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Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)


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Hi all: long time lurker, (very) intermittent poster. I have several basic questions on tactics and player positioning

1) Playing players out of natural positions (especially ML vs. AML, MR vs. AMR). The consensus appears to be that it doesn't really matter as long as they have the attributes to perform the tasks required of them (other than reduced decisions). Is this actually confirmed?

2) Following on from that, will the player automatically learn the position over time from playing there or do they have to be trained as well? Is it worthwhile training an AML to ML to get to Natural? Will they ever get to Natural?

3) It also appears that I have been misusing the tactics creator. I only have one tactic and I move the players and change roles based on the players I have available. This appears to be exactly backwards from what I should be doing. What level of change justifies having another tactic created?

Different positions (seems to be yes, create a different tactic)?

Different Roles in same position (not sure)?

Same positions and roles but different mentality (defensive, counter, etc.; also not sure)?

Different fluidity (or whatever it's called now; not in front of FM2015 at the moment) (definitely should be a different tactic moving between rigid, flexible, etc. and probably not a good idea)?

I apologize if these questions have already been answered definitively; I did read quite a bit before posting but I could have missed the exact information that I was looking for.

Thanks!

1) General rule of thumb - if you are going to regularly play someone out of position you are better off retraining him to play there.

2) Don't rely on hoping a player will automatically learn a new position over time, have them learn their new position through development training until they are "Accomplished". You can keep going until "Natural" but it really isn't worth it.

3) Constantly chopping and changing a single tactic can lead to poor tactical understanding for your team. If you do often juggle player positions, fluidity and/or mentality, it can be good practise to have 2 or 3 tactics set up each with a different combination of positions, mentalities and fluidity. That way, if you change something your team should still be fairly familiar with it. No need to worry about different roles in the same position though.

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1) General rule of thumb - if you are going to regularly play someone out of position you are better off retraining him to play there.

2) Don't rely on hoping a player will automatically learn a new position over time, have them learn their new position through development training until they are "Accomplished". You can keep going until "Natural" but it really isn't worth it.

3) Constantly chopping and changing a single tactic can lead to poor tactical understanding for your team. If you do often juggle player positions, fluidity and/or mentality, it can be good practise to have 2 or 3 tactics set up each with a different combination of positions, mentalities and fluidity. That way, if you change something your team should still be fairly familiar with it. No need to worry about different roles in the same position though.

Thanks for the response!

1) and 2) So your experience has been that you should retrain? Even for playing an AML as ML or vice versa? Interesting; there seems to be some debate about that. And playing them in the position does not help them learn it? Seems counter-intuitive but I haven't tried it enough to have an opinion there (thus the questions).

3) Yeah, I've discovered that chopping and changing is definitely not a good way to go. I keep getting press reports talking about "woolymuffler's tinkering undone" and we're barely accomplished in my tactic after 3 months of the regular season. Of course, by the game's standards, I'm giving my team a new tactic every week, so it's understandable that my team is confused.

So even for mentality changes (Defensive to Standard to Attacking) with the same positions, roles and duties, those should be separate tactics? That's where my confusion lies I guess. What does the game consider a "new tactic" to be learned versus an in-game adjustment.

I would think that philosophy (flexible, rigid, etc.), positions, roles and (maybe) duties should be the tactic that has to be learned and shouldn't be chopped and changed. If you want alternative sets of philosophies, positions, roles and duties, those should be separate tactics to be learned. I could see a case for duties being week to week or even in-game adjustments, depending on the opponents (telling your fullback to stay back this week because the opposing winger is dangerous (from attacking to defending), etc). Mentalities, Team Instructions and Player Instructions should be the week to week or in-game adjustments. All IMO of course; it doesn't matter how I think it should work, just how it actually works in the game.

