Özil + 10, a tactical exercise on FM14 with Arsenal

[noikeee]

very inspiring thread! I don't have the beta but that looks a lot like the tactic I have in my mind, building a 4-2-3-1 around a star Trequartista! I like your idea of AML/playmaker a lot too.

Couple of things: how many dribbles per game do the AML and AMC perform on average? I'd especially want my AMC to take on defenders in central zones and beat them regularly! is this something you're trying to achieve too? can it work?

are the two CM's enough to give defensive balance to this formation? maybe a more rigid philosophy would help defensive balance or would only disrupt the offensive flow? never had much luck playing with two DM's, especially if I want to keep ball possession high so that's something I wouldn't want to try!

great thread, following with interest!

Cheers. I'm not really looking for Özil to dribble that much as AMC, he spends most of his time just wandering around the pitch confusing the opposition defence with his movement, and doing little touches on the ball here and there. Not noticing a lot of dribbles from Cazorla on the left neither. Walcott runs a lot more on the right.

Unfortunately I don't think the 2 CMs give enough defensive balance, no. This tactic so far seems good for smashing smaller teams but has problems whenever the opposition decides to take the game to us. Messing with fluidity may be a good idea, the initial thought behind upping it to "fluid" was initially with Dortmund to link up the gap between the DMs and the AM, so with 2 MCs and 1 AM "balanced" may just cut it. I'm starting to experiment with 2 DMs again though.

[noikeee]

Noikeee take a look at a defender who plays for river plate think his name is balata or something like that , anyway he can be had for around the 6m mark

Was already on the shortlist but had forgotten about him, tks.

[Guest]

I find the central midfielder on defence doesn't perform that great as it is so may try tweaking him with the plan a setup

[noikeee]

Braga 1-5 Arsenal: Improving plan B

Pre-season was ending and I desperately tried to schedule a friendly against a really big side to give us a proper test before the matches that count, but unfortunately I didn't manage to. So a trip to Braga for the final match would do, even if Braga are not quite top quality.

I lined up with my usual starting 11 on a slightly refined version of plan B:

• - the deep lying midfielder was dropped from the MC position to DM position
  
• - to link up better the 2 DMs with the 3 AMs, I swapped duties between them: the more defensive Behrami was given defense duty, with the playmaking Arteta given support duty to ensure he moves a little closer to the 3 AMs
  
• - the Stopper centre-back was changed to Defend duty - to ensure what happened vs Bastia doesn't happen again, and it's pointless to have a Stopper with 2 DMs in front of the defence anyway
  
• - "Push Higher Up" was introduced to ensure we don't drop as deep and give away so much space to the opposition to attack us
  
• - "Higher Tempo" was dropped to ensure we are a little more patient on the ball and don't give away so much possession. It works brilliantly on plan A but for slightly tougher matches I think this can be dropped.

As the match started we immediately conceded a goal but it was a total fluke as Koscielny missed a header and left Alan clear with the keeper. I wasn't particularly worried about that, as we were shutting out Braga fairly well, but they were having too much possession and the match was too evenly matched for my liking. I wanted to claim more ball to ourselves and nudge the match closer to their area so shouted "Retain Possession" and "Look For Overlap".

The setup now looked like this:

The result was that our football didn't look anywhere near as spectacular as in the previous videos, however much to my delight we started controlling the match very well. The chances seemed to appear out of nothing - a scrappy penalty, a corner, a long shot, a through ball between the smallest of openings - and we converted them all. We eventually beat them 5-1, had 24 shots on goal and marginally won the possession battle. It was death by a million paper cuts, unlike in previous matches where we were attempting to beat the opposition with a sledgehammer.

I need to test this out against proper opposition, but for now, it looks like I'm coming closer to a much better balanced plan B - and "plan B" is misleading because this should be our main strategy for most matches, not the gung-ho plan A. I am much more confident now for attacking the opening Premier League fixture and the dreaded Champions League playoff.

[noikeee]

And on real life Arsenal are playing some fantastic football vs Norwich today as well.

[Simsejensen77]

How does Mr Özil perform for you peeps?

I cant really get the most of him, or atleast i want/expect him to play better for me. Ive tried using him as treq, AP. Just checked his PPM's. Dont really understand why the "runs with ball often" isnt ticking in. Its more like he has somekind of hidden "play simple short passing" thing going on

[noikeee]

It's probably the high teamwork - players with high teamwork are less selfish so tend to run less with the ball and pass more to team-mates.

[Guest]

Off to try your tweaked plan b , nice work

Also where do you fit Ramsey into your tactic if at all?

Thanks

[noikeee]

Off to try your tweaked plan b , nice work

Also where do you fit Ramsey into your tactic if at all?

Thanks

I don't fit him. He's my 2nd backup for both the CM/D role (behind Behrami, Flamini), or the DLP/S role (Arteta, Wilshere).

[noikeee]

Hull 1-2 Arsenal: Walcott crosses to Giroud twice

I'm not going to analyse every single match of my career, and this was a fairly unremarkable one, but since this was my first official fixture I feel I should write about it. I lined up with my latest iteration of plan B (as per the Braga match) and the main feature of the first half was a recurring pattern of Walcott constantly winning the byline and crossing towards Olivier Giroud. We scored twice exactly that way - the first a header, the second down the floor - and nearly scored a third but Giroud missed the chance of a hat-trick.

We were controlling the match fairly well, however near the end of the match I noticed Hull were starting to go more aggressive making rough tackles in the midfield, pushing us back and starting to get some chances as well. Eventually they got a goal too, on the 85th minute. We were tired and no longer dominating possession, so I decided "to hell with possession" and set the team to play on the counter, with more "direct passing" as well (no change of formation, remaining on a 4-2DM-3-1). It was too late to notice if it made any effect, but it's worth keeping it as an option for future matches.

[noikeee]

Arsenal 1-2 Red Bull Salzburg: Disaster in the Champions League

Next up was the Champions League playoff, we were lucky to get drawn against Red Bull Salzburg avoiding tougher teams, and I figured the gap in talent between teams was enough to play the plan A at home. Moreover Red Bull were playing a very defensive formation of 4-4-2 with 2 DMs, which is notoriously difficult to break down so why not go gung-ho against it.

