Tactical Theorems and Frameworks '07

[wwfan]

Originally posted by Tini:

Hmm. I've had mixed success using this theorems as a basis.

First was Chelesa. Finished first, won everything, pretty much. No problems.

Next up Fulham. Finished 7th, won the FA Cup. Overachieved massively on the whole and was really impressed.

Now I'm playing as Watford, and I'm having major issues. I have huge problems getting more than 45% possession - I'm lucky if I top about 42%. I'm playing with a 4-1-4-1 for numerous reasons (I'm having major issues with injuries for my strikers - and a lot of them aren't very good, with my best one being out injured). Shots in general are okay now that I've deepened my defensive line, but they have a horrible conversion rate (possibly down to team quality? But for example I just lost 4-1 to Portsmouth, at home. They're in 15th and I'm in 18th.)

Playing with a DMC, no farrows on the FBs; short farrows on the wingers, and a darrow to the regular AMC spot for one of my midfielders. Mentalities in general follow RoT, although I play with a deep defensive line. Occasionally add 2 to the passing mentality due to the Mid-Quality Assumption.

Any advice in the hope of raising possession? For a better illustration of the problem, posession stats away at Lincoln were an embarressing 58%-42% in favour of them.

Cheers.

Time-wasting settings? Counter-attacking? Width? FWRs?

When playing Lincoln you should switch systems due to your massive superiority.

[Tini]

Time wasting is two notches above the middle. Counter attacking on, as the opposition are often getting 10+ shots against me. Width is set to 15 at home, 5 away.

Yeah, I realised in hindsight I should've done. But if I'm getting such a small amount of possession against such an inferior team it shows there's something wrong with how the system is holding possession in the first place.

[wwfan]

Originally posted by Tini:

Time wasting is two notches above the middle. Counter attacking on, as the opposition are often getting 10+ shots against me. Width is set to 15 at home, 5 away.

Yeah, I realised in hindsight I should've done. But if I'm getting such a small amount of possession against such an inferior team it shows there's something wrong with how the system is holding possession in the first place.

I would start paying a lot of attention to the pre-match odds and pick formations related to them. For most Premiership matches (when odds are againsty you) I would be looking at a narrow, counter attacking sytem, with low FWRs for the back 5. Direct passing, no farrows, sarrowed DCs. Time-waste to 15, width to 5, focus down flanks. D-line to 12-14 if you have a DMC, a little higher if a flat midfield. Get a few results with this system to get morale up, and then you can try a wider, looser formation. Even so, for the Lincolns of this world, wide and loose is the name of the game, with slower tempo and shorter passing.

Please report back after a few games with this adjustments so I can see if it is making any difference.

[Tini]

Okay, I've given it a shot. Results came as follows:

4-3 win against Portsmouth at home.

0-0 draw with Sheff Utd at home.

2-0 win in the replay against Lincoln at home.

1-1 draw with Wigan, away.

Possession hasn't really increased. The only match I tried the wide tactic was Lincoln and whilst they still had 55% possession they only got 1 shot on goal. Was this as a result?

The rest of the matches were with the narrow, counter attack. Again, no real increase in possession but things are a bit tighter at the back now.

Also, I haven't said thanks for the advice so far, you've been ace. Ta. :]

[joshantmann]

Just played a few friendlies with the away formation wwfan, and watched the whole matches at quite a slow pace to se what was happening.What was clear that having the defensive line high with a dmc was virtually like playing with 5 defenders.the dmc just sat infront of the dc's all the time.Which is great for defence, but left a huge hole when attacking.Also i noticed that having closing down on rare meant that any balls down the wings, had to be chased by the wingers,and the full backs just sat off.Maybe having closing down on normal to often on the full backs may help a bit?What tempo and style of team passing would you recommend for away games?

