Tactical Theorems and Frameworks '07

[Bademesteren]

Originally posted by Beeno:

Another thought....

In real life a squad will practice their match tactics for the upcoming game during that weeks training. Is there any evidence that switching to the tactics you intend to use for your next match ASAP makes any difference?

I always do just in case.

So do I... just in case...

[Disco-Stu]

It's back again! Endless losing I mean... I've used Rot Solid tactics for 3 seasons with my West Ham squad. Ended 6th-8th and had great success in Europe and in Cups. I was pretty happy and so was the board. But now come the 4th season and I'm getting a huge beating from everyone, except Yeovil, thank god. It really frustrates me because there doesn't seem to be anything wrong in my squad or thos tactics, that've been working well over the past years.

Lads just keep on playing like crap all the time...

I know here's only little information in this post, but if someone could give me a hint what the feck is going on, would appreciate it...

I can't believe these tactics could just be sooooo bad all of the sudden. Hard to tell from the 2D match view what actually ****s up the form, because it seems nothing works as it should. Sometimes we've been able to get decent results, meaning not losing horribly, but usually it's 3-0 at the half time whisle, and sometimes we concede every shot taken. Though the goalie, Craig Gordon plays 8s and 9s...

Maybe it's time for the Finnish reign in Upton Park to come to a sudden and not-too-glorius end. Wich some would say is a relief...

Any thoughts?

Oh, by the way, the most difficult struggles are against sides that play 4-4-2 with short farrows for wings. Which seemingly means every team, at least against me. Always.

IRONS!

[ambi]

@Supersaint

What mentality settings would you suggest when using a targetman? In your 6-way system, you have both strikers on the same mentality, which is equal to the mentality of the central midfielder. I would guess it to be lower than the fast stikers by, lets say, two notches?

[supersaint]

Originally posted by ambi:

@Supersaint

What mentality settings would you suggest when using a targetman? In your 6-way system, you have both strikers on the same mentality, which is equal to the mentality of the central midfielder. I would guess it to be lower than the fast stikers by, lets say, two notches?

To be honest, no idea since I never have had any success with target men.

[Disco-Stu]

Okay, watched some twenty games now with extended highlights, but still can't quite point out what is not broken. Also tried to change to 4-3-1-2 and some other variations, but got beaten even heavier.

The main problem seems to be players not scoring, despite having some 10 shots on goal. They blast 'em over all the time. Other problem is, obviously, set pieces, wich oppositions seem to score a bunch, I've yet to score one.

Also, it seems my players have started to SUCK BIG TIME. As their stats have dramatically dropped in summer. Those slackers...

Well, this is my squad anyway if someone cares, though its year 2010 so this probably won't help:

GK Craig Gordon/Marek Stech

DL Emanuel Pogatetz/Ryan Bertrand

DC Curtis Davies/Jordan Spence

DC Steven Taylor/Jaques Faty

DR Glen Johnson/Anthony VD Borre

ML Leonardo/Jens Malchow

MC Nigel Reo-Coker/Rok Kronaveter

MC Freddy Guarin/Teemu Tainio

MR Yohan Gourcuff/Yossi Benayoun

FC Dean Ashton/Carlton Cole

FC Sultan Cem/Mitchell Bryant

Also noted that the scouting really does not work, as I've never been recommended any Scandinavian players even when my knowledge is full in Sweden and Norway. And scouts have Jpa&p ->17. Shame...

Any suggestions? Even goalless ties would be better than constantly getting hammered.

[ambi]

Originally posted by supersaint:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ambi:

@Supersaint

What mentality settings would you suggest when using a targetman? In your 6-way system, you have both strikers on the same mentality, which is equal to the mentality of the central midfielder. I would guess it to be lower than the fast stikers by, lets say, two notches?

To be honest, no idea since I never have had any success with target men.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thnx for the answer anyway, I'll try and figure that one out myself.

Another thing came up though. Don't you find that you lack creativity as there as all the players are low on this aspect.

Do you find that the central midfielders high cd is crucial to the tactic, or is it possible to reduce the cd and add cf?

[Guest]

Anyone got a tactic with only 3 at the back? no fullbacks please.

[supersaint]

Originally posted by ambi:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by supersaint:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ambi:

@Supersaint

What mentality settings would you suggest when using a targetman? In your 6-way system, you have both strikers on the same mentality, which is equal to the mentality of the central midfielder. I would guess it to be lower than the fast stikers by, lets say, two notches?

To be honest, no idea since I never have had any success with target men.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thnx for the answer anyway, I'll try and figure that one out myself.

Another thing came up though. Don't you find that you lack creativity as there as all the players are low on this aspect.

Do you find that the central midfielders high cd is crucial to the tactic, or is it possible to reduce the cd and add cf? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The high cd is more of a personal preference than anything else. I like my midfielders to close down anyone infront of the defence, thats why I have high CD on them. You could try reduce their CD a couple of notches and increase the CF with the same amount to see if it helps

[Uncle Sam]

Ive been using the format laid out by Supersaint (with minor changes to suit my preferred style) and so far I'm doing about as well as can be expected with the worthless bunch I've got.

[TheStoneMonkey]

Hi all

Been reading this thread for the past 6 hours or so (in between small bouts of (ugh) work - don't tell the boss).

Made myself a load of notes all copied into a nice big word file which I've printed out and will be trying out tonight when I get a chance.

*Background*

Been playing Stoke - first season I dominated the Championship using tactics that I carried over from success in FM06. Into the Prem I managed a respectable 5th in the 2007-2008 season, even going top for a couple of weeks at one point. This season (08-09) has been tough so far and I wanted to get back to basics, so, remembering seeing this thread before, I acme for a lookie. I'll let you all know how I get on.

[jornada]

Originally posted by Beeno:

Another thought....

In real life a squad will practice their match tactics for the upcoming game during that weeks training. Is there any evidence that switching to the tactics you intend to use for your next match ASAP makes any difference?

I always do just in case.