It would be a big understatement to say things didn't go as planned. The problem in trying to outscore the opposition is that you're in deep trouble if you don't convert your chances, and that's exactly what we did. Despite Red Bull being unwilling to move much from their very solid defensive shape, we managed to break them down a few times but only scored once all match. However we were leaving a massive gap on our backs and the rare times Red Bull went upfront they were extremely dangerous. They scored on a set piece, and then on a penalty kick as well. Notice the unacceptable high amount of clear cut chances they had:

Losing at home I thought I had little option but to remain on the high tempo plan A to try to force goals, but they never happened. I tried to shuffle things bringing in Oxlade-Chamberlain for Cazorla on the left as inside forward, and later on new signing Carlos Vela (as recommended by other posters here) on the right as IF as well just to try something, I even switched roles on Giroud to AF/A and Ozil to SS/A, it didn't work at all as it just funneled our play into a static defence even more.

I don't replay matches but on hindsight I would approach this match rather differently. Against a team that sits back all match and does not move from their extremely solid shape, it's a bit pointless to try to play high-tempo football and trying to create space through a roaming Trequartista. That works great when the opposing team moves to try to mark the Trequartista, opening gaps everywhere, but not when they don't react to the movement. I would have started with plan B instead, but with a twist - Özil switched to a AP/S role and the "play wider" shout.

Let me explain with a few chalkboards. This is what we were doing here:

Özil was trying to move into extremely crowded areas, with the opposition not reacting to his moves, and ourselves trying to play at too high a tempo to benefit from his movement anyway. Moreover, Behrami and Arteta were not only too close to the crowded area, without time to play on the ball, but also leaving a gigantic space on their backs for Red Bull's strikers to exploit.

This is what I think we should've been doing instead:

Özil as AP/S tucks him in between the DMs which may not necessarily be great but now they're occupied with one guy all the time - maybe a 2 vs 2 when Cazorla moves in. Behrami and Arteta moved back to DM means they now suddenly have all the time in the world to work their moves, suiting perfectly a more patient possession game which is what we should've been playing. This also allows them to cover the Red Bull strikers on the counter much better. A more patient game allows us to sit a lot more in the opposition's area (we only had a meagre 53% of possession in this match), pushing them further back preventing them to counter well, and in this case allowing us to instruct "play wider" - this would hopefully give us space on the flanks for Coentrão and Walcott to win the byline which was something that did not happen at all in this match. By playing wider it also means the RM and LM can no longer help out in the middle and suddenly we can now completely overload their midfield which is left with 2 DMs having to cover for all of Özil, Cazorla, Arteta and Behrami with the 2 latter in acres of space.

Unfortunately, this is all a theoretical exercise. The harsh truth is we lost at home and have a monumental task to turn the tie around in Austria, otherwise Arsenal could be out of the Champions League for the first time in a decade or so.

[Guest]

I don't fit him. He's my 2nd backup for both the CM/D role (behind Behrami, Flamini), or the DLP/S role (Arteta, Wilshere).

lol , yeah good backup for Arteta I would say , I prefer Wilshere further forward and have found him to perform well in amc role as a trequestra so far in the games he has played but this will be Ozil's spot!

My first PL game I won 3-1 at home to Swansea using your tweaked plan b

[noikeee]

Red Bull Salzburg 1-2 Arsenal: Özil plays his best game yet and we go through on penalties

After a fairly unremarkable 4-0 win over Southampton for the league (the scoreline greatly flattered us), in which we rested players and Carlos Vela thrived in the Trequartista role, it was time for Mesut Özil to claim the spotlight in the difficult 2nd leg Champions League tie.

I lined up exactly the way I said I should've lined up for the previous match, except for a minor change as I experimented with Coentrão at right-back with Sagna being tired and unfit. It worked rather well as we dominated possession and restricted Red Bull to far less major chances. However come half-time, we were still 0-0.

I realized however Red Bull this time were giving us an awful lot more space than in the Emirates. They were playing at home so naturally more adventurous, had an AML/AMR pairing instead of MR/ML, and were being carved open far more due to our wider positioning as well. I reckoned this was actually the perfect situation for Özil to roam all over the place, so switched him back to Trequartista.

1st goal - Özil receives the ball from Walcott as his movement creates space out wide

It was enough to give us a goal as Özil found space by drifting to a wing and then crossed for Olivier Giroud. However we still needed another goal. Desperate in a push for it, I switched to Attacking strategy and we knocked at the door for a while but unfortunately it was Red Bull who scored at the other end. Then with 7 minutes to go, Sagna went to the line and crossed into a charging Özil. The keeper parried his shot but it fell to Cazorla who tapped it in.

2nd goal - Özil finds space again, this time rushing forward into the area

This match had several phases of play and extra-time was awkward with everyone exhausted, I didn't exactly know what to do - whether to continue pushing forward or returning to a patient plan. Eventually it all fizzled out into penalties, where we got lucky as Szczesny saved twice and put us in the Group Stage.

[Sanford&Son]

How do you get the player names on the match screen to be so big and clear? I can barely read my player names on the pitch during the match but your names appear so big! Even on the videos you have uploaded.

[llama3]

like your work here noikeee - excellent thread, gave me a few ideas and resolving my own tactical dilemmas here. I like seeing how the lack of sliders is getting us thinking about what we are doing more.

[Bittah Dreamer]

Very interesting thread.

I'm also Arsenal, and trying to play in a similar manner.

So far, I've bought in Balata, Dotia, Baines, De Sciglio, Reveillere, Bender, Otavio, Januzaj, Vela, Timo Werner, Sergi Samper and that young forward from Groningen with the Serbian name. Last two aren't for the first team yet.

I've shifted Park, Bentner, Vermaleen (only 2.5mill but needed to get rid of his wages), Frimpong, Jenkinson, Fabianski and Sagna.

Most of my signings are with clauses or monthly installments so that may come back to haunt me.

I haven't really fully finalised plan a or b yet.

Plan A is similar to the OPs, with Bender in DM as a ball winner, Wilshere as DLP in the centre and with Cazorla as an inside forward attack and Ozil as an advanced playmaker. I'm still fiddling around with the wide man settings, but on the left I have Cazorla tucked in and Baines on full back (attack). He's my best player by far, with 8.58 average rating after 6 games. His attacking role leaves gals though - which Liverpool just exploited to score a late equaliser in anfield.

Plan A seems to be going well enough. Beat Utd 1 - 0'at home, but should have been by more (though they had two good chances themselves).

