The FM 41221 (433 - 451 - WoW)

[MrMourinho]

Great read! I am personally a fan of 4-3-3 and of its High Priest here in Italy, the one and only Zdenek Zeman and managed to have a few variations working pretty well (as usual, note that I'm still on FM11). I also enjoy the countering capabilities of the 4-5-1 when I'm up against a much stronger opponent.

There are a few key points I would like to talk about given my experience with this formation:

1. The playmakers

My personal preference is for an inclined triangle with two playmakers operating at different height - that is to say, a deep lying playmaker (DPM from now on) and an advanced playmaker (APM), both on support, backed by an anchorman (AM). I used to go for a pair of APMs as suggested in the OP, then settled for the DPM/APM pairing after trying it out for the sake of exploiting Karagounis' defensive capabilities while managing Panathinaikos, and never looked back. While this sounds less aggressive than a double-APMs system, the presence of a DPMs allows for the occasional long balls from deep that APMs would tend not to try - and that more often than not prove absolutely devastating with coupled with speedy inside forwards. Also, having the playmakers at different heights will make them either less prone to be closed down by two opponents, or leave one unmarked (unless facing a diamond).

If more steel is needed, I replace the APM with a ball winner on support (which in times of need is heavily tweaked to look like he's on defend - no forward runs, long shots... yet left with his support-level mentality and closing down)

2. The defending midfielder

Here it's tricky - I used to want another playmaker here (albeit a skilled defender, think Veloso, Gago or M'Vila), but then figured out that an anchorman fits better behind the DPM/APM duo - the long balls are provided by the DPM at MC. If I was to go back to a double-APM system at MC, then I'd return to play a triple-playmaker triangle.

3. The fullbacks

I mentioned Zeman. I adore attacking fullbacks I prefer to keep 'em both on the same role as I don't use wingers upfront (only inside forwards or advanced playmakers) so I need both to provide width (or both to support - I refuse to play a solid back 4 unless staring at a possible massacre - read on). Hug touchline is a must: width, width, width.

4. Possession football and counter-attacking football

The best thing about this shape is that it allows perfect triangles and a truckload of offensive players for possession-based football, but can be converted into a fortress with a couple of changes - I learnt this best at Panathinaikos where I could walk the league without any problem, but had to face much stronger opponents in the CL. Change the Inside Forwards to Wingers on support (if you're *really* scared, push em back to MR/ML) and the Fullbacks to defend, use a fast poacher upfront (I had Cissé) set as target man running onto ball, sit back and enjoy - the harder they come, the harder they fall. With a designated ball winner (the DM) surrounded by 5 players (or even 6 if you go for a double-DPMs; 7 or 8 if you have the luxury of ball-playing defenders...) capable of feeding the lonely striker with balls overhead or crossed from deep, the counterattacking capability is unmatched by any formation I'm aware of.

5. The triple pivot

I have a slightly different take on this setup as well - I was trying it out at Genoa with excellent results but the rest of the team was not setup the way I would set it up now. My bet is that it'd be extremely interesting to have this kind of formation:

DR: FBa hugging touchline

DCr: DCd

DCl: DCd

DL: FBd

DM: DPMs

MCr: BWs (modified as mentioned above)

MCl: CMa

AMR: IFa

AML: Wa

ST: whatever as long as he stays central

when attacking, it should look something like:

AML --- MCl --- ST --- AMR --- DR

------------ DM --- MCr ------------

DL --------- DC --- DC

Now, my problem's to get the DL to act as a third central defender and for the back 3 so formed to work properly - something I can't manage properly. This is of course designed to counter a team playing two strikers - if you're up against a front 3 (or a lonely striker), then the AMR would play as a winger and the fullbacks would be on defend or support depending on the situation - a much easier setup to get to work.

The shifting midfield triangle, however, does work as intended.

Hope this can be food for thought for somebody =)

Pakito, I found your thoughts interesting. Especially how to set-up your midfield and the way you counter-attack when playing against tough opposition. I'm curious, what is your default strategy and philosophy? Is it control and balanced? Also, when you set-up your team against a very strong team, what strategy and philosophy do you use then? Counter and Balanced?

It would be interesting to hear your thoughts?

Cheers, Anders

[furiousuk]

furiousuk,

I'm wondering what is your take on assigning a designated playmaker? From my experiences, every time I've set Xavi as my playmaker, the opposition sets very tight man-marking on him and my other CM ends up seeing a lot more of the ball, resulting in more passes. Thus, Xavi is taken out of the game and unable to fulfill the role I want him to play.

I've noticed this happens even when I haven't set him as my playmaker, but just given him a DLP-support role. Would it be wise to have Xavi swap places with Iniesta and/or give him "roaming" instructions?

Thanks

I tend to set the playmaker to 'none'. I like to have fairly smart players so would like them to decide who is the best chap to pass to in any situation rather than trying to force them to pass to a guy who, at that moment, isn't the best option. As you point out, the opposition tend to mark them out of the game and when your team is fairly well matched with your opponent they'll do this successfully - of course, you could use is a diversion to open space elsewhere but you'd effectively lose a player as well so I think it's a once a season sort of ploy (if that).

I have, at times, lined up with 4 Advanced Playmakers in the team (DM may have also been a DLP), with that much creative talent I want them all moving and creating for each other rather than a central point.

If you used a formation with an AM (4231, 4312) and no-one was man-marking that guy then maybe it would work out better but I've never been a fan of stipulating too heavily. Similarly I set the target-man instruction to none when I use one - if you want to play very direct and long then it works but I found that players were forcing passes up to the TM who struggled to get a head on it and I'd end up turning the ball over cheaply.

How would you set up the midfield with the following Arsenal players Mikel Arteta, Ramsey, Song. I am thinking about buying Yan M'Villa the give me some bite in central midfield. I have read that if you put the two central midfielders on the same role and duty then they will be easily marked out the game. How would deal with the issue of ensuring that when both midfielders are given the same role and duty (advance playmaker support) they will not get marked out the game. Mikel Arteta has PPM comes deep to get the ball do you think this will allow him to drop deeper and play on a different line to Ramsey or would you suggest that I drop Arteta mentality.

Not sure where that comes from. I've used Adv.PM-supp for both my midfielders in this formation for the majority of my save with a number of different midfielders and never had a problem. The biggest thing is that if they are man-marking your MC's then let your DM be more creative, the markers will soon have to shift to also mark the DM whereby an MC will be free to get in behind their midfield and be a real threat - this is the biggest strength of a triangular midfield vs a flat midfield. Who to mark and who to let free.

With Arteta's PPM they'll have different roles anyway. I think that PPM just sets the forward runs (runs from deep) to rare - I don't think it actually makes him plunge deeper (I'm happy to be corrected here), instead it makes him hold while the rest of the team edge forward, thus he'll appear deeper based on your average team height. All this means that he'll play different to Wilshere or Ramsey. Infact, with that PPM I'd be tempted to have Song's forward runs set to often so that the midfield shifts. The same philosophy I outlined for the triple pivot above.

