the AMC role at the moment. As my guy is slow, but very technically and mentally gifted. Considoring an AMC(s) also or AvdP(s/a), however I fear this will kill the ability of a fluid system. The key is getting a good partnership with the AMC and FC which also take the wingers into cosidoration.

4-1-2-2-1

This is the system I am most in doubt about, however confident in it's ability to play for a draw.

FB (s) - CD(d) - CD(d) - CWB (a)

Ancor(d)

BtB(s) - BWM/CM (s)

IF(a) - Wing(s)

AdvF(a)/TM(s)/DLF(s)

I hope the above signals that I got my worries about my 4-4-2, shows I am shaping a future 4-2-3-1 team albeit sceptic of my teams strength in the division and thus resorting to a defensive 4-1-2-2-1 at times. I also prefer if I can keep some recognizeable roles across all 3 tactics, primarily in the defence and central midfield, where I feel my team excels.

Comments and suggestions - primarily for the 2/3 AMs and lone striker - are very welcomed.

[Kim Wong]

Many people suggest that playing one striker with support duty, another with attack duty in a formation with 2 strikers. I wonder if two strikers with attack duty actually work when playing with direct passing style.

[llama3]

Comments and suggestions - primarily for the 2/3 AMs and lone striker - are very welcomed.

General gist is that you look to build fairly logical systems. Although you have a CWB & Winger on the same side in your 4-2-3-1 but an IF and FB on the same on the other flank - both are things to avoid. Would look to swap them over. An AF can be very effective in a 4-2-3-1 pulling across the line, opening up space. Otherwise, support duties link up much better.

Many people suggest that playing one striker with support duty, another with attack duty in a formation with 2 strikers. I wonder if two strikers with attack duty actually work when playing with direct passing style.

Only if the 2 strikers have very different styles. I.e. an AF and a Trequartista etc.

[TommiiGuns]

I have a quick question about playing a 3-5-2, or i guess more of a 3-1-4-2. This might be a silly question and i think i already know the answer but will the wingers in my midfield be solo wide men? So i guess what im asking is will they be better set up as a support or defensive role rather than an attacking role to make make up for the lack of wing backs due to playing 3 at the back?

[llama3]

Yes they are lone wide men. I would be cautious about defensive roles, as you may lack width on the flanks without support or attacking duties.

[Zundar002]

Remember...

Your defensive roles affect your defensive distribution, and duties affect your defensive approach. Defend duties stay in line better, with Stopper and Cover duties useful in tandem closing down and tracking space and runs, but at the expense of your offside trap.

Does this mean if I don't use an offside trap, and I have the players capable of the roles, that I'm better off with a Stopper Cover pair over 2 Defend pair? Or is that more of a matter of taste?

[llama3]

Does this mean if I don't use an offside trap, and I have the players capable of the roles, that I'm better off with a Stopper Cover pair over 2 Defend pair? Or is that more of a matter of taste?

Generally personal preference - although obviously depends what suits the players, plus formation too - e.g. I would never use a stopper with a DM in front