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What is up with the Italian Serie A?

xoonk

By xoonk,
in Football Manager General Discussion

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RTHerringbone

RTHerringbone

Posted
Posted
So you're not actually responding to what I say but to me, then?

I was referring to post #42.

Regarding the post you just quoted, there is no "boost" given to lone wide men, and that's the sort of misinformation that you are prone to spreading.

You then make a supposition that FM14 currently imbalances the efficiency of wide play and crosses, which again is not actually the case.

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BiggusD

BiggusD

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Posted
I was referring to post #42.

Regarding the post you just quoted, there is no "boost" given to lone wide men, and that's the sort of misinformation that you are prone to spreading.

You then make a supposition that FM14 currently imbalances the efficiency of wide play and crosses, which again is not actually the case.

Yeah, and #42 was a response to those responding to #25. Reading #42 without also reading #25 is taking it out of context, which was what you did when you asked how it is relevant to post examples from FM13 in a thread about FM14. This was the misunderstanding I tried to erect, but got sniping at my posting history in return.

#42 is proof as good as anything for that boost. Both my defensively weak wingers won all their tackles and do an unbelievable defensive job when they are not (as in the pictures - that was not one of the tackles). Well, I call it a boost. What it actually may be, is that in a 343 or 352 with wide midfielders, the positional programming which underpins that role strongly dictates their behaviour. It is not like we control every little aspect of their behaviour - most of it is "hard-coded" and we just tweak it with the instructions we give them. These hard-coded behaviour parameters make sure that whoever plays there functions like a wing-back defensively, since what we instruct is mostly what he's supposed to do when we are attacking (the formation is the defensive positioning).

My argument (or observation if it pleases thee) is that the defending behaviour of lone wide midfielders overrides the actual capabilities of the player used there, unrealistically rewarding the use of wingers like Amrani in those formations.

Now, I have put forth an argument based on the knowledge of how different positions work in FM (which is confirmed by SI in other posts) and backed it up by visual evidence, tying that to what I and a friend I play online with have observed from several hundred hours of playing FM13.

His strong, downloaded 442 tactic with world-class players on the flanks and the tactical know-how to exploit the inherent weakness of having only one wide player (in midfield position even) rarely managed to do so, even though against the AI he scored most of the goals on crosses from the byline. That 442 was very tight defensively as well, so our head-to-head matches with Arsenal and Chelsea often ended with a total of less than 10 shots on goal, cancelling each other out. His accusations of cheating were promptly shot down with the observation that the AI was completely incapable of creating anything on him as well, when I watched his matches. As I have said before, I only discovered this when AI Roma used Lamela as a left midfielder in a 343, and he did the same as Amrani. Up and down the flank at full trot in 90 minutes, having complete defensive control as well as terrorizing my defense.

Is there anything in this post you can label disinformation or lies?

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RTHerringbone

RTHerringbone

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Posted

A small sample of two blokes playing a game and talking about it, and a couple of screenshots, doesn't really amount to "proof as good as anything".

That particular post isn't misinformation, instead it is one persons' perception of one facet of the game which is entirely founded on a subjective interpretation.

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BiggusD

BiggusD

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Posted
A small sample of two blokes playing a game and talking about it, and a couple of screenshots, doesn't really amount to "proof as good as anything".

That particular post isn't misinformation, instead it is one persons' perception of one facet of the game which is entirely founded on a subjective interpretation.

The more interesting discussion is to what degree positions override attributes.

Nothing anyone say in here is anything but subjective interpretation, so such an assertion is meaningless. It is SI that has the option to soak test, and so it is SI that needs to verify observed tendencies with solid enough statistics to be used as "fact" (bearing in mind that even statistics must be interpreted). The users can only do so much, including me. It doesn't matter how many screenshots, pkm's and savegames I provide as proof. I can only produce statistical insiginficance, the same as anyone else including you. Therefore, one screenshot is as good as 200. In the feedback thread an estimated 800 different posters have complained about various ME stuff, but that is also statistically insignificant.