[joshantmann]

Ive also noticed that the central defenders will sit off attacking midfielders when they charge at them, and sometimes just let them pass.Now is this down to closing down being on rare?Or something to do with the marking?I have it on tight zonal marking, but i just think that is wrong.Although man marking was shoddy in fm06, i may turn to it in this edition.

[wwfan]

Originally posted by Tini:

Okay, I've given it a shot. Results came as follows:

4-3 win against Portsmouth at home.

0-0 draw with Sheff Utd at home.

2-0 win in the replay against Lincoln at home.

1-1 draw with Wigan, away.

Possession hasn't really increased. The only match I tried the wide tactic was Lincoln and whilst they still had 55% possession they only got 1 shot on goal. Was this as a result?

The rest of the matches were with the narrow, counter attack. Again, no real increase in possession but things are a bit tighter at the back now.

Also, I haven't said thanks for the advice so far, you've been ace. Ta. :]

The advice I gave you won't be possession friendly. As for the Lincoln game, you should get high possession, but I wouldn't worry about it if they only got one shot on goal. I can't experiment on why as yet, but Rashidi's theory is to CD with the strikers.

@ joshantmann

Too many variables to consider to determine why the FBs allow too much space. FWRs on wingers, farrows on wingers, quality of opposition etc.

As for tempo, try quickish with direct passing. Also, try to CD with the front 2.

[der]

@wwfan

when the other squade has a very good player, like werder bremen,klose, what do you think, when i let him mark tight, from some player, wich player should i take???

[der]

and then i have another problem, i just played against werder bremen @ home, i used the tactic RoT solid form "el padre", and i lost 1-0, i watched the full game, and saw that my team looses a lot of

balls in the midfield, i also get a lot of goals on standard situations, what should i do???

[Mighty Red]

I think d-line settings are vital. There needs to be a lot of thought put into how they work for ’07. Supersaint’s theory seems to be the best on offer at the moment. Deep = high CD (mirrored d-line + CD = 20). High = low CD (mirrored d-line + CD = 20). Further testing and thought gratefully received.

Difficult to pin this one down, I think it is logical that if you are playing a high line then don't close down - or this will create gaps (e.g. where DC will go forwards and leave a gap for strikers to exploit + be onside).

Also, playing a low d-line is naturally a more defensive way of playing (unless the oppo has creative, dribbling players i.e. Henry) and will therefore reduce the number of goals conceded.

However - I am not sure that the mirroring system works, but am happy to say that you cannot (normally) have both a high line and high closing down, and if you are deep then you must close down. Also, it would be interesting to test how this pans out without using a DMC. (i.e. playing deep without a DMC may expose you to play immediately in front of your back four. This could probably be countered by a MCd - but settings for this kind of player need to be spot on, and therefore not ideal recommendation to a tactical n00b).

Just my thought after doing a couple of 10 game tests.

[der]

look at this picture, i'm juventus, i used the RoT tactic "home" from "el padre", but every game is like this:

[castrol]

Der: I allso play whit juve, and i have the same problem :-(

Right now i am trying to create my own formation, but damn its hard

[der]

probably it is like is only with juventus, good to hear that i'm not alone

[scottn72]

I also use El Padres' tactic but find you have to alter it during the game according to the oppositions change in formation, sometimes even switching between the home and away tactic during the game. I posted some possible ideas in his thread.

[MaVeRiXxX]

Anyone came up with a basic formation that seems to work pretty well?

I'm using this right now:

And I'm just not getting the score-lines I'd like, even though that's probably down to my team not being a real team, yet...

The footie they play seems ok, good possession, good passing (all short), lots of interceptions, but they just can't seem to attack, dominate, and score...

Tried most things like raising DL, more and less CD, more and less CF, raising mentality. I even tried Counter Attack, and that kind of worked, but that's just not the footie I want to play...know what I mean?

So I want to continue this formation, because I really like it (CB's do their job excellent, FB's as well even though they come late every now and then against long and short farrowed wingers in opposition 4-4-2 line formation. DMC does a lot of good work overall, but the rest just doesn't seem up for outplaying any side...