I'm not sure if there is evidence to it mattering, but the fact that there's a training module called "tactics" means im pretty much certain my guys will be learning a new tactic if it is required first thing monday morning

[ntfc]

Originally posted by supersaint:

Ok, Ive now finished the third test with the 6-tactics system. I have changed things around a bit this time, hoping that it could give better position, attacking opportunities etc. The major change from the two first tests have been that Ive switch the D-L home and away, so that I have a deep line away and high away. I reworked the mentality settings as an experiment and paired it with passing again.

I have also changed it from a normal 4-1-3-2, to a little more special one:

The reason for this was that the normal 4-1-3-2 had a tendency of having too big gap between the DMC and the MC. Setting it up like this, makes the DMC go forward, and almost be in line with the MC when attacking. This should give higher passing rating.

The season ended in 7th place, but could have been better. In the first 19 games I only let in 11 goals, but in the last 19 I let in 21, and lost lots of points were I gained them in the first half of the season.

Stats for the three versions:

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

HOME W D L SH OT POS PAS CRO TAC HEA GOA GAA SA GPSOG

Version 1 88% 12% 0% 8,88 3,75 48% 63% 43% 62% 47% 1,63 0,13 42% 43% ***SHORT TIME IN PROMOTION SEASON***

Version 2 42% 37% 21% 5,79 2,26 47% 61% 32% 59% 52% 0,95 0,47 36% 34% ***FIRST SEASON IN PREMIER LEAGUE***

Version 3 53% 26% 21% 8,68 3,37 48% 69% 29% 57% 56% 1,16 0,68 40% 35%

AWAY

Version 1 38% 50% 13% 10,00 3,50 48% 61% 43% 72% 51% 0,75 0,50 35% 21%

Version 2 16% 11% 73% 5,11 2,21 47% 61% 33% 67% 55% 0,79 2,26 41% 33%

Version 3 32% 42% 26% 7,05 2,53 48% 65% 24% 74% 54% 0,95 1,00 36% 37%

</pre>

The most positive thing I can see is that the passing stats have gone up, probably because of the two midfielders being more linked up than before. The other thing is the goals per shot on goal away, that also is going up. This seems to be because of the deep D-L away, and more through balls from the defenders(suggestion by wwfan).

Beside this, the stats are about the same as before, with exeption of the crossings that just keeps going down. I know that wwfan suggested less CF, and could be one reason.

Im gonna list all my tactics here(version 3), so any suggestions based on old theories are welcomed, because since I started testing on Sunday Ive only slept 10 hours. Thank you SI

Things that Im not gonna change is the pairing up of D-L and DC CD, since this works very well. Playing high line at home, and deep away also works, so that one will not be changed either. All other things are up for discussion

Home vs 4-3-2-2-1

Defensive Line: 14

Width: 14

Tempo: 4

Time-wasting: 6

Passing: Flanks

Offside Trap: Yes

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB TM

===============================================================================

Fullbacks 15 7 5 6 MIX OFT RAR RAR OFT NO

Central Defenders 13 4 7 6 RAR RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Defensive Midfielder 17 9 3 6 OFT MIX MIX MIX RAR NO

Midfielder 19 9 1 6 MIX OFT MIX MIX RAR NO

Wingers 17 9 3 6 OFT OFT RAR RAR OFT NO

Attackers 19 10 1 6 RAR RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

</pre>

Home vs Defensive tactics

Defensive Line: 8

Width: 12

Tempo: 8

Time-wasting: 8

Passing: Flanks

Offside Trap: Yes

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB TM

===============================================================================

Fullbacks 13 7 7 8 MIX RAR RAR MIX OFT NO

Central Defenders 11 4 9 12 RAR RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Defensive Midfielder 15 9 5 14 OFT RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Midfielder 17 9 3 14 MIX OFT MIX MIX RAR NO

Wingers 15 9 5 8 OFT OFT RAR RAR OFT NO

Attackers 17 10 3 14 MIX MIX RAR OFT RAR NO

</pre>

Home vs normal tactics

Defensive Line: 10

Width: 10

Tempo: 10

Time-wasting: 10

Passing: Flanks

Offside Trap: Yes

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB TM

===============================================================================

Fullbacks 11 7 9 10 MIX RAR RAR MIX MIX NO

Central Defenders 9 4 11 10 RAR RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Defensive Midfielder 13 9 7 14 MIX RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Midfielder 15 9 5 14 RAR MIX RAR MIX RAR NO

Wingers 13 9 7 10 MIX OFT RAR RAR OFT NO

Attackers 15 10 5 14 MIX MIX RAR OFT RAR NO

</pre>

Away vs normal tactics

Defensive Line: 12

Width: 8

Tempo: 12

Time-wasting: 12

Passing: Mixed

Counter-Attack: Yes

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB TM

================================================================================

Fullbacks 9 7 11 12 MIX RAR RAR OFT MIX NO

Central Defenders 7 4 13 8 RAR RAR RAR MIX RAR YES

Defensive Midfielder 11 9 9 14 MIX RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Midfielder 13 9 7 14 RAR MIX RAR MIX RAR NO

Wingers 11 9 9 12 MIX OFT RAR MIX MIX NO

Attackers 13 10 7 14 MIX OFT RAR MIX RAR NO

</pre>

Away vs attacking tactics

Defensive Line: 14

Width: 6

Tempo: 14

Time-wasting: 14

Passing: Mixed

Counter-Attack: Yes

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB TM

================================================================================

Fullbacks 7 7 13 14 MIX RAR RAR OFT MIX NO

Central Defenders 5 4 15 6 RAR RAR RAR MIX RAR YES

Defensive Midfielder 9 9 11 14 MIX RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Midfielder 11 9 9 14 RAR MIX RAR MIX RAR NO

Wingers 9 9 11 14 MIX OFT RAR MIX MIX NO

Attackers 13 10 7 14 MIX OFT RAR MIX RAR NO

</pre>

Away vs ultra-attacking tactics

Defensive Line: 17

Width: 3

Tempo: 16

Time-wasting: 17

Passing: Mixed

Counter-Attack: Yes

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

Men CF Pass CD FWR RWB LS TTB CB TM

================================================================================

Fullbacks 5 7 15 17 RAR RAR RAR OFT MIX NO

Central Defenders 3 4 17 3 RAR RAR RAR MIX RAR YES

Defensive Midfielder 7 9 13 14 MIX RAR RAR RAR RAR NO

Midfielder 9 9 11 14 RAR MIX RAR MIX RAR NO

Wingers 7 9 13 17 OFT OFT RAR MIX MIX NO

Attackers 9 10 11 14 MIX OFT RAR MIX RAR NO

</pre>

Things to notice

<LI> Mentality is highly experimental, but linked with passing. This link was valid in FM06, and still works well.