If you bought M'Vila I'd be tempted to shift more towards a 2-1 midfield with M'Vila & Song for when you need to smash the middle and Arteta + 1 when you need a bit more creativity. Should be a top class midfield however you choose to use them. You'll have variety and quality, it would just be up to you to pick the right guys for the right situation.

To really throw a spanner in the works I always used Song as a DC when I bought him for Southampton

I also both Poldolski and Damiao to play as strikers and was considering using the Drogba Chelsea Set Up because none of these two strikers have the creative abilities of Van Persie to play the Van Persie/Messi Method. Could you give me some advice n how to set up the midfield if I was to use Poldolski or Damiao as my Advance Forward/Complete Forward Attack.

My starting strategy is usually Balance with Standard/Control.

Passing - Shorter

Creative- More Expressive

Press More

Zonal Marking

Drill Crosses

More Roaming

I have decided to use Gervinho as a inside forward attack and Walcott as winger attack.

Would you make any changes to my team set up or roles and duties for my wingers

I'd be careful with short passing. By having your front three push high (they'll all have free roles but will also have high mentalities) there will be a little separation, this is good because it attempts to elongate the pitch and make it hard work for the defence but if you restrict your guys to short passing they may never attempt the ball over the top (this will be a key weapon for you so don't be afraid to 'drop deeper' if you're playing with an aggressive front three).

I use a fairly bog standard 1-2 midfield with this setup. So - DM(def), AdvPM(Supp), AdvPM(Supp) with IF(att), IF(att), CF(att). I then use lots of roaming and creative freedom and leave the others on default and change on a game-by-game basis. If anything, I'll drop deep and use Get Ball Forward more often (although I'm very high rep now so face negativity more, when I was moderately high rep, as Arsenal are, I used this alot).

It's not a traditional Wenger/Arsenal style of play but it's mighty effective. I'm not sure exactly of the attributes of your players but it sounds like they'll be roughly comparable to mine, particularly with another bruiser (M'Vila) in the side.

Sounds like you have the bones of a really top side, capable of an effective 41221 or an effective 4231.

[MrMourinho]

Furiousuk, if you were in my situation, managing Chelsea, how would you set up my Chelsea team in a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1?

I have just started a new game and only bought Fellaini to strengthen my midfield. Otherwise I have a plethora of attacking midfielders: Hazard, Oscar, Mata, Marin, Sturridge, Malouda.

In earlier games I have had success using either a 4-1-2-2-1 Control or a 4-2-3-1 Counter. If you look at my playing staff they seem suited to a kind of 4-2-3-1 with the many attacking midfielders, but I am always worried that my central midfielders will leave a gap in front of my defence since I don't employ a defensive midfielder sitting in front.

I am interesting to hear how you(or someone else), would set up the Chelsea team of today. What formation? Strategy and philosophy? I am also very interested in what roles and duties you would give the three central midfielders? Lampard, Essien, Mikel, Fellaini, Ramires to choose from regarding more defensive minded players, plus all the attacking midfielders mentioned above.

I am only interested in playing a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-1-2-2-1 formation.

Looking forward to reading your thoughts on this.

All skillful tactians out there, give me your thoughts, please!

Thanks,

Anders, Sweden

[fmjeros]

Excellent thread and amazing work furiousuk, congratulations

I will come back with some observations about the most successful tactic in FM but first i would like to share an article from another site

http://www.theirtactics.com/midfield-trios-subtle-differences-between-top-midfield-combinations/

[mikcheck]

furiousuk amazing thread. Just one quick question? You let both Adv.Playmakers roam or just let them default with high CF? Thanks

[7Bestie7]

I'd be careful with short passing. By having your front three push high (they'll all have free roles but will also have high mentalities) there will be a little separation, this is good because it attempts to elongate the pitch and make it hard work for the defence but if you restrict your guys to short passing they may never attempt the ball over the top (this will be a key weapon for you so don't be afraid to 'drop deeper' if you're playing with an aggressive front three).

I use a fairly bog standard 1-2 midfield with this setup. So - DM(def), AdvPM(Supp), AdvPM(Supp) with IF(att), IF(att), CF(att). I then use lots of roaming and creative freedom and leave the others on default and change on a game-by-game basis. If anything, I'll drop deep and use Get Ball Forward more often (although I'm very high rep now so face negativity more, when I was moderately high rep, as Arsenal are, I used this alot).

Now this is all interesting. My default 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 (the one I always go to eventually in any game I play) has the triple pivot staggered as the DM, CM and AM all zigzagging behind the central striker. In big games I can then rotate them into being DM-CM-DM, DM-CM-CM or DM-AM-DM. The part that really stands out from the quote is your choice of using the two CPM (APMs in the CM position) both on support and the IF-CF-IF all on attack and then the mentioning of a "breakage" in the team with short passing.

I've yet to experience this breakage with an alternative set up. I use a WB (a) - CB - CB - FB (s) defensive structure which then allows me to have the front line as IF (a)-CF (a) - IF (s). My "floating" AM is then able to be on Attack duty where he is in the CM or AM slot. This tends to tilt the attack into an asymmetric attack but keeps everyone able to pass to everyone else AND allow for the long raking balls if they're open.

So I guess my question is, what's your reasoning behind having the midfield both Support and front three all Attack?

[James9]

Should I use the drop deeper and get ball forward shout at the start of the game.

[furiousuk]

Furiousuk, if you were in my situation, managing Chelsea, how would you set up my Chelsea team in a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1?

I have just started a new game and only bought Fellaini to strengthen my midfield. Otherwise I have a plethora of attacking midfielders: Hazard, Oscar, Mata, Marin, Sturridge, Malouda.

In earlier games I have had success using either a 4-1-2-2-1 Control or a 4-2-3-1 Counter. If you look at my playing staff they seem suited to a kind of 4-2-3-1 with the many attacking midfielders, but I am always worried that my central midfielders will leave a gap in front of my defence since I don't employ a defensive midfielder sitting in front.

I am interesting to hear how you(or someone else), would set up the Chelsea team of today. What formation? Strategy and philosophy? I am also very interested in what roles and duties you would give the three central midfielders? Lampard, Essien, Mikel, Fellaini, Ramires to choose from regarding more defensive minded players, plus all the attacking midfielders mentioned above.

I am only interested in playing a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-1-2-2-1 formation.

Looking forward to reading your thoughts on this.

All skillful tactians out there, give me your thoughts, please!

Sounds like you might actually have too many players! But that's beside the point really!

I'm not exactly sure of the attributes of the players but I'll have a stab at it!