Plan B was a counter attack version, with two DMs (same role). I wanted to play deep and break rapidly to exploit the pace of Walcott and creativity of Ozil and Cazorla. It worked ok in friendlies and in Champions League away to PAOK. However, in my last game against Liverpool I was battered for possession and shots. They only really had one clear cut chance but I didn't create much myself. I think there was too much of a gap between my DMs and the front four.

I'm thinking of going to 4-1-2-2-1 for plan B. I'm also managing Spain and trying a Barcelona type approach with that formation, with the DM as a half back, an AP and DLP in the centre, inside forward on the left and winger on the right. It means sacrificing Ozil in the hole, but I think it might give me more stability at the back, and the half back should help plug the whole left by Baines, which is a clear vulnerability. He offers so much going forward, so I don't want to curtail him. I just need to get others to plug the gaps.

[Lambie\'s Lovechild]

I have tried developing a few formations since we got access to the beta, and have found that the Number 10 position looks like its going to be key to a lot of tactical design.

Unless you develop a formation where you are using a holding midfielder who is assigned to man mark anyone playing in the hole, I find that 90% of through balls and long kicks find that area of the pitch empty save for the number 10, or a deep lying forward. Not sure from tweaking so far whether there is a way to keep this from occurring. Ive tried sitting a DM in there, but when the opposition are in possession, he drifts forward into the centre of the park unless hes on man marking, and the centre backs dont move up into the space, leaving a huge hole in there.

Ideally I would prefer to be using a player in there as a deep lying playmaker (Pirlo at Juventus) to spread the ball wide to my wingbacks or take out the opposition with accurate passing, but I cant get that to work. Will I have to play the 4-2-3-1 (as Dortmund, above) to be able to better control the opposition in this area, or is there a better way to go about this?

[Darkhail]

Has anyone else tried a 4-1-2-1-2 formation with Arsenal? I am having relative success but I can't seem to get the best out of Ozil as a Enganche behind the front two, Cazorla does great there.

[itsallaboutthierry]

Yep Darkhail, the 4-1-2-1-2 is what I've gone for having toyed with the 4-2-3-1 and not being happy with the gaps at the back and lack of cover. I started off building the tactic with ozil in the AMC role as an enganche, with Wilshire and Rambo as CM(s) with licence to roam and push forward. I knew those 3 positions were key to how I wanted to play.

After a few failed 4-2-3-1s built around these positions I opted for the 4-1-2-1-2, with the DM position playing as a half-back and the fullbacks playing as complete wingbacks. So far it's working very nicely, with the effect of the half-back & complete wingbacks creating a 3-4-3esque formation in possession. Ozil is spoiled for options with the 2 forwards ahead of him, wingbacks bombing into the wide spaces and both CMs filling the channels either side of him. The highlight so far being destroying Red Bell Salzburg 0-8 away from home in the Champions League qualifying round.

[llama3]

You have a false nine and an enganche? The F9 will drop deep next to the Enganche who will stay where he is rather than moving into his space. Also Giroud would be better as the support role out of the 2. Podolski is a natural goalscorer - the Poacher-Target Man combo could be very effective.

[Darkhail]

My plan around the Enganche and the F9 is to get the F9 to make runs from deeper. At the moment Podolski sits next to Ozil until Ozil or Giroud get the ball then he makes a run into the box. I am still tinkering with it.

[itsallaboutthierry]

I have Giroud/Benteke as Advanced Fwd and Podolski/Walcott as Poacher with Ozil the Enganche behind. Gives Ozil plenty of space and options ahead of him straight away. Works very nicely on the counter.

[noikeee]

How do you get the player names on the match screen to be so big and clear? I can barely read my player names on the pitch during the match but your names appear so big! Even on the videos you have uploaded.

I'm not doing anything in particular, the screenies are normally cropped screenshots at Full HD resolution. The videos are an anomaly due to the low res/Youtube bugs.

like your work here noikeee - excellent thread, gave me a few ideas and resolving my own tactical dilemmas here. I like seeing how the lack of sliders is getting us thinking about what we are doing more.

Thank you sir, your "pairs and combinations" threads were valuable info in planning this.

Very interesting thread.

I'm also Arsenal, and trying to play in a similar manner.

So far, I've bought in Balata, Dotia, Baines, De Sciglio, Reveillere, Bender, Otavio, Januzaj, Vela, Timo Werner, Sergi Samper and that young forward from Groningen with the Serbian name. Last two aren't for the first team yet.

I've shifted Park, Bentner, Vermaleen (only 2.5mill but needed to get rid of his wages), Frimpong, Jenkinson, Fabianski and Sagna.

Most of my signings are with clauses or monthly installments so that may come back to haunt me.

I haven't really fully finalised plan a or b yet.

Plan A is similar to the OPs, with Bender in DM as a ball winner, Wilshere as DLP in the centre and with Cazorla as an inside forward attack and Ozil as an advanced playmaker. I'm still fiddling around with the wide man settings, but on the left I have Cazorla tucked in and Baines on full back (attack). He's my best player by far, with 8.58 average rating after 6 games. His attacking role leaves gals though - which Liverpool just exploited to score a late equaliser in anfield.

Plan A seems to be going well enough. Beat Utd 1 - 0'at home, but should have been by more (though they had two good chances themselves).

Plan B was a counter attack version, with two DMs (same role). I wanted to play deep and break rapidly to exploit the pace of Walcott and creativity of Ozil and Cazorla. It worked ok in friendlies and in Champions League away to PAOK. However, in my last game against Liverpool I was battered for possession and shots. They only really had one clear cut chance but I didn't create much myself. I think there was too much of a gap between my DMs and the front four.

I'm thinking of going to 4-1-2-2-1 for plan B. I'm also managing Spain and trying a Barcelona type approach with that formation, with the DM as a half back, an AP and DLP in the centre, inside forward on the left and winger on the right. It means sacrificing Ozil in the hole, but I think it might give me more stability at the back, and the half back should help plug the whole left by Baines, which is a clear vulnerability. He offers so much going forward, so I don't want to curtail him. I just need to get others to plug the gaps.

That's a lot of transfers!

I'm getting similar superb ratings from Coentrão, he'd be our best player if Giroud and Walcott weren't scoring so much. An attacking full-back really, really works.

I've occasionally tried a counter version of the 4-2-3-1 as well, works best when the opposition are losing hence leaving space behind - but yes, it's at the expense of possession. I think the advanced playmaker as #10 will be too much of a static role for this variation, the Treq will exploit those spaces better but at the expense of slightly uncomfortable defending as it's one man less doing a job!

