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Total Football: Tic-Tac Magick (The return: Part 2)


Which tactic do you prefer?  

109 members have voted

  1. 1. Which tactic do you prefer?

    • Original (17/01/2012)
      23
    • Tweaked (23/01/2012)
      10
    • New (26/01/2012)
      77


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Good to hear regarding the possession :thup: I'm guessing the midfield roles are the same but now MCL in old version been moved to AMC, MC in old version moved to MCL and MCR unchanged. Is the MCL (old MC) still a defensive minded player in this one yeah?

Spot on. Yeah, I still play a defensive minded player at MCL, but his Through Balls are now set to Mixed - all players now have a minimum of Mixed Through Balls (except GK), with the MCR and AMC on Through Balls Often.

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ruudvanwarren: Match Prep is set to Very High until fluid in all areas. I then reduce it to High with no specific area to train. I'm not really sure about the effects of the Match Prep, but I keep it on high as the tactic is quite global and relies a lot on team play -- I'm not sure whether this has any logic in FM though.

The Playmaker is the RCM :thup:

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ruudvanwarren: Match Prep is set to Very High until fluid in all areas. I then reduce it to High with no specific area to train. I'm not really sure about the effects of the Match Prep, but I keep it on high as the tactic is quite global and relies a lot on team play -- I'm not sure whether this has any logic in FM though.

The semi-official word on this is that workload only makes you learn tactics slower or faster, but have no effect on gameplay. Special focus on attacking movement, defensive positioning, attacking and defendind set pieces gives you bonuses in these categories for the next match. And teamwork helps your team gel quicker.

So what I always do is workload very high until tactics are fluid, then very low. And special focus on teamwork until the team is reasonably gelled, then normally attacking movement or defensive positioning, depending on the strength of my team and of the opposition.

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The semi-official word on this is that workload only makes you learn tactics slower or faster, but have no effect on gameplay. Special focus on attacking movement, defensive positioning, attacking and defendind set pieces gives you bonuses in these categories for the next match. And teamwork helps your team gel quicker.

So what I always do is workload very high until tactics are fluid, then very low. And special focus on teamwork until the team is reasonably gelled, then normally attacking movement or defensive positioning, depending on the strength of my team and of the opposition.

Thanks for the information. So once the tactic is fluid in all areas, you might as well reduce the workload to quite low so that players can focus on their individual training?

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Thanks for the information. So once the tactic is fluid in all areas, you might as well reduce the workload to quite low so that players can focus on their individual training?

Yes, very low is enough to maintain the fluidity levels of the tactics.

This thread helps explain how match preparation works: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/279009-FM2012-Training-And-Match-Prep-Masterclass

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Spot on. Yeah, I still play a defensive minded player at MCL, but his Through Balls are now set to Mixed - all players now have a minimum of Mixed Through Balls (except GK), with the MCR and AMC on Through Balls Often.

What type of player suits the MCL position more then? An all out defensive minded player like Nigel De Jong or someone like Darren Fletcher? Like could I sacrifice high marking and tackling in attributes to about 12-14 and focus more on passing and off the ball? Do you think the player would still perform at MCL?

I'm Man Utd and thinking of using a player like Anderson at MCL against weaker sides at Home. I don't think he is good enough to play MCR or AMC because those require high passing and creativity and Anderson is more of a Box to Box CM.

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Anderson should do well in that role as he's defensively savy but also relatively technical. In my game, I find Mascherano tends to perform much better than Busquets.

Then again, this could be due to Mascherano's natural aggression as he tends to win the majority of tackles he goes in for. If I'm playing at home against weaker teams where they are just sitting back, I'll put Fabregas in that role as this gives me another creative dimension without having to alter tactical instructions.

That's why I like having high amounts of Creative Freedom with top players, as they have more of a chance to influence match events. High Creative Freedom also means Player Preferred Moves become even more important. Now that I'm happy with this tactic, I'm going to invest more time training PPMs, especially for the younger players.

