Pairs & Combinations FM2015 - UPDATED

[Dr. Hook]

I hope this hasn't been asked already. Will this update still hold good for FM '15? Forgive if it has but I've been ill and away for a while and have not been able to keep up to date.

While we can't know exactly what changes will occur in the FM15 match engine yet, it is safe to say that the basic principles Llama has outlined will hold true. Really, they worked in versions past too; if you knew how to tweak the sliders you could achieve this same thing. So, no, don't worry about this becoming irrelevant

[Finknottle]

Thanks Dr. Hook. I didn't want to waste a lot of ink in printing them out if I didn't need to.

[daleuk8]

Regards to getting the wide men to track back: will having them man mark wide men help?

[RTHerringbone]

Regards to getting the wide men to track back: will having them man mark wide men help?

You have a few options, off the top of my head these include:

1. Start them from ML/R rather than AML/R

2. Choose Role / Duty carefully. A winger on Attack will clearly not get back as quickly as a Defensive Winger on Support. See what wide Role can be tuned best to behave like you want

3. Specific man marking on wide men works well, but you need to be aware of its impacts. When you defend, your wide men will track the AI wide men all the way down to your DL/R positions (depending on which side of the pitch the ball is on). As such, when you regain possession, they'll have a lot of ground to make up to support an attack

[daleuk8]

You have a few options, off the top of my head these include:

1. Start them from ML/R rather than AML/R

2. Choose Role / Duty carefully. A winger on Attack will clearly not get back as quickly as a Defensive Winger on Support. See what wide Role can be tuned best to behave like you want

3. Specific man marking on wide men works well, but you need to be aware of its impacts. When you defend, your wide men will track the AI wide men all the way down to your DL/R positions (depending on which side of the pitch the ball is on). As such, when you regain possession, they'll have a lot of ground to make up to support an attack

OK Thankyou, I've updated my thread, could you take a look?

[RTHerringbone]

OK Thankyou, I've updated my thread, could you take a look?

Yep - done

[daleuk8]

The fundamental issue is the players not being close together in the DM-DM-AM triangle. So you need to make up for this by:

• Making sure someone gets forward from the DM positions to link up
  
• Make sure the AMC can drop back to recieve and link
  
• Make sure your passing is more direct (that can simply be selecting an individual player role that is more likely to play in such a fashion, like a DLP)
  
• Your wing back's getting forward lots is a good way of offering outlets and link ups too

Can I ask what role you'd play in the AMC to get him to drop back? is it just as simple as playing a A/P on a support duty?

[llama3]

Can I ask what role you'd play in the AMC to get him to drop back? is it just as simple as playing a A/P on a support duty?

Those 4 points are ideas, not necessarily a set of 4 rigid rules, but they are certainly useful. As for dropping deep, a Trequartista or Enganche can do that job too.

[daleuk8]

Those 4 points are ideas, not necessarily a set of 4 rigid rules, but they are certainly useful. As for dropping deep, a Trequartista or Enganche can do that job too.[/quote

OK thank you. In my counter 4-2-3-1 system, I've changed my AM to a Trequartista, I've dropped my CM's back to DM strata. One is DLP-Defend, the other is a DM-Support. Upfront I've got a DLF-Support, as I'm asking them to be more direct with passing is a support duty up top a good idea? Also when you use counter do you always drop your CM's back?

[llama3]

I don't always drop them back due to things like positional familiarity etc, but it's the logical thing to do. You can have an attack duty up front if it is supported by players directly behind, so in your case, he is by the Trequartista.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

You have a few options, off the top of my head these include:

1. Start them from ML/R rather than AML/R

2. Choose Role / Duty carefully. A winger on Attack will clearly not get back as quickly as a Defensive Winger on Support. See what wide Role can be tuned best to behave like you want

3. Specific man marking on wide men works well, but you need to be aware of its impacts. When you defend, your wide men will track the AI wide men all the way down to your DL/R positions (depending on which side of the pitch the ball is on). As such, when you regain possession, they'll have a lot of ground to make up to support an attack

One wonders if this will be fixed for 15.