I have tried developing a few formations since we got access to the beta' date=' and have found that the Number 10 position looks like its going to be key to a lot of tactical design.

Unless you develop a formation where you are using a holding midfielder who is assigned to man mark anyone playing in the hole, I find that 90% of through balls and long kicks find that area of the pitch empty save for the number 10, or a deep lying forward. Not sure from tweaking so far whether there is a way to keep this from occurring. Ive tried sitting a DM in there, but when the opposition are in possession, he drifts forward into the centre of the park unless hes on man marking, and the centre backs dont move up into the space, leaving a huge hole in there.

Ideally I would prefer to be using a player in there as a deep lying playmaker (Pirlo at Juventus) to spread the ball wide to my wingbacks or take out the opposition with accurate passing, but I cant get that to work. Will I have to play the 4-2-3-1 (as Dortmund, above) to be able to better control the opposition in this area, or is there a better way to go about this?[/quote']

That is interesting, I'm afraid I can't help but i think there's a particular quirk of this match engine that makes something else even more vital to success - domination in wide areas. I'm seeing a TON of goals from crosses, both for and against myself. I think that's the main thing at the moment. I'm even starting to gravitate towards leaving "play wider" by default at all times, which I wouldn't do in previous FMs because it leaves you so exposed down the middle (although 2 DMs help greatly there).

Has anyone else tried a 4-1-2-1-2 formation with Arsenal? I am having relative success but I can't seem to get the best out of Ozil as a Enganche behind the front two, Cazorla does great there.

That is a very interesting plan and I can see what you're going for however TM+F9+EG looks like far too static a front trio for me. The TM and EG won't move. The F9, I'm not sure how it works but I'm assuming it'll only move deeper - into the EG's path. Besides I really don't think Podolski is well suited to a F9 role at all, all he seems good for is pace and shooting. Actually I'm having a nightmare using Podolski, he doesn't seem to fit anywhere and unfortunately no other club wanted to take him off my hands.

[noikeee]

Arsenal 1-2 Sunderland: Plan B proves inadequate for the first time, and the solution is unclear

I really played too much FM today (and wrote far too much), and on the afternoon did a few more matches, all on plan B, with some minor tweakings here and there in response to whatever happened. I did get a feeling we were never really 100% convincing in any match but the wins kept flying in, and culminated with a spectacular 5-1 result over Leverkusen in the Champions League, our supposedly toughest opponents yet:

Variations used included:

- Counter strategy when being pushed back by teams losing and looking to get a goal vs us

- "Play wider" to open up space in the opposition's defence, and/or get closer to teams posing threat to us down the wings

- "Get stuck in" when in need to push the game forward vs teams that were playing too much of the match too close to our area

- Telling our wingers to man-mark the opposition full-backs when I felt leaving them free caused too much danger for the opposition

- Attacking strategy when needing a goal, which we needed vs West Ham as we briefly went one goal down.

None of this seemed to work versus a resilient Sunderland side that set up on the classic 4-3-3 formation with 1 DM, 2 MCs and 2 AMR/Ls. I was without Cazorla, Wilshere and Rosicky (all injured), who are my options for the tucked in midfielder on the left, so tried Özil in there as the closest thing to it, putting Vela as the trequartista which has worked very well recently when resting Özil. That is not ideal because Özil is left footed so tends to drift left and refrain from playing those lovely through balls Cazorla plays. Özil would have quite a poor match.

But what I noticed very early was that this was one of those matches where we just couldn't control it. Moreover they scored in a direct free-kick immediately at the start of the match. You would think they'd sit back from here onwards, but instead kept on playing close to our area down those dangerous flanks, and we were creating nothing ourselves, so I was forced to go with both "Play Wider" and "Get Stuck In". This did get us higher up the field, but still creating nothing.

We did eventually get a goal through a rare break down the left from Coentrão who crossed into Walcott, but early in the 1st half one of the many free-kicks we were conceding due to our "get stuck in" instructions (a big downside) resulted in a Sunderland goal and we were screwed. Then I noticed something extremely alarming going on - every time Arteta and Behrami had the ball, one of Sunderland's MCs would tackle them and dispossess them. Our DMs were taking far too much time on the ball. This is the first time I've felt I missed a FM13 option, which is to untick "hold up ball"! I told them both to "play more direct passes", plus a general "higher tempo" team shout, in hope this would make them hurry up. They sort of did, but we kept on creating nothing, and lost the match.

I really am quite dumbfounded as to what should I've been doing differently here. Sunderland's formation is one of those very difficult to break down, and then we had no overload on midfield - our 2 DMs picked up by their 2 MCs, and our AM picked up by their DM. Özil from the left didn't work as a 4th man (nor did Oxlade-Chamberlain who I brought in later on as Inside Forward). Then Sunderland combined the strategy of sitting deep, with telling their 2 bulldog MCs to press and tackle hard, and it completely killed our midfield. We did have possession, but no penetration whatsoever and kept on conceding dangerous free-kicks. Over the wings it was a defeat as well, as their defensive fullbacks dealt with the danger. We very rightly lost this match and I don't know what lessons to take from it to improve. Maybe it was just a bad day?

[Typhoon]

Playing around with your formation a bit, and this is generally what happens when my strikers have a bad day in the office. I have both Giroud/Benteke as my strikers, and this generally happens when they have a bad day and miss opportunities. There were times where I had 24 shots, 12 on target, and didn't score a single goal. Perhaps check where the shots were taken from and see if they were sitters or hard chances. If most of the shots on target are from a long distance, then you could probably work the ball into the box, but if they're sitters, no real way to prevent your team having a bad day (could always get a player with good finishing, like RVP...)

[Simsejensen77]

Yo Nokiee.. How do you make those images?

Id like to experiment with that aswell.

[noikeee]

this11.com is the website I use for those drawings

[Koki]

What instructions do you use to keep the ST, AML, AMC and AMR behind the ball? I find myself heavily outnumbered at the back, how do you cope with that in your Arsenal saves?

[Guest]

Findings so far with your tweaked plan b version

Only played 2 competitive games but both wins with good performances first game of the season was a 3-1 home win against Swansea , next up was a home game against Red Bull Salzburg in the champions league qualifier,I would say we had complete control from start to finish winning 3-0

Possession 54%

shots 21 on target 13.

