Sir Bert Preast Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 What the hell is the Egyptian interior minister playing at? The bloody clown. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwig Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 Our local train services have been shut down three times since the attacks becasue of security alerts. Can see this sort of thin going on and on now, but can't understand why so much effort is being put into protecting public transport but not other possible targets (Government Buildings, Shopping Centres, Football Grounds) etc. The extra police presence at our rail stations is a joke, surely just there to provide a presence to make people feel safer. Yesterday was my last day at work and I had a box full of my personal belongings which was quite bulky. I walked straight past the police onto the platform but not one asked to have a look in the box. Maybe if I was browner they would have searched me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snooky Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MattyT: find it odd that people think america went into iraq to "spread freedom and deomcracy" when they have a history of removing elected governments, directly or indirectly, when it suits their business interests to do so (Iran, Guatemala, Chile, Nicaragua). waiting for someone to suggest that no two countries with a mcdonalds will er fight a war against each other. also worth pointing out (to get back to the thread topic?) that the group who claimed responsibility for the london bombings made no mention of western values, wealth, freedom, democracy, or any of the other things George W never tires of telling us the terrorists hate. they said it was punishment for the massacres carried out in iraq and afghanistan (in the name of capitalism). and they lived in leeds, and probably had pretty swish mobile phones thank you very much. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Jihad as I say, not as I do; the Taleban were the only people in Afghanistan with TVs... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neil Purvis: Our local train services have been shut down three times since the attacks becasue of security alerts. Can see this sort of thin going on and on now, but can't understand why so much effort is being put into protecting public transport but not other possible targets (Government Buildings, Shopping Centres, Football Grounds) etc. The extra police presence at our rail stations is a joke, surely just there to provide a presence to make people feel safer. Yesterday was my last day at work and I had a box full of my personal belongings which was quite bulky. I walked straight past the police onto the platform but not one asked to have a look in the box. Maybe if I was browner they would have searched me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Down here we have armed soldiers on the local train. They don't search anyone, and it's only one to a carriage. I think it's so everyone can see that the government just won't stand for this sort of thing. If another Spaz explodes, I suppose it'll be one extra on his scorecard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver_blue Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MattyT: find it odd that people think america went into iraq to "spread freedom and deomcracy" when they have a history of removing elected governments, directly or indirectly, when it suits their business interests to do so (Iran, Guatemala, Chile, Nicaragua). waiting for someone to suggest that no two countries with a mcdonalds will er fight a war against each other. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Find it odd to think that people don't realise the world has changed a bit! That was a cold war strategy (and one that was wrong imo) to set up right wing governments as a buffer against Communism. But it is also why I said the biggest test will be when Iraq wants to elect a government opposed to the USA. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">also worth pointing out (to get back to the thread topic?) that the group who claimed responsibility for the london bombings made no mention of western values, wealth, freedom, democracy, or any of the other things George W never tires of telling us the terrorists hate. they said it was punishment for the massacres carried out in iraq and afghanistan (in the name of capitalism). </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, because it's actually a more amenable argument to say that, it sounds better - it makes the West into the aggressors when, actually, in Al'Quaeda terms who struck the first major blow on 9/11? <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and they lived in leeds, and probably had pretty swish mobile phones thank you very much. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Which misses the point. If the only places Al'Quaeda had to recruit were places like Leeds, then they'd be screwed, because while you might be lucky enough to find a few individuals weak minded enough to get bewitched by an existing movement based on "speaking for Islam", they wouldn't have that kudos if they couldn't claim to be defending poor Muslims elsewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daaaaave Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 since when does robin understand what time it is? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver_blue Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daaaaave: since when does robin understand what time it is? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I had a long think. Actually, that's probably entirely true. I'm interested in politics anyway, so I read, listen, watch, and my opinions change. I was never a "oh, the war is just bad, Bush is just bad", and it's not like I still don't have lots of criticisms, but yeah, I've changed stance to a large degree. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 One of the most important things is to be intelligent enough to change one's opinions as the situations change. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver_blue Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: One of the most important things is to be intelligent enough to change one's opinions as the situations change. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Kind of screws you over if you're a fundamentalist of any kind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 My point exactly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Bacon Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Neil Purvis: Our local train services have been shut down three times since the attacks becasue of security alerts. Can see this sort of thin going on and on now, but can't understand why so much effort is being put into protecting public transport but not other possible targets (Government Buildings, Shopping Centres, Football Grounds) etc. The extra police presence at our rail stations is a joke, surely just there to provide a presence to make people feel safer. Yesterday was my last day at work and I had a box full of my personal belongings which was quite bulky. I walked straight past the police onto the platform but not one asked to have a look in the box. Maybe if I was browner they would have searched me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Typical thing that happens certaining in England after something like this. Security reacts to situations rather than trying to prevent them. If the terrorists attacked a Government building we would see exactly the same security there, yet hardly any at train stations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
super_imps Posted July 16, 2005 Share Posted July 16, 2005 Did anyone see Newsnight the other night? Asian youths saying that muslims are dying in Afghanistan and Iraq so it's hardly unfair for Londoners to die on the tube. Yeah, we hear about suicide bombs like the one today in Baghdad and they hardly register anymore. But who is doing the killing exactly? Yup, it's the same kind of morons who are doing the killing in Iraq, blowing themselves up outside mosques (they're realy going to kill infidels there, aren't they?) killing muslims and often children. What a great world we live in... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranjith Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by silver_blue: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: More money would have made a difference, but I doubt it would have been cost-effective. There are two whole generations of fanatical insurgents there - it'll take some time but it can be done. Have we the patience? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I hope we've got the patience. And long term, yeah, I think it would be cost effective. In terms of increased trade, in terms of increased security. You make the general population richer, happier and freer, and life becomes a damn sight harder for those insurgents. The ultimate test in Iraq I think, is this; what will be our reaction when they democratically elect a government which doesn't like us? Not a government that plans to reduce or remove democracy - we are entitled to act to protect that - but a government that is happy to be democratically elected, but just opposes us in policy terms. You have to let them do that, I wonder if we will. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Your comments do not get to the roots of the problem. Israel ought to give back the Palestinains their whole country back. America, like any country with power will do all it can to keep power. Wars have always been fought over resources, land, oil etc. America will never allow its puppet government to turn against her while there is interest in the region. To think otherwise is naive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 I nearly cried yesterday as I wathced on the telly the funereals of the Hamas activists murdered by the Israeli army. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 Have a read of this. Got to love the irony of Pakistan telling us not to blame other countries for our home grown terrorists. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranjith Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: Have a read of this. Got to love the irony of Pakistan telling us not to blame other countries for our home grown terrorists. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Arguably, Pakistan in recent years have directly been doing much more to deal with actual terrorists than most other countries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 Well they do have rather a lot of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranjith Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: Have a read of this. Got to love the irony of Pakistan telling us not to blame other countries for our home grown terrorists. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> They do have a point. The more that the Muslim community, media and the government focus on other countries being a possible scapegoat, then perhaps these issues will be addressed from within the UK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranjith Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ranjith: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: Have a read of this. Got to love the irony of Pakistan telling us not to blame other countries for our home grown terrorists. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> They do have a point. The more that the Muslim community, media and the government focus on other countries being a possible scapegoat, then perhaps these issues will be addressed from within the UK. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Should have said: The more that the Muslim community, media and the government focus on other countries being a possible scapegoat, then the more that these issues WON'T be addressed enough from within the UK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver_blue Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ranjith: Your comments do not get to the roots of the problem. Israel ought to give back the Palestinains their whole country back. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Right. Not sure where I mentioned Israel and Palestine, but if you're suggesting that that conflict is the reason for Islamic extremist elsewhere I think you're kidding yourself. It's a handy excuse for extremists to use, and a handy recruiting tool, it's not the reason. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">America, like any country with power will do all it can to keep power. Wars have always been fought over resources, land, oil etc. America will never allow its puppet government to turn against her while there is interest in the region. To think otherwise is naive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Sure, because there are no other democracies elsewhere that have differing policies to the US and yet maintain cordial diplomatic relations with them. The point is not about the current government (which you can keep calling puppet, but was democratically elected by Iraqi people, so it's a hell of a lot more representative than Saddam's was), but in future, with the development of democracy in Iraq. As elected governments become more the norm in the country, there'll come a time when an elected government opposes many US/UK policies, and the important thing is that we have to stand back at that point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranjith Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by silver_blue: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ranjith: Your comments do not get to the roots of the problem. Israel ought to give back the Palestinains their whole country back. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Right. Not sure where I mentioned Israel and Palestine, but if you're suggesting that that conflict is the reason for Islamic extremist elsewhere I think you're kidding yourself. It's a handy excuse for extremists to use, and a handy recruiting tool, it's not the reason. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">America, like any country with power will do all it can to keep power. Wars have always been fought over resources, land, oil etc. America will never allow its puppet government to turn against her while there is interest in the region. To think otherwise is naive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Sure, because there are no other democracies elsewhere that have differing policies to the US and yet maintain cordial diplomatic relations with them. The point is not about the current government (which you can keep calling puppet, but was democratically elected by Iraqi people, so it's a hell of a lot more representative than Saddam's was), but in future, with the development of democracy in Iraq. As elected governments become more the norm in the country, there'll come a time when an elected government opposes many US/UK policies, and the important thing is that we have to stand back at that point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> If the West were to become blameless then that would also be handy in deterring people from joining terrorists. The current government was elected by the people. But only certain cadidates were allowed to stand. Those seen by the US as being more extreme were not allowed. This also goes for gagging the media (the US even blew up Al-Jazeera's Baghdad office). It may be democracy, but under strict US terms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver_blue Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ranjith: If the West were to become blameless then that would also be handy in deterring people from joining terrorists. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, we're not perfect. But we're also an easy target for blame - and the only possible target for blame because Islamic extremists can't blame the real culprits - themselves and undemocratic Arab leaders. It's a standard tactic - when things are going wrong, find someone to blame other than yourself. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The current government was elected by the people. But only certain cadidates were allowed to stand. Those seen by the US as being more extreme were not allowed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Worth noting that the Iraqi Communist Party, and fundamental theocrats in the form of Islamic al'Dawa were allowed to run. Really, I think it ended up being a lot more representative and democratic than the US actually wanted it. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This also goes for gagging the media (the US even blew up Al-Jazeera's Baghdad office). </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Al-Jazeera's office is/was near the Information Ministry. Agence-France Press reports of that incident say the plane was firing on the road to the information ministry, and the planning ministry, and surrounding area. Inaccurate, no doubt, a deliberate attack on Al-Jazeera - only in conspiracies. As for the press - well, I'd compare the number of independent newspapers in Iraq today as opposed to the number of independent newspapers in most Arab countries that don't have at least semi-democratic government. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It may be democracy, but under strict US terms. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, there is of course a degree of this. But then it has to be under some terms or it will never happen. The point is that it's very difficult to take democracy away once it's been offered - which means that Iraq is likely to remain democratic long term, after the US and other allies leave, and then it will find it's own path. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCranker Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 Depends what you mean by blameless. You can always be blamed for something irrespective of your actions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranjith Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker: Depends what you mean by blameless. You can always be blamed for something irrespective of your actions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes but what you can be blamed for is different. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCranker Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 Not really. Depends how gullible people are. I get the impression people willing to blow themselves up are a bit gullible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew K Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ranjith: Your comments do not get to the roots of the problem. Israel ought to give back the Palestinains their whole country back. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> And what do you do with the Jews? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daaaaave Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 then the palestinians should give the whole of israel back to the jews for stealing it in the first place this is fun \o/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroPhil Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andrew K: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ranjith: Your comments do not get to the roots of the problem. Israel ought to give back the Palestinains their whole country back. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> And what do you do with the Jews? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> There is room for both. If everyone was comitted to implementing the roadmap, a lot of tension would be relieved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason the Yank Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BoroPhil: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andrew K: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ranjith: Your comments do not get to the roots of the problem. Israel ought to give back the Palestinains their whole country back. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> And what do you do with the Jews? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> There is room for both. If everyone was comitted to implementing the roadmap, a lot of tension would be relieved. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I think that's for both sides to sort out on their own. I'm not sure I like being tied too closely to a country that views Jonathan Pollard as a national hero. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jason the Yank: I think that's for both sides to sort out on their own. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> The final solution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason the Yank Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jason the Yank: I think that's for both sides to sort out on their own. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> The final solution. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Unfortunate choice of terms there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 17, 2005 Share Posted July 17, 2005 Unfortunate for someone, yes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">July 14, 2005 Cover story Are you ready? Tomorrow you will be in Paradise . . . Nasra Hassan What motivates a suicide bomber? Our correspondent talks to a young Muslim who survived his intended 'martyrdom' and describes the terrorists' rigorous training .... In Gaza, S is celebrated as a young man who “gave his life to Allah†and whom Allah “brought back to lifeâ€. ... S had just turned 27. He is slight, and he walked with a limp, the only trace of his near-death. He invited his wife to join us, and he answered my questions without hesitation. I asked him when, and why, he had decided to volunteer for martyrdom. “In the spring of 1993, I began to pester our military leaders to let me do an operation,†he said. “It was around the time of the Oslo accords, and it was quiet, too quiet. I wanted to do an operation that would incite others to do the same. Finally, I was given the green light to leave Gaza for an operation inside Israel.†“How did you feel when you heard that you’d been selected for martyrdom?†I asked. “It’s as if a very high, impenetrable wall separated you from Paradise or Hell,†he said. “Allah has promised one or the other to his creatures. So, by pressing the detonator, you can immediately open the door to Paradise — it is the shortest path to Heaven.