I don't know much about Marin but I know Sturridge is a striker whereas the others are creators (I'm discounting Malouda, is he still any good? Taking into account the company I wouldn't of thought he'd get a look in). If you're going 4231 the 2 midfielders really have to hold, that means they should be very careful in going forward, particularly as you've mentioned the gap in-front of the DC's. Employing 2 DM's solves this problem and if you set them up as DLP-def and DLP-supp then one will move more advanced of the other - this also allows a Treq or Adv.PM-s role for the AMC and give him plenty of space.

However, this discards Ramires & Lampard from your holding midfield equation. Although Essien, Mikel and Fellaini should happily fill these spots all season it means that you now have 8 AM's all fighting for 3 spots (7 if you discard Malouda). This might not be too bad if you're thinking of easing Lamps & Malouda into retirement, particularly as Hazard and Oscar are young and could be introduced more slowly to regular 1st team action.

With a 41221 you actually have more options in terms of personnel. Mikel, Fellaini & Essien all cover DM whilst all of your mentioned midfielders would work well in at MC and give you plenty of options - use Lamps & Ramires when you want creativity and a different combo if you needed more fight. This does leave your 6 AM's all fighting for just 2 spots, but, if you discard or sell Malouda it's only 5 which is a bit more manageable, do any of them cover ST? If they do then you can rotate more and give yourself even more options for a Messi-like FC.

The issue might be more who you stick up top. Torres is a beast on FM but can he handle the lone striker role? Well, probably yes actually, far better than he manages in real-life anyway. Lukaku should be more than able to play up top by himself but he's young and will need time.

With your AM's I'd probably look to split with one IF-att and one Adv.PM-supp and probably have your FC on an attack duty (probably as Adv.For or Complete.Forward). Then you could allow an attack role on one of your midfielders (this could be the AM if you went that way), and keep the other 2 slightly more conservative. Whilst Lamps might struggle for physicality Ramires I imagine would be incredible making intelligent late runs, much as Lampard has done for much of his career.

furiousuk amazing thread. Just one quick question? You let both Adv.Playmakers roam or just let them default with high CF? Thanks

I think that roaming is not checked for these guys to make sure they stay fairly central and that their movement is not too extreme (they have loads of CF though). I want them really sat just in the gap between the opponent DC & MC's and dictating from there - a focal point to move around. With this fulcrum the front 3 are as loose as I can get them to go and create some havoc.

Now this is all interesting. My default 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 (the one I always go to eventually in any game I play) has the triple pivot staggered as the DM, CM and AM all zigzagging behind the central striker. In big games I can then rotate them into being DM-CM-DM, DM-CM-CM or DM-AM-DM. The part that really stands out from the quote is your choice of using the two CPM (APMs in the CM position) both on support and the IF-CF-IF all on attack and then the mentioning of a "breakage" in the team with short passing.

I've yet to experience this breakage with an alternative set up. I use a WB (a) - CB - CB - FB (s) defensive structure which then allows me to have the front line as IF (a)-CF (a) - IF (s). My "floating" AM is then able to be on Attack duty where he is in the CM or AM slot. This tends to tilt the attack into an asymmetric attack but keeps everyone able to pass to everyone else AND allow for the long raking balls if they're open.

So I guess my question is, what's your reasoning behind having the midfield both Support and front three all Attack?

The midfield pair create my focal point, almost a dual pivot but they don't tend to move that much. With this focal point everyone else can buzz around - the front three solely have a job of creating some destruction and the midfield pair are tasked with actually loading the bullets for them. The front-3 do get plenty of assists but it is usually after they have been supplied by the middle pair (or DM). This can mean that my midfielders get modest ratings but the assist should really go their way as the real creative intelligent pass is usually their one.

It's like the Barcelona tactic on steroids! Requires slightly less creativity centrally and more power up front!

I score plenty from balls over the top or from the IF's/FC running at the channels and I also score plenty from counters but a typical attack would be something like:

* FC drops deep (he has a CF-att role, no movement PPMs but is smart enough to use the space), collects the ball from defenders, DM or FB. This is fairly direct. This already starts to dismantle the back line.

* Usually an IF will be attacking any dogleg in the defensive line. If there is space the FC will play them in direct and I've got in behind. More usually a lay-off pass to either of the MC's is required - marking both MC's and the DM is impossible for a 2-man midfield.

* The MC might now hit the IF running at the channel. The options are - through ball to IF, back to FC, to midfield partner, get-out-of-jail to the FB.

* They often choose a through ball to an IF. The IF can then either attempt to play in the other IF or the FC (who has now rejoined the front-line of attack and is looking at running into gaps) or he can shoot himself.

* As my IF's are definite striker types they are often fairly greedy and look to score themselves. When it's not their day this causes problems but normally it's very effective.

This type of direct setup is very very effective when the opposition are better than you or will at least come at you. If the opposition sit back, go narrow, and try nothing then it's not very effective. It is most definitely the club and not the sword. It attempts the beat the opposition down with pace and power - using Attack is actually counter-productive because the game moves too fast and the d-line moves too high. The front-3 need lots of space to get in behind or run at gaps so standard or counter works brilliantly.

When the opposition go negative I change the tactic up to something a little more complex movement-wise to try and get some penetration that way.

[furiousuk]

Should I use the drop deeper and get ball forward shout at the start of the game.

Yeah, if you reckon the game will require it. It won't work in every situation and you might find that your guys play too direct for your liking.

It's generally a good idea to watch the first 10-15 mins and adapt from there. If you at least look at how they setup from the first whistle you can get a very good idea of width & depth in their formation - if you start with the kick-off then you'll probably also get a good idea at their closing down strategy and the game is only a few seconds old.

If they are using a split mentality system in the strikers or midfield you should get a good idea of that also.

[7Bestie7]

Furious,

That's fair enough. I've seen very similar attacking movement from my front line at times and I haven't been adverse in using the midfield all support tactic either. In fact if I'm using an AFW/Poacher this is what I do with the AM (either a third IF or an APM) is supporting rather than driving forward.

The one thing I've noticed is that this all comes down to the striker. Regardless of your wide players, it all comes down to the intelligence and movement of the striker and the supporting cast (midfield + advanced back) second. If you're using an AFW rather than a CFW then the attacking movement isn't as fluid as you might want to get. This seemingly small change can actually negatively impact the way the inside forwards are able to attack.

[furiousuk]

Yes I agree with that, getting the right guy up top is crucial and, in my experience, very very difficult.

I like someone who is primarily a movement-specialist, so loads of stamina and work rate coupled with good anticipation and, crucially, off-the-ball. He also needs to be a finisher as he's a direct threat rather than a creative one BUT he's got to have some creativity too because he'll be playing in the IF's 'round-the-corner' so he can notch a healthy number of assists. Oh, they need to be strong enough to mix it with defenders because I want him fairly high and quick enough to get on the end of through balls. Basically means you're looking for Henry or Rooney or Drogba! Ibrahimovic is too slow, Messi or RvP not strong enough, Bergkamp doesn't like being cramped, Torres isn't smart enough - all of these are brilliant FC's but don't quite play the way I want. If I use them then other things change (I'm not saying this is bad though).