So, if I'm understanding this properly, I should have a standard tactic that is basically how I want my team to play in an even(ish) odds game. This will be philosophy, mentality, roles, duties and team/player instructions of my ideal style of play for my current team (tweaked over time to reflect how it plays, etc. but not changing constantly). Then have alternate tactics (either different formations or the same formation with alternative roles, mentality, etc.) for changes of pace, closing up shop, chasing a game, parking the bus, etc. Obviously, you can't have that many tactics so you have to decide what alternates you will need for your current team and season. More or less correct?

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How you decide to set up alternate tactics is up to you. I have two currently that are different formations. If I need to change approach in a match, I just change the mentality. There is some minor penalty for doing that, but it is more than offset by getting it right against the opposition. It is valid to train three different mentalities with the same formation, or three different formations. I like having one or two alternate formations trained up just in case of injuries, condition, suspension, or whatever might force me into a different squad selection.

The most important thing, imo, when setting duties and roles, is how your team plays together, and interacts. You shouldn't need to be changing them week to week, because changing duties and or/roles will affect the entire way your team plays. I do change them in game from time to time if I am seeing something that needs addressing, but it isn't often, and I rarely do more than one or two at a time. Instead of designing a tactic for specific match odds, I prefer to envision how I want my team to play. You can accomplish a lot using PI and TI to change up the way your team plays in a match, but the underlying philosophy and approach you've designed remains the same.

That said, there are any number of ways to tackle FM, and no one approach is uniquely correct, but I would throw out a caution not to over complicate things.

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How you decide to set up alternate tactics is up to you. I have two currently that are different formations. If I need to change approach in a match, I just change the mentality. There is some minor penalty for doing that, but it is more than offset by getting it right against the opposition. It is valid to train three different mentalities with the same formation, or three different formations. I like having one or two alternate formations trained up just in case of injuries, condition, suspension, or whatever might force me into a different squad selection.

The most important thing, imo, when setting duties and roles, is how your team plays together, and interacts. You shouldn't need to be changing them week to week, because changing duties and or/roles will affect the entire way your team plays. I do change them in game from time to time if I am seeing something that needs addressing, but it isn't often, and I rarely do more than one or two at a time. Instead of designing a tactic for specific match odds, I prefer to envision how I want my team to play. You can accomplish a lot using PI and TI to change up the way your team plays in a match, but the underlying philosophy and approach you've designed remains the same.

That said, there are any number of ways to tackle FM, and no one approach is uniquely correct, but I would throw out a caution not to over complicate things.

Yeah, but as I've learned the hard way, there are definitely approaches that are NOT correct (like training a single tactic and changing it week to week).

That sounds like a good approach; figure out how you want to play (formation, roles, duties) plus one or two alternative setups to cover for injuries or just for a change up. Then use the mentalities and team/player instructions for week to week and in-match adjustments. Play players out of position if necessary to preserve the learned system rather than changing the system just because the backup isn't the same type of player as the starter (use individual player instructions rather than changing the player position, role or duty) . Or create a new tactic to accommodate the alternate player if this will be used frequently or the starter is out for an extended period.

I've been too hung up with putting players in their natural positions and preferred roles, rather than coming up with a logical system that suits the team as a whole and fitting the players into that system (even if they are an AML instead of an ML).

Thanks!

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In FMC, you just click a player and then hit the information tab.

Thanks - I didn't know if there was a way to see all PPMs for each player all at once rather than having to go into each player individually.

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Guys, do you have any tips how to defend with 4-4-2 flat against 3-4-3 (flat midfield, 3 central strikers) without the need of changing the formation?

I doubt so. You are at an disadvantage in attack and defence. In attack, you are outnumbered 3 to 2. In defence, their 3 strikers are going to pin your defenders back or take advantage of a 3 on 2 situation when your fullbacks push up.

Can probably try dropping a striker back into AMC so that you at least have a man advantage in midfield.

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Guys, do you have any tips how to defend with 4-4-2 flat against 3-4-3 (flat midfield, 3 central strikers) without the need of changing the formation?