<LI> Closing down for central defenders is linked with D-L and works very well

<LI> Closing down for fullbacks is linked to Width, and seems to work quite good. One problem can be when playing very narrow, since the fullbacks then close down in the middle and not only on the flanks

<LI> Radius theory still seems to be valid(i.e. fullback as mentioned above

<LI> Creative Freedom is something I just play around with at the moment, can be reason for low possession and low crossings

Hey

Currently in the process of creating my set of ROT tactics with a few reapplied theories.

I'm not sure when to use the 6 set of tactics.

How do i pick out an defensive tactic in contrast to an normal tactic. I hope you guys understand.

[supersaint]

Originally posted by ntfc:

Hey

Currently in the process of creating my set of ROT tactics with a few reapplied theories.

I'm not sure when to use the 6 set of tactics.

How do i pick out an defensive tactic in contrast to an normal tactic. I hope you guys understand.

I usually go by the layout of the AI tactic. Normal when they play 4-4-2 or similar with no arrows, and a defensive tactic when they got arrows. Defensive if they have a more attacking formation, ultradefensive if they have arrows or play 4-2-4.

Another way is to keep a close eye on their possession, and play defensive if they start to press you and go to a normal if you have possession. I havent tried this yet, but it could be one way to go

[ntfc]

Thanks SS

Would you also base your assumptions on media predictions and reputations?

If you still use your MSN account mate, don't forget to add me, have a new one now.

[supersaint]

Originally posted by ntfc:

Thanks SS

Would you also base your assumptions on media predictions and reputations?

If you still use your MSN account mate, don't forget to add me, have a new one now.

I havent done that until now, but it might be worth a try, because a team that is heavily favourites would be likely to attack you even when away. Same with high reputation clubs.

[ntfc]

One thing i have noticed about this version of the game , it is impossible to create an efficient attacking tactic.

The shot ratio, chances etc are very low

[Dayle Wood]

Sorry if this is teaching some people to suck eggs but for those that are still struggling and going through these forums with a magnifying glass let me try to help... mods and experts feel free to tear my thoughts to bits...

Firstly although this is stating the obvious when you create a tactic looking at your players strentghs nd weaknesses is crucial. Every player has weaknesses and strengths. You have to mould them around your tactic... for example....

1. If your player is not good at dribbling but is good passer don't give him 'runs with ball'. Conversely if he has good dribbling skills let let him have runs.

2. Give players with high creativity and decision making more creativity.

3. If a player likes to pass short then let him - play to his strength.

4. If player has good off the ball skills let him attack the ball in set pieces. He will be able to shake his marker better.

5. If a player is excellent at tackling then let him go in hard on players... make sure of course he has lower aggression.

These are just a few there are plenty more things. The best way to do it is pick your very best 11 and go through one player at a time checking his attributes and adjusting his instructions accordingly - this makes up your tactic template. Each time a player replaces them in the lineout for injury or whatever reason go through that players attributes and adjust the position instructions to tailor him. Do that before the game but don't save the changes unless he is to become the tactic template player - if that makes sense.

This is probably the key reason people are struggling to get their tactic right... BE meticulous!!!

I hope this helps someone.

[jorisvanhulst]

The RoT-system criticised.

First of all: English is not my first language. I expect to get criticised for my assumptions, but not for my spelling.

I've been using the RoT-system for more than a year, I used it in FM2006 too. I've always been a fan of the system because it helped me to get a lot of succes with my squad. Still, after some testing, I now disapprove with the system. I started to doubt this system a few weeks ago. I simply thought the whole idea was a bit far-fetched. (sp?)

The whole idea of the 15/5 split didn't really seem realistic, I just couldn't imagine the creators of the game deliborately implementing such a system. Like I said before, I too had a lot of succes with this system, so it must be doing something right. I'll first try to explain the pro's of the system, and after that the con's. Offcourse, this is all from my point of view, feel free to disagree and please, tell me if you do..

Reason behind the succes of RoT-system.

Basicly, my explanation for the succes of the RoT-system is because it's based on some good, logical assumptions. I think a lot of people that come in here don't know a lot about tactics. That's why pretty basic things like playing wide at home, narrow away, can make a lot of difference for them. Some of these basis assumptions are really good, and should be a starting point for any formation. However, I think it should really stick to being a good starting point, and I'll try to explain why.

Restrictions of the RoT-system.

The thing that seems to be going on right now is finding as much 'correlations' as possible. In other words, people try to link as much instructions together as they can. Like I said before, I just can't imagine SI creating a system where '15/5' would be a magical combination. Some of these correlations are good starting points, but I don't believe they should be taken so literal. Now; I could go on like this for hours, but I can imagine some people start to raise their eyebrows after having read "I believe" and "I can't imagine" for more than 30 times. That's why I'll get to the testing section. Unfortunately, I'm not at home, so I can't post any screenshots. If anyone is interested in these, I'll show some tonight.

Testing.

I'm not saying everybody should rely on these 'tests.' Also, I've not been experimenting a lot, simply because of a lack of time. I've just looked at my results from the last 5 seasons. In some of these seasons I was a very strict user of the RoT-system, every slider was at the perfect spot, following the assumptions in this thread. The last two seasons, I didn't use the RoT-system strictly. I used my common sense and my FM experience. Like I said before, the RoT-system is based on some very logical assumptions. Therefore, my own assumptions were for a large part overlapping with those of the RoT-system. The first season without the RoT-system, my team finished in the same place, with the same squad, except for 1-2 new players. The second season without the RoT-system, I finished a little higher then the prior year, winning the UEFA-cup too. I'll show more details later, I'm not able to do so right now.

