The Yorkshireman, A Libero and No Strikers!

[SJ234]

This is very interesting. How flexible would you say this shape is?

[arcadius]

I don't use a treq, I use an AP

But the answer would be no to all those questions

hmm

On 2 of Your 3 sceenshots You have T next to IF...

[Hagi_07]

Good read Cleon as I've been thinking and looking at a 3-4-1-2 formation based on the 1997 Parma team (with Veron pulling the strings) as well as a Bielsa style 3-3-1-3 for a while. The one thing I can't get past is that against a team playing with one striker (which is probably much more prominent these days) its really a waste to have 3 defenders. I'd rather keep one spare man and commit that extra defender to attack ie. back 4 with attacking fullbacks, but then I accept that you can have a libero step forward and start moves.

At the moment I play a 4-1-3-2 with an anchorman who essentially becomes my 3rd defend against a front two but can become a DMC who start attacks if the opposition play with a lone striker. Thats a personal preference of course but I suppose its close to what Guardiola started to do at Barca with Busquets becoming almost a 3rd ball playing central defender allowing Alves and Abidal to get forward. Very common these days, see Schweinsteiger in the CL final against Dortmund in the second half. Indeed when my 4-1-3-2 came up against a very agressive 3-5-2 I changed my anchorman to a DLP defend and it worked a treat. He dropped right back between my DC's and started moves all the time.

I'd still like to think about a 3-4-1-2 or 3-3-1-3 though. Just to mix it up a bit.

[Cleon]

This is very interesting. How flexible would you say this shape is?

In what way?

You can see from the analysis that it can provide a back 5. I have players covering all areas of the pitch if needs. Not sure I fully understand in what context.

[Cleon]

hmm

On 2 of Your 3 sceenshots You have T next to IF...

I did say in the the posts that I don't actually use those formations, I just use them to learn different strategies etc The settings I use are all in the first screen where I discuss my tactic

[Cleon]

Good read Cleon as I've been thinking and looking at a 3-4-1-2 formation based on the 1997 Parma team (with Veron pulling the strings) as well as a Bielsa style 3-3-1-3 for a while. The one thing I can't get past is that against a team playing with one striker (which is probably much more prominent these days) its really a waste to have 3 defenders. I'd rather keep one spare man and commit that extra defender to attack ie. back 4 with attacking fullbacks, but then I accept that you can have a libero step forward and start moves.

At the moment I play a 4-1-3-2 with an anchorman who essentially becomes my 3rd defend against a front two but can become a DMC who start attacks if the opposition play with a lone striker. Thats a personal preference of course but I suppose its close to what Guardiola started to do at Barca with Busquets becoming almost a 3rd ball playing central defender allowing Alves and Abidal to get forward. Very common these days, see Schweinsteiger in the CL final against Dortmund in the second half. Indeed when my 4-1-3-2 came up against a very agressive 3-5-2 I changed my anchorman to a DLP defend and it worked a treat. He dropped right back between my DC's and started moves all the time.

I'd still like to think about a 3-4-1-2 or 3-3-1-3 though. Just to mix it up a bit.

You'd either use a libero or push him upto the DM slot. The way my libero plays especially against a lone striker formation would be more of a DMC/MC than an actual defender. This was one of the reasons for using a libero myself, so I didn't waste a player in defence

[Hagi_07]

Hence the lack of a DMC in the first place I suppose, so there is space for the libero to move into. Very interesting.

[arcadius]

I did say in the the posts that I don't actually use those formations, I just use them to learn different strategies etc The settings I use are all in the first screen where I discuss my tactic

My bad Cleon I have to sleep more... :/

[Puni]

As I've got a squad that has a lot of talent in the central midfield (both attacking and defending), but lacking up front due to the forced sale of my two star strikers, I decided to give this a go. I'm current retraining my DM to play in the libero slot, for which he has all the necessary qualities apart from the dribbling stat while I look for someone who would fit the bill even better. What I have noticed though, is that I sometimes have trouble getting clear chances, where my players instead tend to shoot from way too far out (even with work ball into box). I'm also struggling against flat 4-5-1 formations, as I seem to be losing grasp on the midfielders who make runs into space. Any suggestions on how to counter this? All in all, I'm very happy with the result so far though. A lot of possession and defensively way more sound than how I used to play for the past few seasons.