†S was one of 11 children in a middle-class family that, in 1948, had been forced to flee from Majdal to a refugee camp in Gaza, during the Arab-Israeli war that started with the creation of the State of Israel. He joined Hamas in his early teens and became a street activist. In 1989, he served two terms in Israeli prisons for intifada activity, including attacks on Israeli soldiers. One of his brothers is serving a life sentence in Israel. I asked S to describe his preparations for the suicide mission. “We were in a constant state of worship,†he said. “We told each other that if the Israelis only knew how joyful we were they would whip us to death! Those were the happiest days of my life.†“What is the attraction of martyrdom?†I asked. “The power of the spirit pulls us upward, while the power of material things pulls us downward,†he said. “Someone bent on martyrdom becomes immune to the material pull. Our planner asked, ‘What if the operation fails?’ We told him, ‘In any case, we get to meet the Prophet and his companions, inshallah.’ “We were floating, swimming, in the feeling that we were about to enter eternity. We had no doubts. We made an oath on the Koran, in the presence of Allah — a pledge not to waver. This jihad pledge is called bayt al-ridwan, after the garden in Paradise that is reserved for the prophets and the martyrs. I know that there are other ways to do jihad. But this one is sweet — the sweetest. All martyrdom operations, if done for Allah ’s sake, hurt less than a gnat’s bite!†S showed me a video that documented the final planning for the operation. In the grainy footage, I saw him and two other young men engaging in a ritualistic dialogue of questions and answers about the glory of martyrdom. S, who was holding a gun, identified himself as a member of al-Qassam, the military wing of Hamas, which is one of two Palestinian Islamist organisations that sponsor suicide bombings. (Islamic Jihad is the other group.) “Tomorrow, we will be martyrs,†he declared, looking straight at the camera. “Only the believers know what this means. I love martyrdom.†The young men and the planner then knelt and placed their right hands on the Koran. The planner said: “Are you ready? Tomorrow, you will be in Paradise.†....eventually, when the people who were observing me had assured themslves of my credentials — an important one was that I am Muslim and from Pakistan — I was allowed to meet members of Hamas and Islamic Jihad who would help me. “We are agreeing to talk to you so that you can explain the Islamic context of these operations,†one man told me. “Even many in the Islamic world do not understand.†From 1996 to 1999, I interviewed nearly 250 people involved in the most militant camps of the Palestinian cause: volunteers who, like S, had been unable to complete their suicide missions, the families of dead bombers, and the men who trained them. None of the suicide bombers — they ranged in age from 18 to 38 — conformed to the typical profile of the suicidal personality. None of them was uneducated, desperately poor, simple-minded, or depressed. Many were middle-class and held paying jobs. Two were the sons of millionaires. They all seemed entirely normal members of their families. They were polite and serious, and in their communities were considered to be model youths. Most were bearded. All were deeply religious. I was told that to be accepted for a suicide mission the volunteers had to be convinced of the religious legitimacy of the acts they were contemplating, as sanctioned by the divinely revealed religion of Islam. Many of these young men had memorised large sections of the Koran and were well versed in the finer points of Islamic law and practice. But their knowledge of Christianity was rooted in the medieval crusades, and they regarded Judaism and Zionism as synonymous. Most of the men I interviewed requested strict anonymity. The majority spoke in Arabic and they all talked matter-of-factly about the bombings, showing an unshakeable conviction in the rightness of their cause and their methods. When I asked them if they had any qualms about killing innocent civilians, they would immediately respond, “The Israelis kill our children and our women. This is war, and innocent people get hurt.†They were not inclined to argue but they were happy to discuss, far into the night, the issues and the purpose of their activities. One condition of the interviews was that, in our discussions, I not refer to their deeds as “suicideâ€, which is forbidden in Islam. Their preferred term is “sacred explosionsâ€. One member of al-Qassam said: “We do not have tanks or rockets, but we have something superior — our exploding Islamic bombs.†My contacts told me that, as a military objective, spreading fear among the Israelis was as important as killing them. Anwar Aziz, an Islamic Jihad member who blew himself up in an ambulance in Gaza, in December 1993, had often told friends: “Battles for Islam are won not through the gun but by striking fear into the enemy’s heart.†Military commanders of Hamas and Islamic Jihad remarked that the human bomb was one of the surest ways of hitting a target. A senior Hamas leader said: “The main thing is to guarantee that a large number of the enemy will be affected. With an explosive belt or bag, the bomber has control over vision, location, and timing.