[Cleon]

One wonders if this will be fixed for 15.

Fix what? It's not a bug. The issue is in FM users tend to use favour AML/AMR's but in real life the sides who have wide players track back tend to use ML/MR. It's the formations used that are the issue. People tend to forget that the shape you see on the tactic screen is the defensive shape.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Fix what? It's not a bug. The issue is in FM users tend to use favour AML/AMR's but in real life the sides who have wide players track back tend to use ML/MR. It's the formations used that are the issue. People tend to forget that the shape you see on the tactic screen is the defensive shape.

a) The game should point that out more clearly that formation = defensive shape.

b) The game should point out more clearly that the top heavy amount of AM/R/L can play in the MR/L slots without too much hassle, leading to;

c) There should be a more even distribution of players for the MR/L slots, just a personal view.

And I honestly think there should be an option for those in the AM slots to track back as if they were in the M slots, an option to select which players stay forward if any, but I'm nitpicking on that option.

[daleuk8]

a) The game should point that out more clearly that formation = defensive shape.

b) The game should point out more clearly that the top heavy amount of AM/R/L can play in the MR/L slots without too much hassle, leading to;

c) There should be a more even distribution of players for the MR/L slots, just a personal view.

And I honestly think there should be an option for those in the AM slots to track back as if they were in the M slots, an option to select which players stay forward if any, but I'm nitpicking on that option.

I might be wrong but I think that is where marking comes in.

[spaced33]

Fix what? It's not a bug. The issue is in FM users tend to use favour AML/AMR's but in real life the sides who have wide players track back tend to use ML/MR. It's the formations used that are the issue. People tend to forget that the shape you see on the tactic screen is the defensive shape.

I think what a lot of people don't realise is that the AMR/L positions are actually forwards and you need to think of them in that way. They don't offer that much defensively.

[llama3]

I will be adding an update in the near future for P&C to account for the new roles in FM15. Also planning a few more small features too.

[IOA]

It's been said many times before and I'll say it again...Thank you!

Fantastic guide and looking forward to the updated FM15 version.

[atmurauer]

I will be adding an update in the near future for P&C to account for the new roles in FM15. Also planning a few more small features too.

just stumbled upon your guide, really awesome! since I also play Arsenal everytime this is incredible helpful for me! looking forward to the new version!

[aderow]

--------------CF-a

--------------Treq

WP-a CM-s CM-d WP-a

WB-s CD-d CD-d WB-s

I've been messing around with this. While it's certainly been producing results, I feel like it's almost too narrow at times. I've been using the shorter passing TI so I might remove it as, if it hasn't changed, it has an effect on width.

[llama3]

You could simply ask your team to play narrower? Or as your Wing Back's to play wider instead?

[aderow]

You could simply ask your team to play narrower? Or as your Wing Back's to play wider instead?

I ended up doing the latter. WBs have been getting a lot of assists lately.

[Fritz13]

Read this on the way in to work this morning - fascinating read .. top work

I asked this on another thread but is there a conflict if I set my forward to Trequartista and my AMC to an Enganche .. will they be in each others way or should the Treq drift to the wings a bit more often to avoid this.

[llama3]

Read this on the way in to work this morning - fascinating read .. top work

I asked this on another thread but is there a conflict if I set my forward to Trequartista and my AMC to an Enganche .. will they be in each others way or should the Treq drift to the wings a bit more often to avoid this.

Answered in the other thread.

[daleuk8]

Any news on an update?

[llama3]

Working on it now. Hopefully by end of the week.

[daleuk8]

Working on it now. Hopefully by end of the week.

looking forward to it

[atmurauer]

Working on it now. Hopefully by end of the week.

so awesome! really really appreciate your work with this! helped me a lot in my first season by adapting your guide to the fm15 with arsenal, but only could save a 4th spot after the bugged GK cost me so many matches before the hotfix they released earlier this week.

looking really forward to this! very good stuff! thanks again!

[ErikSchierboom]

Working on it now. Hopefully by end of the week.

Great! I just printed your PDF document and have been reading it eagerly. Already, I have been able to improve my tactics a lot by using your suggestions!