As Vasili noted above, it's tough. It is doable, though. Definitely have a holding CM (The DLP-D is a good choice as he sits pretty deep by default) as per usual with the 4-4-2, but also look at having your other CM play a bit deeper and less adventurously; CM S or D. Your attack will be on the flanks here and you should have acres of space to counter that way.

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Thanks guys.

1. Two of my backup strikers have PPM "comes deep", so I will play one of them to emulate vasilli07's suggestion to have an advantage in midfield.

2. I am on FM11, I play 4-4-2 flat, with two deep-lying playmakers (Mentality 2), so they are pretty deep already. I might try to man mark their outer central forwards with my full backs, leaving the central one against my two center backs...and yes, I shall attack the flanks so I will change my MR, ML (on default they cut inside) for proper wingers.

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Hei guys. I tried searching but I'm left here to ask another stupid question.

Does U19 staff have any affect on the senior team?

No they only coach or physio the U19 players.

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Wide Playmaker and Raumdeuter - Does it matter what footed they are or would it be better having right footer if they are on the right side or visa-verse

For a wide playmaker, probably the opposite foot is more important. For a Raumdeuter - can see benefits for either.

What do the side line team talks do? If I tell my team to tighten up do they change anything tactically? Every time I tell them something the bar under says: "Making tactical changed". But what does it change?

It's more of a mental thing, not causing an actual tactical change.

What exactly does the game consider a mistake? On the analysis tab I mean - I'm watching some of them and I'm not understanding at all what's going on that could be considered a mistake. Sometimes the player isn't even anywhere near the ball or involved in the play.

It could be failure to make a challenge, a missed interception, a turnover of possession in a dangerous session.

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If I have the player instruction "Cross Aim to Target Man" ticked, but I don't actually have a Target Man, will they assume that the lone CF/A is the target and direct crosses to him or will it have no effect whatsoever? Would "Cross Aim Centre" be more effective?

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If I have the player instruction "Cross Aim to Target Man" ticked, but I don't actually have a Target Man, will they assume that the lone CF/A is the target and direct crosses to him or will it have no effect whatsoever? Would "Cross Aim Centre" be more effective?

It only works if he's a target man.

Does a lack of team cohesion cause players to act sellfish (or just dont see the other player unmarked) in the opp box?

or is it purely a teamwork rating matter?

Teach cohesion is how well they work with others.

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When a centreback has "gets forward whenever possible" PPM, what does it mean exactly? What will his behaviour be?

I would guess, in an attack situation, if he sees the space he may attack it. I would expect that would happen in a more fluid system, with space to attack, and the freedom to do it.

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Does a lack of team cohesion cause players to act sellfish (or just dont see the other player unmarked) in the opp box?

or is it purely a teamwork rating matter?

Compare play at the beginning of the first season with later on. You should see a difference between passes going astray and losing easy possession evolve into better passing and keeping possession.

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My Roma team are conceding over a goal a game at the moment from corners, almost 2 a game from all set pieces combined. I have my defensive settings pretty solid with 4 zonal marking, 2 on posts and the rest bar one back and defending but the goals keep on coming, and my season is unraveling at the eleventh hour. Ive saw a few other people complaining about similar issues but have yet to see a definitive reply. Does anyone have any idea what could be causing this?

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My Roma team are conceding over a goal a game at the moment from corners, almost 2 a game from all set pieces combined. I have my defensive settings pretty solid with 4 zonal marking, 2 on posts and the rest bar one back and defending but the goals keep on coming, and my season is unraveling at the eleventh hour. Ive saw a few other people complaining about similar issues but have yet to see a definitive reply. Does anyone have any idea what could be causing this?

It really depends on what sort of goals you are giving up as to what the problem might be. Is there a pattern to it that you have noticed?