Please note.

I'll post more details about the tactics I used tonight, whick I'm not able to do right now. Therefore, I realize that the testing section looks very sloppy right now. I also realize that my experiment is in no way valid, there are too many other factors playing a role in the rate of succes of my squad: injuries, bookings, players coming in and out.

Conclusion.

Like I said before, I'm not saying the RoT-system is not effective, because it is. All I've tried to do is relivate that succes. I think some of the assumptions of this system are a great starting point for newcomers to this game. However, what I really disagree with is trying to find as many correlations as possible. Whether I did or didn't use the RoT-system, there was no significant difference in performance.

[Verbal]

Great thread guys. I`ve read just over half and have re-thought my whole set-up, as it was garbage

I`m in my 2nd season with Wycombe, with us finishing just outside the play-offs in the first season (poor I know).

This season we started with 5 straight defeats and 6 red-cards (as well as 3 bad injuries). I then read this thread and made a new formation and here it is:

<fc fc fc>

MC MC

DM

DL DC DC DR

GK

The team instructions are:

Mentality = 9

Creative Freedom = 9

Passing = 9

Tempo = 8

Width = 8

Closing Down = 10

Time Wasting = 10

Defensive Line = 4

Tackling = Normal

Focus Passing - Mixed

Zonal Marking

Target Man supply - mixed

Target man box ticked.

--------------------------------------------

Thats the team settings, but the player settings are heavily edited and seem to over-ride everything apart from the effect of the D-line settings.

I`ll go through each players settings in sequence, if a change is not quoted the team instructions stay :

DL & DR = Closing Down 12

Forward Runs normal

Run with ball normal

Through Balls normal

Cross balls often from Deep to Target man

Zonal tight marking

------------------------------------------------

DC = Creative freedom 4

Closing Down 12

Forward runs rarely

Run with ball rarely

through balls normal

zonal tight marking

------------------------------------------------

DM = Creative freedom 5

Closing Down 13

Forward Runs normal

Run with ball rarely

through balls often

Cross ball rarely

Zonal tight marking

------------------------------------------------

FC (moving left or right)= Mentality 13

Forward runs often

Run with ball often

through balls often

Cross often from byline to target man

------------------------------------------------

The central striker has all the same settings as the FLC & FRC apart from normal crossing

Now, what happens during a match ?

Before I made this my team were having loads of problems. The DM was on top of the DC and the LB & RB were getting skinned all the time and every opposing cross caused a oposition goal.

Now with the tinkering of the D-line and closing down, there is a room between the DC & DM and the DM is now serving a purpose breaking up play. The fullbacks seem to keep a better line across the back than 4 now and don`t get beatean often and now when they do the DC are in place to defend the attack.

The main advantage of this formation is attacking play. The FLC & FRC players play as wingers if the ball comes up there side. they can then deliver to the FC or to the F at the opposite side from the cross as they always make a back-post run. All three forwards are listed as Target men and as a result the player crossing changes from playing it to the center or playing it deep to the back-post. This happens when the DL & DR cross from deep, as they also have two targets to play across too and as they do the F at the same side they are crossing from drops deep to collect any balls knocked back out.

In the games I`ve tried the formation I`ve beaten the two top teams in the league 4-0 & 3-0 as well as two 2-0 wins against other clubs.

Possession has been around the 50% mark, but in all the games the possession in the opposition area has been at least 17% to 12% in favour of my team.

Shots on goal are around the 17 per match area, but the strikers are still missing a lot due to being rubbish

This formation does seem to work so far, but I`ll keep you all updated to any changes and future results.

I would like to ask for suggestions to a variation of this formation for away games as my form away from home with my variation is poor. I`m currently playing the same formation, but the two wide forwards are pulled into midfield with arrows up to each corner. I`ve also put both the central midfielders onto tight zonal marking and I`m playing a slightly higher tempo on the counter attack. So far the results have been swayed by either injury of my players kicking people and being sent off (7 red cards in 11 games and yes i fine players and am playing normal tackling) so I havent really found out if it will work, but I`d love feed-back on how i should be setting up for games away from home.

[Garate]

Conclusion.

Like I said before, I'm not saying the RoT-system is not effective, because it is. All I've tried to do is relivate that succes. I think some of the assumptions of this system are a great starting point for newcomers to this game. However, what I really disagree with is trying to find as many correlations as possible. Whether I did or didn't use the RoT-system, there was no significant difference in performance.

jorisvanhulst,

I can see your point. However, maybe better than showing your testing you could explain your ideas about developing a tactic with RoT as a starting point.

For example, by supersaint's testing and by my experience, the 4-4-2 (and variations) with RoT struggles creating chances, I guess there is field for improvement there.

[jorisvanhulst]

I understand what you're saying Garate. I've been trying to create a solid 4-3-3 based on some RoT assumptions. What's a Dutchman without 4-3-3?

By the way: I had expected the position names to be changed for FM2007. I've always thought it was strange to call a winger a AML/AMR. In FM2006 the DML/DMR had changed into WBL/WBR, on this edition I had expected the AML/AMR to be replaced by WFL/WFR. (Wing forward.) It doesn't influence gameplay, but I think it's confusing for newcomers who want to create a 4-3-3 tactic..

Back to subject: with 4-3-3 the major problem seems to be it's inconsistency. I've taken my willem-II side to the champions league, where I beat both Barcelona and Chelsea in the group stage. However, I lost both return matches with 4-0.. I've decided to fall back on 4-4-2 for this year, because I managed to reach the CL second round, too much on the line to experiment right now.

[lameris]

Same problem here... another Dutchman trying to get a 4-3-3- to work. Glad to hear I'm not the only one...

I'm Feyenoord, which I'm sorry to say isn't as good a team as it used to be, and trying to play a 4-3-3 variant. Not conceding much goals: I've set up CD down in such a way that there is always a player with low CD who stays in his position behind a player with high CD (we call it "rugdekking" eh Joris?): seems to work quite well. Any thoughts on that?