†As today’s weapons of mass destruction go, the human bomb is cheap. A Palestinian security official pointed out that, apart from a willing young man, all that is needed are such items as nails, gunpowder, a battery, a light switch and a short cable, mercury (readily obtainable from thermometers), acetone, and the cost of tailoring a belt wide enough to hold six or eight pockets of explosives. The most expensive item is transportation to a distant Israeli town. The total cost of a typical operation is about US $150 (£85). The sponsoring organisation usually gives between $3,000-$5,000 (£1,700- £2,830) to the bomber’s family. I met an imam affiliated with Hamas, a youthful, bearded graduate of the prestigious al Azhar University in Cairo. He explained that the first drop of blood shed by a martyr during jihad washes away his sins instantaneously. On the Day of Judgment, he will face no reckoning. On the Day of Resurrection, he can intercede for 70 of his nearest and dearest to enter Heaven; and he will have at his disposal 72 houris, the beautiful virgins of Paradise. The imam took pains to explain that the promised bliss is not sensual. There is no shortage of willing recruits for martyrdom. Hamas and Islamic Jihad generally reject those who are under 18, who are the sole wage-earners in their families, or who are married and have family responsibilities. If two brothers ask to join, one is turned away. The planners keep a close eye on the volunteer’s self-discipline, noting whether he can be discreet among friends and observing his piety in the mosque. During the week before the operation, two “assistants†are delegated to stay with the potential martyr at all times. They report any signs of doubt, and if the young man seems to waver, a senior trainer will arrive to bolster his resolve. ... Al-khaliyya al-istishhadiyya, which is often mistranslated as “suicide cell†— its proper translation is “martyrdom cell†— is the basic building block of operations. Generally, each cell consists of a leader and two or three young men. When a candidate is placed in a cell, usually after months, if not years, of religious studies, he is assigned the lofty title of al-shaheed al -hayy, “the living martyrâ€. He is also referred to as “he who is waiting for martyrdomâ€. Each cell is tightly compartmentalised and secret. Cell members do not discuss their affiliation with their friends or family, and even if two of them know each other in normal life, they are not aware of the other’s membership in the same cell. (Only the leader is known to both.) Each cell, which is dissolved after the operation has been completed, is given a name from the Koran or from Islamic history. The young men undergo intensified spiritual exercises, including prayers and recitations of the Koran. Usually, the trainer encourages the candidate to read six particular chapters of the Koran: Baqara, Al Imran, Anfal, Tawba, Rahman, and Asr, which feature such themes as jihad, the birth of the nation of Islam, war, Allah’s favours and the importance of faith. Religious lectures last from two to four hours each day. The living martyr goes on lengthy fasts. He spends much of the night praying. He pays off all his debts, and asks for forgiveness for actual or perceived offences. In the days before the operation, the candidate prepares a will on paper, audiocassette or video, sometimes all three. The video testaments, which are shot against a background of the sponsoring organisation’s banner and slogans, show the living martyr reciting the Koran, posing with guns and bombs, exhorting his comrades to follow his example, and extolling the virtues of jihad. The wills emphasise the voluntary basis of the mission. “This is my free decision, and I urge all of you to follow me,†one young bomber, Muhammad Abu Hashem, said in a recorded testament before blowing himself up, in 1995, in retaliation for the assassination of Fathi Shiqaqi. The young man repeatedly watches the video of himself, as well as the videos of his predecessors. “These videos encourage him to confront death, not fear it,†one trainer told me. “He becomes intimately familiar with what he is about to do. Then he can greet death like an old friend.†Just before the bomber sets out on his final journey, he performs a ritual ablution, puts on clean clothes, and tries to attend at least one communal prayer at a mosque. He says the traditional Islamic prayer that is customary before battle, and he asks Allah to forgive his sins and to bless his mission. He puts a Koran in his left breast pocket, above the heart, and he straps the explosives around his waist or picks up a briefcase or a bag containing the bomb. The planner bids him farewell with the words “May Allah be with you, may Allah give you success so that you achieve Paradise.†The would-be martyr responds, “Inshallah, we will meet in Paradise.†Hours later, as he presses the detonator, he says, “Allahu akbar†— “Allah is great. All praise to Him.†The operation doesn’t end with the explosion and the many deaths. Hamas and Islamic Jihad distribute copies of the martyr’s audiocassette or video to the media and to local organisations as a record of their success and encouragement to other young men. His act becomes the subject of sermons in mosques, and provides material for leaflets, posters, videos, demonstrations, and extensive coverage in the media. Graffiti on walls in the martyr’s neighbourhood praise his heroism. Aspiring martyrs perform mock re-enactments of the operation, using models of exploding cars and buses. The sponsoring organisation distributes cassettes of chants and songs honouring the good soldier. The bomber’s family and the sponsoring organisation celebrate his martyrdom with festivities, as if it were a wedding. Hundreds of guests congregate at the house to offer congratulations. The hosts serve the juices and sweets that the young man specified in his will. Often, the mother will ululate in joy over the honour that Allah has bestowed upon her family. But there is grief, too. I asked the mother of Ribhi Kahlout, a young man in the Gaza Strip, who had blown himself up in November 1995, what she would have done if she had known what her son was planning to do. “I would have taken a cleaver, cut open my heart, and stuffed him deep inside,†she said. “Then I would have sewn it up tight to keep him safe.