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Where should England be ranked?


Lermon

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This is going to get so much flack :D But could be fun.

Where should England be ranked?- on which countries are they about on par with- since Italy are clearly a cut above. (that likely without question Germany and Spain would be too)

I'm going to have a go:

I might suggest England are on par with Portugal. And in terms of European teams it goes like this. I really don't know where to put Holland though.

Tier 1) Spain=Germany=Italy

Tier 2) France=Portugal=England

Tier 3) Croatia=Czech Rep

Tier 4) Ukraine=Sweden=Denmark=Greece

Would that be fair to say? Or post your alternative sort of hierarchy.

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Yeah, Italy wiped the floor with England they must be = to Spain and Germany.

Yep because Spain drew with Italy 1-1 first round. :)

No it is fair enough to say Italy are a cut below Germany and Spain.

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Did mine as exact numbering so obv could change after the next 3 games :D, Based on how good I think they are not how they did in this (although that ofc does influence it)

-----------Tier 1

1. Germany

2. Spain

-----------Tier 2

3. Portugal

4. Italy

5. Holland

-----------Tier 3

6. Croatia

7. Russia

8. France

9. England

----------Tier 4

10. Denmark

11. Czech Republic

12. Ukraine

13. Sweden

14. Greece

----------Tier 5

15. Poland

16. Ireland

Massively subjective ofc, feel free to criticize like "rofl Holland tier 2" etc

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I'd say:

Spain and Germany

Holland and Portugal

England, France, Italy, Croatia etc. etc.

I would watch out where you rate Holland at the moment. There's going to be a big change in the team there used to be and it is not getting that much better at all.

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Did mine as exact numbering so obv could change after the next 3 games :D, Based on how good I think they are not how they did in this (although that ofc does influence it)

-----------Tier 1

1. Germany

2. Spain

-----------Tier 2

3. Portugal

4. Italy

5. Holland

-----------Tier 3

6. Croatia

7. Russia

8. France

9. England

----------Tier 4

10. Denmark

11. Czech Republic

12. Ukraine

13. Sweden

14. Greece

----------Tier 5

15. Poland

16. Ireland

Massively subjective ofc, feel free to criticize like "rofl Holland tier 2" etc

Pretty much this is what I would say, and add that there's not a big gap between each tier. Only Ireland looked consistently miles out of their depth, and maybe only Germany have looked distinctly a class apart.

England sort of the border between tier 3 and 4. Personally I'd bump Holland down to tier 3 or maybe even 4.

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I would watch out where you rate Holland at the moment. There's going to be a big change in the team there used to be and it is not getting that much better at all.

Perhaps, but there's still a lot of quality in that team. Euro 12 should be an exception, imo.

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Germany and Spain are Tier 1 and then to be honest I don't think there's much difference between about 10 of the teams, then Ireland, Poland, Czech Republic and possibly Greece at the bottom

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Germany and Spain are Tier 1 and then to be honest I don't think there's much difference between about 10 of the teams, then Ireland, Poland, Czech Republic and possibly Greece at the bottom

Bit harsh...

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Bit harsh...

Re-reading that it seems I meant bottom of the 16, which I didn't! I mean in the bottom tier with the other three nations mentioned, though they make the strongest claim of the 4 to be in the next tier up (hence the possibly).

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Re-reading that it seems I meant bottom of the 16, which I didn't! I mean in the bottom tier with the other three nations mentioned, though they make the strongest claim of the 4 to be in the next tier up (hence the possibly).

Ah, I got you now. :)

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Evilyoshi's list looks pretty accurate to me.

Yep, not far off. If anything I think it's harsh to lump Poland in the trough of manure alongside Ireland. There wasn't a more athletic side in the tournament than the Poles, and I thought the biggest thing which held them back was Smuda's overly cautious approach. Had he given Lewandowski anything approaching some credible support through the middle then I think Poland could have easily qualified from that group, possibly even as winners. They were much better defensively than Ireland as well, Woj's howler excepted, although it has to be said that they didn't really face attacks of the same calibre as the Irish.

