Tax, rising...alarming rate

[Candre168]

Editor says 20-25% and from 2013 22-24% - so where you get 30% from? The taxes from Denmark is not right tho, but thats also a complicated matter with foreigners getting reduced taxes when working on a contract here etc - Taxes are a complicated matter to use in a game

Somebody earlier mentioned it was 30% and I was stating it is wrong. You can check on HM Revenue for the real figures. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/corp.htm

[OxfordUnitedFC]

In August of my second season and have spent 14.5 million on tax compared to 26.1 million for the whole of my first season. I need some deep pockets

[Fabregas_04]

What's the workaround if you don't want to pay for FMRTE?

[milnerpoint]

Start a new game using an edited database, those are the only two options at the moment im afraid.

[OxfordUnitedFC]

According to the bugs forum they have a fix for this now. Only concern for me is that it will be included in the next update, hope this is a day or two rather than a week/month away.

[milnerpoint]

Hmm also, according to Stu it only affects the 2nd and 3rd seasons, so im guessing after the 2014 tax comes into play things work themselves out, which would maybe indicate why eple saw such a big change when he/she set them both to zero a few seasons in. Im actually going to put mines back to normal and just play on and see how things turn out.

[OxfordUnitedFC]

yeah bad time timing for me, just about to play the charity shield at the start of the second season. Think i'll just have to hold off playing until the update, dont want to lose anymore money on this than i have to. At least SI have sorted it though.

[eddymunster]

Just to simplify for my own benefit, can someone confirm that I understand correctly....

2012 tax on profit would be 25%

2013 tax on profit would be 25% + 24% (49%)

2014 onward tax on profit would be 25% + 24% + 22% (71%)

So each tax rule is being added rather than replacing the previous one? Is that correct?

Therefore if I make 10mil in 2012 the club would pay 2.5mil in tax, compared to 7.1mil in 2014?

Or have I completely misunderstood?

[OxfordUnitedFC]

Just to simplify for my own benefit, can someone confirm that I understand correctly....

2012 tax on profit would be 25%

2013 tax on profit would be 25% + 24% (49%)

2014 onward tax on profit would be 25% + 24% + 22% (71%)

So each tax rule is being added rather than replacing the previous one? Is that correct?

Therefore if I make 10mil in 2012 the club would pay 2.5mil in tax, compared to 7.1mil in 2014?

Or have I completely misunderstood?

As far as im aware once the 2014 tax kicks in the 2013 tax stops. Feel free to correct me if im wrong anyone.

[Fabregas_04]

Hmm also, according to Stu it only affects the 2nd and 3rd seasons, so im guessing after the 2014 tax comes into play things work themselves out, which would maybe indicate why eple saw such a big change when he/she set them both to zero a few seasons in. Im actually going to put mines back to normal and just play on and see how things turn out.

So things should sort themselves by the start of the 2015-16 season? I'm nearly at the end of my 3rd season so I'm just asking to see if it's worthwhile to keep going on. Has anyone noticed this beyond the 3rd season?

[milnerpoint]

Just to simplify for my own benefit, can someone confirm that I understand correctly....

2012 tax on profit would be 25%

2013 tax on profit would be 25% + 24% (49%)

2014 onward tax on profit would be 25% + 24% + 22% (71%)

So each tax rule is being added rather than replacing the previous one? Is that correct?

Therefore if I make 10mil in 2012 the club would pay 2.5mil in tax, compared to 7.1mil in 2014?

Or have I completely misunderstood?

Almost, i read what stu has said correctly it would be

2012 will be 20% on the first £30,000 and 25% for the rest

2013 will be the same as 2012 plus 24%

2014 will be 22% only

So the second season you get hammered and the third season would always be more than the first because of the change in the rules.

[milnerpoint]

So things should sort themselves by the start of the 2015-16 season? I'm nearly at the end of my 3rd season so I'm just asking to see if it's worthwhile to keep going on. Has anyone noticed this beyond the 3rd season?

Apparently so, im just half way through the third so cant say for certain myself.

[Fabregas_04]

I'll just carry on then and see what happens. Made a copy of the save first just in case.