The player who is standing out for me at present is Wilshere in the amc position and Ramsey really plays well in the dm spot as a dlp/s

will add Salzburg lined up as a 4-4-2 but did change to a narrow 5-3-1-1

[tommonufc]

How do we recommend taking control of a game that you may otherwise be completely overruled.

Two of my recent last games, I am now playing as Arsenal, have seen me unable to get a touch of the ball - a 2-1 away defeat to Wigan in FA Cup, and now a 3-0 away defeat to Swansea.

I find that if I play counter attack I can't see to get much of a purchase on things my self, and end up being far too reactive. If I play control I leave too much space, and either way my pressing and general system of getting the ball back just doesn't seem to work at all away from home or at home to anyone of any ability.

[OZIL77]

Ozil for me really does't do the job he only passes long ranges and has excellent vision but when it comes to dribbling there's better players on my team but in real life the guy can dribble : )

[noikeee]

What instructions do you use to keep the ST, AML, AMC and AMR behind the ball? I find myself heavily outnumbered at the back, how do you cope with that in your Arsenal saves?

I've experimented with telling AML and AMR to man-mark the opposition full-back to make sure they help out more. That being said 4-2-3-1 just has a tendency to be outnumbered at the back yeah and I am suffering with it as well. If you think about it, it's inherent to the formation - you've got 4 players in attacking positions! It's just like 4-2-4 except one of the strikers is deeper and to make things worse defensively, he's a Trequartista in my setup.

I'm reaching the dreaded conclusion that Özil may be a luxury player. To get the better out of him, you'd want him as Trequartista most matches, and the Treq just doesn't defend. Even if you gave him a different, more responsible role, he lacks work rate and determination to truly help out in defence effectively. Fabulous player but poses problems.

Findings so far with your tweaked plan b version

Only played 2 competitive games but both wins with good performances first game of the season was a 3-1 home win against Swansea , next up was a home game against Red Bull Salzburg in the champions league qualifier,I would say we had complete control from start to finish winning 3-0

Possession 54%

shots 21 on target 13.

The player who is standing out for me at present is Wilshere in the amc position and Ramsey really plays well in the dm spot as a dlp/s

will add Salzburg lined up as a 4-4-2 but did change to a narrow 5-3-1-1

Looking good then. I am getting surprisingly good performances out of Ramsey as well who I've been retraining to DM - clearly better performances than Arteta or Flamini for example - and I have no idea why.

How do we recommend taking control of a game that you may otherwise be completely overruled.

Two of my recent last games, I am now playing as Arsenal, have seen me unable to get a touch of the ball - a 2-1 away defeat to Wigan in FA Cup, and now a 3-0 away defeat to Swansea.

I find that if I play counter attack I can't see to get much of a purchase on things my self, and end up being far too reactive. If I play control I leave too much space, and either way my pressing and general system of getting the ball back just doesn't seem to work at all away from home or at home to anyone of any ability.

See my reply to Koki, it is a problem. And I haven't solved it yet - the match to Sunderland exemplified it perfectly as nothing I did seemed to turn things around in our favour, it was one of those matches were we seemed doomed.

Generally with plan A I am assuming I can keep the opposition constantly opened and out of position, too dazzled by our high tempo. With plan B I am assuming I can hold on to possession and patiently nudge the match closer and closer to their area, until an opening surges or at least we get a chance to cross. We should be able to do either in most matches as we are Arsenal. Problem is, sometimes we don't as the opposition manages to hassle us - it seems to be a problem particularly when the opposition is physically aggressive. Even with Behrami my midfield is still lightweight. Sometimes those variations work - push wider, get stuck into tackles, switching to control strategy, etc. When they don't, like against Sunderland, I think the solution may be a change in formation. Possibly even comitting the cardinal sin of dropping Özil! To still be able to accomodate him, the only thing that occurs to me is a 4-4-1-1 - wingers dropped further and working harder defensively.

I need even more experimenting! Liverpool away fixture coming soon, I think that may be plan C's debut.

[noikeee]

Liverpool 2-4 Arsenal: Plan C works surprisingly well

I reckoned a trip to Anfield was the perfect timing for myself to test out plan C - Liverpool were gonna attack us patiently and dominate possession with their 4-3-3 formation, enjoying home advantage and formidable wide forwards like Luis Suarez, so why not soak up pressure with a solid formation (more so than a 4-2-3-1), invite their full-backs to join the party upfront as well, and hit them back on the counter with pace down the flanks? We lined up on a 4-3-3 ourselves as well, with just a few tweaks from my initial plan on the opening post:

Obviously the idea was to exploit Walcott's pace as much as possible, particularly since he's on amazing form - 7 goals scored in all competitions prior to this match. I told Cazorla and Özil to play more direct passes thinking about it. Özil's role became sort of a mix between Cazorla's usual tucked-in left role and Özil's usual AMC role as Trequartista - he'd play tucked in, keeping an high on the full-back with "mark tighter" (I do this regularly anyway), but with "roam from position" to use his excellent off-the-ball skills.

The plan came together immediately as the match started. Özil intercepted a ball in an extremely deep position, and played a magnificent very long range pass to Walcott, who took it, ran at the defenders at full speed and scored. Liverpool were now on the back foot for the rest of the match.

1st goal - Özil's deep positioning when he plays an impossibly long ball over to Walcott for the wide forward to score

The rest of the match was a tale of ourselves containing Liverpool's threat reasonably well, and creating chances seemingly out of nothing in set pieces despite having little posssession. Liverpool did equalize through a long shot by Gerrard (I did like the fact we restricted them to mostly long shots, but sometimes they go in!), but their advantage didn't last as we took a goal in a corner right next. We'd score late twice in the 2nd half, through a penalty kick and another corner, and there was still time for Liverpool to finally manage to get a cross in for a 2nd goal. I felt that it was unfair for our defence to concede 2 as they did a good job.

Notice that the amount of clear cut chances in our favour, whilst this is a dodgy statistic, is more important to me than Liverpool's high amount of shots and possession. This tells me the win was fair and the tactic worked as intended:

A minor point to make, as an alternative to consider in future matches, is that with 5 minutes to go I introduced Podolski on the left for Özil and Vela on the right for Walcott - by reversing roles, so Podolski became the Walcott-like W/A and Vela the Özil-like AP/s. It was too late do anything, but I did something similar in the previous match vs Wigan on the cup where Podolski's top class finishing saved us from an embarassing result (we won 3-2 after my mistake of playing plan A for too long). I finally found a use for Podolski!