†# Nasra Hassan works in Vienna. She has compiled a database of more than 200 profiles of Muslim suicide bombers and has just completed a book on the subject. A version of this article originally appeared in The New Yorker </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7-1692606,00.html Fantastic article. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Crack > religion, tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerf Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 That is an excellent article. Clearly what we're dealing with is gross delusion and fanatical ignorance on a grand scale. These people don't stop. You can't appeal or take the diplomatic route because there's no sanity or humanity there. Do they just not realise how f**ked up they are, how plainly ridiculous the things they say are? And don't give me any 'each to their own, it's just their beliefs' rubbish, because there's simply no justifying it on any level. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zvonimir Boban Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: SLAMPA? Boban? Mr. Nice? Am I really driving you into the arms of Al Qaeda? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Hmmmmm, suicide bombing would probably be a little bit too much. I *might* stretch as far as a good old-fashioned headbutt but that's about it, I prefer to let the more ******** folkses lose their lives in the fight against the evil white man Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: Crack > religion, tbh. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> During the Theatre Siege in Moscow, most Chechen terrorists were drugged up pretty good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zvonimir Boban: Hmmmmm, suicide bombing would probably be a little bit too much. I *might* stretch as far as a good old-fashioned headbutt but that's about it, I prefer to let the more ******** folkses lose their lives in the fight against the evil white man </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Clearly a rational thinker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: During the Theatre Siege in Moscow, most Chechen terrorists were drugged up pretty good. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I thought they were on gas? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 That was before the siege. The thinking, iirc, was that the terrorists were pretty dehydrated due to drugs, and thus would be more susceptible to the effects of gas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Linky linky? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Dunno, it's been a long time now... But it was in that great BBC/HBO documentary on the siege IIRC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 I've been looking into polls of UK muslims. Quite concerning, some of the results are. 80% against the attack on Afghanistan 25% supported British muslims fighting for the taleban 68% disagree that the war on terror is not a war on islam 73% see Al Qaeda attacks on the US as unjustified 26% see muslims as already too integrated in British culture Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: Dunno, it's been a long time now... But it was in that great BBC/HBO documentary on the siege IIRC. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Mosh, the gas was an opium derivative. I think it's time for your nap? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: Dunno, it's been a long time now... But it was in that great BBC/HBO documentary on the siege IIRC. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Mosh, the gas was an opium derivative. I think it's time for your nap? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> They took drugs BEFORE or DURING the siege. Or maybe it was only the women. The hostages interviewed afterward, I clearly remember them saying that many of the Chechens appeared drugged. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Erm, no hard news stories. Can I fetch you a nice hot Ovaltine, pops? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 lots of stories on google about this, mostly speculation -- but given that this is russia, what other kind of information would you expect? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: I've been looking into polls of UK muslims. Quite concerning, some of the results are. 80% against the attack on Afghanistan 25% supported British muslims fighting for the taleban 68% disagree that the war on terror is not a war on islam 73% see Al Qaeda attacks on the US as unjustified 26% see muslims as already too integrated in British culture </div></BLOCKQUOTE> If I was king of the world I'd have all these freakin' opinion poll takers shot WTF kind of use are these numbers, jesus christ. ARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG MORONS MORONS MORONS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Hang on, I'll get your reading glasses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: If I was king of the world I'd have all these freakin' opinion poll takers shot WTF kind of use are these numbers, jesus christ. ARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG MORONS MORONS MORONS </div></BLOCKQUOTE> You suscribe to the "relying on wishful thinking" camp? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.