[eddymunster]

Almost, i read what stu has said correctly it would be

2012 will be 20% on the first £30,000 and 25% for the rest

2013 will be the same as 2012 plus 24%

2014 will be 22% only

So the second season you get hammered and the third season would always be more than the first because of the change in the rules.

I don't follow the bold bit.

[milnerpoint]

Yeah actually ignore that bit, its complete nonsense Sorry!

[eddymunster]

Yeah actually ignore that bit, its complete nonsense Sorry!

So if I just zero the 2013 tax line in the editor will it sort it you reckon?

[milnerpoint]

Well from what Stu has said after the second season its no longer an issue, so i would personally leave it, i've put mines back to the original values as im half way through the third now. If your first season and you use FMRTE you could disable it for a season, or just fight through a difficult season financially.

[eddymunster]

Just pre-season 2013.

[JimiJames]

So to clarify, if youve already played the first 3 seasons by the time the 4th starts everything should be ok?

[OxfordUnitedFC]

In July 2013 with man utd i paid £7.9 million in tax. Can i expect to pay roughly this every month this season or would that be higher because its usually the month where a lot of cash is made from selling season tickets etc?

[milnerpoint]

Just pre-season 2013.

Then you've just come through the hardest season, i would leave it.

So to clarify, if youve already played the first 3 seasons by the time the 4th starts everything should be ok?

Yes, thats what stu has said in the bugs thread.

[milnerpoint]

In July 2013 with man utd i paid £7.9 million in tax. Can i expect to pay roughly this every month this season or would that be higher because its usually the month where a lot of cash is made from selling season tickets etc?

You will pay far more then because of season ticket sales. It should be lower for the rest of the season.

[OxfordUnitedFC]

You will pay far more then because of season ticket sales. It should be lower for the rest of the season.

Ok thanks, will carry on and see how it goes then, i guess if worst comes to worse i can go back to an older save.

[milnerpoint]

Thing is, if you really want too, you could always play a season with no corporation tax to even it out, then put it back on from there on wards, like i say im just going to carry on and see what happens.

[Ricey]

Almost, i read what stu has said correctly it would be

2012 will be 20% on the first £30,000 and 25% for the rest

2013 will be the same as 2012 plus 24%

2014 will be 22% only

So the second season you get hammered and the third season would always be more than the first because of the change in the rules.

Im confused.

Im sure it was said as follows.....

2012 = 2012 tax rates apply

2013 = 2012 tax rates apply plus 2013 tax rates

2014 = 2012 tax rates apply plus 2014 tax rates. (This rate continues each year after)

I thought the problem was that the AI does not drop the 2012 rates as intended.

This affects any club that shows a profit and this continues after 2014, so it isn't fixed in game after 3 seasons as some have said.

Thats the way I read it anyway. I think i'm just gonna wait for the fix.

On another note ....

I can't see how they will make any fix save game compatable. What will that do? Refund your tax overpayment? Will any refund go straight into club accounts and then be taxed? If so, thats taxing it twice.

Also, if you get refunded tax of say for example 40 millon, once that credits the clubs accounts your following seasons budgets will be falsely inflated.

Making it save game compatable is a big task if you ask me, its gonna cause a lot of problems. I wont be setting up any long term saves till this is fixed, just incase.

[OxfordUnitedFC]

Thing is, if you really want too, you could always play a season with no corporation tax to even it out, then put it back on from there on wards, like i say im just going to carry on and see what happens.

True, i guess the ai teams will have the same stipulations so at least they may suffer the same problems.

In terms of the fix being save game compatible, i would hope that it will be but it would be a case of putting the rates right from now on, im sure there would be no way to get back tax already paid over previous seasons.

[Timtom84]

So to clarify, if youve already played the first 3 seasons by the time the 4th starts everything should be ok?

afraid not in season 2018/19 and the tax for last season was 138M

[zeke]

My monthly losses have now hit double digits on season 4.. despite running way beyond wage budget! As you can see board likes me for that. Few screens and the losses mount eventhough sold many top earners from the club...