[SJ234]

In what way? You can see from the analysis that it can provide a back 5. I have players covering all areas of the pitch if needs. Not sure I fully understand in what context.

Yeah I noticed the back 5. Presumably the Libero pushes up to play like a DM at times. Do the front two play a bit like strikers? Do they look to get in behind in the same way? How do you push the opposition back?As you pass it out of the back do you not sometimes find against top teams you can't get the forward players on the ball?

[Mighty Red]

I'm interested in the defensive side of things - it helps the understanding... but I'm really holding out for the explanations on the strikerless aspects...this really intrigues me

[lam]

Hence the lack of a DMC in the first place I suppose, so there is space for the libero to move into. Very interesting.

This formation/tactic offers fantastic cover in relation to tight marking AMC's if they are troublesome. I'm a big fan of tight marking AMC's and creative MC's (until they switch sides) and with 5+1 in midfield (the +1 being libero) then you have more than enough men available.

[lam]

As I've got a squad that has a lot of talent in the central midfield (both attacking and defending), but lacking up front due to the forced sale of my two star strikers, I decided to give this a go. I'm current retraining my DM to play in the libero slot, for which he has all the necessary qualities apart from the dribbling stat while I look for someone who would fit the bill even better. What I have noticed though, is that I sometimes have trouble getting clear chances, where my players instead tend to shoot from way too far out (even with work ball into box). I'm also struggling against flat 4-5-1 formations, as I seem to be losing grasp on the midfielders who make runs into space. Any suggestions on how to counter this? All in all, I'm very happy with the result so far though. A lot of possession and defensively way more sound than how I used to play for the past few seasons.

Try using the 'play wider' shout. I find at times the middle of the park and around the box become very busy and more width often helps resolve this. By creating more space you are giving your players passing options too, therefore you should see the long shots drop off.

[AnarchyAnt]

Try using the 'play wider' shout. I find at times the middle of the park and around the box become very busy and more width often helps resolve this. By creating more space you are giving your players passing options too, therefore you should see the long shots drop off.

I'll second the "play wider" shout. Helps a ton!

[Jambo98]

Always get somewhat puzzled when people say use a specific shout every time to make a tactic work.........surely just change the setting(s) which the shout relates too..........means your players get more comfortable with it too..........

Anyway....Since im relaxing on holiday in the sun, I felt like giving a Libero tactic a go. Playing as AC Milan (first season). I have a thought to try Ambrosini in that role, as despite lacking physicals he has many of the other attributes needed. For more defensive, I have bought Okore who I believe could be ideal for the role with the right training. Mexes is a sweeper option but I don't think he suits the Libero mould.

In front, at the moment im going with wingbacks. RWB on support (Abate) and LWB on attack (Antonini). Reasoning relates to my front 2 - STCL slot is Pazzing playing as either DLF(s) or Adv(a), in the other slot is Robinho as a Treq,either in the STCR slot or dropped into the AMCR slot. Either way he drifts more out wide, meaning want to leave that space for him and have Abate hanging deeper.

My middle 3 are BWM(s) - as want to win the ball higher up the park, and not congest the deep midfield, APM(a) who sits in the middle slot and gets forward, vacating space for the Libero. Third is a DLP(d) who is Montolivio, drops deeper to pick the ball up and links well with the RWB.

In its early days, not yet sure if wingbacks are going to work. If not the same players can easily be pushed into defensive wingers slots. Milan have a strong squad, with Nocerino, El Sharaway and Balotelli amongst those not even in my first 11.

[ModernLefty]

Always get somewhat puzzled when people say use a specific shout every time to make a tactic work.........surely just change the setting(s) which the shout relates too..........means your players get more comfortable with it too..........

I think it is so that it leaves the settings flexible and not set, so that when you use other shouts, or for a certain game may not need to use that certain shout, you still can.

I think its an adaptability thing about leaving possibilities open.

[Puni]

While I very much appreciate the logic behind the strategy, it's still not working as it should for me. I'm getting an awful lot of shots from distance, from players with plenty of passing options and with work ball into box. It's just lacking penetration for me, I don't get many runs forward and when I do, the ball's not played. It's ironic because the more my tactical preparation went up, the worse my results got. The thing is, I wouldn't mind not getting that many clear chances, but I'm actually giving away more than I create now. Although those are mostly down to defensive hickups, like my last game where I lost 3-0 to Sunderland. Twice someone went unmarked on a freekick and scored a tap in, and once my CDR lost possession, after which the other CD actually walked away from his man when the ball was crossed into the area.

