Defending against 4-2-3-1 Formations (away)

[matty2323]

So ive come up against the 4-2-3-1, both deep and normal CM positions, and have really struggled to deal with it. The Image attached is the version Man City play, with several other EPL teams playing various versions.

Now, at home, ive won 8 out of 9 games when facing this formation, scoring 12 goals and conceding 2. Away from home, using the same tactic, ive lost 5 out of 7 (all my loses over the whole season have come against this tactic away from home), conceded 9 and scoring 4 (only conceded 14 goals for whole season, 11 of which came against this tactic). If my tactic is working so well at home, yet so poorly away, what would i need to change? Is home advantage that big? Any help would be muchly appreciated.

[goodyboy]

Generally a more direct counter-attacking strategy with wing play, low time wasting, narrow width but also deep defensive line is the best way to cope with this type of system.

- The direct counter-attacking helps to get the ball away from the centre and away from danger as quickly as possible.

- The narrow width will help close up the gaps in the centre to reduce their chances of playing through you in the centre, particularly on transitions.

- The deep defensive line will help to create space on the pitch in terms of length when you get the chance to counter.

- The low time wasting will help to get the ball to the flanks as quickly as possible. Think of time wasting as patience. 'Patience' is generally how much build-up happens before players try and take advantage of a gap or space on the pitch. Once that gap or space is found is when tempo kicks in (look at lam's thread on time wasting for more on this). You will already have the space out wide due to your wide play tactics so you can afford to set this to rarely.

The narrow 4-2-3-1 is numerically weak down the flanks so look to take advantage of that. Focus passing down both flanks and make sure you have one outlet on both wings that are both instructed to hug the touchlines. The hug touchline tactic will help to create more space for the wide attackers.

You may also wish to designate your best wide attacker as the playmaker. Or you can wait to see which one's causing the most danger during the game and set him as the playmaker to encourage the team to get the ball to him more often. Or you can leave the playmaker setting if both wide attackers are performing equally well (or badly!).

So these tactics should help reduce the space for the opposition to play and stifle them but also give you dangerous attacking options. Good dribbling, off the ball, work rate, acceleration, pace and stamina will help the wide outlets counter and get back as will attributes like composure, creativity and passing for more central players. Tactical familiarity is also important.

However that's just a general guideline. We really need to know more about your own tactics to give a better answer.

What formation do you use?

What strategy do you use?

What other tactics do you use?

[matty2323]

Thanks for the response. My tactic:

I normally play with that one tactic, varying between control and standard and increasing the tempo. Use shouts (Play out of defense, play through defense and look for over lap (towards end of game may also use keep possession)). If i do make changes, i pull the AMC back into a MC position to secure the middle of the park if im being over run. Naturally play with width, i just cant seem to get possession of the ball away from home, where at home i dictate normally 60-70% of possession against the 4-2-3-1. Just wouldn't think playing away would change the effects of the possession so much when both teams haven't changed formations..

[Kamil-S]

They leave huge hole between MCs and DCs so you could exploit it (they are vulnerable to quick counters) and don't leave their FBs unmarked as they support attacks and provide width.

[goodyboy]

One thing to bear in mind matty is that the opposition tend to try and attack you more when they're at home, particularly if they're fairly equal to you and feel they have a chance of getting a result. Are you conceding the goals/struggling more against the better and quality teams or more against the lesser teams (that play narrow 4-2-3-1?) when away from home? Or is there no real difference?

About your own formation against narrow 4-2-3-1 some possible ideas to think about:

- Giving your full backs a defend duty. This helps to prevent space for the wider AMCs you face in case they try and drift wide and get in behind from the flanks.

- You may actually wish to keep your AMC in that position. Get him to drop into the hole but also support the striker well in order to occupy both the other MC and help the FC occupy both DCs. This might help to create confusion between the other MC and one of the DCs as to who is responsible for him. This also helps prevent both opposition full backs pushing up at the same time and putting you under immense pressure, otherwise against a lone striker, the full backs are free to push up yet keep a spare man at the back. Also try and get your AMC to move into channels and get to the flanks and work with the wide midfielder and inside forward in order to create overloads on the flanks. Pushing the AMC to an FC position and designating a deep lying forward role with attack duty may also have the desired result.

- You may want to think about giving the DM a defensive midfielder role with support duty instead rather than simply a creative role. A pure DM role with support duty would serve as a compromise to help nullify the most central of the three AMCs but also help keep the creative side of his game, particularly if his composure, creativity and passing are quality. I would advise making his passing more direct though as time and space will be at a premium in the centre. This is if you want to keep creativity in this part of the pitch, otherwise I'd give him a defensive role.

[matty2323]

One thing to bear in mind matty is that the opposition tend to try and attack you more when they're at home, particularly if they're fairly equal to you and feel they have a chance of getting a result. Are you conceding the goals/struggling more against the better and quality teams or more against the lesser teams (that play narrow 4-2-3-1?) when away from home? Or is there no real difference?

About your own formation against narrow 4-2-3-1 some possible ideas to think about:

- Giving your full backs a defend duty. This helps to prevent space for the wider AMCs you face in case they try and drift wide and get in behind from the flanks.