For me, if any team deserved to be dismissed as total rubbish it was Greece. Yes they managed to eek out a win and qualify, but they looked like a 'nothing' side in every game they played. No inspiration, no guile, no athleticism, no industry. The kindest thing I can think to say about them is that the young centre-half they were forced to play looked like he'll become a fantastic player.

So swap Poland and Greece around and Evil's list is very close to my own.

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damn that's a bugger. Had England flukely beat Italy on penalties. They would have had the chance to play possibly Portugal in a 3rd place playoff.

There's no 3rd place play off in the Euros

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Did mine as exact numbering so obv could change after the next 3 games :D, Based on how good I think they are not how they did in this (although that ofc does influence it)

-----------Tier 1

1. Germany

2. Spain

-----------Tier 2

3. Portugal

4. Italy

5. Holland

-----------Tier 3

6. Croatia

7. Russia

8. France

9. England

----------Tier 4

10. Denmark

11. Czech Republic

12. Ukraine

13. Sweden

14. Greece

----------Tier 5

15. Poland

16. Ireland

Massively subjective ofc, feel free to criticize like "rofl Holland tier 2" etc

Pretty much spot on. I'd put Holland 3rd despite their poor performance in this Euro, though, borderline tier 1.

EDIT: Spain probably still in front of Germany. Didn't notice this initially.

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Personally I'd bump Holland down to tier 3 or maybe even 4.

Come on :)

World Cup finalists and consistently one of the best teams in qualifying over the past decade. 3 poor showings do not change this.

Borderline tier 1 and ranked 3rd.

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If we're not limiting to just the countries that qualified for Euro 2012 - I'd stick Turkey in Tier 3 and I'm expecting a lot from Belgium as well. Pretty decent that list by Evilyoshi if you ask me.

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Holland aren't better than England.

I would say Holland are better. Not just judging from the 2-3 this year. I'd say Holland would win 5 out of 10 on any given Sunday.

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Did mine as exact numbering so obv could change after the next 3 games :D, Based on how good I think they are not how they did in this (although that ofc does influence it)

-----------Tier 1

1. Germany

2. Spain

-----------Tier 2

3. Portugal

4. Italy

5. Holland

-----------Tier 3

6. Croatia

7. Russia

8. France

9. England

----------Tier 4

10. Denmark

11. Czech Republic

12. Ukraine

13. Sweden

14. Greece

----------Tier 5

15. Poland

16. Ireland

Massively subjective ofc, feel free to criticize like "rofl Holland tier 2" etc

Pretty much this :thup:

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Probably down to having a manager with a clue, yes. But the players are about the same on ability, if not, Englands better.

How many managers have you had that didn't make it work then??? Hoddle, Keegan, Eriksson, McClaren, Capello, Hodgson - all clueless then? It's not about the manager - it's the lack of certain traits and skills that English players in general still seem to miss.

I would go for the Dutch side looking at individuals but more importantly the overall team play and the personal way of playing.

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Why are Hollands players better? Their keeper nor back four would get in to Englands. And I'd say it's about 50/50 on what players you'd choose for the midfield and up front. There's only Sneijder, Robben and Van Persie who are absolute guarantees.

Hart's a good goalkeeper. But Stekelenburg, Vorm and Krul are easily better than all other English goalkeepers. It's pretty equal but probably edging towards Holland if you look at each and every position individually. Albeit close, but it's not just the players - it's the team as a whole.

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Dutch players aren't as good as you think, and the England players aren't as bad as everyone thinks. The teams are basically the same talent wise. I also don't think you should be in the same bracket as Portugal and Italy. Especially after this tournament.

edit: Going off evilyoshis table. You're in the same bracket as England; tier 3

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I see where Eviloshi and sciag come from: ranking teams by their talent. So Russia you equate with similar level of talent as England. Whereas Holland even though they did rubbish, their talent is around a tier 2.

I suppose in some ways some teams can be part of different tiers in different compartments. Eg that England may have been a tier above Russia in terms of defenders, but in terms of midfield are maybe of equal or below tier. Simarly for Holland- above tier for midfielders and attack but in terms of defenders..

