Best formation to counter 4-1-2-2-1/ 4-5-1

[Androlo]

I've been playing FM for years but this is the first time I have resorted to asking the forums opinion. Although I scrape wins and draws against the 4-1-2-2-1 / 4-5-1 (Porto, Barcelona, Lyon) I can never play well against it. Whats the ideal formation to control the game, keep possession and ultimately win convincingly. Thanks in advance.

[Los_Culés]

You can play simple 4-4-2, just give one of your strikers man marking duties to mark opposition's DMC. This way it will be 3 vs. 3 in central midfield when you don't have possession.

[Tyballs]

One fun thing to try is to have an extreme stopper as CB. High mentality, high closing down, RFD and TB mixed.

[Morphiushell]

I played almost a whole season using this formation as Rangers and ended up winning the league but i must admit that come to the end of the season the other teams in the league decided to play the same formation against me and I started to struggle to get those big wins I was obtaining at the start.

In my 2nd season and away from home I am going to experiment playing a 4-4-2 with my two wide players as AMR/L wingers to see if it makes a difference breaking teams down who wont commit against me.

[furiousuk]

Playing the same formation and backing your own players to beat their players is an age-old trick (Sir Alex is a fan) and is really quite effective.

I'm pretty sure that I've read somewhere that the 41221/451 evolved to beat a flat 442 and the popular 4231 evolved as a measure to beat the 41221/451. In any case the 4231 is a great formation for beating this one - your MC's must sit deeper to counter the creative MC's of the opposition whilst you also have a guy to take care of the DM as they can often be the engine room of such a formation. I like to tight mark, close down often and tackle hard the DM and it is often helpful.

Changing your d-line isn't particularly effective, going up high doesn't really cramp this formation too much and has several negatives: 1) the opposing AMR/AML/FC can attack the space in behind, being fed by the midfield/FBs and 2) it makes it easier for the MC's and AMR/L to support the FC. Pushing up might cramp the DM but the FC should still have enough space to hurt you. Conversely, dropping too deep can leave a gaping hole between your CB's and MCs that the opposing attackers can exploit. So, it's a difficult choice.

The 41221/451 is particularly strong through the middle so you have to work out how to attack that space. A 4231 (wide or narrow) can pack that area and make it a tight, technical battle, the same with a 41212 or narrow 4222 or an Italian-style 4312. Wingers (particularly deep wingers or wide midfielders) can have a field day against this formation. If the opposition have CB's poor in the air then definitely look to an aerial bombardment if possible. Similarly, if they have slow CB's then look to play deeper, draw them out, and then fire diagonal balls from the flanks in behind to exploit them there.

I play the 41221/451 and I also employ a tight man-marking system in the middle, any formation that packs the area with attackers (4312, 4231, 41212) AND employs lots of movement (free roles, creative freedom) gives me problems. The formation defends by packing the central area with 5 players (CB,CB,DM,MC,MC) which means that they generally have a spare man to mop up anything in the most crucial area. If you can negate that man advantage then you're on to a winner, but aerially might also be a good option.

[La Grande Inter]

Rigid 4-4-2 and counter

[Klyemann]

A I allways use the 4-1-2-2-1 and I can tell you that I'm having most problems with counterattacking 4-3-1-2 (with 3 MCs).

The way things ussualy play out on the field:

- their full-backs cover my wings

- one of their center backs cover my lone striker

- the MC in the middle covers my MCs

- the other center back helps out if one of my MCs goes forward

- side MCs cover my full-backs when they go forward

- when they get take the ball from me, they send it upfield right away with their AMC and to SCs going agains my two CBs and DM

I don't have to tell you that attacking players are usually faster than defenders, so the frequently outrun my defense and create alot of scoring chances.

And that is why 90% of my defeats come from sides that play 4-3-1-2. And I haven fount a cure for them (yet).

[kakamal]

What is the best formation to play against 4-4-2?. I've managed Leeds United and my team formations are 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 (2CM) and 4-5-1. My team scored 9 and conceded only 1 goal in 5 games against any other formations. But really struggled when facing 4-4-2 teams.. lost to Nott.Forest 1-3 and 2-3 to Barnsley. As you can see, I've conceded 6 goals in 2 games against team that use 4-4-2 formation. Only 1 goal conceded through set pieces the rest from open play. Their RM & LM really give me hard time but when I ordered my full back to mark them, then suddenly their full back take the task of attacking job.

Any help is great... thx in advance.

[Bruce Drundrige]

What is the best formation to play against 4-4-2?. I've managed Leeds United and my team formations are 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 (2CM) and 4-5-1. My team scored 9 and conceded only 1 goal in 5 games against any other formations. But really struggled when facing 4-4-2 teams.. lost to Nott.Forest 1-3 and 2-3 to Barnsley. As you can see, I've conceded 6 goals in 2 games against team that use 4-4-2 formation. Only 1 goal conceded through set pieces the rest from open play. Their RM & LM really give me hard time but when I ordered my full back to mark them, then suddenly their full back take the task of attacking job.

Any help is great... thx in advance.

For your last point about their full-backs, if you're using a 4-2-3-1 you could get your wingers/IFs to man mark their FBs?

[kakamal]

Hmm.. such a good idea. Maybe should try it later. Thx..

[Luketa]

I think that there isn´t a "best" formation. You can defeat 4-1-2-2-1 with more that one formation (4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, 4-3-1-2, etc.). 4-1-2-2-1 or 4-5-1 is a strong formation in some aspects, but very weak in some others. There is a huge gap in between the fullbacks and wingers that is crucial to take advantage. If you play a 4-4-2 formation, the first thing you should notice is that you cannot press high up the pitch because the obvious disadvantage in central midfield, and the fact that you have no AM/R and L to close down heavily oposition fullbacks (as MR and ML use to place themselves more deeper without the ball before they start to close down), leaving more space and time to oposition fullbacks to play. So, defending deeper with a 4-4-2 is a must.