- You may actually wish to keep your AMC in that position. Get him to drop into the hole but also support the striker well in order to occupy both the other MC and help the FC occupy both DCs. This might help to create confusion between the other MC and one of the DCs as to who is responsible for him. This also helps prevent both opposition full backs pushing up at the same time and putting you under immense pressure, otherwise against a lone striker, the full backs are free to push up yet keep a spare man at the back. Also try and get your AMC to move into channels and get to the flanks and work with the wide midfielder and inside forward in order to create overloads on the flanks. Pushing the AMC to an FC position and designating a deep lying forward role with attack duty may also have the desired result.

- You may want to think about giving the DM a defensive midfielder role with support duty instead rather than simply a creative role. A pure DM role with support duty would serve as a compromise to help nullify the most central of the three AMCs but also help keep the creative side of his game, particularly if his composure, creativity and passing are quality. I would advise making his passing more direct though as time and space will be at a premium in the centre. This is if you want to keep creativity in this part of the pitch, otherwise I'd give him a defensive role.

cheers. like i said, i conceded 14 goals for the entire season, 11 of which came against this formation. no more then 2 in a game though, which meant every time i played against the formation away from home i conceded. At home i average 2.8 goals against the formation, against both high and low rep teams. away was completely different. I understand that they attack more etc away from home, but it seems as if i lose the ability to keep possession when i have it, when at home i comfortably string passes together all game long. Ill take your notes and see if i cant implement them.

[goodyboy]

Is it possible for you to post all the results from your away games in which the opposition played narrow 4-2-3-1 against you? Please.

Thanks

[matty2323]

against 4-2-3-1 formations. includes narrow, wide and deep 4-2-3-1. As you'll see, possessions not huge, but at home its always in my favor, shot count in as is pass completion. Away is completely different.

Home:

Man City

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab209/matty2323/FM13/ManUtdvManCity_StatsMatchStats.png

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab209/matty2323/FM13/ManUtdvManCity_StatsMatchStats-2.png

Liverpool

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab209/matty2323/FM13/ManUtdvLiverpool_StatsMatchStats.png

Arsenal

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab209/matty2323/FM13/ManUtdvArsenal_StatsMatchStats.png

Chelsea

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab209/matty2323/FM13/ManUtdvChelsea_StatsMatchStats.png

PSG

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab209/matty2323/FM13/ManUtdvParisSaint-Germain_StatsMatchStats.png

Away:

Sheff Wed - FA cup 4th round

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab209/matty2323/FM13/SheffWedvManUtd_StatsMatchStats.png

Man City - League and CL

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab209/matty2323/FM13/ManCityvManUtd_StatsMatchStats.png

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab209/matty2323/FM13/ManCityvManUtd_OverviewOverview.png

Liverpool

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab209/matty2323/FM13/LiverpoolvManUtd_StatsMatchStats.png

Arsenal

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab209/matty2323/FM13/ArsenalvManUtd_StatsMatchStats.png

Chelsea

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab209/matty2323/FM13/ChelseavManUtd_StatsMatchStats.png

PSG

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab209/matty2323/FM13/ParisSaint-GermainvManUtd_StatsMatchStats.png

[goodyboy]

It's noticeable that in the away defeats you've posted that the opposition are quality opposition (with the notable exception being Sheffield Wednesday). I think that seems to point towards using a more direct counter-attacking, wing play, low time wasting, deep defensive line and narrow width tactic like I suggested earlier on. Well that's what it looks like with the evidence given.

If you play with your natural width in these cases, it's probably no surprise you got over-run.

With the Sheffield Wednesday game, maybe they just physically did you over in the centre with all the numbers in the centre of the park and with teams from the English football league being pretty physical generally, maybe you had less time and space because of that.

Still, good luck. Let me know how you get on

P.S. by the way, the more acceleration and pace that your advanced forward has, the more that this can frighten opposition managers to draw the defensive line deeper and for defenders to drop deeper so as not to get caught in behind. This in turn can also help relieve some pressure for your team in the game and help get your team up the pitch more in general.

[matty2323]

Start of season two, and a tweak to my formation to replicate the 4-2-3-1 wide formation most big teams are playing has started well. Away from home i look to play deeper, holding, retaining possession and doubling up on the wings. At home i look to control the game, own possession, create large amounts of possession through the middle, narrowing the opposition and exploiting the wings with overload. 3 games in, had to play Chelsea away and Liverpool at home.

Chelsea away - stats can be alittle bit misleading, i dominated the game, had 50/50 possession up until the last 15 minutes, and once i scored looked to shut the game down. they started dominating possession but around the 30-40 yard mark and i broke on them numerous times and should have won by 2 or 3 goals.

Liverpool home - complete domination. possession, pass completion, movement and finishing. I actually should have scored so many more. had 3 goals chalked off for offside. Should have kept a clean sheet, but a mistake led to a SG free kick hitting the back of the net from 30 yards. Same as chelsea, possession was around 65% for majority, but evened out towards the end as i looked to retain possession, save legs and close out the game without any risk.

[goodyboy]

Looks like things have improved then.

I notice for the two games that you've changed formation to 4-2-3-1 (or 4-3-3) from the assymetrical formation from earlier on.

[matty2323]

Looks like things have improved then.

I notice for the two games that you've changed formation to 4-2-3-1 (or 4-3-3) from the assymetrical formation from earlier on.

yeah, i watched the games against big rep sides on full and was just getting bossed in the middle of the park. The change in formation has both CM's (1 DPL/ 1 BWM) set to defend to cover attacking playings while my AMC occupies the defensive minder opposition midfielders. When ever teams trying to over load my i was able to intercept and break due to flooding the middle of the park. Worked quite well to be fair.