ddidiodion Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Nah not all. He took the best penalty in the CL final. No he didn't... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vynal Seven Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Yeah, he did. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 No, he didn't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vynal Seven Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Erm, yeah... yeah, he did. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Erm, yeah... yeah, he did. No, he didn't. It wasn't even Chelsea's best penalty, have you seen Luiz, Lampard or Drogba's penalties? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vynal Seven Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 haha, yeah okay. I don't remember what Luiz and Lampard's penalties were like but I know Cole's was a brilliant strike , low and right into the side netting, completely unstoppable and for a defender simply brilliant. I also remember Drogba's which other than being the winning penalty was nothing particularly brilliant about it so the fact you mention it confirms you're just plain wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 haha, yeah okay. I don't remember what Luiz and Lampard's penalties were like but I know Cole's was a brilliant strike , low and right into the side netting, completely unstoppable and for a defender simply brilliant. I also remember Drogba's which other than being the winning penalty was nothing particularly brilliant about it so the fact you mention it confirms you're just plain wrong. Nah not all. He took the best penalty in the CL final. Get out you cretin. The fact you don't even remember that Coles wasn't low and was at a very savable height speaks volumes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vynal Seven Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 I've just looked and Luiz and Lampard's penalties. Both smashes high and pretty much in the middle of the goal. Cole's way better. Unlucky. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vynal Seven Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 The fact you don't even remember that Coles wasn't low and was at a very savable height speaks volumes. Savable height yet the keeper goes the right way and doesnt get anywhere near it, what does that tell you? Just face it, Cole took a absolutely brilliant penalty in the CL final, whether or not you agree that it was actually THE best is doesnt really matter, still proves you orginal comment completely and utterly wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Gets no where near? Lampards in the middle? You didn't bother watching the shootout out did you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vynal Seven Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Erm, yes? It was high but it was pretty much dead central. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 If thats genuinely what you saw then two words... 'spec' 'savers'. (And this is without the fact that even Luiz's which was dead central was still better than Coles) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vynal Seven Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 3:53 of this video, if that can't be described as central then I don't really know what can. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 That isn't straight down the middle though ... he clearly hits it to the right (not to mention it's completely unsaveable) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vynal Seven Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 You're having a laugh mate if you think that's "to the right". If you split the goal into 3rd's it wouldnt even be to the right of the middle section ffs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Except you don't split a goal into thirds, central is central i.e down the middle. Not getting into this... if you think that is a worse penalty than Coles you're off your rocker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vynal Seven Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Ahhh I see, so you were just being incredibly pedantic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zvonimir Boban Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 You're both off your rockers and the last few posts aren't great for everyone else's sanity either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Ahhh I see, so you were just being incredibly pedantic. Oh and when did you pick up on that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vynal Seven Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Waay too late. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmr Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Cole's always been good at penalties. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plumble Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Cole's a very competant taker, imo. Had him down as a dead cert to score for England (probably why he missed) Ronaldo should have gone earlier but that's Bento's fault, not his. Best takers don't always go first, look at the champions league final. Mata isn't Chelsea's best and i'm pretty sure Lahm isn't Bayern's best. Really shouldn't have put Alves and Pepe ahead of him though. I would have gone: Nani, Moutinho, Ronaldo, Pepe and Alves. All this glory stuff is annoying, does that mean Cesc was going for glory as no way is Ramos or Pique better at penalties than him? Drogba is clearly a better taker than Mata, Luiz, Cole. Still he went 5th but because they won, it was a non issue. Like someone mentioned earlier, if a penalty was given during the match, who would take? I know for Chelsea it'd be Lampard or Drogba, not Juan Mata. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powlay Posted July 1, 2012 Author Share Posted July 1, 2012 Ashley Cole is normally fantastic at penalties. Not outrageous to have him go before Drogba. So you SHUT UP If chelsea has a penaly in normal play who would get it first Drogba or cole? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georginho_juventusygr Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 I don't understand why it could be Cristiano Ronaldo's fault. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
outlander Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Wait, Ronaldo was not Portugals top scorer in the tournament? Who would have taken a penalty during the match had Portugal got one during the game? And who never took one during the shoot-out? Stop being insulting. I wasn't insulting really. But, it's really obvious, that by the way you think about this situation, maths is not your strong point. That doesn't mean you are stupid or something, people have different strengths and weaknesses. I'm not really great at describing something, which is obvious to me. So, it's hard now to show why is it wrong to think that having the best penalty taker at 5th is anything different, than at 2nd, 3rd or 4th. There is just absolutely no difference. Yes, if he was the 6th, there is a world of difference. May be to understand the point you should for extremes. Think of it this way: if among 5 takers of penalties there were 3 little kids who surely miss and 2 super-Ronaldos who never miss. Is there any difference if Ronaldos did hit the first 2 penalties or last 2? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I wasn't insulting really. But, it's really obvious, that by the way you think about this situation, maths is not your strong point. That doesn't mean you are stupid or something, people have different strengths and weaknesses. I'm not really great at describing something, which is obvious to me. So, it's hard now to show why is it wrong to think that having the best penalty taker at 5th is anything different, than at 2nd, 3rd or 4th. There is just absolutely no difference. Yes, if he was the 6th, there is a world of difference. May be to understand the point you should for extremes. Think of it this way: if among 5 takers of penalties there were 3 little kids who surely miss and 2 super-Ronaldos who never miss. Is there any difference if Ronaldos did hit the first 2 penalties or last 2? Christiano Ronaldo did not take a penalty, the guy that would have taken a penalty during the match just stood and watched as a Centerback who looked like he had crapped his pants missed and Portugal left the tournament. Had Ronaldo taken the first penalty there would not be an exisiting thread about this. Had Ronaldo gone first and scored, who knows what might have changed, would there have been more pressure on the Spanish players being down one penalty, would Moutinho have been more relaxed taking his, what if what if what if, but damn it as a coach I would want to know my best taker had taken one and we got knocked out fair and square. If you can't see the problem with a Center back who may have never taken a penalty before, taking a penalty and the best pk taker does not then I have to say WOW, also I am not sure where the little kids analogy comes from but it kinda makes my point, there was no depth to Portugals penalty kick takers and therefore the best penalty taker should have gone early, probably first. Granted the result might not have changed, but there would be no doubts and Portugal can say they gave it their best and it never worked out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powlay Posted July 2, 2012 Author Share Posted July 2, 2012 If you can't see the problem with a Center back who may have never taken a penalty before, taking a penalty and the best pk taker does not then I have to say WOW, Spain sent forth a defender who hadnt took one before. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubenJ Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 but that was Piqué, never in doubt that was going in Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaceCrusher Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 If you can't see the problem with a Center back who may have never taken a penalty before, taking a penalty and the best pk taker does not then I have to say WOW, also I am not sure where the little kids analogy comes from but it kinda makes my point, there was no depth to Portugals penalty kick takers and therefore the best penalty taker should have gone early, probably first. Bruno Alves took penalties before, tough not often, but he is considered good and always takes one in shootouts. He is a set pieces specialist after all, used to take all the direct free-kicks when at Porto. Moutinho on the other hand, is pretty weak at penalties and misses more than he scores, should never take the first. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeWee Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Who takes the which penalty is clearly a matter of your psychological model on pressure regarding the PK series is. If there's no psychological pressure at all, then the order does not matter. In fact, you can then see every single penalty independently from other kicks. In this case, there is no difference at all in the order. Alves would have missed in any case, whether he was first, fourth or last. Having CR earlier doesn't change the outcome in this model. If the model is that being in the lead increases negative pressure on the opponent, then order by best penalty taker first is the best order. This increases the chance of being in the lead and thus increasing the chance of creating negative pressure. If the model is that taking decisive penalties increases pressure on the taker, than putting your best penalty takers on spot 4, 5 and 3, in that order, (3rd, while being a guaranteed spot, is rarely decisive, while 4th is often decisive and usually guaranteed, while 5th is always a decisive penalty but not guaranteed) I don't think there's a really clear proven model, but if there is truth in either model, it wouldn't hurt to make it in an order like: 1, 5, 4, 2, 3; where "1" is the best taker and "5" the worst. The first puts your team in the lead (hopefully), second is the least decisive of the lot and can be the worst. The fourth is often decisive and almost always guaranteed and should host your second best taker. The order of the third and fifth can be swapped, depending on which mental model you think is more likely to be true. What you think of CR and Bento with regards to this series, depends a lot on where you think he stands in relation to the other penalty kick takers, how well you believe he handles pressure (known bottlers should be in slot 2/3 as they are least likely to be decisive) and which psychological model you believe fits best. However, in no way is the decision to put a good penalty taker in spot 5 "moronic"; it's always decisive and high pressure if it comes to that. So it's important to have a good PK taker there that can handle pressure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
outlander Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Oh, at last someone who understands the situation and also can describe it well(which I can't ). Read this post above carefully, those who are saying ******** like "but the best penalty taker didn't take one as he was 5th, so it was a crap decision". That's absolutely stupid logic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGartz Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Who takes the which penalty is clearly a matter of your psychological model on pressure regarding the PK series is. If there's no psychological pressure at all, then the order does not matter. In fact, you can then see every single penalty independently from other kicks. In this case, there is no difference at all in the order. Alves would have missed in any case, whether he was first, fourth or last. Having CR earlier doesn't change the outcome in this model. If the model is that being in the lead increases negative pressure on the opponent, then order by best penalty taker first is the best order. This increases the chance of being in the lead and thus increasing the chance of creating negative pressure. If the model is that taking decisive penalties increases pressure on the taker, than putting your best penalty takers on spot 4, 5 and 3, in that order, (3rd, while being a guaranteed spot, is rarely decisive, while 4th is often decisive and usually guaranteed, while 5th is always a decisive penalty but not guaranteed) I don't think there's a really clear proven model, but if there is truth in either model, it wouldn't hurt to make it in an order like: 1, 5, 4, 2, 3; where "1" is the best taker and "5" the worst. The first puts your team in the lead (hopefully), second is the least decisive of the lot and can be the worst. The fourth is often decisive and almost always guaranteed and should host your second best taker. The order of the third and fifth can be swapped, depending on which mental model you think is more likely to be true. What you think of CR and Bento with regards to this series, depends a lot on where you think he stands in relation to the other penalty kick takers, how well you believe he handles pressure (known bottlers should be in slot 2/3 as they are least likely to be decisive) and which psychological model you believe fits best. However, in no way is the decision to put a good penalty taker in spot 5 "moronic"; it's always decisive and high pressure if it comes to that. So it's important to have a good PK taker there that can handle pressure. TeeWee that's awesome, Math is cool Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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