My problem is still with Teamtalks. I haven't yet figured these out. I pretty much destoryed the morale of half the team and isolated Pique and Villa with a dodgy teamtalk at the end of a match - I said we were lucky and had to do better due to us creating lots of chances but still only managing a 1-0 win. This destroyed Villa's match performances and motivation for the next few games (looks uninterested). Once I've found a way of dealing with these then I'm hoping to eradicate motivation and morale problems :p

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Heres what I do and it usually works extremely well:

Before the match, Assertive - "For the fans" or if clear favorites "I expect a win" and Assertive "I have faith" for Defense, Midfield, Strikers.

At halftime, if you're behind or even, Assertive "I'm unsatisfied with your performance", if leading with 1 goal Assertive "Don't get complacent", if ahead with 2 goals plus just say nothing at all.

After the match, if you've won Assertive "Well done guys", if draw or lose Assertive "I'm unsatisfied with your performance".

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I am finding that using all 3 tactics work well for. Playing as Liverpool. No signings so same squad (lacks a bit of quality)

The AM tactic is creating more CC'c but found myself getting ripped apart by Wigan. Got the win just!!!!

I find that by using a combination of all 3 works well.

AM - When playing lower teams, need a goal

Tweaked - Normal and after leading, the counter works well

Normal - To see out games

But excellent tactics Its good to see football being played as it should - Pass and move.

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Heres what I do and it usually works extremely well:

Before the match, Assertive - "For the fans" or if clear favorites "I expect a win" and Assertive "I have faith" for Defense, Midfield, Strikers.

At halftime, if you're behind or even, Assertive "I'm unsatisfied with your performance", if leading with 1 goal Assertive "Don't get complacent", if ahead with 2 goals plus just say nothing at all.

After the match, if you've won Assertive "Well done guys", if draw or lose Assertive "I'm unsatisfied with your performance".

Do you vary these if your playing at Home or Away? Also, do you know if the individual team talks override the global team talks? Thanks for the advice.

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I am finding that using all 3 tactics work well for. Playing as Liverpool. No signings so same squad (lacks a bit of quality)

The AM tactic is creating more CC'c but found myself getting ripped apart by Wigan. Got the win just!!!!

I find that by using a combination of all 3 works well.

AM - When playing lower teams, need a goal

Tweaked - Normal and after leading, the counter works well

Normal - To see out games

But excellent tactics Its good to see football being played as it should - Pass and move.

I agree with you. The ME has evolved a lot over the years and I don't think it's necessarily possible to just stick with one 'Plug and Play' tactic. The AI appears to be able to cope with more situations now, which is a step further towards realism. There's no doubt that you can still overacheive compared to the AI as we aren't limited/restricted to set scenarios. But I definitely agree that altering your approach in games is the best option.

SI has given us a clue with this by allowing us to train 3 tactics - Defensive, neutral and attacking, maybe? Or maybe an alteration of formation, whilst maintaining the same style of play.

I think applying the defensive, neutral and attacking philosophy to the tactics I've created here, we get the following:

Defensive: Tweaked

Neutral: None

Attacking: New Tactic

I think the next step is to create a more neutral tactic so that we have a set of three. :thup:

Maybe the formation can change with the different mentality options:

Defensive: 4-1-2-2WING-1

Neutral: 4-3-2WING-1

Attack: 4-2-3(2WING)-1

Allows for the same players to play, but just in slightly different positions.

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Do you vary these if your playing at Home or Away? Also, do you know if the individual team talks override the global team talks? Thanks for the advice.

I tend to use "I expect a win" more often when playing home as clear favorites, that's all. The individual team talks can override the effect of the global team talks, this only matters though when a player is responding negatively (e.g. hes looking nervous). Basically what you should get using my method is at least half of your team on green bars looking motivated after using "I have faith" for the three groups. The aim is to keep morale as high as possible with the least risk involved. As you've probably already realized many of the teamtalk options are quite a gamble and usually involve a 50/50 chance of success which is just straight up bad. This is kinda of a "safe route" to avoid too drastic responses from your players.