I'm going to try pushing the IF and the AP into the striker slots, to see if I get better play up front.

Played the next game against Stoke with two strikers as said and I'm playing way better on the offensive part, but I'm still lacking in the back. Watching a full game did help me figuring out my problem though. The two CD's on stopper duty pushes them beyond the striker(s) for some reason, leaving those completely unmarked quite often. I'm not sure how to fix this,as both specific man marking and putting them on defend/cover didn't help.

[sakrai]

Yeah, not working for me either, I really don't get how do guys make tactics work, I have put over 300 hours between reading about FM and playing FM, last season I used a very generic 4-2-3-1 deep and it wasn't anything amazing, didn't win a single title.

Now, my 3-5-2 is doing really bad. I'm so tired of seeing my players doing stupid stuff, I lost count of how many times we start a counter attack and the players are running forward, suddenly they collide with each other and we lose the ball, or how many goals were conceded because we lost the ball near our own area.

Here's an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg8t430htoc

I can't believe that my best results are from friendlies against very weak opposition when the tactic was being learned and my Ass. Man was in control of the matches for me. I'm feeling so bad right now, I have never felt so compelled to save scum before, at this point this season is already lost, there is just no way I'm gonna catch Bayern. Probably gonna get sacked as well.

Sorry about the rant, I needed to vent

[lam]

Don't give up guys. It's these types of threads and formations/tactics that will teach you the game.

Some things I have found.

Be careful with your shouts. Despite earlier stating that 'playing wider' was a great shout it does have an impact on how your team play. I also started using 'take a breather' but that has an impact on forward runs etc etc.

I also started using the attacking strategy as I was dominating play so much, but that also puts pressure on the team to get the ball foward into the net quicker too, thus I came back to a pretty much standard setup of using the default instructions and then setting a manual width if required with very few shouts.

This has set me up defensively very nicely with no goals conceded in 7 games. However I am only still scoring 1 or two goals. I tend to fare a little better with the AMR(AP) as a TQ and I think this is for a few reasons. He tends to sit deeper and not crowd the box but allows others to run past him, he tends to look for the pass rather than dribbling into a position to shoot.

That said, Dembele has done very well in this position and he likes to run with the ball.

So, despite my results, there is still a lot of work to be done.

[nick1408]

I'm using the 3-5-2 to create a 3-4-3 as per New Zealand at the last World Cup. I have a pretty strong Everton side that won an UCL in the previous season. I have decided to go with the following setup:

GK

BPD (X)

LD ©

BPD (X)

DW (A)

DLP (S)

CM (D)

DW (S)

AF

T

AF

My concerns are the DLP may not be the right role for the formation and the two AF's. I went with the AF's as both players are very creative, quick and can pass. All three players could easily play as trequartistas but I only need the one to drop into the midfield to create the chances. The first game I tried this with I had a CM (S) instead of the DLP and I felt it didn't work.

What are your ideas on this? I felt I have matched the positions on the pitch fine, just may not the roles.

[Cleon]

As I've got a squad that has a lot of talent in the central midfield (both attacking and defending), but lacking up front due to the forced sale of my two star strikers, I decided to give this a go. I'm current retraining my DM to play in the libero slot, for which he has all the necessary qualities apart from the dribbling stat while I look for someone who would fit the bill even better. What I have noticed though, is that I sometimes have trouble getting clear chances, where my players instead tend to shoot from way too far out (even with work ball into box). I'm also struggling against flat 4-5-1 formations, as I seem to be losing grasp on the midfielders who make runs into space. Any suggestions on how to counter this? All in all, I'm very happy with the result so far though. A lot of possession and defensively way more sound than how I used to play for the past few seasons.

If you are shooting from distance a lot then you have an issue with your roles/duties and not got a lot of movement happening in the side. If there is no movement then there are no passing options and no space being created for people to use. I'd have a look at why your players are shooting from distance time after time.

[Cleon]

Yeah I noticed the back 5. Presumably the Libero pushes up to play like a DM at times. Do the front two play a bit like strikers? Do they look to get in behind in the same way? How do you push the opposition back?As you pass it out of the back do you not sometimes find against top teams you can't get the forward players on the ball?

