Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: Hang on, I'll get your reading glasses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> What's this got to do with the terrorists taking drugs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: If I was king of the world I'd have all these freakin' opinion poll takers shot WTF kind of use are these numbers, jesus christ. ARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG MORONS MORONS MORONS </div></BLOCKQUOTE> You suscribe to the "relying on wishful thinking" camp? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I subscribe to the "BAN ALL F*CKING OPINION POLLS" camp I mean what the hell??!!! Could they not have asked some cross questions, you know, told us who those 25% are, what's going on with them, etc? TODAY'S NEWS: 25% of Muslims hate Britain, and 9% of Britons prefer RC Cola over Pepsi. Now, feel free to feel informed. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHRRRRR Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: Could they not have asked some cross questions, you know, told us who those 25% are, what's going on with them, etc? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I enjoyed your delivery very much, but I'm having trouble grasping your counter theory. I doubt people expressing those ideas will be happy to see their names in print. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: Could they not have asked some cross questions, you know, told us who those 25% are, what's going on with them, etc? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I enjoyed your delivery very much, but I'm having trouble grasping your counter theory. I doubt people expressing those ideas will be happy to see their names in print. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> /o\ Who says anything about having names in print??? If there are 25% of Muslims who hate Britain, we would like to know what distinguishes those 25% from the other 75, how integrated they are in the society (i.e. are they fluent in English? do they read regular press? are they religious? are they poor? employed? living in mixed areas or virtual ghettos? how long have they lived in england? etc etc etc). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 That wouldn't be PC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Actually the figures are from ICM, who take as good a national cross section as they can get. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranjith Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andrew K: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ranjith: Your comments do not get to the roots of the problem. Israel ought to give back the Palestinains their whole country back. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> And what do you do with the Jews? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> They saty in Israel, but Palestine get their country with their old borders as has been put forward in a number of UN resolutions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: Actually the figures are from ICM, who take as good a national cross section as they can get. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> They might have a good cross section, but what keeps them from asking more informative questions?? My impression is that these pollsters are just out for a quick and profitable turnaround on their data. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 It's ICM, mate. They are fairly well known and respected. Their polls are used as source by the BBC, the national broadsheets and politicians. They are far more about maintaining their reputation than a quick and profitable turnaround. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ranjith: They saty in Israel, but Palestine get their country with their old borders as has been put forward in a number of UN resolutions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Basically, putiing all Israelis under Palestinian rule will solve the worlds ills? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: It's ICM, mate. They are fairly well known and respected. Their polls are used as source by the BBC, the national broadsheets and politicians. They are far more about maintaining their reputation than a quick and profitable turnaround. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Where have I attacked ICM? They are like every other freakin' poll agency, providing absolutely worthless data to the media hungry for a flashy and meaningless number to put up on the screen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 I don't accept polls as gospel, you know. But how else can you get a better guideline? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: I don't accept polls as gospel, you know. But how else can you get a better guideline? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> You are having trouble reading today, aren't you Polls must include cross-variable analysis to be of any meaning, using the kind of variables I had mentioned above (in this case -- level of education, level of cultural integration, religiosity, time in the UK, etc.) Then you might begin to see where the problem lies. Such analysis I'm sure is out there or your sociologists aren't doing their jobs. But polls like the one you quotes are meaningless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 "quoteD" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 I don't doubt ICM have the figures - but it'd be an invasion of privacy and /or impossible to categorise each and every respondent. They use the data they have to arrive at the best they can do for a cross-section. Also, the more you break the poll results down, the more you leave the media which bits they want to pick for presentation to the public. Most of the figures I quoted were never presented to the public by the mainstream media. That's what should be annoying you. If they use statistics from a poll, they should not be afraid to publish the whole damn thing, warts and all. What gives them the right to discard the bits that don't fit their agenda? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: "quoteD" </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Art. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: I don't doubt ICM have the figures - but it'd be an invasion of privacy and /or impossible to categorise each and every respondent. They use the data they have to arrive at the best they can do for a cross-section. Also, the more you break the poll results down, the more you leave the media which bits they want to pick for presentation to the public. Most of the figures I quoted were never presented to the public by the mainstream media. That's what should be annoying you. If they use statistics from a poll, they should not be afraid to publish the whole damn thing, warts and all. What gives them the right to discard the bits that don't fit their agenda? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Look, it is obvious that there's a substantial minority of Muslims who are sympathetic to the aims of Al Qaeda. For those in utter denial, this poll won't be of any use anyway, but I suppose it can't hurt. But for those who want to have even a rudimentory understanding of what kind of people those 20-25% are, this poll is of no use whatsoever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 I can't conceive that I'll ever have even a rudimentory understanding. I'm bloody glad for it. Killing and dying for a few stories from a millenia or so back will, I trust, remain entirely outside the realms of my understanding. I expect they'd have the same trouble comprehending my ideas. As I said before, there's just no point in negotiating as there is no compromise to be reached. Your figures are, I would say, more accurate than the poll. One must always take into account that some people are afraid to voice their viewpoint, even in an anonymous poll. Or did you just copy mine from page 22ish? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: I can't conceive that I'll ever have even a rudimentory understanding. I'm bloody glad for it. Killing and dying for a few stories from a millenia or so back will, I trust, remain entirely outside the realms of my understanding. I expect they'd have the same trouble comprehending my ideas. As I said before, there's just no point in negotiating as there is no compromise to be reached. Your figures are, I would say, more accurate than the poll. One must always take into account that some people are afraid to voice their viewpoint, even in an anonymous poll. Or did you just copy mine from page 22ish? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> They can only be "understood" thru psychotherapy. However, a well-designed sociological survey can perhaps point us in the direction of identifying a subgroup of people sharing similar characteristics who are most likely to turn against society. At the very least, it could steer us away from stupidly viewing a huge group of people as culturally similar simply because of their stated religion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Or alternatively we could just go with my plan of making life difficult for mad beardies in robes without union jack boxers? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 These Leeds fellas were born in Britain, were they not? And one of them was a Jamaican ffs, any more clues as to what his story is btw? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abe Lenstra Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 The thing that annoys me is the way the (British) Media decided to build their coverage of the events on two pillars: First: Act all shocked and surprised that these upstanding members of society could be capable of such a "gruesome" act. Second: Make the Muslim Community just as much a victim of the attacks as anybody else. Especially the first bit is ****ing annoying since people have been warning about the dangers of having a large muslim communïty in your country. "Oh dear, he was such a nice fellow, worked so well with children blah, blah blah" This is the kind of blind naivetivity that make me sometimes almost understand the contempt the Muslims feel for the West. There is well known story that can serve as an illustration of how these people think: Back in the Algerian Independence War a couple of Arab kids were tried for the murder of a French kid. The strange thing was that the Arab kids (two of them) had grown up with the French kid and they had been friends all of their life. But one day, the two Arab kids took the French kid up to a hill near the village where they lived and killed him. So the Procecuter asked the two Arabs why they killed the French kid, especially since he was a friend of theirs. "If you wanted to kill a Frenchman, why didn't you killed somebody that you didn't know? It would make it less personal" The two Arabs were genuinly surprised at this question and replied that they could have never gotten a stranger to trust them enough to go up the hill with them. Don't act like this comes as a shock and take the responsibility for the price society is paying for the Multi Cultural Cuddle-Politics of the past decades. Second: Aparently the situation in Britain is somewhat different from the one in, for instance, Holland. We can only dream of a situation where Muslim Representatives take a united stand against these kind of attacks. On Sept 11, we had our Arabs dancing in the street. If you go into the Muslim areas today, you'll find a wide and open support for the killer of Theo van Gogh. We don't even have a real Muslim representation. In fact, we got more Muslim Organisations then you can shake a stick at, none of which feels the need to speak up against this. And why would they? Their youth have been behaving like the Chavs in Britain X10 for decades without it ever evoking anything from the Arab Community in terms of doing something against it. After all, what our Left Church dictates as being Multi-Culturalism is merely the situation of a State whithin a State. Don't worry, we will get to pay the price aswell here in Holland. We have been suffering for decades already and perhaps the bomb attacks that will hit Holland will be enough to overflow the bucket of resentment that has been building up under the strict Dogmas of our Beloved Left Church Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroPhil Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: I've been looking into polls of UK muslims. Quite concerning, some of the results are. 80% against the attack on Afghanistan 25% supported British muslims fighting for the taleban 68% disagree that the war on terror is not a war on islam 73% see Al Qaeda attacks on the US as unjustified 26% see muslims as already too integrated in British culture </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Linkage? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroPhil Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 And btw, there is a big difference between sympathising with particular group and actually going out and supporting them. I may have sympathised with the views of Sinn Fein and the Republicans in Ireland but that doesn't mean I'm going to go and join the IRA. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 All polls from icmresearch.co.uk The Americans only sympathised with the IRA. Was the money they sent spent on underprivileged catholic kids, you think? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroPhil Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: All polls from icmresearch.co.uk The Americans only sympathised with the IRA. Was the money they sent spent on underprivileged catholic kids, you think? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Ah, but you are assuming the average American has the intelligence to understand what is going on. And if they did fully understand, donating money isn't sympathising its supporting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranjith Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ranjith: They saty in Israel, but Palestine get their country with their old borders as has been put forward in a number of UN resolutions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Basically, putiing all Israelis under Palestinian rule will solve the worlds ills? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> No they will be separate countries. Israel has to co-exist alongside Palestine. The occupation has to stop. Israel has already stolen land through settling, even though they said they were temporary in the 70's. This land grab which has now got authorisation from the US will just keep the conflict going. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BoroPhil: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: I've been looking into polls of UK muslims. Quite concerning, some of the results are. 80% against the attack on Afghanistan 25% supported British muslims fighting for the taleban 68% disagree that the war on terror is not a war on islam 73% see Al Qaeda attacks on the US as unjustified 26% see muslims as already too integrated in British culture </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Linkage? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Read this: http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/review...ll-nov-2001.htm And this: http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/review...ims%20Nov04.asp http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/review...l-june-2002.htm http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2001/muslims.htm http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2002/muslims.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/20/nblame20.xml Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zvonimir Boban Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Did I mention how much I love Abe? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 So Blair's calling for an International Conference to combat Muslim extremism. What are the odds that the Conference will resolve to condemn Israeli oppression of the Palestinians? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroPhil Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: So Blair's calling for an International Conference to combat Muslim extremism. What are the odds that the Conference will resolve to condemn Israeli oppression of the Palestinians? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> We can but hope. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BoroPhil: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: So Blair's calling for an International Conference to combat Muslim extremism. What are the odds that the Conference will resolve to condemn Israeli oppression of the Palestinians? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> We can but hope. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I can just see the headline: International Conference: Zionism at Root of Islamic Extremism Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: "]http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2001/muslims.htm[/url] </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Bravo Moshi. This has me even more concerned though. It seems the better educated and richer the muslim, the more likely he is to support the actions of AQ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 MWAHAHA WHY WAIT FOR THE INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE WHEN YOU CAN JUST HAVE LIVINGSTON GO OFF ON ISRAEL ! <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Livingstone: Likud is like Hamas Herb Keinon, THE JERUSALEM POST Jul. 19, 2005 London Mayor Ken Livingstone, whose city was devastated by Islamic suicide bombings earlier in the month, lashed out at Israel Tuesday, comparing the Likud to Hamas and accusing Israel of "crimes against humanity." At a London press conference, Livingstone, who has a long record of anti-Israeli diatribes, drew a connection between the London blasts and the Middle East. He said Israel had "done horrendous things which border on crimes against humanity in the way they have indiscriminately slaughtered men, women and children in the West Bank and Gaza for decades." Livingstone expressed understanding for the motivations of Palestinian suicide bombers, saying that since the "Palestinians don't have jet fighters, they only have their bodies to use as weapons. In that unfair balance, that's what people use." Livingstone, who in March wrote a piece in The Guardian saying that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was "a war criminal who should be in prison, not in office," this time compared Sharon's party to Hamas. "I think the Israeli hardliners around Likud and Hamas [members] are two sides of the same coin; they need each other to drum up support, they point to the excesses of the other to recruit and I don't make any distinction because I believe the taking of human life is wrong. In particular, when you think of the illegal invasion of Lebanon, the illegal invasion of Egypt and Jordan in the Six Day War, all these exercises of going into Palestinian refugee camps and indiscriminately destroying homes simply because a bomber came from that area," Livingstone said. "I don't believe in an eye for an eye. I don't believe in that punishment." Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev, in response to Livingstone's comments, said, "It is a pity he made no differentiation between murderous terrorists and between those trying to protect innocent civilians against the terrorists." Except for Regev's remark and a similar statement issued from the Israeli Embassy in London, Israel adopted a pointedly low-profile approach to Livingstone's comments, not wanting to give the mayor more importance than officials in Jerusalem said he deserved. "There is no need to start a debate with him," one official said. "Everyone knows the man is an extremist, with problematic positions and problematic attitudes toward Jews." </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Tool. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroPhil Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: MWAHAHA WHY WAIT FOR THE INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE WHEN YOU CAN JUST HAVE LIVINGSTON GO OFF ON ISRAEL ! <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Livingstone: Likud is like Hamas Herb Keinon, THE JERUSALEM POST Jul. 19, 2005 London Mayor Ken Livingstone, whose city was devastated by Islamic suicide bombings earlier in the month, lashed out at Israel Tuesday, comparing the Likud to Hamas and accusing Israel of "crimes against humanity." At a London press conference, Livingstone, who has a long record of anti-Israeli diatribes, drew a connection between the London blasts and the Middle East. He said Israel had "done horrendous things which border on crimes against humanity in the way they have indiscriminately slaughtered men, women and children in the West Bank and Gaza for decades." Livingstone expressed understanding for the motivations of Palestinian suicide bombers, saying that since the "Palestinians don't have jet fighters, they only have their bodies to use as weapons. In that unfair balance, that's what people use." Livingstone, who in March wrote a piece in The Guardian saying that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was "a war criminal who should be in prison, not in office," this time compared Sharon's party to Hamas. "I think the Israeli hardliners around Likud and Hamas [members] are two sides of the same coin; they need each other to drum up support, they point to the excesses of the other to recruit and I don't make any distinction because I believe the taking of human life is wrong. In particular, when you think of the illegal invasion of Lebanon, the illegal invasion of Egypt and Jordan in the Six Day War, all these exercises of going into Palestinian refugee camps and indiscriminately destroying homes simply because a bomber came from that area," Livingstone said. "I don't believe in an eye for an eye. I don't believe in that punishment." Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev, in response to Livingstone's comments, said, "It is a pity he made no differentiation between murderous terrorists and between those trying to protect innocent civilians against the terrorists." Except for Regev's remark and a similar statement issued from the Israeli Embassy in London, Israel adopted a pointedly low-profile approach to Livingstone's comments, not wanting to give the mayor more importance than officials in Jerusalem said he deserved. "There is no need to start a debate with him," one official said. "Everyone knows the man is an extremist, with problematic positions and problematic attitudes toward Jews." </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Good stuff Ken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroPhil Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"There is no need to start a debate with him," one official said. "Everyone knows the man is an extremist, with problematic positions and problematic attitudes toward Jews." </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Wtf? Being against Israel's policies does not = being against Jews. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 And why is it "Good stuff", do tell us? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroPhil Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: And why is it "Good stuff", do tell us? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> The Israelis are as bad as the Palestinians. They are all as bad as each other in fact. Killing civilians with bombs from a jet fighter is no different from killing civilians with a suicide bomb. And Sharon is a war criminal. Fact. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BoroPhil: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: And why is it "Good stuff", do tell us? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> The Israelis are as bad as the Palestinians. They are all as bad as each other in fact. Killing civilians with bombs from a jet fighter is no different from killing civilians with a suicide bomb. And Sharon is a war criminal. Fact. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Blair and Bush and Berlusconi are surely war criminals too then? Let's see Livingston go off on that one. Have a great day mate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 I was most disappointed with the Israeli settler's boring efforts at demonstrating against Sharon. They must be the middle east's crappiest extremists. The settlers really need to start dressing their children in combat gear, burn some flags and demand genocide and death for selected politicians if they want decent media coverage. Dissolving into a bunch of mad infighting splinter groups might help, too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Oh, and Red Ken is a twat of the highest order on this one. He seems to never have picked up on the fact that for years now the loonies have been railing against jews AND christians. And one of the things they seem most unhappy about are perceived crimes we committed up to 80 years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ranjith: No they will be separate countries. Israel has to co-exist alongside Palestine. The occupation has to stop. Israel has already stolen land through settling, even though they said they were temporary in the 70's. This land grab which has now got authorisation from the US will just keep the conflict going. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Erm, had you noticed the Gaza pull out? And which bit does Israel get to keep? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 London mayor says West fueled Islamic radicalism By Andrew Gray Wed Jul 20, 8:53 AM ET LONDON (Reuters) - Western foreign policy has fueled the Islamist radicalism behind the bomb attacks which killed more than 50 people in London, the British capital's mayor Ken Livingstone said on Wednesday. Livingstone, who earned the nickname "Red Ken" for his left-wing views, won widespread praise for a defiant response which helped unite London after the bombings. But he has revived his reputation for courting controversy in recent days. Asked on Wednesday what he thought had motivated the four suspected suicide bombers, Livingstone cited Western policy in the Middle East and early American backing for Osama bin Laden. "A lot of young people see the double standards, they see what happens in (U.S. detention camp) Guantanamo Bay, and they just think that there isn't a just foreign policy," he said. Police say they believe there is a clear link between bin Laden's al Qaeda network and the four British Muslims who blew up three underground trains and a double-decker bus on July 7. "You've just had 80 years of Western intervention into predominantly Arab lands because of a Western need for oil. We've propped up unsavory governments, we've overthrown ones that we didn't consider sympathetic," Livingstone said. "I think the particular problem we have at the moment is that in the 1980s ... the Americans recruited and trained Osama bin Laden, taught him how to kill, to make bombs, and set him off to kill the Russians to drive them out of Afghanistan. "They didn't give any thought to the fact that once he'd done that, he might turn on his creators," he told BBC radio. ANGER OVER IRAQ Prime Minister Tony Blair's government has insisted the bombings have no link to its foreign policy, particularly its decision to invade Iraq alongside the United States. But an opinion poll this week showed two-thirds of Britons see a connection between the Iraq war and the bombings. A top think tank and a leaked intelligence memo have also suggested the war has made Britain more of a target for terrorists. That did not stop the right-wing Daily Telegraph castigating Livingstone, a maverick member of Blair's Labour party who was celebrating London's selection as host of the 2012 Olympics just hours before the bombers struck. Wednesday's edition of the paper featured a picture of the mayor between photographs of two radical Muslim clerics under the headline: "The men who blame Britain." \o/ Wohooo \o/ I guess the "stiff upper lip" is giving way to "I am most terribly sorry, am I in your way?" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCranker Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Intreestingly, some Muslim cleric said a similar thing and now the newspapers are calling for him to be hung, drawn and quartered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa, look at my pert ars Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: Oh, and Red Ken is a twat of the highest order on this one. He seems to never have picked up on the fact that for years now the loonies have been railing against jews AND christians. And one of the things they seem most unhappy about are perceived crimes we committed up to 80 years ago. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> The anti-Christian bit has been in Lebanon, and not with Palestine. I actually knew more Christian Palestinians in Kuwait. A good friend of mine here is a Christian Palestinian. She was head of the Arab Student Organization, and ran numerous anti-Israeli demonstrations at Penn State. Funnily enough, I know more Christian Arabs who are (not supportive, but) less opposed to suicide bombings than Muslim Arabs here in the States. I'm not sure if that's because the Muslims feel they have a stigma against them and have to watch what they say, or if the Christians are feeling left out from all the action. Either way it's interesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
skybluedave Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 They say it was caused by our involvment in Iraq but surely some of the people killed could of been the people protesting against the war on the streets of London a few years back. It's fecked up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker: Intreestingly, some Muslim cleric said a similar thing and now the newspapers are calling for him to be hung, drawn and quartered. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> He lacks Ken's cool, you see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ensign Greco Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 isn't Blair's argument that the UK's role into Iraq had no part into the London Bombs equally lame and stupid as Livingstone's sudden re-implication of the perpetually evil Sharon? Ken is a dear, but on this one he talks out of his arse, especially when one notices what exactly goes on these days in Israel. btw I watched a great documentary last night, I think it must have been a Panorama special, but the greek tv genious thought it wise to cut off the credits, it was british tv for sure, about the london bombs, it followed that guy around with the injured eye and burned face, and it had some interesting footage of a improptu occupation of the Finsbury Park Mosque by young muslims some months ago, where people were talking ON camera, about chopping off the heads of british soldiers. The speaker was a british muslim. Quite interesting. My main question is this: am I the only one getting the impression that the muslim religious leadership in the UK does f*ck all to distance the community from extremist agitators? even now after the events i am under a curious impression that the leaders do not say enough against such acts. a kind of trying to balance something like "it's bad to do it in London but perfectly allright to do it in Iraq, or erm, NYC" kind of argument. Or I am getting a wrong picture because of distance? Do brits feel satisfied that the majority of muslim british is against such acts? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Satan, look at my pert arse!: The anti-Christian bit has been in Lebanon, and not with Palestine. I actually knew more Christian Palestinians in Kuwait. A good friend of mine here is a Christian Palestinian. She was head of the Arab Student Organization, and ran numerous anti-Israeli demonstrations at Penn State. Funnily enough, I know more Christian Arabs who are (not supportive, but) less opposed to suicide bombings than Muslim Arabs here in the States. I'm not sure if that's because the Muslims feel they have a stigma against them and have to watch what they say, or if the Christians are feeling left out from all the action. Either way it's interesting. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Eh? I wasn't on about christians in the middle east, I was on about christians globally - mostly those in the west. You're right, mind. One of my best mates is Hooknose, a christian from Beruit and he was also a vehment anti-israelite and pro-palestinian. I say was, because after 911 he had a bit of a rethink. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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