And most of my players still have about 75 to 80 % condition left as well.

Anyone tested anything that worked so far?

Cheers, R.

[Guest]

Thanks for all wwfan.

Have been struggling, tweeking everything, but this is well worth a read....makes a lot of sense, and has helped me a load.

Nice one and cheers!

[mal9ball]

I have implemented the RoT ideas, with some success. I like how the players seem to pass around quite nicely, and with some freedom.

The creative freedom will help you, but it is sensible to keep your Defence pretty static in terms of freedom so they do not stray too far.

I also find tweaking the defensive line height is also important so you don't stifle your DMc operations!

It works! Enjoying following this thread and reading your excellent postings on tactics!

[Guest]

hi

ive been makeing a tatic using your frameworks

ive got a basic flat 4-4-2 as westham

now i used the rule of two instructions for all my players e.g

but im not sure what instructions i should have for the following-

defensive line? i did read somewhere that if using a defensive midfielder the defensive line and him should be slightly different so that he does not get dragged into the d-line

team mentality?

team width?

goalkeeper instructions?

also should i have both my strikers on the same instructions?

thanks for the help and great work wwfan

[tapman]

first of all great topic!

i tried making a tactic for my club brugge-squad following the RoT-system and so on.

at this moment it is not that great, sometimes it's ok and sometimes it's not...

and one thing that i have in mind as being not correctly set up is the Level Assumptions:

setting everything up as described in the first post it is for a top team.

what i want to ask now is, what is club brugge? they are with anderlecht the top in belgium, but they are not so technically strong, more physically and mentally.

should i take the Mid-Quality Team Assumptions in mind for brugge?

could somebody please give me what this means practically???

[mr.rooney]

Originally posted by wwfan:

@ mr.rooney: I wasn't suggesting you did. When I was writing the notes section I was scribbling down random thoughts in my head. The 2nd paragraph wasn't meant to have any connection with the first. I'm sorry if you read it that way. It wasn't my intention.

Sorry about that. I didn't think you had written it that way.

[mr.rooney]

I'm once again going to try and get a decent set of TT&F tactics working. This is my understanding of the 4-way tactical system. I would be interested in testing things that you are unsure about wwfan.

Home

Team Instructions:

Width 15

Time wasting 5

D-line 10

Goalkeeper:

Mentality 15

Creative Freedom/Closing Down 3

DCs:

Mentality 6

Closing Down 17

Creative Freedom 3

Passing 14

Tight Marking

Through balls mixed, others rarely

DMC:

Mentality 8

Closing down 15

Creative Freedom 5

Passing 12

Tight Marking

Through balls often, everything else mixed

DL/DR:

Mentality 10

Closing Down 15

Creative Freedom 5

Passing 10

Tight Marking

Cross Ball often, everything else down to player ability

ML/MR:

Mentality 12

Closing Down 10

Creative Freedom 10

Passing 8

Forward Runs, Cross Ball Often, everything else depending on player ability

FCd:

Mentality 14

Closing Down 3

Creative Freedom 17 (This player is Wayne Rooney, so i'll experiment with 3/17 mirror)

Passing 6

Free Role

Forward Runs often, everything else mixed

AMC: Mentality 16

Closing Down 5

Creative Freedom 15

Passing 4

Forward Runs Often, crossing rarely, everything else mixed

FCa:

Mentality 18

Closing Down 5

Creative Freedom 15

Passing 2

Forward Runs often, everything else mixed

4-2-3-1 Away (Long farrowed Wingers)

Changes are:

Width 5

Time Wasting 10

Closing Down 5 to everyone

Counter Attack Ticked

d-line 14

Defend Lead:

DMC forward runs rarely

DL/DR forward runs rarely

ML/MR forward runs mixed

Counter Attack Ticked

Timewasting 10

d-line 14

3-3-2-1-1

D-line 5

Attacking players forward runs often

timewasting 5

slow or fast tempo? (please confirm)

Please tell me if I've missed anything. I really hope these tactics get me enjoying the game again.