Why would top teams stop me playing out from the back? My player are composed so they are fine under pressure. If the opposition presses me hard then my own players tend to find even more time on the ball and I find little pockets of space appearing which my players can exploit.

I don't push the opposition back either, as that would mean I'd have to break them down. I'd rather force them to come up the pitch which results in space/gaps which then my supporting players will run into and create chances. That's how I get around them.

[Cleon]

While I very much appreciate the logic behind the strategy, it's still not working as it should for me. I'm getting an awful lot of shots from distance, from players with plenty of passing options and with work ball into box. It's just lacking penetration for me,

I'm confused, you sat the players have passing options yet then say;

I don't get many runs forward and when I do, the ball's not played.

Which indicates to me you have no movement which means you actually lack good passing options. You need to understand your players and find out which roles suit them best for the benefit of the team.

The thing is, I wouldn't mind not getting that many clear chances, but I'm actually giving away more than I create now. Although those are mostly down to defensive hickups, like my last game where I lost 3-0 to Sunderland. Twice someone went unmarked on a freekick and scored a tap in, and once my CDR lost possession, after which the other CD actually walked away from his man when the ball was crossed into the area.

Stop focusing on CCC's everyone knows they have been broken for years and a CCC isn't actually a clear chance or a proper chance at times. Forget about them all together and the game will be a lot better. Instead focus on getting players into good areas and the rest will follow.

[Cleon]

Those who are struggling with results, are you trying to play the exact same as I did with the same settings? If so, that won't work for you unless you have identical players to mine or actually understand the roles I used and why and how it all works as a unit. If you lack at any of those then you'll struggle to mirror what I did.

You might be better off reading this post from my blog;

http://thechalkboarddiaries.com/?p=646

[Puni]

If you are shooting from distance a lot then you have an issue with your roles/duties and not got a lot of movement happening in the side. If there is no movement then there are no passing options and no space being created for people to use. I'd have a look at why your players are shooting from distance time after time.

I'm confused, you sat the players have passing options yet then say;

Which indicates to me you have no movement which means you actually lack good passing options. You need to understand your players and find out which roles suit them best for the benefit of the team.

I could probably have worded that last bit better. I got a lot of shots from distance when better options were available but in general, I was disappointed with the lack of runs my players were doing as it didn't seem to be enough for me. It might be that the issue was linked though, that's true.

Stop focusing on CCC's everyone knows they have been broken for years and a CCC isn't actually a clear chance or a proper chance at times. Forget about them all together and the game will be a lot better. Instead focus on getting players into good areas and the rest will follow.

For the record, I was talking about clear chances, not CCC's as described ingame. Good, solid chances without them necessarily been labeled as CCC, if you understand what I mean.

Those who are struggling with results, are you trying to play the exact same as I did with the same settings? If so, that won't work for you unless you have identical players to mine or actually understand the roles I used and why and how it all works as a unit. If you lack at any of those then you'll struggle to mirror what I did.

You might be better off reading this post from my blog;

http://thechalkboarddiaries.com/?p=646

I did change the AP(A) to an AP(S) and played the MCR as a CM(A), that may have been the issue. Either way, I've fixed things by moving the two ACM's up to the striker slots as a DLF/AF partnership and changing the CD's to cover. I'm getting far less exposed now and am actually creating a lot of good chances. Thanks for the feedback, I'll happily take a look at your blog. I always enjoy reading your posts, by the way.

[Cleon]

The next analysis piece I do will be about the attack because a few of you seem to be struggling with this part of it. I'll show you how I do it and how the link up

[nick1408]

I'm using the 3-5-2 to create a 3-4-3 as per New Zealand at the last World Cup. I have a pretty strong Everton side that won an UCL in the previous season. I have decided to go with the following setup:

GK

BPD (X)

LD ©

BPD (X)

DW (A)

DLP (S)

CM (D)

DW (S)

AF

T

AF

My concerns are the DLP may not be the right role for the formation and the two AF's. I went with the AF's as both players are very creative, quick and can pass. All three players could easily play as trequartistas but I only need the one to drop into the midfield to create the chances. The first game I tried this with I had a CM (S) instead of the DLP and I felt it didn't work.

What are your ideas on this? I felt I have matched the positions on the pitch fine, just may not the roles.

I've decided to change the back three a bit - Libero (A), and two CD (X). Also, I have adjusted the midfield pairing to a DLP and CM both on support. I am hoping this gives the required transition in midfield between the CD's and the trequartista before the AF's shoot the goals

[Cleon]

I've added some more analysis in post 5.