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Anderson should do well in that role as he's defensively savy but also relatively technical. In my game, I find Mascherano tends to perform much better than Busquets.

Then again, this could be due to Mascherano's natural aggression as he tends to win the majority of tackles he goes in for. If I'm playing at home against weaker teams where they are just sitting back, I'll put Fabregas in that role as this gives me another creative dimension without having to alter tactical instructions.

That's why I like having high amounts of Creative Freedom with top players, as they have more of a chance to influence match events. High Creative Freedom also means Player Preferred Moves become even more important. Now that I'm happy with this tactic, I'm going to invest more time training PPMs, especially for the younger players.

My problem is still with Teamtalks. I haven't yet figured these out. I pretty much destoryed the morale of half the team and isolated Pique and Villa with a dodgy teamtalk at the end of a match - I said we were lucky and had to do better due to us creating lots of chances but still only managing a 1-0 win. This destroyed Villa's match performances and motivation for the next few games (looks uninterested). Once I've found a way of dealing with these then I'm hoping to eradicate motivation and morale problems :p

Good to know.

What kind of PPM's do you like to get your players to learn by position?

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I agree with you. The ME has evolved a lot over the years and I don't think it's necessarily possible to just stick with one 'Plug and Play' tactic. The AI appears to be able to cope with more situations now, which is a step further towards realism. There's no doubt that you can still overacheive compared to the AI as we aren't limited/restricted to set scenarios. But I definitely agree that altering your approach in games is the best option.

SI has given us a clue with this by allowing us to train 3 tactics - Defensive, neutral and attacking, maybe? Or maybe an alteration of formation, whilst maintaining the same style of play.

I think applying the defensive, neutral and attacking philosophy to the tactics I've created here, we get the following:

Defensive: Tweaked

Neutral: None

Attacking: New Tactic

I think the next step is to create a more neutral tactic so that we have a set of three. :thup:

Maybe the formation can change with the different mentality options:

Defensive: 4-1-2-2WING-1

Neutral: 4-3-2WING-1

Attack: 4-2-3(2WING)-1

Allows for the same players to play, but just in slightly different positions.

Hey Magick,

When you mention the Defensive, Neutral and Attacking tactics above, are these you intend to make or ones that are in the OP?

I see 3 download links so not sure which is which.

Regards

Shiraz

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@Shiraz: They are ones which I was thinking of making. But you can use the Tweaked version as a defensive tactic and the new version as an attacking tactic.

I've been playing with a slightly different version and have been having good success with it. I'm just getting frustrated with some of the random events happening in FM currently. For example, we just played Man City in the Semi Final Champ League - 4 of my players injured, 6CCC missed, 15 half chances missed, all players motivated and fired-up, but Man City manage to score with the single chance they have. I've now got to cobble together a team without Messi, Iniesta and Xavi which is depressing.

I'm just on the losing end of variance at the moment :p

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Managed to finish the season unbeaten in the league:

leaguetabled.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Top goalscorers:

1) Messi: 72 goals (56 games) - 44 League

2) Villa: 33 goals (52 games) - 26 League

3) Pedro: 25 goals (59 games) - 18 League

Top assists:

1) Messi: 37 assists (56 games)

2) Villa: 25 assists (52 games)

3) Iniesta: 21 assists (36 games + 18 sub appearances)

playerstatsk.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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Managed to finish the season unbeaten in the league:

leaguetabled.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Top goalscorers:

1) Messi: 72 goals (56 games)

2) Villa: 33 goals (52 games)

3) Pedro: 25 goals (59 games)

Top assists:

1) Messi: 37 assists (56 games)

2) Villa: 25 assists (52 games)

3) Iniesta: 21 assists (36 games + 18 sub appearances)

playerstatsk.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

which version you using?

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I would like to share my Barcelona tactic ..