My problem is I don't score too much either. usually have enough possession, over 50% at least, but not enough shots and a low crossing %, around 30%, while this should be a 4-3-3's strength. Working on it, but not making too much progress. Help would be appreciated.

[Garate]

Originally posted by jorisvanhulst:

I understand what you're saying Garate. I've been trying to create a solid 4-3-3 based on some RoT assumptions. What's a Dutchman without 4-3-3?

By the way: I had expected the position names to be changed for FM2007. I've always thought it was strange to call a winger a AML/AMR. In FM2006 the DML/DMR had changed into WBL/WBR, on this edition I had expected the AML/AMR to be replaced by WFL/WFR. (Wing forward.) It doesn't influence gameplay, but I think it's confusing for newcomers who want to create a 4-3-3 tactic..

Back to subject: with 4-3-3 the major problem seems to be it's inconsistency. I've taken my willem-II side to the champions league, where I beat both Barcelona and Chelsea in the group stage. However, I lost both return matches with 4-0.. I've decided to fall back on 4-4-2 for this year, because I managed to reach the CL second round, too much on the line to experiment right now.

In FM2006 my tactic originally was a 4-3-3, then it's become a sort of 4-4-2 diamond (wingers, DMC&AMC), since I play Lower League teams and suits better those players. However, I'm thinking on a 4-3-3 for situations when I'm down and really need to score: my idea is setting the 3 forward as rashidi1 suggests in this thread

Basically>

<----FL FC <--FR

[supersaint]

Originally posted by jorisvanhulst:

However, what I really disagree with is trying to find as many correlations as possible.

The reason why I have been doing these tests is just to see if there are some basic concepts of the game that every tactic should follow.

Main reason is because the engine have flaws, and will always have. It will never be able to totally reflect real life, so it can be hard to understand why things work - or dont work.

I remember in FM05 I struggled with defenders that went for any challenge regardless of tight marking or CD settings. The only thing that worked for me was to change their defensive mentality to a more attacking one, because then they "forgot" their defensive duties.

Another thing is that the game is about numbers. Everything you set in tactics is converted to numbers. Algorithms decides the outcome of the game, and the more you know about how settings relates to each other - the bigger chance it is that you will be unbeatable.

As I said, I myself have been doing these test to see if there are some basic rules that one should follow, that goes against what I consider to be logical within real life football.

The danger is when you take it too far, because then the game will be boring. Everyone makes unbeatable tactics, with no root in real life football.

So yes, I do agree with you that one shouldnt try to find too many correlations

About the ROT system: It seems to be less effective this time around like Garate said. Perhaps time for the Rule Of Three

[LoOnEY]

Hey lads, just a thought.

For High DL, it may not be neccessary to play all players on Low CD. This will result in players jogging, or running back after the opposition wins the ball.

Instead, try setting your attackers, at least 4 or 5 on high CD. This means once the opposition wins the ball, your attackers will pressure them asap. Once the ball is won, depending on the passing and tempo, the ball can be send back to your defensive players, and start another attack again.

Conversely, if you are playing with a Low DL, with plans to counter attack, set all your defensive players on high CD, and abt 3 or 4 attackers on low CD. Once the ball is won, these 4 attackers will be ready to receive the ball and start a fast counter.

Thanks.

[supersaint]

Originally posted by LoOnEY:

Hey lads, just a thought.

For High DL, it may not be neccessary to play all players on Low CD. This will result in players jogging, or running back after the opposition wins the ball.

Instead, try setting your attackers, at least 4 or 5 on high CD. This means once the opposition wins the ball, your attackers will pressure them asap. Once the ball is won, depending on the passing and tempo, the ball can be send back to your defensive players, and start another attack again.

Conversely, if you are playing with a Low DL, with plans to counter attack, set all your defensive players on high CD, and abt 3 or 4 attackers on low CD. Once the ball is won, these 4 attackers will be ready to receive the ball and start a fast counter.

Thanks.

I do it exactly like that, because it suits my style of play and it works... So yes you are IMO right in what you say

[wwfan]

In response the critical appraisal of the Rule of Two system:

I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying. I never intended the frameworks to be the 'rule' for '07. I only intended them to be used as a starting guide from which to base further tests. I have already concluded that changes have to be made as the tactics are not as effective as they were in '06. I would have been upset if they were as it would have meant the new game was worthless in terms of tactical evolution.

I have a few observations as to the reason why they are not as effective.

1: Forwards need to close down in '07, or you will get low possession stats. That was not the case in '06, where the 5/15 split worked wonders. CD for forwards needs to be revised, and we are beginning to do that. Rashidi's ideas seem to be the best option at the moment.

2: Defensive line has been reworked so the link with mentality, although there, is not as pronounced as previously. There seems to be links between d-line, passing, width and tempo. Experiments in these areas to come up with some known best values linking the four would be extremely useful.

3: Focus passing seems to have been heavily reworked. In '06, focus passing mixed at home and down both flanks away pretty much guaranteed success in RoT. Form early experiments, and it is this area I'm focusing on right now, there is a huge difference. My early ideas are:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI> Wide & focus down flanks works very well

<LI> Wide and mixed focus needs good players to work

<LI> Narrow and focus down flanks is a disaster rather than the ideal counter-attacking setting of '06.

<LI> Narrow and focus through the middle seems to be good for possession based defensive football

<LI> Narrow and focus through the middle may now be the best counter-attacking settings

<LI> Wide & down flanks needs longish passing to work

That's about the extent of my testing in this area at the moment, but I think focus passing is a bigger player than previously.

4: Target man works much better (maybe too well) and changing the type of balls to the TM is immediately obvious in 2D.

5: I'm assuming, as target man works better, playmaker will too, although I haven't tested.

6: FBs overlapping works properly and causes defences all types of problems.

7: There are others, but they can wait until I figure out how to combine focus passing, width, d-line, tempo and passing to maximise attacking options.