[7Bestie7]

Absolutely. And I'll knock another name off that list if someone is using an older version of FM and that's Rooney. Within this system, the one thing you cannot have is a highly creative, high CF given striker who ends up shooting from all angles to destroy any potential build up play.

[furiousuk]

Yep, fair point. Patience isn't something that we look for in FM as it isn't a direct attribute but that's a good point. Someone firing in shots from all over the place and trying the ridiculous can be fun but it can ruin your setup.

My AMR is my star player but stat-wise he isn't the greatest - he's just incredibly physical and works fairly hard plus if you give him 10 cracks at goal you know 1 or 2 will go in. Can win you a game by yourself but can also get very quickly frustrated and try too hard - something that has definitely been levelled at Rooney when he was younger (arguably still). When you need a bit of guile you normally also need patience.

[JOSEPH!]

Really enjoying the conversations - some very valid points made by a few people. Playing Sevilla at the moment. Here is a quick screen shot as to why I will win this game nine times out of ten.

They are, quite simply, being marked out of the game. Bare in mind player selection here; the AMC is Kanouté and the CF is Negredo. Negredo is having a fantastic season and the vast majority of Sevilla's assists are coming from the centre of the park. Common sense would suggest Kanouté isn't the player providing them. Much more likely Rakitic. Asamoah has Kanouté all day in any case, Pepe will take Negredo and the more intelligent defender, Albiol, has any spare man that will wander through. What spare man though? The two central players of Alonso and Ozil have them both. Although Sevilla set up as a 4-2-3-1 (two CMs) in practice it operates as a very high 4-4-1-1. Something I wouldn't have noticed without watching the whole match.

By the way, a nod to the article suggested earlier by FMJeros. It is a good look at European midfield trios.

edit: interestingly as the game as gone on Sevilla have looked to utilise Negredo's good off the ball ability. He drifts wide quite often, giving Kanouté that lone striker role. This i'm not too bothered about as it neglects the effects of a strong striker in Negredo. This emphasises my point about the opponent blinking first and forcing them to move out of their comfort zone therefore making your team's strengths seem a lot more.

[Pakito]

Pakito, I found your thoughts interesting. Especially how to set-up your midfield and the way you counter-attack when playing against tough opposition. I'm curious, what is your default strategy and philosophy? Is it control and balanced? Also, when you set-up your team against a very strong team, what strategy and philosophy do you use then? Counter and Balanced?

It would be interesting to hear your thoughts?

Cheers, Anders

Normally I go for Balanced/Standard, when up against though opposition Balanced/Counter.

I always leave counter attack ticked however, as my ideal front three - and particularly the inside forwards - relies on speed to latch on the balls delivered by the playmakers between and behind the opposing defenders. This is also the reason why I never exaggerate with pressing - I need space behind the opposition backline for my runners to exploit. If I want to pile up the pressure and I'm confident that my front 3 is of a higher standard than the opposition defense, I go for "press more", but that's it.

I also had a variation that followed the opposite assumption in terms of pressing, with the usual AMd-DPMs-APMs trio, plus an APMa on the wing same side of the DPM, a TQ upfront (tweaked to close down like a complete forward would) and an inside forward on the opposite wing set as target man/run onto ball; short passing, Control or Standard+press more, with both central defenders set as stoppers - I did not try it long enough to tell you that it works well, but from what I saw it was fairly Barcelona-esque... then again, I was using Milan and I assume that a not-as-technically-gifted team would just crash and burn trying to pull this off.

[mikcheck]

I think that roaming is not checked for these guys to make sure they stay fairly central and that their movement is not too extreme (they have loads of CF though). I want them really sat just in the gap between the opponent DC & MC's and dictating from there - a focal point to move around. With this fulcrum the front 3 are as loose as I can get them to go and create some havoc.

Thank you!

[fmjeros]

I always liked the the dual pivot in the MC slots AP+AP or AP+DLP. Recently i signed a player who is clearly an advanced playmaker but has the amazing attribute "Gets forward whenever possible". When i combined him with my other playmaker the same tactic turned to be absolutely magnificent. I knew what i should expect from my "old" playmaker but i never thought such big difference in the way my team plays, he is really acting like Iniesta irl always looking for space behind opposition defense. I think people often overlook the ppm's when buying players, you can't imagine how they affect a players movement and the overall shape of the tactic.

[7Bestie7]

I always liked the the dual pivot in the MC slots AP+AP or AP+DLP. Recently i signed a player who is clearly an advanced playmaker but has the amazing attribute "Gets forward whenever possible". When i combined him with my other playmaker the same tactic turned to be absolutely magnificent. I knew what i should expect from my "old" playmaker but i never thought such big difference in the way my team plays, he is really acting like Iniesta irl always looking for space behind opposition defense. I think people often overlook the ppm's when buying players, you can't imagine how they affect a players movement and the overall shape of the tactic.

PPMs are one of the absolute key aspects of getting a tactic to be perfect.

If someone wants to recreate the Barcelona tactic as close as is possible within FM, the only real option is to copy every single Barca player's PPM into their own squad and make sure the attributes match up in the key areas.

[JOSEPH!]

PPMs are one of the absolute key aspects of getting a tactic to be perfect.

If someone wants to recreate the Barcelona tactic as close as is possible within FM, the only real option is to copy every single Barca player's PPM into their own squad and make sure the attributes match up in the key areas.

True and a good point about replicating however as Furious has pointed out to me in previous posts and I have discovered myself at times PPMs can just move a slider up/down. If you get a youngster and you want to mould that player to your preferred final product it is important to understand what PPMs actually matter in terms of training and what don't. They do take up vital percentages in the training of a player for a while and if it just alters a slider or two then you don't need to do it; a waste of time sometimes.

I'm not saying they are useless - more pick and choose your PPMs

[7Bestie7]

True and a good point about replicating however as Furious has pointed out to me in previous posts and I have discovered myself at times PPMs can just move a slider up/down. If you get a youngster and you want to mould that player to your preferred final product it is important to understand what PPMs actually matter in terms of training and what don't. They do take up vital percentages in the training of a player for a while and if it just alters a slider or two then you don't need to do it; a waste of time sometimes.

I'm not saying they are useless - more pick and choose your PPMs

Your right. My last part was really a semi-rate aimed at those who like to build tactics that "do what I bloody want regardless of who I use". For those who don't mind changing settings for each player then PPMs aren't as important as I made out.

[Abramovic]

damn you furiousuk I was enjoying my 442 but this thread made me change it

good work

[JOSEPH!]

Your right. My last part was really a semi-rate aimed at those who like to build tactics that "do what I bloody want regardless of who I use". For those who don't mind changing settings for each player then PPMs aren't as important as I made out.