[Mark.]

Your plan C is kind of how I envisage trying to play with a Arsenal side including Ozil.

I wonder if you can develop this base into a tactic to use when you are dominating possession?

[RossoneriGunner]

What I did was took a look at the 'Barcelona Tiki Taka' tactic and liked the way the players interacted but I also liked my team settings so what I did was used my Team settings and the Tiki Taka players instructions and called it 'Arselona' and after using it in FM13 I won the Prem by 18 points with 4 games to go and never lost a match and the only cup I missed out on was the Champions League after a 4-3 agg defeat by Barcelona.

Now we have Özil I decided to try the 4-2-3-1 and like yourself found I was leaking goals so I am now going back to my 'Arselona' your Plan C tactic.

Arselona Tactic......

[Babak G]

Liverpool 2-4 Arsenal: Plan C works surprisingly well

I reckoned a trip to Anfield was the perfect timing for myself to test out plan C - Liverpool were gonna attack us patiently and dominate possession with their 4-3-3 formation, enjoying home advantage and formidable wide forwards like Luis Suarez, so why not soak up pressure with a solid formation (more so than a 4-2-3-1), invite their full-backs to join the party upfront as well, and hit them back on the counter with pace down the flanks? We lined up on a 4-3-3 ourselves as well, with just a few tweaks from my initial plan on the opening post:

Obviously the idea was to exploit Walcott's pace as much as possible, particularly since he's on amazing form - 7 goals scored in all competitions prior to this match. I told Cazorla and Özil to play more direct passes thinking about it. Özil's role became sort of a mix between Cazorla's usual tucked-in left role and Özil's usual AMC role as Trequartista - he'd play tucked in, keeping an high on the full-back with "mark tighter" (I do this regularly anyway), but with "roam from position" to use his excellent off-the-ball skills.

The plan came together immediately as the match started. Özil intercepted a ball in an extremely deep position, and played a magnificent very long range pass to Walcott, who took it, ran at the defenders at full speed and scored. Liverpool were now on the back foot for the rest of the match.

1st goal - Özil's deep positioning when he plays an impossibly long ball over to Walcott for the wide forward to score

The rest of the match was a tale of ourselves containing Liverpool's threat reasonably well, and creating chances seemingly out of nothing in set pieces despite having little posssession. Liverpool did equalize through a long shot by Gerrard (I did like the fact we restricted them to mostly long shots, but sometimes they go in!), but their advantage didn't last as we took a goal in a corner right next. We'd score late twice in the 2nd half, through a penalty kick and another corner, and there was still time for Liverpool to finally manage to get a cross in for a 2nd goal. I felt that it was unfair for our defence to concede 2 as they did a good job.

Notice that the amount of clear cut chances in our favour, whilst this is a dodgy statistic, is more important to me than Liverpool's high amount of shots and possession. This tells me the win was fair and the tactic worked as intended:

A minor point to make, as an alternative to consider in future matches, is that with 5 minutes to go I introduced Podolski on the left for Özil and Vela on the right for Walcott - by reversing roles, so Podolski became the Walcott-like W/A and Vela the Özil-like AP/s. It was too late do anything, but I did something similar in the previous match vs Wigan on the cup where Podolski's top class finishing saved us from an embarassing result (we won 3-2 after my mistake of playing plan A for too long). I finally found a use for Podolski!

Did you maintain the 4-2-3-1 as a base and amended it or did you create a new tactic from scratch?

[Koki]

I've experimented with telling AML and AMR to man-mark the opposition full-back to make sure they help out more. That being said 4-2-3-1 just has a tendency to be outnumbered at the back yeah and I am suffering with it as well. If you think about it, it's inherent to the formation - you've got 4 players in attacking positions! It's just like 4-2-4 except one of the strikers is deeper and to make things worse defensively, he's a Trequartista in my setup.

I'm reaching the dreaded conclusion that Özil may be a luxury player. To get the better out of him, you'd want him as Trequartista most matches, and the Treq just doesn't defend. Even if you gave him a different, more responsible role, he lacks work rate and determination to truly help out in defence effectively. Fabulous player but poses problems.

Gonna try the man-mark thing.

On my save, ManCity offer out Javi Garcia for 325k. Might be worth for some people in here trying to strengthen the DM department. He can also be used as an emergency DC (competent). Only problem is his wage.

[RossoneriGunner]

Went back to my 'Arselona' tactic for this friendly match against Salzburg......luvvly jubbly!

[noikeee]

Your plan C is kind of how I envisage trying to play with a Arsenal side including Ozil.

I wonder if you can develop this base into a tactic to use when you are dominating possession?

Yeah I reckon a possession-based 4-3-3 could work. I didn't go that route at the start because:

1) I'd prefer playing Özil in his best position

2) I tried a possession 4-3-3 in FM13 and failed pretty badly although it was at a much lower level

I have a home fixture vs Man Utd coming up and might just line up like that there. Plan C formation but with Plan B shouts/instructions.

What I did was took a look at the 'Barcelona Tiki Taka' tactic and liked the way the players interacted but I also liked my team settings so what I did was used my Team settings and the Tiki Taka players instructions and called it 'Arselona' and after using it in FM13 I won the Prem by 18 points with 4 games to go and never lost a match and the only cup I missed out on was the Champions League after a 4-3 agg defeat by Barcelona.

Now we have Özil I decided to try the 4-2-3-1 and like yourself found I was leaking goals so I am now going back to my 'Arselona' your Plan C tactic.

Arselona Tactic......

No Walcott? I suppose if you're winning comfortably like that Red Bull Salzburg match it's great and there's no point in changing, but Walcott has been absolutely fabulous for me, unless he drops in form I couldn't dream of dropping him.

Did you maintain the 4-2-3-1 as a base and amended it or did you create a new tactic from scratch?

It was a slight amendment of my 3rd tactic as shown in the opening post. I think I actually copied the 2nd tactic from the 1st, and the 3rd from the 2nd back then, it wasn't from total scratch but it really doesn't matter either way.

[RossoneriGunner]

......No Walcott? I suppose if you're winning comfortably like that Red Bull Salzburg match it's great and there's no point in changing, but Walcott has been absolutely fabulous for me, unless he drops in form I couldn't dream of dropping him.