[Ginola79]

afraid not in season 2018/19 and the tax for last season was 138M

England is gonna be a rich country

[lil ole me]

So basically i have 2 fork out 5 bucks for FMRTE to fix this problem for a simple fix that SI could do.....yeah well done.....FIFA here i come. I have had enough of this crap year after year after year, there is ALWAYS something that the so called TESTERS didn`t pick up.......AGAIN.

Why not just hold back on ONE YEAR OF FM and make it a suppa duppa game and fix all of the bugs that come with it.

FM 12 wasn`t a finished product as it was flawed with a few bugs when the last update came out.

Then came FM 13 $$$$$

[JimiJames]

So basically i have 2 fork out 5 bucks for FMRTE to fix this problem for a simple fix that SI could do.....yeah well done.....FIFA here i come. I have had enough of this crap year after year after year, there is ALWAYS something that the so called TESTERS didn`t pick up.......AGAIN.

Why not just hold back on ONE YEAR OF FM and make it a suppa duppa game and fix all of the bugs that come with it.

FM 12 wasn`t a finished product as it was flawed with a few bugs when the last update came out.

Then came FM 13 $$$$$

So so so so so so so very true!!!

[Ricey]

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/327458-club-tax-is-insane!!!-my-juventus-loses-2-3-millions-pounds-each-month/page2

Apparently they have a fix but aint releasing it till they release the next update.

I don't know why they cant just put the fix out there imediately....... Will that cost them anything?

And if you scroll down to Timtom84's post on that link, you'll see this ........

QUOTE ...... Do I have a separate issue then I have just finished season 7 and my tax for that season was 130M? I have holidayed 2018 and its still going up (138M).

I screenshot my finances at the end of every season and this is my tax/profit for each season.

2013 profit - 44.8M, tax - 21M

2014 profit - 26M, tax - 67M

2015 profit - 23M, tax - 79M

2016 profit - 19M, tax - 104M

2017 profit - 8M, tax - 130M

2018 loss - -13M, tax - 138M

Currently holidaying 2019 and stopped in Aug to check tax, it was 16M for last month....

UNQUOTE,

That does not look like tax is fixed after second season to me...... It's mental.

[Fabregas_04]

Sounds like it could be a bigger issue than they're letting on. Maybe trying to buy themselves time, because for such a big issue not using Steam to get the fix out immediately is questionable to say the least.

[Lurker]

I am just wondering if it's safe to play the first season without the tax crap? Because I was thinking of starting a new game with Liverpool. Then to the end of the season, I stop and wait till a fix comes out?

[JimiJames]

I am just wondering if it's safe to play the first season without the tax crap? Because I was thinking of starting a new game with Liverpool. Then to the end of the season, I stop and wait till a fix comes out?

I would defo not risk it mate. I am 2 an a half seasons in and im pretty sure im just going to have to start again when the new update comes out, fingers crossed they will make it save game compatible, but im 95% sure it wont be.

James.

[NotMyCat]

Are there any teams besides Liverpool who are known to get hit really hard by this bug and should be avoided until it's fixed? I've just started a Middlesbrough save so I think I'll be okay, but plenty of others are likely fretting about this.

[andrew bowditch]

Id just avoid the game in general until they can be bothered to release a fix that they have got already!

[Ricey]

Id just avoid the game in general until they can be bothered to release a fix that they have got already!

You could give FMC a bash. Buy a few of those cheat thingys, might be fun ............. Or maybe thats the master plan? Mess up FM so peeps play FMC and spend some cash???

It's a conspiracy I tell ya!!!!

[Nico877]

Jesus christ, just remove taxes from the game already. There's nothing you can do to make the tax system work 100% for every country, like reduced taxes for foreigners in Denmark, Norway (in Norway you only pay 10% tax for the first year), etc., and the 75% tax in France which will obviously dissapear sometime in the next few years. They're just doing it in an attempt to put a lid on things until proper rules come into play, and don't forget that most of the French teams start with a balance of £1 due to questionable researching.

Losing £5m a month with any PL club (don't forget that clubs like Arsenal and Man Utd make anywhere from £3m to £5m from every home game in real life) should have alerted the SI staff, but no. In February 2013 my balance was -£6m with Chelsea after one £15m signing!