Another cool formation to face a 4-5-1 is to play with 4-2-3-1: The key here is to pull the oposition DMC out of position by telling your AMC to drop deeper, and then using an MC with lot "off the ball" attribute to exploit the space left by the DMC.

Those are only just some ideas of how every tactic has it´s weaknesses and that you can adapt almost every tactic to exploit such weaknesses....

[kakamal]

Thanks Luketa for the tips. Yes the title of this thread is best formation to counter 4-1-2-2-1 & 4-5-1. But in my case, I've struggled when facing 4-4-2. They've got plenty of players in my area and gained possession most of the times.

[LlamaZA]

An interesting read that may shed some light. This is a discussion on how to get the 442 to beat 451/433, there are other ways and formations.

So here's my analysis on the article:

The difference between a 4-4-2 and a 4-5-1 / 4-3-3 is summed up nicely by Sir Alex Ferguson.

“The idea behind the 4-5-1 is that you can control the midfield and keep possession of the ball – that’s always your aim when you use that formation,” he says. “I believe the team that has possession of the ball has more opportunities to win the match. As for the 4-4-2, there is more emphasis in that formation placed on playing the ball forward and usually you use the two traditional wingers.”

This game was the perfect case study – the 4-3-3 dominated possession (70% compared to 30%) but the 4-4-2 was more direct and created more goalscoring chances (13 shots, 9 on target, 3 goals compared to 2, 0, 0)

I think we need to be clear here then what would constitute success. Often we get too bogged down on possession figures while ignoring how our tactic works. (I take Stoke as an example of a team that isn't worried about how much possession they have, so long as they are effective with the little they do have). Thus when we play against 451/433 we need to be clear if we're trying to win the possession game or the effectiveness game (obviously the ideal is to have the most possession and be most effective with it).

So, how did Croatia do it? For the first five minutes, they pressed heavily at the top of the pitch, with both Olic and Mandzukic working tirelessly to close down the centre-backs and the deepest Turkey midfielder, Selcuk Inan. Mandzukic would often drop deep onto Inan to prevent him getting the ball, and then when Croatia won the ball, he’d sprint forward to join Olic whilst Inan would be attracted to the ball.

Initially the goal appears to be to disrupt the centre-backs and DM, as this is where 451/433 starts its possession game. The strikers press the CBs and DM, this would seem to indicate the need for a defensive forward on support (I'd almost be tempted to have a DF(A) to join him, but the partner should be anything but Trequartista or Poacher since they'll have to be part of the defence).

Croatia scored early so the rest appears to be on the basis your opponent is chasing the game, although the theory should still hold.

attacks from the away side were very quick, generally coming down the flanks – Croatia would leave one player in front of the defence, usually Tomislav Dujmovic, but the rest would break forward immediately. Rakitic and Darijo Srna were the key players, able to pick up the ball in space and run at the Turkey full-backs

As usual for a 442 system, the wingers are an integral part of the team - and you're probably looking at 2 Winger (A) with a Ball Winning Midfielder (D) along with a Attacking CM or BTB Mid (I wouldn't use an playmaker as they'll tend to slow the pace down, rather someone who is going to make forward runs and late entries into the box).

Croatia were on top for the first ten minutes, but then Turkey started to make the most of their numerical advantage in the middle, and the passing from the away side was poor. Olic and Mandzukic stopped pressing and instead dropped alongside Inan, making it difficult for Turkey to play out from the back to Inan, and equally difficult for Inan to play the ball forward when he did get possession.

Suddenly we have a change in philosophy up top, the strikers are now both playing deep and not pressing as much, rather just getting in the DM's way. (DF(s) and perhaps a DLF(s) or CF(s).)

Defensively, Croatia did nothing special, defending deep with two banks of four. Turkey had the right idea with the ball, being patient and logical with their passing – trying to drag the Croatian wide midfielders inside to deal with the 3 v 2, then getting their full-backs forward on the overlap.

As has been said in other places, the fullbacks are the key to the 451/433 as they are the only 'free' players, and it is important to note how the 451/433 tries to bring these into play (by dragging your wingers inside). Clearly this would suggest a rigid philosophy and perhaps very low pressing to ensure the players maintain their shape (specifically the 'two banks of four').

Srna started the game very poorly, but went onto become a key player down the right,. He was the best Croatian player at turning defence into attack quickly with direct running, and was also very clever at winning free-kicks

Srna was the key player as a direct running Winger (obviously it wouldn't matter if this was your left or right winger - but it suggests you do need to have a quality wing to cause troubles for the opposition).

In summation,

Bilic showed how to play away from home with a 4-4-2 – he ordered his players to sit deep, then break quickly down the flanks through the wide players, and also paid attention to Turkey’s spare midfielder, Inan, and dropped one or both strikers close to him. The work rate of the front two, the directness of Srna and the discipline of Dujmovic were also vital.

So to put this into FM terms - we have;

A standard 442 with Rigid philosophy and low Pressing. Set counter attack to on and focus passing down flanks. Everything else would appear to be on normal or not specifically relevant and up to personal choice.

On a player specific basis

FB(auto), CB(d), CB(c/s), FB(auto)

W(a), BWM(d), CM(a)/BTB(s), W(a)

DF(s), DLF(s) - perhaps set the DF to man mark on the DM

Hope this helps out.