Fair enough! I thought I would make the point but I know that you're very knowledgeable in these matters

[yonko]

A while ago I read somewhere on this forum the opinion that high Creative Freedom allows a player to use more of his PPMs. I'm not sure how much of this is true. When I play both Fabregas and Xavi in the same role as Advanced Playmakers on Support, the former always seems positioned lower on the heat map after a match, despite the fact that Xavi has "comes deep to get the ball" while Cesc has "gets forward whenever possible".

Anyway, I've currently settled on two variations of my 41221 tactic with Barca (in my 3rd season). Both variations include Sweeper Keeper-defend, 2 Central Defenders-defend, Defensive Midfielder-defend, 2 Inside Forwards-attack and Trequartista. The differences are in the midfield roles and fullbacks' roles. In one variation I use 2 Fullbacks-attack, Advanced Playmaker-support and Central Midfielder-attack. In the other variation I use 2 Fullbacks-support, Deep-lying Playmaker-support and Advanced Playmaker-support. This set up is used for Away games, while the former is my Home games set up. In both variations my 2 DCs and my 2 MCs have "move into channels". Also, my back 4 has TTB = rarely, while the rest of the team has TTB = mixed. My Team Instructions are set as:

Balanced philosophy

Control strategy

Shorter passing

More expressive

Press more

Default Tackling

Zonal Marking

Drill Crosses

More Roaming

No Playmaker and No Target Man

The shouts I use at start of games are: Pass into Space, Work Ball into Box, Hassle Opponents, Play Through Defense, Push Higher Up. Sometimes I may add Stay on Feet if my players are too aggressive with their tackling and pick up yellow cards. Sometimes I may add Retain Possession and/or change my strategy to Counter when I want more possession/want to kill a game.

Strangely, I'm finding more success in terms of passing and possession since using a combination of Pass Shorter in Team Instructions, but then shouting Pass into Space (note: I have manually adjusted TTB rarely for my defenders and mixed for everyone else). I used to think that Pass to Feet would help me have more successful pass completion and higher possession, but all that did was help my opponents tackle and press harder. Maybe it's because of the fact that I'm in my 3rd season with Barca and the AI has tweaked the way it plays against me, therefore shorter passing doesn't help me or give me the desired goal of having high pass completion and possession.

But I'm wondering how others of you have set your passing instructions/shouts? Of course I realize that in my Barca team I have probably the best passers in the game, especially in midfield.

[kevin3]

With Arteta's PPM they'll have different roles anyway. I think that PPM just sets the forward runs (runs from deep) to rare - I don't think it actually makes him plunge deeper (I'm happy to be corrected here), instead it makes him hold while the rest of the team edge forward, thus he'll appear deeper based on your average team height. All this means that he'll play different to Wilshere or Ramsey. Infact, with that PPM I'd be tempted to have Song's forward runs set to often so that the midfield shifts. The same philosophy I outlined for the triple pivot above.

The 'Comes deep to get ball' ppm allows Arteta (with a mixed runs from deep instruction) to temporarily play a little deeper, opposed to the tactical slider setting which permanently makes him play deeper. I noticed this when I changed Arteta's role from DLP-S to Adv.P-S. When as a DLP, Arteta would permanently stay in line with my DM. This was fine when I wanted him to collect the ball from my defence and dictate play from deep, but when the ball came into the final third of the pitch, he was often far too deep and isolated to receive the ball. Also, as he was permanently in-line with my DM, it restricted the passing angles that were available so sometimes it resulted in a hoof up-field. I tried him with a roaming instruction but I didn't feel comfortable with it as he would still stay as deep but sometimes he would break into very advanced positions.

When I changed him to a Adv.P-S (with a conservative mentality of 8), it stationed him 5-10 yards ahead of my DMC and the spacing of my midfield three was generally better. His PPM to come deep allowed him to collect the ball off the defence at times but it also meant he could get involved in the final third of the pitch without straying too far forward.

Infact, with that PPM I'd be tempted to have Song's forward runs set to often so that the midfield shifts.

When setting an MC to DLP in a 4-3-3, I feel it's important, as you say, to make sure that the MC and DM are not bunched together. It means you might have to give the DM a higher mentality, runs from deep often or a roaming instruction to make sure that this doesn't occur.

In my save, I have Wilshere as a Adv.P-S with a neutral mentality and roaming ticked whilst Song plays as a DM-S with roaming ticked, high creative freedom and a mentality of 12. Arteta is the one that holds position and looks to receive the ball whilst the other two look for spaces to exploit.

[Jambo98]

Must admit, as a non tactical expert, i find this shape/formation relatively easy to create a tactic from. I have created my one and i am fairly rigid in how i stick to using it, so long as i have suitable players.

So far ive found taht whilst not a world beating tactic, it can help you get the best out of your team and move them up a level - will it help QPR win the prem in season 1? No. It might help lift a mid table team into a euro contender for example.

My shape is a FB defend at right back, a WB auto at left back, a Central partnership of one BPD and one CD (both on defend). I find the BPD just gives a balance and helps me build from the back. It should go without saying, that if i play as a team 2 big lumps at CB, then i wouldnt keep the BPD role, but ive found that at most levels, you can find a semi decent candidate. The WB is a result of the formation ahead - having only one definately keeps me more defensively stable, but allows some attacking threat from deep.

The midfield 3, i go with a DM on Defend, the right CM being an APM on attack, the left CM being CM on support. I chose the combo initially because of the players i had, and as i watched it i liked the balance. THe DM is key, i found playing an Anchor there might have felt more sensible, to offset the 2 more attacking infront, but i found that just created too big a gap between the lines. The DM doesnt charge fowrard, but stays closed to the other 2. The CM support might seem a very bland role, but it can be deadly. It puts the player around the edge of the area a lot, and if you get a player with good long shots in this role, he can get a hatful. I had Guarin there in one save, and he specialises in that, got me 12 goals despite not being a regular starter.

The front 3 is where i think this can be a lethal formation. I always go with IF (attack) - Poacher (attack) - Winger (support). Key i have found is to have the poacher mentality maxed out, and have him play right on the last line. This has a dual purpose - Firstly he gets onto lots of through balls and gets one on one with keep, but it also creates the room in behind for both the IF to cut in, and the AP to drift into.

In terms of results, it has let me take FC Twente to the CL final in season 2, allowed me to take Hearts to a league win in season one, has let me take Scotland to the Euros with a crazy 5 v 3 win over Portugal away in playoffs. It also let my Scotland team beat Spain 4 v 0 in the Euros (!!!).

Good easy shape to get started with if you want to learn to develop tactics.

[JOSEPH!]

