Official Euro 2012 - The Spanish Tactic & Team Guide

[RedBones]

This might shock some people(Arsenal fans especially) but Fabregas is blaming the pitch for todays result.

To be fair to him, I was saying to the people I was watching the game with that the grass looked very long. Whether that's what Fab was referring to I don't know, but either way it would have hindered their passing game by slowing the ball down too much maybe?

[Cleon]

To be fair to him, I was saying to the people I was watching the game with that the grass looked very long. Whether that's what Fab was referring to I don't know, but either way it would have hindered their passing game by slowing the ball down too much maybe?

The passing stats from the game and the amount of possession they had suggest what Fab was saying is total bollocks.

[Ugo]

Cannot agree with your statement Cleon, the grass did not allow the ball to "run" properly.

Having said that, if the grass is not in good condition, I cannot understand why Del Bosque tried to introduce such a narrow formation of players that need to pass the ball around, it was a huge mistake.

Spain was:

a) too narrow.

b) nobody making forward runs.

Italy played very well, and Prandelli won the tactical battle by a mile.

[Cleon]

Cannot agree with your statement Cleon, the grass did not allow the ball to "run" properly.

Having said that, if the grass is not in good condition, I cannot understand why Del Bosque tried to introduce such a narrow formation of players that need to pass the ball around, it was a huge mistake.

Spain was:

a) too narrow.

b) nobody making forward runs.

Italy played very well, and Prandelli won the tactical battle by a mile.

The passing stats don't lie. Spain played as many passes as they normally do. If the grass was to long then it wouldn't have worked like that and they'd be less. The ball ran fine for Fab to get his goal.

Go back and look at the how the ball ran for Torres when he came on, it was fine the ball was moving when passed fine.

I agree with your other points thoug, no natural width at all.

[Guest]

As has been pointed out, Spain's tactics were not suitable, Italy played well and Torres took up where he left off in 2010 and this season. Fabregas has a mantra where he pins things on negative tactics or the playing surface and it does an injustice to his team-mates to suggest the Spanish players are a bunch of delicate hot-house orchids who have to have perfect conditions to play their game.

[jimbobBRFC]

When the game first kicked off I did think to myself the grass does look a little bit off, i.e not perfect conditions BUT I think it is a massive excuse for them failing to win the game. Arsenal have always managed to play good passing football on most English grounds, and there are some very bad English grounds. I think it is the SPanish not accepting they were not at their best.

Grass length aside how do people actually think the formation was set up? BBC coverage showed it as a flat 4-3-3 but I dont agree. Obviously the formation is very free roaming and everyone ends up everywhere with their movement but I think it was more of a 4-1-2-3. With Busquets sitting a little deeper Xavi and Alonso pressing on a little bit then the front three very narrow. Once Navas came on and provided some real width it was a much better system. Fabregas was the false 9 operating almost as a striker, Torres came on and provided that real focal point to the attack.

--------GK--------

-DR--DC-DC--DL-

--------DM-------

----MC---MC----

-AMC-AMC-AMC-

Once Navas arrived the AMC became an AML and Torres made the AMC a Striker. How do people think that would look in FM?

GK: Sweeper Keepr Attack

DL/R: Wing Backs Support

DM: Anchor Man Defend

MCL: Deep Lying Playmaker (Alonso)

MCR: Advanced Playmaker (Xavi)

AMCL: Attacking Mid Support

AMC: Trequarista Attack

AMCR Attacking Mid Support

After Subs

AML: Winger Attack (Navas)

ST: Advanced Foward attack (Torres)

Thats how I'd go in FM, what do people think? How do you reckon playing 3 Trequarista's up front would change things, would certainly give the movement

[Cleon]

If you was to do Spains formation from the opening game then it would be a 4213. Because Alonso and Busquests played side by side just inside their own half juding from the stats and heat maps I've seen with Xavi slightly more advanced.

[jimbobBRFC]

If you was to do Spains formation from the opening game then it would be a 4213. Because Alonso and Busquests played side by side just inside their own half juding from the stats and heat maps I've seen with Xavi slightly more advanced.

Where abouts have you seen the heat maps Cleon? wouldnt mind having a look at em myself. Really am interested in this formation.

[Cleon]

Opta and Squawka (beta). I think the New York Times had them too on their site

[jimbobBRFC]

Opta and Squawka (beta). I think the New York Times had them too on their site

Thanks

Do you have to sign up and pay for Opta to access the stats?