I am pretty sure it isn't an FM issue because while some are having problems others aren't. I don't have the problem. I have fullbacks marking the posts, my 2 CBs, marking tall players, 3 players zonal marking the box, 1 on edge of area, and 2 back. I concede now and then as does everyone, but it's not a problem. Your setup sounds similar.

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the majority are from crosses to the near post, though there has been concessions from other balls "into the mixer", as well as a couple of quite calamitous examples of Liverpool-esque defensive errors.

Tbh honest my defence are also conceding a slew of late goals from comfortable, winning positions that are costing us 3 points time and again. No defensive set up seems to be comfortable and I am struggling to identify what exactly is going wrong. I am very conservative in my player set up, making sure my roles are defensively complementary and solid, and I switch formations between 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 depending on how defensively I expect my opponents to set up.

I stay away from Opponent Instructions based on Cleon's advice, except for showing fullbacks or wingbacks onto their weaker feet. Frustratingly though a few recent games have seen opposition wing-backs get the freedom of the park to pick out easy crosses for tap-ins late on, despite me having the problem flank both stacked with a defensive minded full-back, as well as having the inside forward (or even wide-midfielder of we go to 4-1-4-1) man marking him using Player Instructions.

There are a few issues that may be contributing such as:

1. Defenders are not really that good. (Leo Castan is our best central defender and he is, quite frankly, brutal in FM15!)

2. All my defensively minded midfielders except De Rossi have problematic PPMs that could potentially lead to them getting caught out of position.

3. Poor goalkeepers. Morgan De Sanctis is still our best keeper at 38, but as bad as we are with him, every time he is dropped things get even worse.

4. De Sanctis and Maicon are out of contract in a couple of months having refused cut-price offers, and their performances have become noticeably worse during that time.

5. Our team has alot of old, old men.

6. We do not play a particularly strenuous, high tempo game, but the players are all finding themselves tired (70-75 fitness) around the 70min mark. I even set team training to low, but even this has failed to curb this problem.

So much stress. I have a new found sympathy for Sam Allardyce :D

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Playing a 4-1-2-3DM as its known in the game on either standard or control. Occasionally go 4-2-3-1 if I feel a team is playing defensive and I want to get either a Shadow Striker or Treq at ACM involved. There was one game in particular against Inter where we were 5-0 down at half time - the movement of their two forwards and surging overlaps of their wingbacks left my defensive totally bamboozled. FAKE EDIT: I just went back and studied the game there and it seems that I didnt change my centre-back partnership from stopper/cover over to def/def to deal with the opposition striking duo (though I was relatively certain that I did :-/ but still have no idea how/if I didnt change it well before half time), but at least that explains that anomaly.

The match that really started the downward spiral of defensive ineptitude was throwing away a 3-0 HT lead away at Lazio - they switched to a 3-4-1-2 and their wingbacks ran amok. Im relatively certain I changed the stopper/cover partnership to def/def at HT to combat this (is there a way to check this?), but even when I went 4-1-4-1 they continued to overlap and find space. It was infuriating.

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The match that really started the downward spiral of defensive ineptitude was throwing away a 3-0 HT lead away at Lazio - they switched to a 3-4-1-2 and their wingbacks ran amok. Im relatively certain I changed the stopper/cover partnership to def/def at HT to combat this (is there a way to check this?), but even when I went 4-1-4-1 they continued to overlap and find space. It was infuriating.

To overcome a 3 defenders formation, you can try using the overlap and play wider shout to create 2 vs 1 on the flanks.

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I wasnt looking to attack at this point. I was 3-0 then 4-2 up with 10mins left and Lazio scored TWICE in the 80th minute. At that stage I'd went 4-1-4-1 defend, and had my left winger man-marking the wingback (though it was frekkin Gervinho, the lazy sod). Im uploading the two goals to youtube, can anyone inform me how to link them onto this forum? Thanks.