[lam]

I'm starting to wonder if my issue isn't having enough people running forwards earlier than most of them making runs at later stages.

We seem to have lots of patient build up play but then the box just seems massively crowded with both teams players. I think I might start to have the CM(S) as a CM(A) and see how it pans out.

Slightly frustratingly however, I'd normaly have an (A) next to a (D) but that is not how the default formation is set and I'll lose some of that BWM/DW(D) play setup.

Just lost to OL in the Euro final (no idea how I made it that far). 21 v 3 shots and the score from a flukey Cross almost from the byline..... bloody Lloris just watched it go over his head

[SJ234]

Why would top teams stop me playing out from the back? My player are composed so they are fine under pressure. If the opposition presses me hard then my own players tend to find even more time on the ball and I find little pockets of space appearing which my players can exploit.I don't push the opposition back either, as that would mean I'd have to break them down. I'd rather force them to come up the pitch which results in space/gaps which then my supporting players will run into and create chances. That's how I get around them.

I have struggled at times against top teams to get the ball out of defence. Which is quite surprising since my defence is pretty decent on the ball. Just can't seem to get it out to the more advanced players. Yeah I realised that after I posted it to such an extent I have fiddled with how my team lines up to embrace that. I was quite interested in what ham posted about using a Libero to add another creative option. Particularly since the game doesn't seem that keen on centre halfs coming out of defence like some do irl. Something I have only managed to get work on very fluid.

[Cleon]

I have struggled at times against top teams to get the ball out of defence. Which is quite surprising since my defence is pretty decent on the ball. Just can't seem to get it out to the more advanced players. Yeah I realised that after I posted it to such an extent I have fiddled with how my team lines up to embrace that. I was quite interested in what ham posted about using a Libero to add another creative option. Particularly since the game doesn't seem that keen on centre halfs coming out of defence like some do irl. Something I have only managed to get work on very fluid.

The way I use my libero is a creative one too, he's more of a DLP than an actual defender as you can see in the screenshots above. He always ventures forward when the opportunity is there.

If you are struggling to get the ball out of defence then have a look at the roles of the players linking the defence to midfield and midfield to strikers. This is more than likely the main issue if you can't get it forward without being pressed and losing it. It sounds like there could be a gap between then which is too great for how you've set up.

[SJ234]

The way I use my libero is a creative one too, he's more of a DLP than an actual defender as you can see in the screenshots above. He always ventures forward when the opportunity is there.

If you are struggling to get the ball out of defence then have a look at the roles of the players linking the defence to midfield and midfield to strikers. This is more than likely the main issue if you can't get it forward without being pressed and losing it. It sounds like there could be a gap between then which is too great for how you've set up.

Yeah I like that about it. Quite interesting that screenshot in that he makes most of his passes in two areas the tip of d of the area and at the top of the centre circle.

On that front I pretty much line up like you did with Spurs in terms of a 4-3-3. I think the issue possibly comes from Wilshere who is my AP has gets forward whenever possible ppm which presumably reduces the options for the deeper players at times

[AnarchyAnt]

Weston-super-mare get promoted to the BSP! Coach of the year the past 2 seasons!

I am thinking of taking baby steps towards the Libero and making my center CD a ball playing defender, switch my DM from deep lying playmaker to just DM and making one of my CMs a deep lying playmaker.

I was one goal off conceding the least amount of goals this season so hopefully I can keep my back 3 whose contracts are all up and that will give me a good base against the tougher competition.

[amirko]

This tread is extreamly good as all others from you but this thread made me ask following questions:

1. This is the most impressive tactic for me even I am never use this formation but I started to think how did you decided what roles to use. In beggining you probably knew that you want libero and no strikers. 3-5-2 formation need or defensive wingers or wing backs and it is ok for me. But how did you decide for exemple to use Ball winning midfielder, to be more precise did you know roles before testing or after? n

2. Also could you explain what roles are you using for getting ball from defence to midfield and which from midfield to attack. (to be more precise what is the diference if you use FB attack or support), if you use support what roles you are using for midfield and what if you have attacking backs?

3. How, why and when (before or after testing) you have decided to use very rigid philosophy. What is the main reason for philosophy. what diference would be if you have taken fluid philosophy? why you want such small creative freedom when you have creative players.