Finances were already a mess before all this tax shenanigans. It was a mess on FM12 but people accepted it as one feature that could never be properly reflected in a simulator game. Then you add another potential disaster, and for what exactly? Next to no one actually cares about how much players and clubs pay in taxes. Continuously adding more smaller features that are actually potentially game-breaking has to stop somewhere or this will become an endless spiral where people can't actually enjoy the game to the fullest for months. You don't have to add more features (unless Sega demands it, that is) to make people buy FM. We all love it. Just build on previous versions like most software developers do. I mean, taxes is a neat feature on paper, but it's unnecessary. It's obsolete in the grand scheme of things and just another smaller feature that can potentially ruin the game to some degree.

Fix the debt system instead (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/320972-Debt-needs-to-be-restructured).

For that matter, what about the match engine? Why make a new one almost from scratch when the FM12 March ME was near perfect?

My head is actually dieing.

Note that I'm writing this in extreme frustration over the fact that I can't actually play FM13 in an enjoyable way. I still love SI and FM and especially Neil Brock. I just want to play as the mighty Arsenal (who in theory won't really notice any of the tax bugs due to financial security), but what's the point when 90% of the teams around me literally crash? I love FM13 but this tax issue is a game-breaker for me.

[ljwjones]

So can I just ask then. If I play through season 1-4 my tax will look like:

year 1: normal

year 2: normal + 22%

year 3 normal + 22%

year 4: Normal

Or am I just confused?

Plus I think this could be save game compatible, I mean the scouting cost problem was fixed with being compatible for save games.

[zeke]

So can I just ask then. If I play through season 1-4 my tax will look like:

year 1: normal

year 2: normal + 22%

year 3 normal + 22%

year 4: Normal

Or am I just confused?

Plus I think this could be save game compatible, I mean the scouting cost problem was fixed with being compatible for save games.

Definately not normal after first 3 seasons. Check the bugs forums and still an issue.

I'am not going to play until this mess gets sorted out.

[zeke]

Jesus christ, just remove taxes from the game already. There's nothing you can do to make the tax system work 100% for every country, like reduced taxes for foreigners in Denmark, Norway (in Norway you only pay 10% tax for the first year), etc., and the 75% tax in France which will obviously dissapear sometime in the next few years. They're just doing it in an attempt to put a lid on things until proper rules come into play, and don't forget that most of the French teams start with a balance of £1 due to questionable researching.

Losing £5m a month with any PL club (don't forget that clubs like Arsenal and Man Utd make anywhere from £3m to £5m from every home game in real life) should have alerted the SI staff, but no. In February 2013 my balance was -£6m with Chelsea after one £15m signing!

Finances were already a mess before all this tax shenanigans. It was a mess on FM12 but people accepted it as one feature that could never be properly reflected in a simulator game. Then you add another potential disaster, and for what exactly? Next to no one actually cares about how much players and clubs pay in taxes. Continuously adding more smaller features that are actually potentially game-breaking has to stop somewhere or this will become an endless spiral where people can't actually enjoy the game to the fullest for months. You don't have to add more features (unless Sega demands it, that is) to make people buy FM. We all love it. Just build on previous versions like most software developers do. I mean, taxes is a neat feature on paper, but it's unnecessary. It's obsolete in the grand scheme of things and just another smaller feature that can potentially ruin the game to some degree.

Fix the debt system instead (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/320972-Debt-needs-to-be-restructured).

For that matter, what about the match engine? Why make a new one almost from scratch when the FM12 March ME was near perfect?

My head is actually dieing.

Note that I'm writing this in extreme frustration over the fact that I can't actually play FM13 in an enjoyable way. I still love SI and FM and especially Neil Brock. I just want to play as the mighty Arsenal (who in theory won't really notice any of the tax bugs due to financial security), but what's the point when 90% of the teams around me literally crash? I love FM13 but this tax issue is a game-breaker for me.

I have to agree with you!

There are far more important things to get tweaked and done before even thinking about adding these new systems into game. The main ones.. how AI handles youths and scouting and other areas as well.

This mess with taxes has put my game on hold until this gets sorted.. and it should be sorted soon!!!

These kind of things just makes me pissed off and frustrated since really want actually play the damn game!