He had played in the last 2 friendlies and was knackered......

[Typhoon]

Against Man U, I found the Plan C tactic does work, but it only worked for me when I had to mark players manually (so wingers were always closed down). Utd were playing a 4-5-1 against me, and by using the Plan C, and closing down, there were only able to threaten me through Nani on Left Wing and RVP.

One thing I notice is that Plan C really dominates some teams, but not others. Teams that play 4-5-1 will dominate in possession and I can only manage scrappy wins (2-1 against Man U 4-5-1, 1-1 (penalty win) against Barca) and if Cazorla/Ozil/Giroud have a decent day. Teams that play far more defensive (used England to beat Brazil 3-0 and they had a 4-2-2-2) will get torn apart. I'm still trying to figure out how to best adapt the team to possession football without having to sub my entire team off due to them being tired.

[llama3]

Noikeee - couldn't disagree more about Ozil - he is not an Arshavin with regards to work rate. He also has excellent team work. I have Ozil as an AP(S), it just works best with the balance of the team and helps him link play and sit and create more. Works well. Having the BWM(D) & DLP(S) in central midfield helps defensive issues out a bit.

[sirfletch2006]

Ive gone with the 4-2-3-1 shape with Arsenal but had to drop the 2 CM's to the DM position.

Top of the league in February, Giroud has scored 24 goals. I think the crossing may be slightly overpowered in the BETA, Gibbs has 11 assists and Sagna 14, mainly from crosses to Giroud.

What I really wanted to do though was have Ozil as a shadow striker and have him swap positions with Podolski who plays left wing, I think theres a bug preventing that from happening.

[imabearlol]

Difference Between 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3

I think people are a little mistaken on the differences between the 2 formations. 4-2-3-1 is inherently more defensive than a 4-3-3, utilising 4 attackers as opposed to 5 in the 4-3-3:

4-2-3-1

Front 4: AML, AMC, AMR, CF

Back 6: DL, DC, DC, DR, DM, DM

4-3-3

Front 5: CM, CM, AML, AMR, CF

Back 5: DL, DC, DC, DR, DM

In a 4-3-3 with a DM acting as a single pivot, he is tasked with building the attack from deep and staying available for passes to recycle possession should the attack break down. This lets the 2 CMs push forward into the vacant space between the opposition's defence and midfield and dictate play in this area. In a 4-2-3-1 the AM occupies this space full-time and is given more freedom to roam or push forward with the security of having 2 DMs behind him sharing the task of the single pivot between them.

The benefit of this is it's much easier to retain possession as the two DMs have the option of passing laterally to the other pivot in order to keep possession, while in a 4-3-3 the single DM is encouraged to pass vertically. In addition, when the team is in possession of the ball in wide positions each half of the double pivot can control their half of the pitch and be available as an option to receive an outlet pass, while a single DM has to do this alone.

The 4-2-3-1 is therefore more suited to retain possession in deeper areas while being more stable defensively. A 4-3-3 trades this stability to control the ball further up the pitch which in turn allows the AML/AMR to push further forward and act more as forwards. In a 4-2-3-1, the AML/AMR/CF must stay closer to the AM to help or one opposition DM tight marking him will ruin the team's main attacking outlet.

How a 4-2-3-1 Attacks

I found this post which explains it perfectly http://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/16177y/can_someone_please_explain_to_me_what_a_double/c7rqr13

The basic way that two teams attack each other in modern football is a 4 vs 6 pattern. The 'Front 4' of a team means the wingers, the striker(s) and /or the attacking midfielder. These are the players that move ahead of the ball and try to open up holes in the opposition area. The 'Back 6' are the fullbacks, centerbacks, and central midfielders. These are the players who move behind the ball and look to make passes or crosses in to one of the 'Front 4' to get them into a better shooting/crossing position.

In general, attacking 4 v 6 doesn't achieve too much on its own.

The way you break down the 4 v 6 pattern, and create chances, is by overloading certain zones and creating numerical advantages in one are of the pitch (right, left, or center). There are numerous ways to achieve this:

To achieve an overload on the wing, and create space for an attacking player to get in behind the defense, you need two things to happen: You need a central player from the front 4 (Striker or attacking midfielder) to move to the wing and occupy a defensive player, assuring your winger is not double marked. Then, you need a fullback to make a run, become the 3rd attacking player in a zone defended by only two players, and quickly exploit the space created before the defense has a chance to reorganize themselves.

The way that you create an overload in the center is by taking a 'Back 6' player out of a defensive position, and to provide a similar run to a fullback in the previous example. A striker will often be occupying both centerbacks (one to make a tackle or interception, moving towards the ball, and one to react and collect the ball once it is won for the defending team), and your attacking midfielder or second striker will be occupied by one of the opposition central midfielders (the other of whom is likely to be pressing the ball further up the pitch). To create an overload in this area, you need whichever central midfielder is unoccupied at any given time to make a run forward, just like a fullback would outside, to pull defenders out of shape, and to create space for an attacker to receive a ball behind the defense.

The basic concept of having one striker, one attacking midfielder, and two defensive midfielders often leads to a situation like this, where one central midfielder of the team in possession will be let unoccupied, simply due to numerical limits on how many people can be marked at once without abandoning the shape of the team. The Double Pivot is the term for these two central midfielders who need to intelligently run past the opposition midfield to create space, and chances, against a packed defense. And, more crucially, one of them needs to stay back to collect opposition clearances and attempted passes to their own strikers.

This means that you need two players who are comfortable in their reading of the game, and can both perform the above listed duties - because if the defense knows which midfielder will run forward every time, they can simply mark him out of the game as easily as any other statically positioned player on the attacking side. Two players, two jobs whilst in possession, and both must be able to complete both jobs at a moments notice.

I think people are finding it much harder to setup a 4-2-3-1 because this formation must utilise movement to create space and numerical advantages in certain areas. I find controlling movement like this is difficult in FM, not to mention setting up a double pivot so that either of the CMs can push up while the other defends. I see a few posts here that mention that while they are scoring many goals, they are also conceding too many. I see this as due to their double pivot being set up incorrectly and being too attacking, creating a Front 6/Back 4 situation. It's much easier to balance a 4-3-3 split evenly between a Front 5/Back 5.

