Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Common, you did plaster this thread already. Everybody knows that positioning is vital for you, that's because you stay in this holy thread, I guess. Not really. It's just more than positioning and CA.. Awww man. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maran Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 It's football, don't linger on those numbers all the time. If you watch a match you may spot, why one goalkeeper is better than the other. The numbers are just there to give you a hint, but there are no numbers in real football. Do you really think that +1 or -1 makes the difference in every match? If goalkeeper one has 5 in positioning and goalkeeper two has 10, but goalkeeper one's morale is high and he likes to play for you, while goalkeeper two don't like you and his morale is terrible - which one would probably play better in the coming matches? Your comment basically renders attributes obsolete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Yes. I play my game and enjoy it. Cool. Well then. I'm off to bed. Am still sure they know the issue already. Goodnight everyone. thanks for input! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KUBI Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Your comment basically renders attributes obsolete Not at all. If two players have the same motivation and high morale, attributes will make the difference. But as in real life, if you are down and tired someone who is not as quick in general could be quicker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOG Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 It's football, don't linger on those numbers all the time. If you watch a match you may spot, why one goalkeeper is better than the other. The numbers are just there to give you a hint, but there are no numbers in real football. Do you really think that +1 or -1 makes the difference in every match? If goalkeeper one has 5 in positioning and goalkeeper two has 10, but goalkeeper one's morale is high and he likes to play for you, while goalkeeper two don't like you and his morale is terrible - which one would probably play better in the coming matches? The numbers are there to represent actual abilities. The attributes are there to give us a good idea of a player's strengths and weaknesses so we can make the appropriate tactical and squad-building decisions. If, for example, I play a high defensive line and rely on smaller, quick centrebacks, it absolutely is important for me to know whether my keeper is going to rush out for through balls and make aerial challenges in place of my centrebacks if tall forwards do manager to get into the box. And as I said upthread, the attributes represent the many hours that scouts and managers would spend observing players in both matches and on the training ground. I generally agree that it might be better to use descriptions like "Poor," "Average" and "Good" to mask the actual numerical values, but this doesn't change the fact that attributes are there to reflect real knowledge that scouts and managers have in real football. Not at all. If two players have the same motivation and high morale, attributes will make the difference. But as in real life, if you are down and tired someone who is not as quick in general could be quicker. But that's why the game also models morale and sheer luck. Certain attributes may not make the difference in an isolated game, but on average over a long series of games, however, attributes are going to make the difference and they are there to model the very real differences in quality that exist between players. And as I point out above, other attributes (rushing out, aerial ability, eccentricity, etc.) are going to have a major effect on certain tactical arrangements, and in that case, the distribution of a particular keeper's attributes are going to matter more than if they happen to be better than the opposing keeper in this attribute or that attribute. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazaru5 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Shut it.Five of them are over the age of 30. Then maybe the AI has adapted too, i.e. "ass-man suggests positioning individual focus" My "star" keeper is Steve Harper God! *worships* I wish KK woulda let us keep him when we had him on loan that time... "Harper for England!" was regularly heard emanating from the Kilner Bank stand Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KUBI Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 I generally agree that it might be better to use descriptions like "Poor," "Average" and "Good" to mask the actual numerical values, but this doesn't change the fact that attributes are there to reflect real knowledge that scouts and managers have in real football. It's always knowledge, experience and guessing, as nobody can see PA figures in real football. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loversleaper Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 I remember playing a Match in the real world where the opposition striker was clear through on goal. I recall the keeper was guarding the one post for some reason (he should have been more or less in the center of goal due to the position of the opposition striker), I clearly remember thinking "geez, this guy's positioning really sucks" - but I can see now after reading the thread that I was wrong, I should have been thinking "geez, this guy's command of the area really sucks..." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOG Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 It's always knowledge, experience and guessing, as nobody can see PA figures in real football. But people can make reasonable judgments regarding a player's strengths and weaknesses after watching them play for dozens of hours in many different contexts, and knowledge of these strengths and weaknesses (and their general effects) is critical when making tactical and squad building decisions. EDIT: And as I mentioned waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay upthread, the visual presentation of the match engine doesn't allow us to judge why certain things happen as we would in real life (by examining events in striking visual detail) and attributes are there to allow us to make those judgments (for example, why a keeper won an aerial challenge as opposed to just knowing that he won it). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KUBI Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 I remember playing a Match in the real world where the opposition stiker was clear through on goal. I recall the keeper was guarding the one post for some reason (he should have been more or less in the center of goal due to the position the opposition striker), I remember thinking "geez, this guy's positioning really sucks" - but I can see now after reading the thread that I was wrong, I should have been thinking "geez, this guy's command of the area really sucks..." I think both is wrong. Intelligence was probably just 2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMaster2 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 For each stat there is a value, the weight that show how much important a stat is for each position. The higher the weight the more CA is needed to have a high value in that stat the more important that stat is (this data is from a tool used for this year's research): GK: 15.00 for Handling and Reflexes 10.00 for POSITIONING,Concentration,Bravery,Decisions,Agility,Aerial Ability,Command of Area,Communication,Kicking,One on Ones, 6.00 for Accelleration,Strenght,Throwing etc... So positioning is not so important for a GK? I DON'T THINK SO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomatrik Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 For each stat there is a value, the weight that show how much important a stat is for each position. The higher the weight the more CA is needed to have a high value in that stat the more important that stat is (this data is from a tool used for this year's research):GK: 15.00 for Handling and Reflexes 10.00 for POSITIONING,Concentration,Bravery,Decisions,Agility,Aerial Ability,Command of Area,Communication,Kicking,One on Ones, 6.00 for Accelleration,Strenght,Throwing etc... So positioning is not so important for a GK? I DON'T THINK SO. So.... Sengkang may have found the mother of all bugs then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazaru5 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 So.... Sengkang may have found the mother of all bugs then. indeed... so what would you do? 'fess up and say "the game's broke we're working on a hotfix" or "it's not that important" and sweep it under the rug? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Or "It's not actually as important as people are making out and we're working on a fix", which is what I believe has been said in this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loversleaper Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 So.... Sengkang may have found the mother of all bugs then. If the game doesn't use the stat for anything in the ME, you can't quite call it a bug. Don't be surprised if other attributes/options don't work or don't work the way you think it does either. I remember the explanation on how the "counter attack" worked in the ME, it was ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters76 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 mods are fanboys Don't get me wrong, FM is the best (footy)game out there and it rules. But mods "always" go all out defence when people point out something that just isn't right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomatrik Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 indeed...so what would you do? 'fess up and say "the game's broke we're working on a hotfix" or "it's not that important" and sweep it under the rug? They really need to clear things up imo. If FM is as "deep" and "complexed" as we all seem to belive,things like this may affect the game way beyond the match engine in a long term save. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preveza Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Just realised this thread. So the only issue is that positioning attribute doesnt increase? I can live with that. This game has way too many positives, and ONE attribute will not deter me from playing. Quit the worrying and enjoy the best game of the FM series to date. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMaster2 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 If positioning doesn't matter that much then why it does consume so much CA? Two identical GK, both of them have ALL stats at 15 except positioning: GK 1 (All 15, positioning at 5) -> CA 166 GK 2 (All 15, positioning at 18) -> CA 180 If it's not a VITAL stat this one... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters76 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 If positioning doesn't matter that much then why it does consume so much CA?Two identical GK, both of them have ALL stats at 15 except positioning: GK 1 (All 15, positioning at 5) -> CA 166 GK 2 (All 15, positioning at 18) -> CA 180 If it's not a VITAL stat this one... A dev came on here explaining it is important, just not THAT important. The moderators always go all out defence over critisism and can't be trusted about game engine things. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMaster2 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 A dev came on here explaining it is important, just not THAT important. The moderators always go all out defence over critisism and can't be trusted about game engine things. Enough important to ruin a save, at least for me... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyprime Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 i think other than the bug which will prob be fixed soon, the big issue is how highly weighted positioning is compared to its importance and as has been said do all the researches know? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtyscarab Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Just realised this thread. So the only issue is that positioning attribute doesnt increase? I can live with that. This game has way too many positives, and ONE attribute will not deter me from playing. Quit the worrying and enjoy the best game of the FM series to date. That about sums this thread up nicely. SI are aware. It'll be fixed in the patch. /rant Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigfacemonkeyman Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Just realised this thread. So the only issue is that positioning attribute doesnt increase? I can live with that. This game has way too many positives, and ONE attribute will not deter me from playing. Quit the worrying and enjoy the best game of the FM series to date. No, it will decrease. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vasilli07 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Would training his positioning stop it from decreasing or at least maintain it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 Would training his positioning stop it from decreasing or at least maintain it? This problem seems to be deeper than just positioning in GKs. The AI seems to think positioning for GK is important in the way that it distributes it in a player's CA. It is hghlighted as a Key attribute but yet SI has said it isn't important. The bigger picture is not just positioning for GKs. What attributes actually matter? Since in common sense we think Positioning in GK is impt and it actually isn't in the game? If Rooney's attributes are all 1... How will he perform against an unedited Rooney? Keeping stats statue quo, editing just the CA/PA, does Rooney in the game still does.. as well..? I'll try.. Rooney all's attributes all to 1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 If positioning is cosmetic (as my brilliant friend puts it).. despite being highlighted as a key attribute what else is cosmetic contrary to real life football management? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 Rooney = high CA/PA... Let me edit someone in the EPL with a lower CA/PA to all attributes = 1.. alright, Defoe. Just interesting. Now, all attributes, highlighted or not are in question.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sengkang Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 Would training his positioning stop it from decreasing or at least maintain it? It will. Even some of the AI will. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maran Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 No matter how much people try play this down, for me, its a massive problem. If you go back through the thread and read hand of god's and my posts (although i havent articulated my points as well as him, out of laziness ) you will see why I believe this is serious and makes fm unplayable, for now. There have been a few issues and questions that have stemmed from default training for gks not allowing for positioning training. I feel now that it would be a good time for someone in the know from SI to review the posts I have mentioned and provide an extensive explanation about the whole positioning thing... While we wait for a fix. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joga Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Maybe i am still at denial state because i still have a hard time to accept that positioning isn't that important for goalkeepers. Neil Brock: "I said it isn't 'that' important, I didn't say it wasn't important at all. There's a number of stats which add up to be important for a goalkeeper, it is one of many. It's not as 'important' as reflexes or handling but yeah it does make a difference. Just not as big a difference as some people in this thread seem to be thinking." So from this we could make a conclusion that reflexes and handling are those "vital" stats for goalkeeper, maybe some others too. But if you think about it, as a goalkeeper you dont do anything with ex. reflexes and handling if you have a poor positioning. Your reflexes are useless if you are positioned poorly, then striker is just going to place the shot past you, no matter how good your reflexes are. Handling is also useless without positioning if you are positioned poorly your handling isn't going to help you much because you cant even touch the ball before it is in the net. This list can go on and on but i think you get the point. Then Brock said this: " Here's another thing you may not know - High Jumping does absolutely nothing for a goalkeeper Their 'jumping' comes under Aerial Ability..." So you are implying that positioning is somehow linked with some other attribute hmm... this could make sense, if there would be an attribute which it could be linked. Next thing you are saying is that positioning isn't that important stat for defenders either, because their 'positioning' comes under marking. So the bottom line is that you decided that positioning isn't that important attribute for goalkeepers, then you put in the key attribute list in the game and you decided that lets make it a high cost too. Brock is also implying that positioning doesn't really mean what we think and it doesn't really concern goalkeepers, only defenders. If this is what you are implying i'd like to clear a few things, 1. Finishing mean that a striker can place a shot in the net or striker can finish a defender with a nice kick in the head, 2. tendency to punch means that gk rushes out ex. corners and punches the ball out or gk walks out and punches the opposite striker right in the face. When you decided that positioning isn't that important for gk were you high or just having a trainee deciding these things. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoldeFK15 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 So if I have all my GK's individual training put on positioning then the team I am will have no issues at all. It would just be the AI teams?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joga Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 So if I have all my GK's individual training put on positioning then the team I am will have no issues at all. It would just be the AI teams?? Correct, altough you are still using that individual training for something you shouldn't have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maran Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Correct, altough you are still using that individual training for something you shouldn't have. And the game is unbalanced in your favour, by the AI keeper's positioning dropping and yours sustaining; and by AI teams purchasing players based on their CA, when in fact many of these CA points are being somewhat "wasted" on an attribute of low importance. Whereas you can look at another keeper with identical stats in all areas, except he has lower positioning (thus a lower CA), and you can get him for cheaper, because his valuation by the AI is less than that of the other keeper with the higher CA (where the difference is being "wasted" on non-important positioning). This shifts the balance further in your favour and thus causes the game to be unrealistic. This unbalanced, unrealistic state of the game is before we consider the fact that positioning is (apparently) not an important stat in the game, yet it is extremely important in real life! Which, as I an hand of god have previously mentioned, is at the detriment to many teams with keeper's that have high positioning (and thus are having their CA "wasted"). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSH Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 I can't believe there are people trying to play down the importance of GK positioning in order to defend the game, when SI themselves have admitted that it's a serious issue they are already working on it. What has happened to this community? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 This problem seems to be deeper than just positioning in GKs.The AI seems to think positioning for GK is important in the way that it distributes it in a player's CA. It is hghlighted as a Key attribute but yet SI has said it isn't important. The bigger picture is not just positioning for GKs. What attributes actually matter? Since in common sense we think Positioning in GK is impt and it actually isn't in the game? If Rooney's attributes are all 1... How will he perform against an unedited Rooney? Keeping stats statue quo, editing just the CA/PA, does Rooney in the game still does.. as well..? I'll try.. Rooney all's attributes all to 1. Sorry you have just taken a wild leap from positioning, to all attributes... Not sure what the point of the "experiment" is Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 I can't believe there are people trying to play down the importance of GK positioning in order to defend the game, when SI themselves have admitted that it's a serious issue they are already working