[MikeyFraser]

I'm working on a diamond with man united, does this have enough movement/defensive cover?

Cwb cb cb cwb

Dm (d)

B2b (s) or dlp (s) - Roaming playmaker (s)

Adv playmaker (a) with move into channels

Complete fwd (s). Adv forward

Cheers!

[llama3]

Looks sound. What about team instructions?

[aderow]

I've been thinking. Is there really that much of a difference between a Treq and an AP-a instructed to roam?

[llama3]

Trequartista still has more licence, and does not make off the ball forward runs

[MikeyFraser]

My team instructions are shorter passing, work ball into box, play out of defence, exploit the middle, narrower, push higher up, close down more and higher tempo

Also in my other tactic (4 3 3 with dm and an adv playmaker (a) and a roaming playmaker) what role suits di Maria better? I have kovacic aswell so was thinking kovacic roaming playmaker with di Maria adv playmaker or would the other way around?

[daleuk8]

how is the update going?

[llama3]

how is the update going?

Slowly - but I'm making progress.

[Fieldsy]

in regards to a 3 man midfield - I have a defensive midfielder and then a 2 man Cm pairing. Have used a DLP (s) and AP(a) In the past. However, has anyone used a RP (s) with an AP(a)? I would fear that they would go into the same space all the time?

[MikeyFraser]

For me personally I find the roaming playmaker finds little pockets of space away from the ap and reacts to his movement

[bollarn]

in regards to a 3 man midfield - I have a defensive midfielder and then a 2 man Cm pairing. Have used a DLP (s) and AP(a) In the past. However, has anyone used a RP (s) with an AP(a)? I would fear that they would go into the same space all the time?

I think it could work as long as they have space to operate in. It's basically what I think Barca has been playing with Xavi (RP) and Iniesta (AP). The key for it to work is to have runners and people that stretch the pitch around them. Players like Pedro, Sanchez, Neymar and Messi (even tho he likes to come from deep and get the ball at his feets).

[mrgreenze]

I'm going with a diamond formation with Liverpool, inspired by Gegenpressing, as follows:

GK - Sweeper keeper attack

RB - Wing back attack

LB - Wing back attack

CD - Stopper

CD - Cover

DM - Regista support

MC - BWM defend

MC - B2B support

AMC - Tre attack

ST - Complete forward support

ST - Adv fwd attack

Mentality - attacking, Fluidity - Very structured

Team instructions - hassle, stay on feet, play out of defence, much higher def line, work into box, whip crosses

Balance looks but not sure about the front 3? Any advice welcome...

[..Valhalla..]

This is a fantastic read llama3, thanks

[[sSn]]

Do we have an updated .pdf on Pairs & Combinations for fm15? We do have some new roles in fm15.

[Dr. Hook]

;10007564']Do we have an updated .pdf on Pairs & Combinations for fm15? We do have some new roles in fm15.

Llama has one in the works that will account for new roles and match engine changes for FM15.

[Broskoslov]

Thnx llama3 for the good read and for messing with my head Can I get some help, cant get it to work really?

I still cant get my team to play nicely, and score goals. I guess i am playing with to many players behind the ball, but all changes i do, dont do anything.

I am playing with Inter and lacking width/wingers, so I am playing a 5-3-2 like:

CWB(A) - DC(S) - DC© - DC(S) - CWB(S)

BWM - AP(A) - B2B

DLF(s) - AF(A)

I started out playing on CTRL mentality, but lately on Attacking which gives me a lot of shots on/off goal but hardly any goals. And I use Flexible shape.

I have been replaying matches, changing my setup where my DC© becomes a Half Back (+ DC settings on 'defend') and moving my AP(A) up to pich just behind the forwards.

All my changes didnt do much good (besides 1 very good win vs Juventus), and I am desperate for some advice.

All matches I am (re)playing are played at home.

Starting instructions are:

- shorter passing

- work ball in box

- play out of defence

- exploit the middle

- roam from positions

- close down more

- use tighter marking

[thomas_e]

I see that you dont recommend using an AMC and ST on attack at the same time. Could you do that if keeping AML/R on support duties?