Thanks.

[xavierm]

I've had pretty good success with applying the ROT ideas in my tactics.

I built 6 tactics (three home, three away : Attacking, Normal, Defending). I'm now in my third season and except away against very strong European teams, I always start with Home Normal.

The 6 tactics are based on a 4-4-2 system :

I'm doing some fair results with my team (Nice, France). Finished second in French First League during the first year, struggled and won the title next year, while reaching the quarter finals of the Champions League (beaten 4-3 by Barcelona )

If someone is interested by my tactics ... I'd be happy to have some feedback.

(it's basically a tweaked implementation of the ROT tactic ...)

[Nino]

It is sick to win in Valencia with Lazio 4-0 in Uefa Cup, 5-0 home Milan and then-> against Sampdoria 0-3 away, Palermo 0-2 home, Lecce 3-1 home, Partizan 1-2 away in UC, Inter 0-4 away, and Roma 4-1 home win, Mantova 1-1 away, Empoli 1-1 home... what kind of results are this? This supposed to be reality game and now I am reading I have to change my tactics every 10-15 games (because tactics becomes my preffered tactic in my game profile ) or similiar. I make good tactic, it works for 3-4 games but then... (look at results up)

I am going back to the FM 2006. This is complete wast of my money and next FM I wont buy for sure. I WAS QUIET TILL NOW, BUT ATFER TRYING OVER 50 TACTICS FOR AT LEAST 10 GAMES AND PLAYING FM2007 FOR OVER 40hrs - I GIVE UP.

[kernohg]

xavierm Been struggling with tactics for ages. Would really like to see your tactics with instructions etc. can you post them on hear

[Brellier]

im having decent success with my 4132 based on my "split tactic" theory (eg that the defensive 5 are for the defending, the attacking 5 for attacking). The tactic as well as an explanation etc is in my thread if anyone wants to give it a whirl.

Its not a killer, but its effective and scores a lot of goals which makes the game more fun.

Now if i can only get set pieces and training sorted out.....

[wwfan]

Instead of answering individual posts, I have read through the forums, taken into account complaints and successes, and come up with the following ideas. Hope you can use them.

Tactical Systems

Disclaimer

These are hugely experimental and have had no testing at all. They are the result of forum reading and analysis and I would love for people to try them out and report back. They may not work; they may work fantastically well. What is life without a risk?

Key Instruction

Keep an eye on the formation screen throughout the match so you can switch tactics when the AI does.

Basic Instructions

All of the instructions are intended for a 4-4-2 Diamond. Please read the opening post for a more complete understanding of individual instructions etc. This post contradicts some of those instructions due to its experimental nature.

Further Experiments

Shorten passing for the home tactics

Lengthen passing for the away tactics

D-Line is hugely experimental and follows supersaint’s theories. It may be that RoT instructions need to become more defensive as the d-line is too high away. If that is the case reduce RoT by 2 or 4 throughout, and drop d-line by the corresponding notch.

Offside Trap is also hugely experimental. Turn it off if it is not working.

Home v The 3-3-2-1-1

Mentality: RoT

Width: 17

Time Wasting: 3

Farrows: Long on wingers, short on FBs

Barrows: None

Sarrows: None

FWRs: Often for all except DMC (mixed) and DCs (rarely)

Tempo: 3

D-Line: 3

CD for Defenders: DCs 17, FBs 15, DMC 15

CD for Attackers: FCs 3, AMC 5, wingers 10

CF for Defenders: DCs 3, FBs 5, DMC 5

CF for Attackers: FCs 17, AMC 15, wingers 10

Counter-Attack: No

Offside Trap: No

Home v Defensive Systems

Mentality: RoT

Width: 15

Time Wasting: 5

Farrows: Long on wingers

Barrows: None

Sarrows: None

FWRs: Often for all except DMC & FBs (mixed) and DCs (rarely)