on it.What has happened to this community? People have different views? It's allowed in the community Also: Quote Originally Posted by Neil Brock View PostI said it isn't 'that' important, I didn't say it wasn't important at all. There's a number of stats which add up to be important for a goalkeeper, it is one of many. It's not as 'important' as reflexes or handling but yeah it does make a difference. Just not as big a difference as some people in this thread seem to be thinking. Not quite end of world issue people seem to be making it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joga Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 I can't believe there are people trying to play down the importance of GK positioning in order to defend the game, when SI themselves have admitted that it's a serious issue they are already working on it.What has happened to this community? Modern day youth don't really have any patience, they want everything, right now. The other problem is that people for some reasons does not question things, we just take everything and accept it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joga Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Sorry you have just taken a wild leap from positioning, to all attributes...Not sure what the point of the "experiment" is Think the point is to find out what attributes do matter for each positions, since positioning isn't that important for gk. How can we know is finishing important for strikers? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSH Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 People have different views? It's allowed in the community A different opinion that goes against the creators of the game? lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govnar1 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 If the game doesn't use the stat for anything in the ME, you can't quite call it a bug. Don't be surprised if other attributes/options don't work or don't work the way you think it does either. I remember the explanation on how the "counter attack" worked in the ME, it was ... could you please give me a link Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Think the point is to find out what attributes do matter for each positions, since positioning isn't that important for gk. How can we know is finishing important for strikers? Finishing is the last stat i think about with strikers. I worry more about determination, acceleration, anticipation, off the ball, decisions, composure and creativity first Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 A different opinion that goes against the creators of the game? lol Not really, did you read the rest of it? Up to that person if they feel it impacts their game enough. Hardly "lol" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joga Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Finishing is the last stat i think about with strikers. I worry more about determination, acceleration, anticipation, off the ball, decisions, composure and creativity first How do you know if any of those attributes really does matter, using a common sense, think again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 How do you know if any of those attributes really does matter, using a common sense, think again. Because i have been playing the game long enough, with many different types of players, to spot which type tends to well for me. And it works very well for me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erimus1876 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 And the game is unbalanced in your favour, by the AI keeper's positioning dropping and yours sustaining; and by AI teams purchasing players based on their CA, when in fact many of these CA points are being somewhat "wasted" on an attribute of low importance. Whereas you can look at another keeper with identical stats in all areas, except he has lower positioning (thus a lower CA), and you can get him for cheaper, because his valuation by the AI is less than that of the other keeper with the higher CA (where the difference is being "wasted" on non-important positioning). This shifts the balance further in your favour and thus causes the game to be unrealistic.This unbalanced, unrealistic state of the game is before we consider the fact that positioning is (apparently) not an important stat in the game, yet it is extremely important in real life! Which, as I an hand of god have previously mentioned, is at the detriment to many teams with keeper's that have high positioning (and thus are having their CA "wasted"). This is the crux of the matter for me. The AI already has massive disadvantages already without having this one thrown into the mix. Wether posistioning is important or not, at the end of the day the only thing that will suffer will be AI clubs because of the inbalance it'll cause in other areas of the game, as you mentioned. Even if it turns out to be only a minor flaw for us, its still another bit of ammo in the locker for the human player to continue to dominate the gameworld... give the AI a break ffs! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joga Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Because i have been playing the game long enough, with many different types of players, to spot which type tends to well for me. And it works very well for me But i also bet that you have made some assumptions like composure is important for attackers if you wouldn't, then you would have to test every attribute to find out what really matters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 But i also bet that you have made some assumptions like composure is important for attackers if you wouldn't, then you would have to test every attribute to find out what really matters. Again when you play with enough players you get a feel for what attribute blend well together. Without having to arbitrarily test every attribute Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
x42bn6 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Except it doesn't apply to just Reina - it applies to every single keeper. The game remains balanced, it's not a big problem.Would you argue the same way if there was a bug in the game that caused every club, including Manchester City, to have their revenue reset to £0 after every week? It affects every club, so it's balanced, so isn't a big problem.Not at all. Nobody cares about "balance" - they care about the impact of the bug. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joga Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Again when you play with enough players you get a feel for what attribute blend well together. Without having to arbitrarily test every attribute So person who doesn't know anything about football, even fact doesn't even speak english, would play as good as football genius? Because you can get the feel which attributes matter? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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