[llama3]

Thnx llama3 for the good read and for messing with my head Can I get some help, cant get it to work really?

I still cant get my team to play nicely, and score goals. I guess i am playing with to many players behind the ball, but all changes i do, dont do anything.

I am playing with Inter and lacking width/wingers, so I am playing a 5-3-2 like:

CWB(A) - DC(S) - DC© - DC(S) - CWB(S)

BWM - AP(A) - B2B

DLF(s) - AF(A)

I started out playing on CTRL mentality, but lately on Attacking which gives me a lot of shots on/off goal but hardly any goals. And I use Flexible shape.

I have been replaying matches, changing my setup where my DC© becomes a Half Back (+ DC settings on 'defend') and moving my AP(A) up to pich just behind the forwards.

All my changes didnt do much good (besides 1 very good win vs Juventus), and I am desperate for some advice.

All matches I am (re)playing are played at home.

Starting instructions are:

- shorter passing

- work ball in box

- play out of defence

- exploit the middle

- roam from positions

- close down more

- use tighter marking

Central midfield looks a bit static is the biggest issue. You have 3 players who make forward runs "sometimes", none are busting a gut to get into advanced positions. Perhaps a CM(A) & AP(S) [or DLP, RP etc] could help instead of the AP(A) & BBM(S), by adding the directness but control of the ball.

I see that you dont recommend using an AMC and ST on attack at the same time. Could you do that if keeping AML/R on support duties?

You could, but to have the AML/R on support duties you need your full backs on attack duties to add the width and balance. You could use a Trequartista/Enganche & AF(A) at the same time, as they will still occupy different space. The forward needs to stay high and pull across the line though into channels and space.

[dazbowski]

i'm playing a 3 5 2 as suggested but want to use a AMC what role would you lose (Deep forward)? What role would you have the AMC play?

[llama3]

well that would change your shape to a 3-4-1-2, and the risk with this, is that with lone wide men, your AMC becomes a single focal point for your attacks, and gets marked out of the game by a DMC. So with that in mind, I would suggest that you choose a Trequartista, so he pulls wide, so a DMC cannot find it as easy to mark him out of the game. Strike pairing is then up to you.

[dazbowski]

well that would change your shape to a 3-4-1-2, and the risk with this, is that with lone wide men, your AMC becomes a single focal point for your attacks, and gets marked out of the game by a DMC. So with that in mind, I would suggest that you choose a Trequartista, so he pulls wide, so a DMC cannot find it as easy to mark him out of the game. Strike pairing is then up to you.

I want to lose one of the front men fro an AMC so it would be 3 CB's 1 DM 2 WB 2 CM 1 AM and a lone striker.Do you have and suggestions on how to do this? I'm desperate for something to work as i've actually stopped playing the game due to my frustrations. I'm not a good tactician and I need help.

[llama3]

Well with a back 3, you need your DM in front to be quite creative with the ball, otherwise you have too few real defensive players. A DLP or Regista is fairly essential in front of a back 3. A Trequartista as mentioned above is a good choice because he moves wide, but he will need someone to attack the space from deep, so a BBM or CM(A) is essential too. A good spread of duties is to use 3 defend, 4 support, 3 attack - creates a good balance in the team.

[rafiomcnick]

Great job llama3, congratulation, your thread is absolutely brilliant. What do you think about new roles, specially a combination of a roaming playmaker and a box to box in a 4-2-3-1 with an advanced playmaker to attack in AM position?

At moment i'm working on this 4-2-3-1

GK- defend

WB R support

WB L attack

DC R cover

DC L stopper

MC R roaming playmaker ( who can be a DLP- defend, CM-defend or a Anchorman-defend when i need to retain the result or i face toughest opponents)

MC L box to box

AMR raumdeuter

AM advanced playmaker attack

AML inside forward support

CF Complete forward (support or attack) or advanced forward

Team instructions Flexible - Attack (Standard against toughest opponents) : Shorter passing,pass into space,play out of defence, run at defense,push higher up, close down more, get stuck in,be more expressive,roam from positions,higher tempo.

thanks in advance mate, nice job