Ther have been a myriad of positive changes in the engine, and the increased complexity is obvious. The opening post in this thread was a sum-up of '06 and used as a series of starting assumptions for '07, just as the original TT&F was for '06. The difference between '06 and '07 was that we had no hard and fast assumptions to start from, and TT&F took a while to evolve. This time around I had the opening post ready in time for release and the response has been beyond my expectations. The level of tactical analysis and discussion has been exemplary, and both those that praise and criticise the RoT frameworks have contributed thought provoking essays.

About half way through the shelf-life of '06, TT&F I spawned a child thread, TT&F II: The Rebirth of Tactical Theory, which summed up the best known values and rewrote some of the misplaced assumptions of TT&F I. I fully expect this thread to require a major rewrite and a TT&F II for '07. However, we are far, far beyond the knowledge levels we had one year ago during '06, and that aim was my major intention. If the RoT framework needs to be deconstructed and replaced with a better option, so be it. The Rule of Three isn't so misplaced, as Sir Bobby is experimenting with it and having a great deal of success.

Don't be afraid or apologetic when criticising the frameworks or theorems. As long as the argument is logical, analytical, or based on qualitative observation, then it will be regarded as a vital part of the '07 knowledge base. Please feel free to knock down these theories and come up with better options. That way, everybody gets what they want.

All the best

wwfan

[MikeyMikez]

Hey really great threads guys. Well done. Been reading all over it and positively agrees. the RoT is not as effective as they are said to be.

I have restarted my Arsenal game using the RoT system. They played worse than my previous game which i have used my common sense and past experiences.

I thought i was the only one that opposes the RoT system doesnt appear that way now.

[ntfc]

Originally posted by rashidi1:

Set your DLine based on your formation first before you decide anything else. Then work on your mentality, and then closing down instructions. To reiterate, I have a 343 with a DM its D line is 6, I also have a 424 its d line is 12. They both work brilliantly. I have only conceded 6 goals in 22 matches.

Personally Rashidi's post^^^^ highlights an interesting point.

FOCUS: Should the DL differ when you employ an defensive midfielder?

[ntfc]

Just a few things i have noticed so far

> A width setting off 12 is sufficient

> Keeping all player's creativity below 11

> Giving your offensive unit high pressing.

[Chasbien]

@ wwfan

6: FBs overlapping works properly and causes defences all types of problems.

can you please tell me how to get this working many thanks

[Bademesteren]

Originally posted by Chasbien:

@ wwfan

6: FBs overlapping works properly and causes defences all types of problems.

can you please tell me how to get this working many thanks

Some uses the swap position for this...

[wwfan]

Originally posted by Chasbien:

@ wwfan

6: FBs overlapping works properly and causes defences all types of problems.

can you please tell me how to get this working many thanks

Unfortunately not, as I only see it happening against me. It is a bitch to defend against. Rest assured, if I get it working I'll post the settings in this thread.

[Giantplaything]

Hi all.

I've just read the 10 pages of this outstanding thread and its been a massive help to me as my tactics were a bit poo.

I wonder If its possible to collate some of the info gained from testing and add it to the original wwfan post. It would make it a hell of a lot easier to read.

Its just a suggestion so if theres no 1 with any spare time to do it then thats fine.

------TT&F '07------

the gospel for those who have lost faith in their own tactics.

[Guest Rafalution]

Bah, currently I find myself tweaking different settings so frequently I begin to wonder if it is even possible to achieve or maintain decent consistancy this way. Maybe it's time to start afresh.

I noticed something interesting in the manual though, regarding defensive line and mentality:

Also consider like-minded/positioned players - your defensive line, for example, should be within a similar range of mentalitites to ensure they stay together as a cohesive unit.

So that means in a back four of defenders, all four should have equal mentalities?

And another thing from the manual regarding mentalities:

As a general instructionit will guide your team and control how they play. Individually it will instruct players where to generally line up and how agressive to be. Typically, mentalities should be balanced across the team.

Probably not rocket science as mentality as a positioning tool is well known from FM 06, but I never saw the manual confirm it. And it should indicate that this is still, or even more, the case in FM 07. Most importantly though, it seems team mentality is a vital factor even when every player has his own individual mentality setting. What I don't understand is the phrase "how aggressive to be", as it would make more sense if it said "how attacking to be". Perhaps the meaning is the same?

[jtgarton]

Originally posted by wwfan:

In response the critical appraisal of the Rule of Two system:

I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying. I never intended the frameworks to be the 'rule' for '07. I only intended them to be used as a starting guide from which to base further tests. I have already concluded that changes have to be made as the tactics are not as effective as they were in '06. I would have been upset if they were as it would have meant the new game was worthless in terms of tactical evolution.

I have a few observations as to the reason why they are not as effective.

1: Forwards need to close down in '07, or you will get low possession stats. That was not the case in '06, where the 5/15 split worked wonders. CD for forwards needs to be revised, and we are beginning to do that. Rashidi's ideas seem to be the best option at the moment.

2: Defensive line has been reworked so the link with mentality, although there, is not as pronounced as previously. There seems to be links between d-line, passing, width and tempo. Experiments in these areas to come up with some known best values linking the four would be extremely useful.

3: Focus passing seems to have been heavily reworked. In '06, focus passing mixed at home and down both flanks away pretty much guaranteed success in RoT. Form early experiments, and it is this area I'm focusing on right now, there is a huge difference. My early ideas are:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI> Wide & focus down flanks works very well

<LI> Wide and mixed focus needs good players to work

<LI> Narrow and focus down flanks is a disaster rather than the ideal counter-attacking setting of '06.

<LI> Narrow and focus through the middle seems to be good for possession based defensive football

<LI> Narrow and focus through the middle may now be the best counter-attacking settings

<LI> Wide & down flanks needs longish passing to work

That's about the extent of my testing in this area at the moment, but I think focus passing is a bigger player than previously.

4: Target man works much better (maybe too well) and changing the type of balls to the TM is immediately obvious in 2D.

5: I'm assuming, as target man works better, playmaker will too, although I haven't tested.