[Cleon]

Thanks

Do you have to sign up and pay for Opta to access the stats?

Yeah

[Atropa]

If you have an iDevice, there is an app for it. The fourfourtwo app, is genuinly great, imho.

[jimbobBRFC]

Yeah I was looking at that yesterday. Just got rid of my iphone though

[kevin3]

Whoscored.com uses opta stats, I think :confused:

[Cleon]

Whoscored.com uses opta stats, I think :confused:

Whoscored are good but get the initial shapes wrong from what I can see

[kevin3]

Whoscored are good but get the initial shapes wrong from what I can see

But they do show average player positions.

[Ventura116]

Hi guys

I am looking for the best team of trainers to Spain ....Help me ...

[Mr_Mou]

While it may not be the classiest move to criticize a world class manager on my 1st post (been reading for a while, great forum ) I think Spain were really lucky to get out of the group stage despite racking up seven points and del Bosque did little better tactically than poor van Marwijk who gets all the stick now (even though he certainly didn't do a good job). Spain only came through because of their superb individuals who also have a great understanding between them as all but three players of today's starting XI play for Real or Barca, a cohesion Holland simply didn't have, but imho del Bosque needs to make instant changes or Spain won't go far. Italy and Croatia did really well against them and showed future opponents how to shut up shop against Spain effectively.

What genuinely baffles me is that del Bosque seems to be reluctant to see Xavi and Xabi Alonso just shouldn't play together. While they are both great players, they simply are too similar. In my opinion, when playing with a 4-3-3 one of the central midfielders should take up a higher position than the other and also "run from deep", to speak in FM language. One of them should simply be getting into the "creative positons" near and in the box while the other would focus on the build-play and transition phases. The way I see it, this is what happens at Barca - whether it's Xavi and Iniesta or Xavi and Fabregas. With Xavi and Xabi Alonso it's simply not going to happen as both like to stay deep and spread passes but in reality they just seem to be eating up each other's space. And, as I see Xavi as the more skilled player of the two (and I'm sure I'm not the only one), Alonso should be axed and replaced with either Iniesta or Fabregas.

His attempts to instill a false-nine are also nothing short of a mystery to me. In today's match, he took off Torres after 61 minutes to bring in Jesus Navas. With no real striker on the pitch, he is basically relying on vertical runs from midfielders, isn't he? But who should take up the central attacking position? Silva seemed to be the false nine, but there was simply no guy who looked a goal threat. Navas is a classic winger aiming to give the side width, Xavi and Xabi Alonso would never stray that far forward, only one was Iniesta, but he really isn't that comfortable running straight at the goal as well (plays more like an AP-support or IF-support to me).

Alright, I may be exaggerating here, as del Bosque brought on Fabregas for Silva only 12 minutes later which made at least a little bit of sense as I'd consider Fabregas a little bit more of an active goal threat, but there was still no guy who looked like really creating a chance.

I actually considered del Bosque only wasting time as the draw obviously was enough to see Spain through, but I don't see this making much sense either because I simply refuse to believe Spain would only look to park the bus for 30 minutes. I know some of you may be thinking I'm insane right now (good basis to build on ) but for me this is nothing else. Spain removed their only goal threat and looked like they were content to just passing the ball in circles in midfield, without any decisive moves towards the Croatian goal. This is defensive football for me, even if Spain did play with a high defensive line and far away from their own goal.

It was the same in Spain's first game against Italy. If I recall correctly, in the first half Silva and Fabregas took turns on the "striker" position (although Spain's formation is really more of a 4-6-0). I thought it made some sense with Silva doing that as Fabregas likes to move from deep and also occasionally appears in the opposition's penalty, but it didn't work that well as Silva simply doesn't seem to be used to such a central position, although eventually the goal came from a Silva-Fab-combination. But please tell me what kind of sense does it make with Fabregas being in the what I suppose is a false-nine-position? Am I really that off with my rating that Silva is way more a creator than a finisher? Do Spain actually try to play the false nine and if so, how are they thinking of getting it to work? I don't want to appear annoying, but this honestly is beyond me. Del Bosque is one of the most successful managers in the world and I also thought he is one of the best, but I simply don't understand what he's doing there and it isn't successful as well. Croatia were the better side tonight, Italy were the better side for at least some 60 minutes. At least, they were definitely more dangerous if you don't like the word 'better'.