4-3-3 with 2 CM (Left Playmaker) and 1 DM

Match P... I've used Teamwork til fluid .. then average and none...

I use it with Leverkusen and didn't loose 17 Games ...

sry for my bad engl :D

here the tactic

http://www.file-upload.net/download-4073584/Barcelona_Taktik_possession_passes--Bayer-04-Leverkusen--Apr-2016-.tac.html

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@hsvruled: Nice...I'll have a look later :thup:

Did you base it on the tactics in the opening post, or did you create a completely new one?

I've started building a new squad, getting rid of some redundant players. I've bought two players so far:

1) Otamendi - DC - I'm going to begin involving him this season in cup matches and home matches. I want him to replace Puyol as my first choice DCR next season.

2) Young Mexican striker - I can't remember his name, but he was recommended by my scouts and looks to have decent attributes for his age. I'm going to retrain him in AML, so that he can eventually replace Villa.

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@hsvruled: Nice...I'll have a look later :thup:

2) Young Mexican striker - I can't remember his name, but he was recommended by my scouts and looks to have decent attributes for his age. I'm going to retrain him in AML, so that he can eventually replace Villa.

Erick Torres? and im just going to make them tweaks now.. other than that beautiful tactic

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New One ! But i've looked around for some Barca tactics and it might be a combination of some of those ...

I'm really curious about feedback

I would like to share my Barcelona tactic ..

4-3-3 with 2 CM (Left Playmaker) and 1 DM

Match P... I've used Teamwork til fluid .. then average and none...

I use it with Leverkusen and didn't loose 17 Games ...

sry for my bad engl :D

here the tactic

http://www.file-upload.net/download-4073584/Barcelona_Taktik_possession_passes--Bayer-04-Leverkusen--Apr-2016-.tac.html

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Erick Torres? and im just going to make them tweaks now.. other than that beautiful tactic

Thanks mate. I'll upload the tactic later today (work atm), but I'll quickly list the tweaks I made to the 'New Tactic':

Formation Change

1) Back to the original formation with a flat 3 midfield (MCL, MCC, MCR). Better defensively and offers more passing options for defence. It also covers the flanks a lot better, which is important against the 4-4-2 formations. The MCL naturally drifts forward to support the attack.

Global Sliders

1) Reduced Tempo to 3 clicks

2) Reduced Width to 7 clicks

Individual Settings

1) Removed Roam from Position for the MCC (More defensive midfielder)

2) Removed 'Move into Channels' for the MCL (Player who used to be in the AMC role)

3) MCL and MCR now Zonal Marking --> Tight Marking = No

4) STC Forward Runs = Rarely. The player will receive the ball to feet, then turn and run at the defence -- set your striker to learn "Run With Ball Often" in Preferred Moves (Unless you're playing with Barce, as Messi has all this already). With the roam from position the player will naturally move in behind the defence.

That's all of the things I can think of off the top of my head. I'll release later anyways :thup:

P.S. Don't think it was Torres...I'll look later :p

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Since I have been quite busy lately I have not had the time to update my tactics or create a new one. So, I thought I'd give this tactic a go. Simply put, I am impressed. You've managed to create a tactic that is generally effective, aesthetically pleasing and defensively solid, and most importantly it makes football sense - it doesn't just look to exploit whatever weaknesses this version of the ME might have.

That said, I do have one suggestion that might possibly create more chances (sadly, I simply don't have the time to properly test this myself and provide solid proof, so take it with a pinch of salt). Instead of employing an all around forward that tends to link up play, why not try to play with a "poacher" instead, much like the real Barca have employed Alexis Sanches in some games. The benefit of a player always looking to break the offside trap is that it pushes the opponent's d-line deeper and deeper, providing a lot more space for the AMC and wide forwards, while also being an obvious option for through balls.