Tempo: 5

D-Line: 5

CD for Defenders: DCs 15, FBs 15, DMC 15

CD for Attackers: FCs 5, AMC 5, wingers 10

CF for Defenders: DCs 3, FBs 5, DMC 5

CF for Attackers: FCs 15, AMC 15, wingers 10

Counter-Attack: No

Offside Trap: No

Home v Normal Systems

Mentality: RoT

Width: 12

Time Wasting: 8

Farrows: Short on wingers

Barrows: Short on AMC

Sarrows: None

FWRs: Often for all except DMC, FBs & wingers (mixed) and DCs (rarely)

Tempo: 8

D-Line: 8

CD for Defenders: DCs 12, FBs 12, DMC 15

CD for Attackers: FCs 8, AMC 8, wingers 10

CF for Defenders: DCs 3, FBs 5, DMC 5

CF for Attackers: FCs 15, AMC 15, wingers 10

Counter-Attack: No

Offside Trap: No

Away v Normal Systems

Mentality: RoT

Width: 8

Time Wasting: 12

Farrows: Short on wingers

Barrows: Short on AMC

Sarrows: None

FWRs: Often for all except FBs & wingers (mixed) and DMC, DCs (rarely)

Tempo: 12

D-Line: 12

CD for Defenders: DCs 8, FBs 8, DMC 12

CD for Attackers: FCs 12, AMC 12, wingers 14

CF for Defenders: DCs 3, FBs 5, DMC 5

CF for Attackers: FCs 15, AMC 15, wingers 10

Counter-Attack: Yes

Offside Trap: Yes

Away v Attacking Systems

Mentality: RoT

Width: 5

Time Wasting: 15

Farrows: None

Barrows: Short on AMC

Sarrows: FCs

FWRs: Often for all except wingers (mixed) and DMC, FBs & DCs (rarely)

Tempo: 15

D-Line: 15

CD for Defenders: DCs 5, FBs 5, DMC 9

CD for Attackers: FCs 15, AMC 15, wingers 17

CF for Defenders: DCs 3, FBs 5, DMC 5

CF for Attackers: FCs 15, AMC 15, wingers 5

Counter-Attack: Yes

Offside Trap: Yes

Away v Ultra Attacking Systems

Mentality: RoT

Width: 3

Time Wasting: 17

Farrows: None

Barrows: Short on AMC & wingers

Sarrows: FCs

FWRs: Often for all except wingers, DMC, FBs & DCs (rarely)

Tempo: 17

D-Line: 17

CD for Defenders: DCs 3, FBs 3, DMC 6

CD for Attackers: FCs 18, AMC 18, wingers 20

CF for Defenders: DCs 1, FBs 3, DMC 3

CF for Attackers: FCs 15, AMC 15, wingers 3

Counter-Attack: Yes

Offside Trap: Yes

Testing

Testing all 6 formations will take a while. Please post any findings, positive or negative, about these systems. Good luck and thanks to those that decide to try them out.

[Brellier]

wwfan:

My view is that the mistake a lot of people are making is the belief that you must always change tactics when the other team does. This is not the case imo.

Look at it like you would in real life, if you are playing in a match against a team with inferior players, then let them try and stop you not the other way round. Stick to your formation and style. Often when the AI is changing formation it is because you are having success.

The time to change tactics and look at the oppostion is when you are up against a team which is better than you, where you are the underdogs. In this situation it is unlikely that you can beat them in a straight match up, therefor you need to look for the tactical advantage. Look for weakness's and exploit them.

This is the theory im using with my split tactic and works well in the first scenario, i still need practice at how to best execute the second one but i believe it can be done in this way without as much countering/changing as suggested in parts of this thread.