6: FBs overlapping works properly and causes defences all types of problems.

7: There are others, but they can wait until I figure out how to combine focus passing, width, d-line, tempo and passing to maximise attacking options.

Ther have been a myriad of positive changes in the engine, and the increased complexity is obvious. The opening post in this thread was a sum-up of '06 and used as a series of starting assumptions for '07, just as the original TT&F was for '06. The difference between '06 and '07 was that we had no hard and fast assumptions to start from, and TT&F took a while to evolve. This time around I had the opening post ready in time for release and the response has been beyond my expectations. The level of tactical analysis and discussion has been exemplary, and both those that praise and criticise the RoT frameworks have contributed thought provoking essays.

About half way through the shelf-life of '06, TT&F I spawned a child thread, TT&F II: The Rebirth of Tactical Theory, which summed up the best known values and rewrote some of the misplaced assumptions of TT&F I. I fully expect this thread to require a major rewrite and a TT&F II for '07. However, we are far, far beyond the knowledge levels we had one year ago during '06, and that aim was my major intention. If the RoT framework needs to be deconstructed and replaced with a better option, so be it. The Rule of Three isn't so misplaced, as Sir Bobby is experimenting with it and having a great deal of success.

Don't be afraid or apologetic when criticising the frameworks or theorems. As long as the argument is logical, analytical, or based on qualitative observation, then it will be regarded as a vital part of the '07 knowledge base. Please feel free to knock down these theories and come up with better options. That way, everybody gets what they want.

All the best

wwfan

good post. Maybe if others posted specific changes to the o6 rules then it will be easier for everyone to adapt.

[wwfan]

Originally posted by Rafalution:

Bah, currently I find myself tweaking different settings so frequently I begin to wonder if it is even possible to achieve or maintain decent consistancy this way. Maybe it's time to start afresh.

I noticed something interesting in the manual though, regarding defensive line and mentality:

Also consider like-minded/positioned players - your defensive line, for example, should be within a similar range of mentalitites to ensure they stay together as a cohesive unit.

So that means in a back four of defenders, all four should have equal mentalities?

And another thing from the manual regarding mentalities:

As a general instructionit will guide your team and control how they play. Individually it will instruct players where to generally line up and how agressive to be. Typically, mentalities should be balanced across the team.

Probably not rocket science as mentality as a positioning tool is well known from FM 06, but I never saw the manual confirm it. And it should indicate that this is still, or even more, the case in FM 07. Most importantly though, it seems team mentality is a vital factor even when every player has his own individual mentality setting. What I don't understand is the phrase "how aggressive to be", as it would make more sense if it said "how attacking to be". Perhaps the meaning is the same?

I have read both of these in the manual and taken them on board. It seems that the 12 mentality split (6-18) in the RoT framework may be too pronounced. I have already experimented with different splits, but am yet to come up with any hard and fast conclusions. I may start looking at a Ro3 with the defence being 9, midfield 12 and attack 15 to see if that offers more cohesive play. I certainly think that fits better with the manual guide.

[Uncle Sam]

Some of the changes to the match engine seem to be fit in better with real football principles.

Take for example, the new data that suggests a high defensive line may now work better with the more defensive tactics. This makes sense since defensive tactics usually are compact, short and tight so as to close of space and more players around the ball to force the opposition to play long or hopeful balls by filling the gaps and cutting off passing lanes.

It also makes more sense that focus down the middle passing would be more effective as a counter attacking tactic since when a team attacks they will generally play wide meaning the passing lanes will be through the centre of the field rather than the flanks.

[FourThreeThree]

Originally posted by supersaint:

My apologies for the confusion I have brought on to you guys. Guess it gets that way when your brain is full of tactical stuff all the time and you have slept way too little for 5 nights

Home vs 4-3-2-2-1

4-3-2-2-1 ????? Thats a formation with 12 players. Better get some rest, looks like you need it.

[Ans Gulrik]

Concerning Defensive line: Seems to be tied to Closing down, which is also the realistic approach.

IRL a high defensive line is tied to the off side rule. You can only allow yourself to play with a high line, if you keep the player in possesion under pressure, in order to prevent him from passing at the right time, and thus breaking the off side trap. To push up, without closing down, is suicide IRL, and among the first things managers try to teach footballers. The two goals Germany conceeded to Costa Rica at the World Cup is a prime example.

It has not always been the case in FM, but it seems to be now. At least I get very impressive results with this approach.

[jaycar]

Originally posted by wwfan:

I may start looking at a Ro3 with the defence being 9, midfield 12 and attack 15 to see if that offers more cohesive play. I certainly think that fits better with the manual guide.

i generally play with the 'blocks' on the same mentalities, it seems to do the trick in a 4-4-2 and seems to fit in with what the manual says about the 'grouping'

settings are:

def lowest setting of mixed

Mid dead centre mixed

Att highest centre mixed.

this is to get the various blocks to act as units, without the massive gaps. i dont like my attackers on to high a ment, i like them to do their share of the defensive work too.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Ans Gulrik:

Concerning Defensive line: Seems to be tied to Closing down, which is also the realistic approach.

IRL a high defensive line is tied to the off side rule. You can only allow yourself to play with a high line, if you keep the player in possesion under pressure, in order to prevent him from passing at the right time, and thus breaking the off side trap. To push up, without closing down, is suicide IRL, and among the first things managers try to teach footballers. The two goals Germany conceeded to Costa Rica at the World Cup is a prime example.

It has not always been the case in FM, but it seems to be now. At least I get very impressive results with this approach.

So you think making the CD identical to the D Line perhaps? At the moment im mirroring the D line and the CD (example D line 12 CD 8).

[Ans Gulrik]

Originally posted by nonleague:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ans Gulrik:

Concerning Defensive line: Seems to be tied to Closing down, which is also the realistic approach.

IRL a high defensive line is tied to the off side rule. You can only allow yourself to play with a high line, if you keep the player in possesion under pressure, in order to prevent him from passing at the right time, and thus breaking the off side trap. To push up, without closing down, is suicide IRL, and among the first things managers try to teach footballers. The two goals Germany conceeded to Costa Rica at the World Cup is a prime example.