For me, Spain needs two things: More width - Arbeloa is too passive for my liking, at least in a more or less wingerless formation (as both wide men, Iniesta and Silva, frequently cut inside and thus aren't adding much width to Spain's play) - and an out-and-out-striker. To be honest, I always thought that for the tactic of a supporting striker who often looks to bring others into play, you need a great level of a understanding and communication and that is difficult to achieve as a national squad. That being said, Germans more or less got it to work with Klose being a really selfless striker, but then again, he's been used in that position and role for a longer period of time now while I've never seen Fabregas or Silva really doing that for Spain. Maybe they did it in the odd friendly, but for me they simply don't look comfortable there.

To generate width, the easiest way seems to be playing with wingers. However, I don't rate Jesus Navas at all and, to be honest, I think his good performances so far are a sign of how much the squad struggles for width when a rather mediocre player has such a big impact on the team. Some of you will probably disagree with this, but this is life. I don't understand why Pedro isn't brought on - yes, he's not had the greatest of season but he can do the job of a Winger as well as the one of an Inside Forward. Has he been injured?

Apart from Navas and Pedro, I don't see many other wingers in the squad. I'd consider Mata and Santi more of playmakers than real wingers and I'm pretty sure both would cut inside a lot, just like Iniesta, clogging up the centre of the pitch.

So, my solution would be to push Ramos right. With Alba on the left, you have two attacking full-backs who will get forward. I think Alba has been a bit too cautious as well so far, he can do more offensively, despite him being the more active full-back compared to Arbeloa. To compensate Ramos I'd go with Javi Martinez as a centre-back. While I know this is not his natural position, he's played there a big part of the season for Bilbao (if not the whole season?!) and, playing under Bielsa, he should also be well used to the extremly high defensive line Spain love to employ. Up front, I'd love to see Llorente. Not sure he would fit into the style of play but I love him as a play and he would also be a guy that can convert the occasional cross of Ramos or Alba, thus bringing a new possibility of goalscoring in Spain's attack. Right now, their plan simply seems to be: Clog the centre and carry the ball into the net. I don't think they'll win it with this approach.

The Madridistas would probably be pretty mad with Alonso and Arbeloa kicked out, but while I prefer Real myself, they simply don't fit into the team right now in my opinion. So, my XI:

Casillas, Sergio Ramos, Pique, Javi Martinez, Jordi Alba, Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Silva, Mata, Llorente.

Almost forgot who I'd replace Alonso with - to be honest I've always prefered Iniesta in a central position pairing up with Xavi, so I'd bring Mata in on the left and take Iniesta back to the CM position. However, I also think playing Fab in the offensive CM role and Iniesta out wide would work.

Feedback appreciated

[kevin3]

That's a great first post and I agree with your suggestions

Spain removed their only goal threat and looked like they were content to just passing the ball in circles in midfield, without any decisive moves towards the Croatian goal. This is defensive football for me, even if Spain did play with a high defensive line and far away from their own goal.

I agree with this and some people fail to realize that Spain actually play a defensive style of football when in possession. Yes, they move the ball about brilliantly but, for most of the time, it’s in front of the opposition defence without any real cut and thrust action. I think that some people judge how defensive a team is by how often they press and close down the opposition but, for me, that's not entirely true. For teams that sit deep and stand off when out of possession and then counter ruthlessly is, for me, just as attacking as Spain's tika-taka approach. It may be a totally opposite approach, but it carries just as much of an attacking threat when in possession, if not more.

With opposition teams’ content to let Spain have the ball, I don't see the need to pack as many midfielders as possible on to the same pitch. Since Euro 2008, Spain has taken their tika-taka approach to an extreme. Compare Spain's starting line-up for the Euro 2008 final that consisted of Senna, Xavi, Iniesta, Silva, Villa and Torres with their opening game of Euro 2012 that consisted of Busquets, Xabi Alonso, Xavi, Iniesta, Silva and Fabregas. Their style at Euro 2008 was more attacking and better to watch but since then it has been all about retaining possession as much as possible and to tire out the opposition. If I were to set-up Spain in FM, I'd go with a very fluid, counter philosophy as a starting strategy with less creative-freedom and various touchline shouts to emulate their tika-taka approach.

Spain are going to dominate possession in every game they play, so sacrificing one of their midfielders for a more direct goal-threat makes sense to me. It's no surprise that Spain score most of their goals in the second half of games, after they have tired out the opposition and they then opt for more attacking, direct options from the bench.