Not meaning to belittle the work you have put in, just floating an alternative idea/approach.

[wwfan]

Originally posted by Brellier:

wwfan:

My view is that the mistake a lot of people are making is the belief that you must always change tactics when the other team does. This is not the case imo.

Look at it like you would in real life, if you are playing in a match against a team with inferior players, then let them try and stop you not the other way round. Stick to your formation and style. Often when the AI is changing formation it is because you are having success.

The time to change tactics and look at the oppostion is when you are up against a team which is better than you, where you are the underdogs. In this situation it is unlikely that you can beat them in a straight match up, therefor you need to look for the tactical advantage. Look for weakness's and exploit them.

This is the theory im using with my split tactic and works well in the first scenario, i still need practice at how to best execute the second one but i believe it can be done in this way without as much countering/changing as suggested in parts of this thread.

Not meaning to belittle the work you have put in, just floating an alternative idea/approach.

I agree with that, and, in '06, only changed formation if I was worried about how badly I was playing (as perfomance can vary match to match) or if I was defending a one goal lead against a quality side. However, I think a multi-tactic approach is required in terms of starting a game, as you may choose to manage a team with deperately poor players. Each tactic can be chosen as a standard for a specific side, although I think some sophisticated tactic switching is advantageous during some point in the season, and the above tactics allow for that. The only way to test effectiveness is to give scenarios on how to use them, which is what I have tried to do.

[xavierm]

Originally posted by kernohg:

xavierm Been struggling with tactics for ages. Would really like to see your tactics with instructions etc. can you post them on hear

OK, here's the pack

They're named in French, so I guess I'll have to do a bit of translation :

"Maison" means "Home", "Extérieur" means "Away"

My advice on how to use the tactics :

- always begin with the Normal (Home or Away).

- when facing the dreaded 3-3-2-1-1 or a similar system (playing very deep with counter attacks), lower the D-Line to 5.

- when drawing or loosing at half-time, give'em a bloody team talk, kick their arses, and switch to the Attack system.

- when winning and 10 minuts to go, switch to Defense system.

What needs to be tweaked :

- Corners and free-kicks, I haven't had time to get much into those

- Need a "gung ho" tactic to really flood the opponent with crosses, shots, ...

I'd be glad to hear some feedback. Maybe it's too specific to my team and its capacities.

[xavierm]

Originally posted by wwfan:

I agree with that, and, in '06, only changed formation if I was worried about how badly I was playing (as perfomance can vary match to match) or if I was defending a one goal lead against a quality side. However, I think a multi-tactic approach is required in terms of starting a game, as you may choose to manage a team with deperately poor players. Each tactic can be chosen as a standard for a specific side, although I think some sophisticated tactic switching is advantageous during some point in the season, and the above tactics allow for that. The only way to test effectiveness is to give scenarios on how to use them, which is what I have tried to do.

I'd tend to agree with you. Multi-tactics (or, would I say, multi flavours of the same tactic) are efficient when you face different level of teams : better, far better, equal, worse, far worse. As time goes by, I'm facing only "better" and "far worse" teams, so the need for different tactics seems to dwindle.

[Justified]

Well especially in the Premiership you're going to come up against all "flavoured" teams.

World Class - Arsenal, Man Utd, Chelsea

Very Good - Liverpool, Tottenham

Good - Aston Villa, Newcastle, Man City, Bolton, Everton

Less Good - Wigan, West Ham, Fulham,

Poor - Sheff Utd, Watford, Reading

[Brellier]

im playing as liverpool, and with my approach the only teams i struggle against are Man, Chelsea and Arse, tottenham give me a good match and actually beat me once but that was down to the dreaded goalie mistake after i dominated.

By tweaking a little mid game, just managed a 3 v 2 win at the bridge, just a shame i only started using this tactic/approach in January so its too late to catch the top 2 (chelski and arse). Should lead to a 3rd place, and also got Real in the CL semi's to come, gonna be tricky as about 3 of my midfield squad are ineligable (january signings)

would be interested in any feedback on my tactic (thread here.