It has not always been the case in FM, but it seems to be now. At least I get very impressive results with this approach.

So you think making the CD identical to the D Line perhaps? At the moment im mirroring the D line and the CD (example D line 12 CD 8). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be a way to put it. I don't use the global slider myself, but my defence and DM are on the same amount of CD. If the defensive line is deep they stay in their positions (DL 6, CD 6), but if I push up, they also close down.

Seems to work because: When DF is high the threat is mainly from rather lonely strikers, who needs support, which high CD prevents them from receiving. When DF is low, short passing and crosses are the threat, and defensive players staying in their positions are better suited to stop these sorts of threats.

[Noel Gallagher]

The way forward for me with mentalities is to have everyone on normal, so they're all attacking and defending as a unit, but having them on different variants of normal.

I don't tend to have any player set as defensive or attacking anymore.

There are defensive & attacking variants of normal. For example, 7 is the most defensive option of normal you can select, and 14 is the most attacking option for normal.

So, for a winger, I would have them on mentality of 13 or 14, attacking midfielders either 13 or 14. Strikers, 14. Defenders 7, full backs 9 or 10, defensive midfielders 8 or 9.

I have started to do the same with closing down and creative freedom. The team play results in things being more compact and not as many huge gaps between different positions.

Now i've fixed my laptop, i'm really getting into all this tactical stuff again!

[supersaint]

Originally posted by Ans Gulrik:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nonleague:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ans Gulrik:

Concerning Defensive line: Seems to be tied to Closing down, which is also the realistic approach.

IRL a high defensive line is tied to the off side rule. You can only allow yourself to play with a high line, if you keep the player in possesion under pressure, in order to prevent him from passing at the right time, and thus breaking the off side trap. To push up, without closing down, is suicide IRL, and among the first things managers try to teach footballers. The two goals Germany conceeded to Costa Rica at the World Cup is a prime example.

It has not always been the case in FM, but it seems to be now. At least I get very impressive results with this approach.

So you think making the CD identical to the D Line perhaps? At the moment im mirroring the D line and the CD (example D line 12 CD 8). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be a way to put it. I don't use the global slider myself, but my defence and DM are on the same amount of CD. If the defensive line is deep they stay in their positions (DL 6, CD 6), but if I push up, they also close down.

Seems to work because: When DF is high the threat is mainly from rather lonely strikers, who needs support, which high CD prevents them from receiving. When DF is low, short passing and crosses are the threat, and defensive players staying in their positions are better suited to stop these sorts of threats. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Problem for me with this, was that they DC was being dragged out of position when playing with a high D-L. If the ball was played from deep within the AIs half down the flanks, my DCs were closing down there, leaving their man in the middle. This meant that the AI would always have one man that was free when they counter-attacked me.

Playing with a deep D-L and low closing down, got me into trouble with players around the egde of the area. If the DMC had lost his man, my DCs didnt close him down leaving him free to place a shot.

The best solution for me was to mirror it(High D-L, low closing down on CD to keep them in the center when AI counter attacks, Low D-L and high closing down on CD to get them into free men around the egde of the penalty area).

But I think that its possible to do it both ways. It just depends on what problems your team has and what kind of players that are available to you.

But as wwfan said, there is more to the D-L than this. It is also linked to your style of play(mentality, passing, width, tempo).

Im currently testing out this. I left the Leeds job because I was tired of the chairman, wage budget restrictions and players not willing to join me. After a couple of months I got a job at N.Forest in League One, placed 19th after 24 matches.

I decided to set up a tactic with SW-DC-DC-MC-MC-AMR-AML-AMC-AMC-SC, and based the D-L on what wwfan mentioned. First season ended with 3rd place.

Now Ive set up a 4-4-1-1 tactic, with the same combination of mentality, passing and tempo. Then based my D-L and the width based on these. So far its looking good, I havent conceded a goal in 5 matches, and my possession has been between 50 and 60% in all matches.

The only thing is that I score too few goals with this tactic too, which I think is down to the ROT. Therefore Im gonna experiment with the Ro3, to see if this would help.

Im gonna post the results when the season is finished

[Guest Rafalution]

Originally posted by Ans Gulrik:

Concerning Defensive line: Seems to be tied to Closing down, which is also the realistic approach.

IRL a high defensive line is tied to the off side rule. You can only allow yourself to play with a high line, if you keep the player in possesion under pressure, in order to prevent him from passing at the right time, and thus breaking the off side trap. To push up, without closing down, is suicide IRL, and among the first things managers try to teach footballers. The two goals Germany conceeded to Costa Rica at the World Cup is a prime example.

It has not always been the case in FM, but it seems to be now. At least I get very impressive results with this approach.

[Guest Rafalution]

Heh.. Nice one

What Ans Gulrik says make sense. Brazil was destroying Ghana when Ghana played a very high D-line without closing down effectively. Ronaldinho had a treat with excellent through balls to his teammates.

[ntfc]

Originally posted by Noel Gallagher:

The way forward for me with mentalities is to have everyone on normal, so they're all attacking and defending as a unit, but having them on different variants of normal.

I don't tend to have any player set as defensive or attacking anymore.

There are defensive & attacking variants of normal. For example, 7 is the most defensive option of normal you can select, and 14 is the most attacking option for normal.

So, for a winger, I would have them on mentality of 13 or 14, attacking midfielders either 13 or 14. Strikers, 14. Defenders 7, full backs 9 or 10, defensive midfielders 8 or 9.

I have started to do the same with closing down and creative freedom. The team play results in things being more compact and not as many huge gaps between different positions.

Now i've fixed my laptop, i'm really getting into all this tactical stuff again!

Sounds very logical Noel, will apply this.

[Noel Gallagher]

I've actually applied a global closing down of 13 recently. Seems to be working quite well, along with having a DLine of 7 and defenders having a mentality of 7, full backs 9, defensive midfielder 9.

[ntfc]

You employ the same tactic for Home and Away Noel?