Ok... Coming up against a good Athletic Bilbao side I did my research, watched previous goals and usual scouting stuff. Predicted a formation and set up and set my formation accordingly. Llorente and Muniain are having outstanding seasons and Javi Martinez is as good as ever. I thought I had them fairly well pegged as I beat them well earlier in the season however I have just come up against this formation:

I was so surprised to see this. It almost looks like the Catenaccio of old. Having a strong spine alongside wide and some central using strict, aggressive man marking with the others there to sweep anything up that gets away from them i.e. DC central and DM central.

It will be interesting as my Madrid side are fairly structured in their play with high creative freedom only allocated sparingly. I'll keep an eye on how my 4-5-1 variant copes. Perhaps I'll have to go all Hollan '74 on their ass! Will keep you informed - in the mean time, any thoughts would be interesting.

[hyrule_king]

Is there a download link for the WOW tactic, looks amazing.

Great read. Appreciate your hard work.

[7Bestie7]

It will be interesting as my Madrid side are fairly structured in their play with high creative freedom only allocated sparingly. I'll keep an eye on how my 4-5-1 variant copes. Perhaps I'll have to go all Hollan '74 on their ass! Will keep you informed - in the mean time, any thoughts would be interesting.

In a way they've matched you man for man. AM vs DM, LM/RM vs your RW/LW while also putting pressure on your defenders in possession, CM vs your CM and DM vs your most attacking CM/AM.

I would push a lot of the attacks down your right considering Munian is not a great defensive player but use a left wing-back to overload the more defensive Iraola. If you attack down the right and force their CB-L out wide, any quick switch of the flank then has Iraola covering your IL, surprised by your WB bursting forward and their CB-r being forced to do the same thing and get wide. That leaves the central CB and the DM man marking your striker and attacking midfielder which only needs on mistake or a great through ball to overcome.

[JOSEPH!]

In a way they've matched you man for man. AM vs DM, LM/RM vs your RW/LW while also putting pressure on your defenders in possession, CM vs your CM and DM vs your most attacking CM/AM.

I would push a lot of the attacks down your right considering Munian is not a great defensive player but use a left wing-back to overload the more defensive Iraola. If you attack down the right and force their CB-L out wide, any quick switch of the flank then has Iraola covering your IL, surprised by your WB bursting forward and their CB-r being forced to do the same thing and get wide. That leaves the central CB and the DM man marking your striker and attacking midfielder which only needs on mistake or a great through ball to overcome.

That was my thinking too. They've gone for good man for man coverage.

Yeah that was exactly my thought process too. My creativity through the middle is pretty amazing with Ozil and Alonso. One thing I have changed however is the base instructions for Di Maria and Ronaldo - they have gone to Wingers(a). I want and need them wide to create space down the middle and stretch that back three. My CMs can exploit space with late arrivals but most importantly, as you said, it creates a 2-on-2 with my CF and AM against their CB and DM.

In all honesty I am ok with their match ups. My general philosophy with this Madrid team is forcing my opponent to change up first. Overloading their flanks is key, as you've suggested, as a result Marcelo and Ramos have license to roam. I am wary about Muniain however - his supply to Llorente has been amazing this season. However my CBs and DMs have any counter attacking threat as their width should be pinned back.

Cheers for that Bestie, never come up against anything like this so was good to hear that I was one the same wavelength as you

[7Bestie7]

No worries Joseph.

The thing about strange formations like that (in FM and RL) or even strange reactions to going a man down is that it only works if nothing goes wrong. Teams often play that formation against me when they've got ten men so that either the DM or AM is missing and I generally get more attacking because of it. The minute you are able to break through and score it makes the entire reactive formation null and void. They then have to adjust and change formations (be careful as this can sometimes lead them to being more potent themselves) or run the risk of getting swamped and losing by a massive margin.

[ham_aka_stam]

Just wanted to say this is a fantastic thread, and one I wish I had the time to read in full.

A great OP showing the flexibility of a system as well as some great examples of it being used in real life.

[llama3]

this is an incredible thread agreed. would love to see 1 of these for a 4-2-3-1 formation

[yonko]

Ok... Coming up against a good Athletic Bilbao side I did my research, watched previous goals and usual scouting stuff. Predicted a formation and set up and set my formation accordingly. Llorente and Muniain are having outstanding seasons and Javi Martinez is as good as ever. I thought I had them fairly well pegged as I beat them well earlier in the season however I have just come up against this formation:

I was so surprised to see this. It almost looks like the Catenaccio of old. Having a strong spine alongside wide and some central using strict, aggressive man marking with the others there to sweep anything up that gets away from them i.e. DC central and DM central.

It will be interesting as my Madrid side are fairly structured in their play with high creative freedom only allocated sparingly. I'll keep an eye on how my 4-5-1 variant copes. Perhaps I'll have to go all Hollan '74 on their ass! Will keep you informed - in the mean time, any thoughts would be interesting.

Bilbao always play this formation when Bielsa is in charge. Interestingly, they use it for away games. At home they play 41221.

The way I set up against this weird formation is I man-mark their DM, MC and AMC. I change my AMR/L to Winger-attack and I focus passing down both flanks. I also use high D-line.

[JOSEPH!]

Bilbao always play this formation when Bielsa is in charge. Interestingly, they use it for away games. At home they play 41221.

The way I set up against this weird formation is I man-mark their DM, MC and AMC. I change my AMR/L to Winger-attack and I focus passing down both flanks. I also use high D-line.

Interestingly they, if memory serves, have used it once this season prior to me playing them. Although the 2-0 scoreline was fairly modest in my efforts they were tactically undone and changed to a defensive set up early second half.

I will double check the use of the formation though on my save -- may be wrong on that one!

[Aaust]

Very interesting thread, especially as I've never managed to get much success with the 4-1-2-2-1, even if 4-3-3 is by far my favourite formation in real life.

My biggest problem has been the central striker, because if he is not world class, then he needs a perfect mix of players around him in order to work.

I've never had any success over time with a quick, technical striker in this spot. As an advanced forward he will play too high up against the opposition CBs in very cramped space, and will have big problems holding on to the ball.

I find that advanced forward can work if he is quick AND strong, but players like that are often difficult to come by unless you are managing a top side.

My best bet has been to use a strong target man (normally set as a target man - support) for this position - he can keep hold of the ball and distribute it, but will normally play far away from the opposition goal and will often lack the pace to make the most of opportunities on the counter.

I guess if you are playing as Arsenal, Barcelona or Chelsea then having a big strong striker won't be as important, because the rest of the team will be of such high quality that they will help you keep possession regardless. But with a weaker side behind him a nippy little fellow will just make you lose the ball again and again if you try to attack, especially against an established defence.

This is the main reason why I have found this formation impractical at a lower or medium level.

[7Bestie7]

I find that advanced forward can work if he is quick AND strong, but players like that are often difficult to come by unless you are managing a top side.

My best bet has been to use a strong target man (normally set as a target man - support) for this position - he can keep hold of the ball and distribute it, but will normally play far away from the opposition goal and will often lack the pace to make the most of opportunities on the counter.