Also does anyone have even a semi decent corner routine yet? the nature of my tactic means i attack a lot in wide areas and get lots of corners (sometimes 8 or 9 a game) but never ever score from them.

[Justified]

I play as Liverpool as well and I've found the best way to attack against Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea is down the flanks because their fullbacks are very attacking. Chelsea's formation is cack as well. Play two DMC's against them and they won't get a look in.

[joshantmann]

My computer is close to being thrown out of the window!I just lost at home with my Spurs team to Derby who are in League 2 in 2011!!!!They had 12 shots to my 4, and my defenders just let them run past them!Angry is not the word to describe my feelings towards the game at the mo.Slow tempo with short passing doesnt work, long passing with quick tempo doesnt work, the defenders dont mark, and my strikers couldnt finish their dinner!AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[joshantmann]

LOL.Well i take back everything i said in my last post.Click on the link below, and for any Spurs fan thats worth cheering about!More posession, more shots.I used your tactic ' away v normal formation ' wwfan. Only 1 game gone, but it seemed to work.Now if only i can do that at home!nice one!

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/josha007/scum.jpg

[crazy gra]

contradicting what was said earlier, i think it is important to change instructions during a game depending on how the AI play. i've been thinking about what to change during a match and have basically been changing the frequency of FWRs for my full backs and the DM. if i'm a team that is expected to win, then i'll usually be able to keep their FWRs on mixed or often depending on the opposition formation, but this is a bit different in 07 i think, which i'll mention more about in my second point.

the frequency of FWRs for my full backs and DM has to be altered depending on how the opposition play. if the opposition play with wing backs or non-farrowed wingers then i can keep FWRs on often at home and mixed away. MR/Ls with short or long farrows will mean mixed at home and rarely away. AMR/Ls will always require rare FWRs for my full backs. this could just be suited to the way i play in that the opposition gets their best chances by exploiting my wings and getting crosses, but i've been reducing FWRs for full backs recently and it's working a little better and making my defence a little more solid. as for the DM, i'd reduce FWRs if the opposition was playing with an AMC, although that doesn't happen all too often.

the second point is that i find that the home team will attack a lot more than we were used to in 06. the opposite seems to apply for when they're away i.e. they defend a lot more and will always try to take a point. in 06, if i was drawing near the end of an away game then the home team would usually continue to play a normal system, but in 07 they'll usually go for the win. i'm playing as man utd and the games i've seen this in have been all in the premiership IIRR. once i was 2-0 up away from home and the opposition adopted the 4-2-4 tactic to try to get back into the game.

you say that home tactics should be applied for easier away games, wwfan, but i don't think this will be as effective in 07. yes, we need to attack more against weaker teams, but not to such a great extent as you may have experienced in 07.

[paz]

That is a good result Josh, interesting you used the normal variation and not the attacking varation though, did they play the 4-4-2 with short farrows on wingers? If so you might of helped discover the best sort of set up for countering the attacking variation of that. (I presume they would of set out to attack you at home)

[wwfan]

Thanks for the comments, gra. If you have a poor team then tactic switching is more important than if you have a good one. as for the home tactics in away matches, I'll have to wait and see.

D-Line

Here's a thought in terms of the d-line:

Home against poor sides: It should be deep as most of their attacks are likely to be counters, which can more easily defeat a high d-line than a low one. If the defenders are on the half-way line a quick ball over the top to a quick striker will be a killer. Furthermore, a deeper line opens space for possession.

Away against good sides: It should be high to stop your team defending the 6 yard box when camped inside your own half. Remember England v Portugal in Euro 2004: We don't want to see that!

Admittedly, I might be trying to validate my most recent tacitcal assumptions, but how does this seem as a logiacl tactical ploy?