A deep lying forward/trequartista/false nine type of striker fits a 4-3-3 system much better, because there is no AMC present so it is beneficial for the striker to drop deeper. With the AMC present however, it might be worth trying to play a poacher instead. This is especially true against sides that play with a high d-line and look to press you, as there is not enough space for the striker to drop deep without him getting in the way of the AMC. Sometimes it migh be worth sacrificing a bit of fluidity for some extra penetration.

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Since I have been quite busy lately I have not had the time to update my tactics or create a new one. So, I thought I'd give this tactic a go. Simply put, I am impressed. You've managed to create a tactic that is generally effective, aesthetically pleasing and defensively solid, and most importantly it makes football sense - it doesn't just look to exploit whatever weaknesses this version of the ME might have.

That said, I do have one suggestion that might possibly create more chances (sadly, I simply don't have the time to properly test this myself and provide solid proof, so take it with a pinch of salt). Instead of employing an all around forward that tends to link up play, why not try to play with a "poacher" instead, much like the real Barca have employed Alexis Sanches in some games. The benefit of a player always looking to break the offside trap is that it pushes the opponent's d-line deeper and deeper, providing a lot more space for the AMC and wide forwards, while also being an obvious option for through balls.

A deep lying forward/trequartista/false nine type of striker fits a 4-3-3 system much better, because there is no AMC present so it is beneficial for the striker to drop deeper. With the AMC present however, it might be worth trying to play a poacher instead. This is especially true against sides that play with a high d-line and look to press you, as there is not enough space for the striker to drop deep without him getting in the way of the AMC. Sometimes it migh be worth sacrificing a bit of fluidity for some extra penetration.

Just wondering what version did you use and how did you go about making the ST a poacher? People were saying the ST was already a poacher type in the current versions?

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Just wondering what version did you use and how did you go about making the ST a poacher? People were saying the ST was already a poacher type in the current versions?

I think I downloaded the latest version if I am not mistaken. The ST still has the roam from position ticked, wich makes him drop deep lots of times, his fwd runs are not set to often, and his only slight mentality gap with the AMC makes them get in the way of each other at times. So, for me, on the pitch, he looks more like a complete or deep lying forward than a true poacher in the mold of Inzaghi. I am not criticising this tactic btw, personaly I love the fluidity it offers and my team create adequate chances each match - I just thought I might make a suggestion to help some of the people who apparently thought they were'nt scoring enough.

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I think I downloaded the latest version if I am not mistaken. The ST still has the roam from position ticked, wich makes him drop deep lots of times, his fwd runs are not set to often, and his only slight mentality gap with the AMC makes them get in the way of each other at times. So, for me, on the pitch, he looks more like a complete or deep lying forward than a true poacher in the mold of Inzaghi. I am not criticising this tactic btw, personaly I love the fluidity it offers and my team create adequate chances each match - I just thought I might make a suggestion to help some of the people who apparently thought they were'nt scoring enough.

So you would untick roam from position, set forward runs to often/mixed and maybe up his mentality?

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So you would untick roam from position, set forward runs to often/mixed and maybe up his mentality?

Perhaps, the most important thing is to make all the players do their respective duties but mentain cohesion in the way the team plays. As I said I really don't have the time at the moment to test this properly, it's just an idea, and I explained in my previous posts why it might work and what it should have to offer (roughly, more penetration at the expense of some fluidity).

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Perhaps, the most important thing is to make all the players do their respective duties but mentain cohesion in the way the team plays. As I said I really don't have the time at the moment to test this properly, it's just an idea, and I explained in my previous posts why it might work and what it should have to offer (roughly, more penetration at the expense of some fluidity).

No problem.

Maybe Magick has some ideas of his own regarding this? We'll see I guess.

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Since I have been quite busy lately I have not had the time to update my tactics or create a new one. So, I thought I'd give this tactic a go. Simply put, I am impressed. You've managed to create a tactic that is generally effective, aesthetically pleasing and defensively solid, and most importantly it makes football sense - it doesn't just look to exploit whatever weaknesses this version of the ME might have.