While my Man United saves have been successful in using an advanced forward, the most "success" in regards to performances (not just a good goals/games ratio) I've had is using my AFW/Poachers on a complete striker - support. Essentilly the CFW and the AFW are only really separated by mentality and creative freedom differences so by using the support option you're cutting back on the amount of "thrust" a striker like Hernandez, Owen, Soldado etc has and making their play far more involved with the team. It isn't a great workaround because this can cause you not to get the best out of the striker in question.

I've found that the 4-3-3 needs to have either the team set up for the striker (and then you can have it where they have some bloody awful games) or the striker is set up for the team which creates a much more fluid and consistent result but not always to the benefit of the striker.

[Gee_Simpson]

this is an incredible thread agreed. would love to see 1 of these for a 4-2-3-1 formation

Yeah I agree.

Now that this thread has covered my 2nd favourite formation, it would be cool to see a thread based on my favourite formation, the 4231 I'm not the greatest tactically so couldn't start a thread on it myself

I know there was a 4231 thread a while back which is 5 pages long but it wasn't analysing the formation like this thread has with the 41221. I think 'JOSEPH!' would be a good candidate as you seem to know what you are talking about and I know you use the 4231 formation with Real Madrid. Oh, and regarding this thread, I have already made my thoughts clear on it further up which was of course, full of praise

[Flohrinho]

What an epic opening post Furious.

Why haven't I noticed this thread until this morning?

[okd]

Very interesting thread, especially as I've never managed to get much success with the 4-1-2-2-1, even if 4-3-3 is by far my favourite formation in real life.

My biggest problem has been the central striker, because if he is not world class, then he needs a perfect mix of players around him in order to work.

I've never had any success over time with a quick, technical striker in this spot. As an advanced forward he will play too high up against the opposition CBs in very cramped space, and will have big problems holding on to the ball.

I find that advanced forward can work if he is quick AND strong, but players like that are often difficult to come by unless you are managing a top side.

My best bet has been to use a strong target man (normally set as a target man - support) for this position - he can keep hold of the ball and distribute it, but will normally play far away from the opposition goal and will often lack the pace to make the most of opportunities on the counter.

I guess if you are playing as Arsenal, Barcelona or Chelsea then having a big strong striker won't be as important, because the rest of the team will be of such high quality that they will help you keep possession regardless. But with a weaker side behind him a nippy little fellow will just make you lose the ball again and again if you try to attack, especially against an established defence.

This is the main reason why I have found this formation impractical at a lower or medium level.

433 is also my favorite formation but in FM i have problems with it's efficiency because of the front 3 finishing due to several reasons:

-the CF is always marked by the CDs,so he needs to be a fast,tehnical and composed brute

-the IFWs are shooting from angles,so they need to be tehnical,composed,inteligent,fast and balaced

Now how man players are there like that ?! Sure,there are some cheap players who can play that roles but they lack some skills like decisions,composure,teamwork,etc and they end up shooting everywhere except the back of the net

[JOSEPH!]

Yeah I agree.

Now that this thread has covered my 2nd favourite formation, it would be cool to see a thread based on my favourite formation, the 4231 I'm not the greatest tactically so couldn't start a thread on it myself

I know there was a 4231 thread a while back which is 5 pages long but it wasn't analysing the formation like this thread has with the 41221. I think 'JOSEPH!' would be a good candidate as you seem to know what you are talking about and I know you use the 4231 formation with Real Madrid. Oh, and regarding this thread, I have already made my thoughts clear on it further up which was of course, full of praise

Happy to make a start if people feel that it would be useful -- wouldn't want to tread on anyone's toes though! Couchaldhino (spelling?) has a long thread on it as you pointed out Gee which has just been bumped up to the first page on the forums. I know SRL has also made a great thread on his 'Formation Inspired by Rafa' which is inevitably a 4-2-3-1, albeit a more successful one than Rafa's turned out to be -- hindsight is a wonderful thing.

If there is enough interest I'd be happy too. Not actually read Couchaldhino's thread on it yet :o will get on it!

[JOSEPH!]

433 is also my favorite formation but in FM i have problems with it's efficiency because of the front 3 finishing due to several reasons:

-the CF is always marked by the CDs,so he needs to be a fast,tehnical and composed brute

-the IFWs are shooting from angles,so they need to be tehnical,composed,inteligent,fast and balaced

Now how man players are there like that ?! Sure,there are some cheap players who can play that roles but they lack some skills like decisions,composure,teamwork,etc and they end up shooting everywhere except the back of the net

Furious's favourite aspect of this, and most formations, is the interaction of the front three. I think we could all help you but I know Furious will have some views on this

[okd]

I have no problem with the interaction of the front three,they play just like i want them to with a simple setup: balaced philosophy, CF-s and IFWs-a.They all get good chances and miss alot of them

[JOSEPH!]

433 is also my favorite formation but in FM i have problems with it's efficiency because of the front 3 finishing due to several reasons:

-the CF is always marked by the CDs,so he needs to be a fast,tehnical and composed brute

-the IFWs are shooting from angles,so they need to be tehnical,composed,inteligent,fast and balaced

I have no problem with the interaction of the front three,they play just like i want them to with a simple setup: balaced philosophy, CF-s and IFWs-a.They all get good chances and miss alot of them

Fair enough. What is their finishing attribute? Composure? Shooting under pressure? Taking the shots on their wrong foot? Take a screenshot from the analysis tab of your scoring chances and what players are missing. Perhaps even upload a highlight or two of their chances and we can try and help you.

[MeesterCat]

Very interesting thread, especially as I've never managed to get much success with the 4-1-2-2-1, even if 4-3-3 is by far my favourite formation in real life.

My biggest problem has been the central striker, because if he is not world class, then he needs a perfect mix of players around him in order to work.

I've never had any success over time with a quick, technical striker in this spot. As an advanced forward he will play too high up against the opposition CBs in very cramped space, and will have big problems holding on to the ball.

I find that advanced forward can work if he is quick AND strong, but players like that are often difficult to come by unless you are managing a top side.

My best bet has been to use a strong target man (normally set as a target man - support) for this position - he can keep hold of the ball and distribute it, but will normally play far away from the opposition goal and will often lack the pace to make the most of opportunities on the counter.

I guess if you are playing as Arsenal, Barcelona or Chelsea then having a big strong striker won't be as important, because the rest of the team will be of such high quality that they will help you keep possession regardless. But with a weaker side behind him a nippy little fellow will just make you lose the ball again and again if you try to attack, especially against an established defence.

This is the main reason why I have found this formation impractical at a lower or medium level.

My experience sort of backs this up.

My current main strikers at the club are Nolan Roux and Jelle Vossen. Neither are especially amazing, but they do Ok. I've found that the team as a whole performs much better with Vossen playing as a Defensive Forward than when Roux plays (Usually AF) despite him being on paper a better player.