The inescapable human subjectivity is not a very interesting subject on this board. What about what I am actually saying in this thread? Rather than discussing who I am and my complete disinterest in the voice of authority, shouldn't we discuss what this thread is actually about - namely the consequences of "hard-coded" positional behaviour on the simulation of AI vs AI matches? Several users observe weird league tables in Serie A. Several users observe that wing play is very powerful and one-vs-ones with the keeper are not. In Serie A, many teams use 4132, 4312, 41212, 4231 wingless, 343 and 352 variants as Italian football is known for packing the centre of the pitch. I proposed that there is a connection based on my experiences with 343 in FM13 and that another poster noticed the same in FM14.

The fact that I wrote it as a statement of fact is of no consequence; it should be met with counter-arguments not ad hominem attacks. If anyone who say or write his opinion as fact must be believed as an authority of truth on the subject, then the reader is making a logical error. I have no interest in writing "I think" in every bloody sentence; that kind of fake Continental-Europe-humility/politeness is nothing but a waste of time.

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Auqakuh

Auqakuh

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1. What about the legendary tactical versatility of Italian managers? Unfortunately, you just can't replicate this in the game, as we all know managers have one or two preferred formation and that's it.

"Two DMs or two DMs or maybe two DMs?" does not amount to "legendary tactical versatility". Nor does "kick them really hard or kick them slightly less hard?"

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sirgiorgio

sirgiorgio

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A small sample of two blokes playing a game and talking about it, and a couple of screenshots, doesn't really amount to "proof as good as anything".

That particular post isn't misinformation, instead it is one persons' perception of one facet of the game which is entirely founded on a subjective interpretation.

I don’t know if I am one of the two blokes, as I carefully avoided to mention any of the personal (subjective) tests I made last year (FM13).

Back to objectivity and FM14. The following Serie A teams in my save (Dec. 2013) play 352, 3421 or 343: Bologna, Fiorentina, Genoa, Parma, Udinese.

Bologna: Garics (D/WB/M)* hasn’t played a single game yet, Morleo (D/WB/M) is transfer listed. The M R/L spots are usually occupied by the likes of Diamanti and Lazaros (AM/ST).

Fiorentina: Pasqual (D/WB/M, captain and Italy international) was sold, Joaquin (M/AM R) usually plays M R or M L.

Genoa: Centurion and Fetfatzisidis (both AM) seem to be their first choices, Antonelli (D/WB/M) is transfer listed.

Parma: Sansone (AM/ST) is the first choice on the left flank.

Udinese: Nothing strange here (although I should probably note that there aren’t a lot of good AM R/L in this team).

But I think the most interesting case is Palermo (Serie B): They start with no manager and appoint Reja (352). First thing he does, he sells Morganella (D/WB/M). Daprelà (D/WB/M) is a backup now, while Stevanovic, Troianello (AM) and Lafferty (AM/ST) are regular first team players.

It seems clear to me that AI managers prefer to use wingers (attacking midfielders) in a role where you would logically expect a different, more defensive type of player.

The only subjective part in my reasoning is that about the difference between 352 and 532. IMO, formations with 3 DCs and no WBs have no reason to exist, but I know other people think otherwise. Conte himself defines his formation “3-3-4”, but then again, the two wide players are actually natural or re-trained wingbacks (Asamoah, De Ceglie, Peluso, Lichtsteiner, Padoin, Caceres, Isla). He never thought of using Giovinco on the left flank. The fact is, the game resolves the 352 vs 532 debate in a very peculiar way, and this may (or may not) explain the reason of the “outrageously weird” Serie A the OP is experiencing.

* You guys can check their attributes, if you want, and see if they “fit” the formation. You can also see if the game represents what is actually happening in Serie A, if you don’t trust me.

"Two DMs or two DMs or maybe two DMs?" does not amount to "legendary tactical versatility". Nor does "kick them really hard or kick them slightly less hard?"

I agree Serie A matches are boring and a pain to watch nowadays. Especially for those who know nothing about tactics.