Thanks, and sorry for bad English.

[Cleon]

This tread is extreamly good as all others from you but this thread made me ask following questions:

1. This is the most impressive tactic for me even I am never use this formation but I started to think how did you decided what roles to use. In beggining you probably knew that you want libero and no strikers. 3-5-2 formation need or defensive wingers or wing backs and it is ok for me. But how did you decide for exemple to use Ball winning midfielder, to be more precise did you know roles before testing or after? n

2. Also could you explain what roles are you using for getting ball from defence to midfield and which from midfield to attack. (to be more precise what is the diference if you use FB attack or support), if you use support what roles you are using for midfield and what if you have attacking backs?

3. How, why and when (before or after testing) you have decided to use very rigid philosophy. What is the main reason for philosophy. what diference would be if you have taken fluid philosophy? why you want such small creative freedom when you have creative players.

Thanks, and sorry for bad English.

1 - I tested different roles during preseason to see which worked best for the set up I have and made everyone involved in play like I wanted them to be.

2- The libero takes the ball from defence to midfield and I don't really have an attack just midfield, so the AP/IF etc take the ball forward and attack. You can see this in some of the examples I've posted.

3 - I've already explained this in quite some detail at the beginning of the thread

[Cleon]

Sweet. I have just the player(s) for this sort of role and might give it a go. My defence is pretty solid, but it's nice sometimes against teams with 1 up top to be able to reduce the number of out-and-out defenders and put more creative options on the pitch.

In the summer break of 2019, so I might have a play during pre-season and see if it suits the rest of the team.

Did you ever give it a try?

[alvaan]

Excellent thread as always Cleon, and I have a couple of questions.

In my setup it's the DLP that has most of the ball and passes througout the team almost every game. Set the goalkeeper to distribute to the libero, and he does act as an extra midfielder and roams forward with the odd shot. None of my liberos are fully trained in the position yet, so I was curious to know if the ammount of passes increased when you had your player fully trained or not?

I also have noticed that if I play with defensive wingers, there are alot more longshots than if I use wingers, or if I dont use the 'play wider' and 'exploit the flanks' shouts.

The true test will be when I try it out in our clan game though, to see how it fairs against my fellow clansmen. Tried it a couple of games on versus mode, and it's done well against the normal 442's and 4231's. How would you setup if you faced a 352 with either flat 5 midfield or wingbacks?

[Cleon]

In my setup it's the DLP that has most of the ball and passes througout the team almost every game. Set the goalkeeper to distribute to the libero, and he does act as an extra midfielder and roams forward with the odd shot. None of my liberos are fully trained in the position yet, so I was curious to know if the ammount of passes increased when you had your player fully trained or not?

It depends what kind of libero he is. In my set up I have two different kinds of libero's. One who is better defensively and one better at attacking. But both tend to see more of the ball that anyone else in the team at times. The amount of passes will depend on how its set up with the roles around him and what strategy you use etc.

I also have noticed that if I play with defensive wingers, there are alot more longshots than if I use wingers, or if I dont use the 'play wider' and 'exploit the flanks' shouts.

Your defensive wingers shouldn't be taking more shots, in fact they should do less. It could be an issue with the roles around them and players not being free to pass to or offering support?

The true test will be when I try it out in our clan game though, to see how it fairs against my fellow clansmen. Tried it a couple of games on versus mode, and it's done well against the normal 442's and 4231's. How would you setup if you faced a 352 with either flat 5 midfield or wingbacks?

I outline the weaknesses of the tactic in the opening posts, I'd actually focus on those if you play the same formation. I'd also look at winning the midfield battle somehow, by maybe playing higher than normal so the defence is closer to the midfield.

[alvaan]

It's not so much the defensive wingers that take more shots, it seems to be the whole team. When I use wingers, they stay on the outside and seem to create alot more passing options for the midfield. With the defensive winger, they tend to both drift inside, so we then got 7 players tucked into a very small space. They create some sensational moves, and been dominating the AI with high ammount of possession and not many conceded due to the team having the ball so much.

When it comes to goals, it seems that most of them come from my wingers, and a few from the inside forward. I do however have an issue with any player who play in the AP/AMcr role. They all seem to struggle to get high ratings unless they happen to score, whether it's been Götze, Messi, Rooney or Thiago

[Cleon]

I've added new analysis to post 6

[Cleon]

I'm guessing this thread has gone over many peoples heads

[Gary_Parker]

I'm guessing this thread has gone over many peoples heads

Not at all. I'm not doing a lot of replying on it but i'm actively playing with both Libero and no strikers with my Saints game. Most of the kudos goes to yourself on that. I'm enjoying the updates as its more food for thought in my game.