Using This Knowledge to Create An Effective 4-2-3-1

I'm actually experimenting with a 4-4-1-1, because while you can account for attacking movement in some way it is much harder to do so defensively. A 4-4-1-1 formation is far superior to a 4-2-3-1 without the ball as the space between the fullbacks and the wingers is much smaller. Allowing the opposition to have too much space in this area is very dangerous especially with the current ME iteration where wing play is very strong. Also you can setup in such a way that the opposition has to beat 2 banks of 8 players (4-4) rather than 2 banks of 6 (4-2) where the wingers don't contribute much defensively.

This is my current setup in progress:

Mentality

Standard/Counter: Control is more suited to a 4-3-3 where possession can be kept higher up the pitch.

Undecided: I want my pivot to play a very specific role, hence I initially set it to Rigid or Balanced, and the team can still use movement to create opportunities as I will allow certain players to roam to do so. I'm also considering a Fluid setup as a Front 4/Back 6 sounds like it's split between Attack/Defence but I do want one of my pivot and my full backs to join the attack when the opportunity is right. I still need to experiment with this.

SK(d): I prefer a Sweeper Keeper as with possession football you tend to hold a higher line. The option to launch a quick counter from GK to the wings is also nice.

WB(a): As I'm playing Santi narrower and less advanced, we need an option to stay wide and high to stretch the play and offer a threat for crossing which is especially effective with Giroud in the team who is strong in the air. With Podolski I may set him to a WB(s) to keep numbers in the midfield zone.

CD(d): I may switch to a Cover/Stopper combo against another 4-2-3-1 or a 4-5-1. Otherwise I will keep it as d-d.

CD(d): As above

WB(a): Get Forward shout needs to be activated as I'm playing with a high Winger on the right side (Walcott) and want him to have an option close by to pass to.

WM(a): Sit Narrower and Roaming shouts to try and get Santi to play like an AP(s) in the AML position in a 4-2-3-1. I may experiment with a Get Forward shout if I find he's too passive in the ML position.

CM(d): Short Passing, Less Risky Passing and Mark Tighter for Flamini to keep it simple. I set individual Player Instructions to take the passing shouts off Arteta and set him to play as a DLP(d) instead.

BBM(s): Mark Tighter to have my double pivot try and cut down passing options when my forwards press further up the pitch. After much experimenting, I find the BBM works better than DLP here as he contributes more defensively but helps distribute the ball forward without being set as a playmaker and forcing attacks to go through him. With intelligent players such as Ramsey/Wilshere they will not get forward too far if the Wing Backs have bombed up the pitch, keeping the double pivot intact but will still find the right time to get in the box to score. It really looks like how Ramsey/Wilshere play this position in real life.

W(a): Get Forward shout to try and set his mentality as high as possible while still keeping him in line with the Midfield without the ball.

AP(?): More Roaming and Mark Tighter. I want him to roam around and find space to receive the ball. If the opposition have a DM and tight mark our AM he can still drag their DM out of position so the BBM can get forward unmarked. I change between support and attack duty depending on what I see in-game. If I feel we lack options in the box I'll set him to attack, if I feel we lack link-up play I'll set him to support.

DLF(a): Move Into Channels, More Roaming and Mark Tighter. I want him to move around and drag defenders out of position as much as possible.

So far this system is working well, looking like a 4-4-1-1 in defence, a 4-2-3-1 in deep possession and a 4-3-3 in advanced position (as the BBM moves up). I may even change this to a Pep style 4-1-4-1 in the future if I can get a player on the same level as Schweini. I'll play more with this system tonight when I get back from work for further testing.

[Guest]

update: Plan B (tweaked version) working very well Noikeee.

So I had 2 home games in the premier league coming up against Man city and Chelsea , plan b with the midfield positional change to to the dm spots has proved to work very well so far

I beat Man city 2-0 , next game against top of the table Chelsea was going to be tougher as they were on a good run also , in the end we ran out 4-2 winners , Chelsea had slightly better possession , player of the match was Giroud scoring a hat-trick!! and Ozil also performing brilliantly in the amc position.

Plan B is working and will be used as my main tactic and will try out your plan c when I get a tough away game.

cheers

[Fabian Jonsson]

@Imabearlol: excellent addition to the thread.

In a 4-3-3 with a DM acting as a single pivot, he is tasked with building the attack from deep and staying available for passes to recycle possession should the attack break down.

I often play a 1-2 midfield and (for the reasons you've stated above) often consider the DM to be my key player. He really has to be good under pressure, as the opposition will often apply heavy pressure on him. Busquets is probably the perfect example of a DM suitable for a 4-3-3 (which is why Guardiola praised him so much) - with extremely high values for composure, decisions, first touch, passing and positioning.

[imabearlol]

Thanks!

I think that's why a 4-2-3-1 formation is more common than a 1 DM variant in real life - there are not many players that can combine defensive attributes with the ability to pass accurately everytime. Barca with Busquets like you mentioned or Bayern with Lahm/Schweinsteiger are the ones that stand out. It could also work to have a Regista in there like Pirlo but that means sacrificing attacking freedom on one of your CMs.

[Jongii]

I'm 5 games into my season with Arsenal, won all five, but Ozil is yet to score or create an assist. He has however created 18 Key Passes and hit the woodwork 4 times. His average rating is 7.2 but I get the feeling that with a bit of better luck it could have been 9.2.

[Rodgery1]

Hi guys, very interesting thread as I'm also playing Arsenal trying to get the best out of Özil. He's been quite prolific for me as a treq behind Giroud, notching up a point-a-game for the first 9 games. Since then I've run into problems. Won a ManU game at Old Trafford, very luckily, and then went on to loose against chelsea at home, dortmund away, and newcastle away.

The tactics I've found doesn't matter that much, I try to be both proactive beforehand, marking and closing down where I see fit, and then being reactive once the game gets going. It just doesn't seem to matter, and I want to blame the motivation. My players are 2nd on all balls, the passes are to weak and doesn't reach their intended targets.. Loose all 50/50 tackles.

This is a golden opportunity that we're all playing the same team, with roughly the same players, how do you motivate your players? How do you motivate Özil? I've found he plays awfully when I try to take the pressure of the players. (the chelsea game and the dortmund game he was at around 6.0). Both Walcott and Cazorla has been quite good for me, but they're also hard to motivate. How do you guys motivate the players?

My only additions are revelliere, schmelzer, bender, vela and Morata(backup)

[RossoneriGunner]

Rodgery1, take a look at this link written by Cleon, I use this all the time now.