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RTHerringbone

RTHerringbone

Posted
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It seems clear to me that AI managers prefer to use wingers (attacking midfielders) in a role where you would logically expect a different, more defensive type of player.

AI Team Selection logic is a part of the game and whilst your sample is small, the Bologna, Genoa, Parma and Palermo examples do hint at some strange Player / Role allocation decisions.

Is it possible that you could copy and paste this post into the Match Engine Bugs Forum, and upload a save game please?

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sirgiorgio

sirgiorgio

Posted
Posted
AI Team Selection logic is a part of the game and whilst your sample is small, the Bologna, Genoa, Parma and Palermo examples do hint at some strange Player / Role allocation decisions.

Is it possible that you could copy and paste this post into the Match Engine Bugs Forum, and upload a save game please?

Will do. But first, I want to replicate one of those tests I made with FM13. Basically, I changed Conte's preferred formation from 532 Serbia & Montenegro to 352. With 532, at the start of the game Giaccherini and Padoin (both M/AM RLC) were transfer listed and he wanted to sign Adriano (Barcelona player), with 352 De Ceglie and Lichtsteiner (both D/WB/M) were transfer listed and he wanted to sign Nani (Man Utd player). Moreover, he constantly used Giovinco as M L. I'll change Conte and Mazzarri preferred formations, see what happens and in case I will upload both saves.

Funny you didn't mention Fiorentina: I heard their manager Montella saying "Joaquin is not yet ready to play M R in a 352". "Not yet ready" is a typical Italian euphemism for "he will never play there as long as I am the manager"... :)

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PeterPistola

PeterPistola

Posted
Posted

I started my save as Milan.

In the opening 2 seasons, Sampdoria, Napoli and Juventus were my main rivals. Last season it was Sampdoria with Juventus, Napoli and Inter mid table and Roma and Fiorentina down near relegation.

This season and it was around the time the update came in;

1st Milan

2nd Juventus

3rd Roma

4th Inter

5th Napoli

6th Udinese

Fiorentina are in 10th. I guess one big team is going to struggle, like if they loose to all the big teams thats 12 matches they've lost minimum plus giving a 6 point advantage to their rivals.

So all I'm saying is least this season is a little more realistic.

Will do. But first, I want to replicate one of those tests I made with FM13. Basically, I changed Conte's preferred formation from 532 Serbia & Montenegro to 352. With 532, at the start of the game Giaccherini and Padoin (both M/AM RLC) were transfer listed and he wanted to sign Adriano (Barcelona player), with 352 De Ceglie and Lichtsteiner (both D/WB/M) were transfer listed and he wanted to sign Nani (Man Utd player). Moreover, he constantly used Giovinco as M L. I'll change Conte and Mazzarri preferred formations, see what happens and in case I will upload both saves.

Funny you didn't mention Fiorentina: I heard their manager Montella saying "Joaquin is not yet ready to play M R in a 352". "Not yet ready" is a typical Italian euphemism for "he will never play there as long as I am the manager"... :)

Depends on the coach as Prandelli prefers a defensive player on one wing and a attacking one on the other likewise also Mazzarri. Giaccherini on the left and Maggio/Abate on the right. Whereas conte likes solid wingbacks who are also strong in the air.

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sirgiorgio

sirgiorgio

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Depends on the coach as Prandelli prefers a defensive player on one wing and a attacking one on the other likewise also Mazzarri. Giaccherini on the left and Maggio/Abate on the right. Whereas conte likes solid wingbacks who are also strong in the air.

Not really. Last year Mazzarri had Zuniga, Armero, Maggio and Mesto. They all are FB/WB. Benitez use them as FB in his 4231. Now Mazzarri has Jonathan, Nagatomo, Pereira, Zanetti and Wallace to choose from, and they all are FB/WB. In FM 13 Napoli (Mazzarri) regularly played 3412 or 3421 with Insigne on the left and/or Pandev (!) on the right.

The fact that Giaccherini might have played as WB a couple of times doesn't mean anything, except he is a versatile, hard-working player.

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