Anyway, a question, i've had to limit my Libero to a support at the moment and introduce a DM until my defenders (both young and learning their role as one is a DM by initial trade) are accomplished. I'm not seeing any real impact on my Liberos performance and its as if both DM and Libero perform as two DMs infront of two centre backs at times. What i'm looking to do is introduce my defenders as BPDs and shift my DM back to the midfield to make a 5. Have you played with BPD stoppers in your game, if so what impact does that have on your Libero at all and what PPMs do you think would have a great influence on the defenders?

I was thinking of teaching them simple passes so instead of the long through balls they were looking for the Libero and the midfield guys instead?

[leggie1973]

hi cleon, i don't mind admitting that it is a little involved for me, while i'm not quite plug and play, i will 'automate' the game as much as i can - e.g. get a good motivator coach and use their options from the drop down box on team talks - i am enjoying the learning aspects of these new tactics. i quite understand that a download is not available, as a halfway house perhaps posting player instructions where they differ from defaults may be an idea. i have begun the process of tweaking - small things to start with such as all players on rarely for long shots to encourage possession, gk distribution to the libero, short passing on the cb's either side to encourage them to give it to the libero to bring forward and am now wondering whether i should set a playmaker for the libero to find. i have used rtherringbone's libero and it got my saints side right in the mix with ten games left until a super tough run-in left me wondering if counter as a setting is too negative for my squad. i currently have just one question - i'm considering changing the AP to a TQ, is the TQ a good way to go?

[Cleon]

Not at all. I'm not doing a lot of replying on it but i'm actively playing with both Libero and no strikers with my Saints game. Most of the kudos goes to yourself on that. I'm enjoying the updates as its more food for thought in my game.

Anyway, a question, i've had to limit my Libero to a support at the moment and introduce a DM until my defenders (both young and learning their role as one is a DM by initial trade) are accomplished. I'm not seeing any real impact on my Liberos performance and its as if both DM and Libero perform as two DMs infront of two centre backs at times. What i'm looking to do is introduce my defenders as BPDs and shift my DM back to the midfield to make a 5. Have you played with BPD stoppers in your game, if so what impact does that have on your Libero at all and what PPMs do you think would have a great influence on the defenders?

I was thinking of teaching them simple passes so instead of the long through balls they were looking for the Libero and the midfield guys instead?

Having BPD's and a libero would be risky as both like to play with the ball and bring it out from the back, it would cause a lot of problems and be pointless using a libero if you was to go that route. The whole point of the libero is to link the defence to the midfield and free up a spare defender. If you decide to use BPD'S then don't use a libero and use a flat back 3 instead.

[Gary_Parker]

Having BPD's and a libero would be risky as both like to play with the ball and bring it out from the back, it would cause a lot of problems and be pointless using a libero if you was to go that route. The whole point of the libero is to link the defence to the midfield and free up a spare defender. If you decide to use BPD'S then don't use a libero and use a flat back 3 instead.

I had considered that and it makes total sense. I suspect a 2 CD stopper with Libero is the wisest idea.

[olivermain83]

Just out of curiosity, why no strikers?

I see you've mentioned that you like a Libero as it makes sense when playing against 1 striker but I was just wondering why you wanted to play with no strikers too?

I only ask as you seem to put a lot of thought into every player in your team and are able to visualize how a system will play and what players are required. Planning 2 years down the line is something i struggle with so would appreciate your insight.

[Cleon]

Just out of curiosity, why no strikers?

I see you've mentioned that you like a Libero as it makes sense when playing against 1 striker but I was just wondering why you wanted to play with no strikers too?

I only ask as you seem to put a lot of thought into every player in your team and are able to visualize how a system will play and what players are required. Planning 2 years down the line is something i struggle with so would appreciate your insight.

To make my game harder as its not easy to get a strikerless formation to score a lot of goals and make my game more long term rather than the usual 3-5 seasons. That's it really. And the fact I'd been reading about Totti at Roma and how he became the false 9 by accident

[olivermain83]

Fair enough. The games hard enough as it is for me so i'll be keeping the strikers for now.