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Just post the link? I'm a guy who doesn't change much when the opponent goes into an attacking strategy to come back. I know they are going to attack so there will be space for my own team. A few changes here and there is fine but don't change too much.

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This video starts a little late, not doing justice to Gervinho's total lack of awareness as to where his man is but you can still see the massive gap he exploits.

The second goal starts just after the passage of play that I wanted to identify so I'll not link it, but it's basically very similar to the above one, where Konko finds half an acre out on the flank.

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First competitive game of the new season and we win 4-3 away at Sporting Lisbon. Conceded a wonder goal to Diego Capel who cuts inside, round two defenders and places one in the corner while the other two goals were described as both a "fluke" and a "freak" respectively in the post match summary.

This is surely, SURELY some kind of glitch/bug, when everytime I play a team considered to be of similar level I am powerless to stop them scoring once they go a couple of goals behind? Im not saying this as some frustrated noob, as Im sure you can see by the date I joined the forums I have many years of top flight experience :D but this has me completely baffled.

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To overcome a 3 defenders formation, you can try using the overlap and play wider shout to create 2 vs 1 on the flanks.

Good shout here Vasili- I just played a match against a 3-5-2, and did just that except instead of play wider I used the exploit the flanks shout.

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What's more important for a defender? Anticipation or tackling? Is it important to be able to read the game better or being able to win the ball back better? Or are they both equally important?

All else being equal, I think I would take the higher anticipation man. Even better is positioning, but I am a real fan of the mental attributes. The way I see it, the better the a player reads the game and reacts, the easier it is for him to respond; if it isn't with a tackle, he can still disrupt the play.

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What attributes would you guys say are most important for pressing? I'm trying to build a tactic with high pressing and so looking for players suitable for it. I'm thinking aggression, determination, work rate, positioning, stamina...? The way I see it, I don't necessarily need good tacklers, just players with the desire and physical ability to put pressure on the opposition to force them to make a decision quickly and hopefully rashly.

Also, a slightly off-topic question perhaps but is anyone (particularly mods) aware of that 'guide to football manager' site and do you know how reliable/accurate the info on there is? I go there occasionally when I'm not sure what a certain instruction/role or whatever does but I have no idea if it's right/wrong (obviously a lot about this game is open to interpretation/opinion)

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The best centre-back partnership are usually a combination of both. Think Ferdinand (cover) & Vidic (stopper), Carragher (stopper) & Hyypia (cover), Puyol (stopper) & Pique (cover). Classic pairings include Baresi (cover) & Costacurta (stopper) or Bould (stopper) & Adams (cover), or for 3cb systems think Italy '82 with Scirea (Sweeper) Collovati (stopper) and Gentile (hatchet man :D )

You dont really have to use specific cover and stopper duties, as the mental attributes tend to come into play all by themselves when you have the correct personnel.

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What attributes would you guys say are most important for pressing? I'm trying to build a tactic with high pressing and so looking for players suitable for it. I'm thinking aggression, determination, work rate, positioning, stamina...? The way I see it, I don't necessarily need good tacklers, just players with the desire and physical ability to put pressure on the opposition to force them to make a decision quickly and hopefully rashly.

Also, a slightly off-topic question perhaps but is anyone (particularly mods) aware of that 'guide to football manager' site and do you know how reliable/accurate the info on there is? I go there occasionally when I'm not sure what a certain instruction/role or whatever does but I have no idea if it's right/wrong (obviously a lot about this game is open to interpretation/opinion)

You've nailed the desired attributes for pressing quite well there.

As for the website, has plenty of useful bits of information on there. I know not everyone is a fan, but I think it's fairly useful.

The best centre-back partnership are usually a combination of both. Think Ferdinand (cover) & Vidic (stopper), Carragher (stopper) & Hyypia (cover), Puyol (stopper) & Pique (cover). Classic pairings include Baresi (cover) & Costacurta (stopper) or Bould (stopper) & Adams (cover), or for 3cb systems think Italy '82 with Scirea (Sweeper) Collovati (stopper) and Gentile (hatchet man :D )

You dont really have to use specific cover and stopper duties, as the mental attributes tend to come into play all by themselves when you have the correct personnel.