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Did mine as exact numbering so obv could change after the next 3 games :D, Based on how good I think they are not how they did in this (although that ofc does influence it)

-----------Tier 1

1. Germany

2. Spain

-----------Tier 2

3. Portugal

4. Italy

5. Holland

-----------Tier 3

6. Croatia

7. Russia

8. France

9. England

----------Tier 4

10. Denmark

11. Czech Republic

12. Ukraine

13. Sweden

14. Greece

----------Tier 5

15. Poland

16. Ireland

Massively subjective ofc, feel free to criticize like "rofl Holland tier 2" etc

Pretty much agree with this, although I'd put France into tier 2 tbh

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I essentially agree with Evilyoshi's ranking, but will do this slightly different and divide things by two different rankings, because one thing is current form including team spirit, another actual talent and ability available to choose from.

On how impressed I have been by their performance this tournament:

1. Germany

2. Spain

----

3. Portugal

4. Italy

----

5. Croatia

6. France

7. England

8. Russia

9. Holland

10. Denmark

----

11. Sweden

12. Greece

13. Czech Republic

14. Ukraine

15. Poland

16. Ireland

Probably some picks that most people won't agree with, for example Holland who are coming home with 3 defeats and had no team spirit, but still given all their issues were very unfortunate in my opinion, their level of performance skewed by a very difficult group and a clearly unfair result vs Denmark. I also may be placing Russia higher than what everyone else is thinking, much higher than teams who qualified ahead of them in their group, but their first match was sensational and again were highly unfortunate to be knocked out.

Notice that the clearly best 4 teams made the semis which is remarkable, that pretty much never happens.

On talent available:

1. Spain

2. Germany

3. Holland

---

4. France

5. Portugal

6. Italy

---

7. England

8. Russia

9. Croatia

10. Denmark

11. Sweden

12. Poland

---

13. Ukraine

14. Czech Republic

15. Greece

16. Ireland

So overall I would say England performed to their level. Rather solid at the back, an underperforming star in Rooney, some other interesting but inconsistent/unfinished talents upfront (ex Young, Walcott, Welbeck). England can go a little further and reach a semi-final with some luck, but do not have enough ability, particularly in the midfield, to be anywhere the current Spanish, German and Dutch generations.

Holland and France playing nowhere near their potential as everyone knows, Poland disappointing quite a bit too particularly given home advantage. Portugal are slightly overperforming to my delight, we do have some talents but the team is really very well drilled to extract the maximum from them. Other overperformers would be Greece (great work by Fernando Santos there), and Croatia who were unlucky to have a difficult group. I don't think Croatia are that good in talent actually, other than a world class Modric they only have a couple good players like Srna and Mandzukic.

Italy are doing better than they should too, think they've got one of their worst forward lines in ages given Cassano and di Natale for all their talent are unable to play full matches, and the defenders are nowhere near the level of the Cannavaros, Maldinis, Baresis of the past. Quality midfield though, that's making the difference.

Russia were well set to overperform too with a superbly gelled attack aided by club connections, but complacency and poor defending let them down.

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Where would England rank among all the nations in the world? Would they be top 10?

Taking Evilyoshi's list as a basis, I'd say that of the non-European teams only Uruguay and Brazil are ahead of England (and not even by all that much), Argentina roughly equal. Also, rather than Russia > France > England, as Evilyoshi has it, I'd say Russia = France = England {= Argentina). So all in all, yeah, I think England would rank 9th or 10th.

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Argentina on talent are probably up there with the very best, but their organization has been consistently shocking, I would agree that handicap drops them to pretty much same level as England.

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I would say Holland are better. Not just judging from the 2-3 this year. I'd say Holland would win 5 out of 10 on any given Sunday.

I'd say Holland are more talented because of their attackers but were poorly set up, England at least had a team defending together. They're hard to place, reached a WC final then were quite bad in the group stages at Euros.

I think the semi finalists represent the quality of this tournament, and England are probably well placed alongside the likes of France in that tier 3 by evilyoshi.

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