[AnarchyAnt]

Love the thread. Over my head? Probably.

I'm happy that this thread (along with you others) has finally gotten me to a formation I love. I started by doing almost an exact copy of your first formation with the strikers and no sweeper. As I mentioned before, I play as Weston-super-mare and was promoted to the BSP with that formation. Loved it, worked wonderfully, won the BSS outright with it. Got my *** handed to me in the Premier with it.

NOT YOUR FAULT!

After going through my stages of grief which involve me fast forwarding through games and paying even less attention, fighting right on the edge of regulation and falling short, I decided it was time to really analyze what I was doing. My players were seriously over-matched. I have a very young team (one player was 29, all others under 24) and they just couldn't keep up. I also wasn't keeping up and putting them in any kind of position to be successful. It was a wake up call.

Problem #1: We couldn't stop them from scoring. Lots of issues here, but I'm going to focus on wide play. While my defensive wingers were able to keep up in the lower league, at the premier level they just couldn't. The first lesson taught me about the BSP was that EVERYONE has speed. Most of the time the slowest guy on their team was my fastest.

Problem #2: We couldn't score. Again, a lot of this just comes down to my players. Bad passing, no one who can win a head ball in the midfield, numerous shots off target or weak right at the keeper, and a lot of long range shots.

So I had to fix it. That meant watching games. First step was to try and shore up my defense and so I moved my defensive wingers back to the wingback position. Then I needed to move my DM somewhere. 6 in the back was causing as many problems as I was trying to fix and I also still needed to try and score! My 2 forwards in the front weren't helping and I needed more width up top.

The result:

GK

3 DC - 2 outside on Cover, Middle BPD

2 WB

2 CM - 1 DLP, 1 CM attack

AML - Inside Forward

AMR - Winger

ST - DLF

Working great so far and I'm hoping it will carry us back to the BSP. All because of the starting place this thread got me, so thanks!

Edit: Still considering on moving my BPD back to libero when I can find the right player.

[Cleon]

Love the thread. Over my head? Probably.

I'm happy that this thread (along with you others) has finally gotten me to a formation I love. I started by doing almost an exact copy of your first formation with the strikers and no sweeper. As I mentioned before, I play as Weston-super-mare and was promoted to the BSP with that formation. Loved it, worked wonderfully, won the BSS outright with it. Got my *** handed to me in the Premier with it.

NOT YOUR FAULT!

After going through my stages of grief which involve me fast forwarding through games and paying even less attention, fighting right on the edge of regulation and falling short, I decided it was time to really analyze what I was doing. My players were seriously over-matched. I have a very young team (one player was 29, all others under 24) and they just couldn't keep up. I also wasn't keeping up and putting them in any kind of position to be successful. It was a wake up call.

Problem #1: We couldn't stop them from scoring. Lots of issues here, but I'm going to focus on wide play. While my defensive wingers were able to keep up in the lower league, at the premier level they just couldn't. The first lesson taught me about the BSP was that EVERYONE has speed. Most of the time the slowest guy on their team was my fastest.

Problem #2: We couldn't score. Again, a lot of this just comes down to my players. Bad passing, no one who can win a head ball in the midfield, numerous shots off target or weak right at the keeper, and a lot of long range shots.

So I had to fix it. That meant watching games. First step was to try and shore up my defense and so I moved my defensive wingers back to the wingback position. Then I needed to move my DM somewhere. 6 in the back was causing as many problems as I was trying to fix and I also still needed to try and score! My 2 forwards in the front weren't helping and I needed more width up top.

The result:

GK

3 DC - 2 outside on Cover, Middle BPD

2 WB

2 CM - 1 DLP, 1 CM attack

AML - Inside Forward

AMR - Winger

ST - DLF

Working great so far and I'm hoping it will carry us back to the BSP. All because of the starting place this thread got me, so thanks!

Edit: Still considering on moving my BPD back to libero when I can find the right player.

Wingbacks don't really act as wingbacks on FM sadly, they still act as fullbacks. To get an actual player to act like a wingback, you have to use the defensive wingers.

I also play as Sheffield FC on the game and I started low down too in the Evo leagues. I found it a real struggle when I reached the Prem too. I lacked goals but that was also down to my players still being of League One standard. I ended up playing the full season on defensive strategy to cope. It worked well as I finished 4th in my first season but I only scored 55 goals.