[furiousuk]

I had a good look at Jelle Vossen before settling on this guy a few years ago:

I used this chap upfront for a few years. He's not without his flaws but had a sparkling 2 years or so before going downhill a little and I replaced with my current chap (I got a biggish offer from Chelsea so would of been stupid not to sell - he certainly wasn't in the kind of form seen in the shot above at the end and flopped at Chelsea and is flopping at Burnley although he is now much older).

The season in the screenshot he was a beast in front of goal but the season before or after (I forget which) he has a hatful of assists and a more modest goal tally. He worked superbly with my super-athletic striker on the right wing.

He played almost exclusively as a CF-Att with both wide-men as IF-Att. At this point was mid to high table and I only sold him when I was really starting to bother the big guns and needed a better player upfront.

There's been a lot of chat about the role of the CF and it is, of course, pivotal in helping to define this formation (although a lot is placed on any lone striker formation - at least with aggressive wide players he has more support around him). This guy is immense physically - able to get the run on CB's if allowed to get a head of steam up and able to bully them for strength, he's decent mentally but not a hard-worker or a team-player, he's a good creator but is severely hampered by technique, he's good in the air but should be pretty pap in-front of goal (his record speaks otherwise but it wasn't a massive surprise that when he lost his form it never ever recovered, I'm maybe 5/6 years on from that shot).

This guy is not too far from a poor-man's Drogba (similar to Vossen in my save) which is exactly what I wanted as I couldn't afford a real top quality striker at that time.

To make things even more interesting he replaced James Vaughan and Ched Evans as my main strikers. Those players are not bad players but nowhere near the top - they were outstanding in the Championship but struggled in the Prem. Both are fairly well rounded but better at scoring than anything else, however, they both played the CF-Att role not too bad (certainly as well as I could hope for given their modest attributes). Evans in particular stayed longer than his attributes would of suggested because he often performed well (does better with another chap beside him).

I guess the point I'm making laboriously is that a top quality FC is pretty crucial for a top side (as you would expect) but this formation can work with other players at the helm too, so long as they are at least fairly well rounded. Djuric, above, has flaws but they aren't all flaws in one area (apart from running with the ball, he looks like Heskey in that regard: clumsy and awkward) so he's fairly well rounded and physical enough to play the role I wanted. Players like Michael Owen are far far better than Evans or Vaughan but I'd pick the latter players over Owen for this formation any day because he simply isn't suited to the role.

It's the 'type' of FC you choose rather than the quality that will ultimately decide their success.

[furiousuk]

Very interesting thread, especially as I've never managed to get much success with the 4-1-2-2-1, even if 4-3-3 is by far my favourite formation in real life.

My biggest problem has been the central striker, because if he is not world class, then he needs a perfect mix of players around him in order to work.

...

I find that advanced forward can work if he is quick AND strong, but players like that are often difficult to come by unless you are managing a top side.

...

This is the main reason why I have found this formation impractical at a lower or medium level.

My post above quickly made the point that lower-quality players can be a big success but I'll add that I only adopted this formation in earnest when I was lower-table Premiership so was starting to attract good quality players.

I struggled with it (and the 4231) lower down but the problem wasn't attacking at all, it was defensively frailty as you're mentally asking quite a lot of the guys in the middle. Although the middle is heavily defended it can be bombarded, particularly the flanks (the 442 in lower leagues in England for example will attack exactly this area) and part of the way this formation defends is as a disciplined unit in the middle which means you need at least half-decent mentals - any chink through lack of positioning or concentration will potentially chink the armour and the defensive solidity is gone.

Attack wise I could make it happen. Rickie Lambert did a fine job because whilst he had flaws (pace for example) he was fairly well rounded.

Lower down it is hard to find well-rounded players but I think one area you could sacrifice is pace. So long as you have a bit of pace out wide you can get away with a slower guy in the middle who has the strength to play high with the CB's. You could pick up an aging player with great mentals but lacking a bit of physical prowess and they would likely do a fantastic job - match him with 2 enthusiastic and quick youngsters out wide and could be a devastating lower-league trio.

Defensively its harder I think. Maybe playing high with quick defenders who can try and mop up any mistakes before they become a problem might help. A mentally strong DM would probably be essential as well, again, an aging influential chap dropping down the leagues could be a good fit.

[Gee_Simpson]

Happy to make a start if people feel that it would be useful -- wouldn't want to tread on anyone's toes though! Couchaldhino (spelling?) has a long thread on it as you pointed out Gee which has just been bumped up to the first page on the forums. I know SRL has also made a great thread on his 'Formation Inspired by Rafa' which is inevitably a 4-2-3-1, albeit a more successful one than Rafa's turned out to be -- hindsight is a wonderful thing.

If there is enough interest I'd be happy too. Not actually read Couchaldhino's thread on it yet :o will get on it!

Yeah Crouchaldhino's thread is a good read and as you pointed out, SRL's. The 1 DM & 1 CM is an idea that I like and if I'm not mistaken, you also use that shape? I'm wary of using it though due to a match engine flaw.

[okd]

Fair enough. What is their finishing attribute? Composure? Shooting under pressure? Taking the shots on their wrong foot? Take a screenshot from the analysis tab of your scoring chances and what players are missing. Perhaps even upload a highlight or two of their chances and we can try and help you.

Thanks for trying to help but I wasn't talking about a particular case.I know what attributes count,i mentioned them in the first post.

Edit:furiousuk has a composed beast,too bad he's not tehnical

[furiousuk]

Thanks for trying to help but I wasn't talking about a particular case.I know what attributes count,i mentioned them in the first post.

Edit:furiousuk has a composed beast,too bad he's not tehnical

He did a great job for a while back there! I had to let him go though, just natural progression taking place!

If it's any consolation, my guys miss plenty too. In my case it's because I've favoured immense physicality over technical ability and have taken the shotgun approach to scoring - if I fire enough bullets at the goal then enough of them will go in to ensure I win! Simple, but effective!

I did have the problem of the opposition frustrating my play which meant plenty of rushed or forced shots that are never going to be of much use, particularly if you're not an abundantly technically proficient team. I wrote a little about how I dealt with that situation here. A lot of it came from help WWFan gave me when I hit the negativity wall that foils many teams as they hit the big time, this thread here goes through the discussion. The long and short of it was that my guys were snatching at chances that weren't really decent chances.

I've since tried to be more cunning in my tactical decisions to try and elicit different types of chances and whilst my number of shots & chances is generally lower they are of a far higher quality so my conversion rate goes up.

[JOSEPH!]

Yeah Crouchaldhino's thread is a good read and as you pointed out, SRL's. The 1 DM & 1 CM is an idea that I like and if I'm not mistaken, you also use that shape? I'm wary of using it though due to a match engine flaw.

I used that shape against Barcelona and tend to use it against teams that like to employ width. It is a bit of a got to formation as well because of its good link up potential. A ME flaw? Do tell!