Oh.. even that ME is quite poor state at the moment.. well actually can somewhat understand that to be the case and can work around it.. but this finance thing! Unacceptable Q&A stuff... you should revamp your testing systems since this kind of rubbish should never made into "final" release!

[CRTB]

So can I just ask then. If I play through season 1-4 my tax will look like:

year 1: normal

year 2: normal + 22%

year 3 normal + 22%

year 4: Normal

Or am I just confused?

It's definitely not like that.

Best guess at the moment is something like

Year 1: Normal

Year 2: Normal + 24%

Year 3: Normal + 24% + 22%

Year 4: Normal + 24% + 22%

Year 5: Normal + 24% + 22%

etc.

However it also seems that the rates are just too high generally. I think SI have just arbitrarily upped tax rates and costs (See the post in the bugs forum from someone at SI saying something like "Non-football costs being increased is an announced feature") across the board in order to make the financial model work better.

I can understand that to an extent as they need to have the finances working, but this isn't working by any definition of the word that I'm familiar with.

[ljwjones]

It's definitely not like that.

Best guess at the moment is something like

Year 1: Normal

Year 2: Normal + 24%

Year 3: Normal + 24% + 22%

Year 4: Normal + 24% + 22%

Year 5: Normal + 24% + 22%

etc.

However it also seems that the rates are just too high generally. I think SI have just arbitrarily upped tax rates and costs (See the post in the bugs forum from someone at SI saying something like "Non-football costs being increased is an announced feature") across the board in order to make the financial model work better.

So looking at it if i change corporation tax to 22% then that would be the correct level?

Plus the rise in non-footballing costs was to reflect what clubs pay in real life, it was low in previous years so the increase is to match real life

[Serial Killer]

Jesus christ, just remove taxes from the game already. There's nothing you can do to make the tax system work 100% for every country, like reduced taxes for foreigners in Denmark, Norway (in Norway you only pay 10% tax for the first year), etc., and the 75% tax in France which will obviously dissapear sometime in the next few years. They're just doing it in an attempt to put a lid on things until proper rules come into play, and don't forget that most of the French teams start with a balance of £1 due to questionable researching.

Losing £5m a month with any PL club (don't forget that clubs like Arsenal and Man Utd make anywhere from £3m to £5m from every home game in real life) should have alerted the SI staff, but no. In February 2013 my balance was -£6m with Chelsea after one £15m signing!

Finances were already a mess before all this tax shenanigans. It was a mess on FM12 but people accepted it as one feature that could never be properly reflected in a simulator game. Then you add another potential disaster, and for what exactly? Next to no one actually cares about how much players and clubs pay in taxes. Continuously adding more smaller features that are actually potentially game-breaking has to stop somewhere or this will become an endless spiral where people can't actually enjoy the game to the fullest for months. You don't have to add more features (unless Sega demands it, that is) to make people buy FM. We all love it. Just build on previous versions like most software developers do. I mean, taxes is a neat feature on paper, but it's unnecessary. It's obsolete in the grand scheme of things and just another smaller feature that can potentially ruin the game to some degree.

Fix the debt system instead (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/320972-Debt-needs-to-be-restructured).

For that matter, what about the match engine? Why make a new one almost from scratch when the FM12 March ME was near perfect?

My head is actually dieing.

Note that I'm writing this in extreme frustration over the fact that I can't actually play FM13 in an enjoyable way. I still love SI and FM and especially Neil Brock. I just want to play as the mighty Arsenal (who in theory won't really notice any of the tax bugs due to financial security), but what's the point when 90% of the teams around me literally crash? I love FM13 but this tax issue is a game-breaker for me.

Yesterday a few brown noses attempted to shout me down, saying that tax was needed. Well, they've got egg on their brown noses now. The new tax system is totally unnecessary, as well as being totally broken. This alone means I cannot play a game that I purchased 2 weeks ago. And don't get me started on the match engine...

[Kweck]

Finaly done with August 2013 in my save.

Quite a difference noticed in taxes payment after the edit:

Before edit:

June 2013 - 5 mill

July 2013 - 7.5 mill

After edit:

August 2013 - 4 mill