I use Koscielny & Mertesacker on Defend-Defend duties, but I like the fact that their attributes and PPM's come into play well here. I see Koscielny often step up to win the ball, and Mertesacker drop off and making the well timed tackle.

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As opposed to real life, where Koscielny is always injured and Mertesaker jumps out of the way of crosses :D

The one thing Ive noticed recently is that an already aggressive defender with a stopper duty behaves like an absolute maniac, often charging past the anchor man in an attempt to win the ball early. I suppose in real life this kind of all-action approach would quickly make him a crowd favourite, but in FM it just takes a little half step from a tricky Attacking Midfielder to go by him and slot a nicely weighted through-ball into the vacated space for the opposing striker to run on to.

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Watch the video, Mertesacker got a call from the defender behind him.

Yeah the best thing to do is to upload a bug report if you see that kind of behaviour.

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What attributes would you guys say are most important for pressing? I'm trying to build a tactic with high pressing and so looking for players suitable for it. I'm thinking aggression, determination, work rate, positioning, stamina...? The way I see it, I don't necessarily need good tacklers, just players with the desire and physical ability to put pressure on the opposition to force them to make a decision quickly and hopefully rashly.

Also, a slightly off-topic question perhaps but is anyone (particularly mods) aware of that 'guide to football manager' site and do you know how reliable/accurate the info on there is? I go there occasionally when I'm not sure what a certain instruction/role or whatever does but I have no idea if it's right/wrong (obviously a lot about this game is open to interpretation/opinion)

I would also think about acceleration- you want them to get where they are going as fast as they can, and anticipation- you want them reading the play and reacting quickly. Add those to your already excellent list and you have the perfect pressing machine (and one hard to find too, perhaps??) :)

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When defending a one goal lead do you do both defensive mentality and drop deeper defensive line

I do neither :brock:

It entirely depends, but if the AI is going all out to secure a draw late on, then the last thing I'd want to do is sit deep, hit the ball long and invite wave after wave of attack.

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I do neither :brock:

It entirely depends, but if the AI is going all out to secure a draw late on, then the last thing I'd want to do is sit deep, hit the ball long and invite wave after wave of attack.

This x2

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I tend to have a decent compact shape defensively, so I actually do tend to sit more compact. I try and keep the ball a bit more, and I always want an outlet of some kind, because otherwise you have those endless waves RTHerringbone described.

My usual changes are: Monreal on the left wing as a Defensive Winger (with Gibbs behind), or vice versa. Flamini on in midfield to pair with Arteta (more conservative midfield pair), changing striker to a Defensive Forward.

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It appears to me that most tactics include a DM. Is the general advice to include a DM for a successful tactic?

Also, how do you score from corners..? I can have like 15 corners in a game without scoring. My opponents don't score from corners either though, so at least I'm not going all "this game is unfair" or anything. :)

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It appears to me that most tactics include a DM. Is the general advice to include a DM for a successful tactic?

Also, how do you score from corners..? I can have like 15 corners in a game without scoring. My opponents don't score from corners either though, so at least I'm not going all "this game is unfair" or anything. :)

You don't have to use a DMC no but if you don't then you have to accept you might struggle against sides who use 1 or more AMC's or strikers who drop off the front as you'll not be picking them up or have a player who is positioned well enough to always pick the man up. It's the same in real life, nearly all top teams use a DMC of some kind.

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When playing with a Raumdeuter or with an AP (A) in the AMRL positions, have people found them to be better on their weaker sides or stronger sides? For example, it's generally accepted that it's wise to play a right footed Winger on the right, and a right footed Inside Forward on the left. I have a feeling that the AP follows the IF and the RMD follows the W...

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