That said, I do have one suggestion that might possibly create more chances (sadly, I simply don't have the time to properly test this myself and provide solid proof, so take it with a pinch of salt). Instead of employing an all around forward that tends to link up play, why not try to play with a "poacher" instead, much like the real Barca have employed Alexis Sanches in some games. The benefit of a player always looking to break the offside trap is that it pushes the opponent's d-line deeper and deeper, providing a lot more space for the AMC and wide forwards, while also being an obvious option for through balls.

A deep lying forward/trequartista/false nine type of striker fits a 4-3-3 system much better, because there is no AMC present so it is beneficial for the striker to drop deeper. With the AMC present however, it might be worth trying to play a poacher instead. This is especially true against sides that play with a high d-line and look to press you, as there is not enough space for the striker to drop deep without him getting in the way of the AMC. Sometimes it migh be worth sacrificing a bit of fluidity for some extra penetration.

Thanks for the feedback :thup:

I agree with everything you've said. I did put the striker on Mixed Forward Runs, but as you say he was more inclined to drop deep. With the final release I've moved the AMC back to MC as it offers a more solid line of defence and it covers the wing positions more effectively.

The striker is set to Forward Runs Rarely so that he drops deep and plays a Through Ball or holds his position, receives the ball into feet and then dribbles at the defence. My wide players tend to move beyond the striker a lot more in this tactic (which is what I've been trying to achieve for ages :p) and are therefore scoring more goals.

--"...exploit whatever weaknesses this version of the ME might have"--

Haha, I think it's easier to create an "over-powered" tactic than it is to create beautiful football. Not that you'll ever see a Diablo tactic in the newer versions of FM, but it is possible to overpower the Match Engine. I've found that by having a huge mentality split (5 players on defensive [0-6 clicks]/5 players on attack[14-20 clicks]), you can obtain results which out-perform the potential of the team. Would I call it an exploitation or solid tactics? It's hard to say, when you think Benitez tends to follow this approach in real life. I certainly think the ME finds it difficult to cope with this approach, as they can't attack an extremely defensive unit as it leaves them open at the back. The AI can't adopt the same strategy because it doesn't have the option = check mate! I think a 4-1-2-3 formation is best suited to this type of tactic. I've also used one where instead of 3 forwards, 2 were on the wings - trying to create a Mourinho counter 4-5-1 tactic. It works pretty well.

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Thanks mate. I'll upload the tactic later today (work atm), but I'll quickly list the tweaks I made to the 'New Tactic':

Formation Change

1) Back to the original formation with a flat 3 midfield (MCL, MCC, MCR). Better defensively and offers more passing options for defence. It also covers the flanks a lot better, which is important against the 4-4-2 formations. The MCL naturally drifts forward to support the attack.

Global Sliders

1) Reduced Tempo to 3 clicks

2) Reduced Width to 7 clicks

Individual Settings

1) Removed Roam from Position for the MCC (More defensive midfielder)

2) Removed 'Move into Channels' for the MCL (Player who used to be in the AMC role)

3) MCL and MCR now Zonal Marking --> Tight Marking = No

4) STC Forward Runs = Rarely. The player will receive the ball to feet, then turn and run at the defence -- set your striker to learn "Run With Ball Often" in Preferred Moves (Unless you're playing with Barce, as Messi has all this already). With the roam from position the player will naturally move in behind the defence.

That's all of the things I can think of off the top of my head. I'll release later anyways :thup:

P.S. Don't think it was Torres...I'll look later :p

I've asked this before, and never gotten an answer - is there any particular reason you prefer to have the defensive minded midfielder at CM, rather than DM?

He's answered it in the above post mate :)

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I've asked this before, and never gotten an answer - is there any particular reason you prefer to have the defensive minded midfielder at CM, rather than DM?

I prefer having a flat 3 in midfield for two reasons:

1) It acts as a line of defence which closes down higher up the pitch.

2) It covers the flanks more, which is handy when playing against a 4-4-2

:thup:

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