[RMXtreme]

Wouldn't it be logical to defend deep against good sides to leave more room for the counter?

[wwfan]

Originally posted by RMXtreme:

Wouldn't it be logical to defend deep against good sides to leave more room for the counter?

Not if you are being pushed back into your own half! Surely, defending high would equal defending the edge of the penalty area, and defending deep equal defending the 6-yard box. The counter should be one pass to the high mentality strikers who are ready to roll as the sarrows takes them into positions vacated by the over-lapping fullbacks.

I think!!

[paz]

On the other hand a high DL against teams who have the players of making penetrative passes and will often have pacey strikers could be dangerous, but also as you say you don't want to defend backs to the walls because it invites too much pressure, they will simply barrage your goal and score eventually. So it sounds logical that you want to find a happy medium against good sides.

[RMXtreme]

But wouldn't your defense push up with a high defensive line once you gain possession, making you very prone to the counter?

[paz]

I think the point WWfan is trying to make is a good team won't be trying to counter attack, so unless they change systems you are likely to dominate.

[wwfan]

Originally posted by RMXtreme:

But wouldn't your defense push up with a high defensive line once you gain possession, making you very prone to the counter?

Yes, but if you combine it with a direct high tempo, counter-attacking system you are looking to score on quick rapier-like thrusts rather than play possession football, so it shouldn't happen often.

[RMXtreme]

I'm not a big fan of counter-attacking football as it allmost allways puts the pressure right back on and drags you team out of formation.

But you have to go with what works.

So you don't think playing possesion against a superior opposition is a viable option?

[wwfan]

Originally posted by RMXtreme:

I'm not a big fan of counter-attacking football as it allmost allways puts the pressure right back on and drags you team out of formation.

But you have to go with what works.

So you don't think playing possesion against a superior opposition is a viable option?

Not away from home, although there are variations on the theme (see my above post on 6 tactics). If you are Charlton you don't go to Old Trafford and try and play Utd off the park with controlled, possession football. You try to keep things tight at the back and snatch a winner on the break. You hold shape and pressure players who could play killer through balls. FM goes for realism, hence the theory.

[RMXtreme]

I wasn't intending on playing Man Utd off the park with Charlton, but what I would like to achieve is to have a high amount of possesion by not hoofing the ball up the field everytime and therefore invinting pressure again.

So instead of going for the win, I'm going for a draw by letting my players pass it around in defence and midfield. Trying to tire the opposition who will probably play a high pressing game and then in the final 5-10 minutes go for a winner.

If this is doable in FM I don't know.

[oafcmetty]

Just thought I'd post an update on my Sutton game (conf South). Using a 4-1-2-2-1 system with barrows on my wide (but behind forward) wingers.

2nd season, started unemployed so only had 1/2 a season first year in. Currently top of conf south: P16 W10 D4 L2 GF20 GA6

Going really well so far, especially the GA column. Pre match the opponents usually always tend to have odds of 15-1 to 30-1, so we're massive favourites. Doesn't stop them playing 4-4-2 long farrows against me though.

Still tend to lose possession, but often have more S-o-T than the opponent. Apart from the first 3 or 4 games (when we lost the 2 above) we've not really looked like being beaten. Suspect the early defeats may have been due to the settling in period.

Anyway, all good so far - will see how the rest of the season pans out...!

[mr.rooney]

Originally posted by wwfan:

Instead of answering individual posts, I have read through the forums, taken into account complaints and successes, and come up with the following ideas. Hope you can use them.

Tactical Systems

Disclaimer

These are hugely experimental and have had no testing at all. They are the result of forum reading and analysis and I would love for people to try them out and report back. They may not work; they may work fantastically well. What is life without a risk?

Key Instruction

Keep an eye on the formation screen throughout the match so you can switch tactics when the AI does.

Basic Instructions

All of the instructions are intended for a 4-4-2 Diamond. Please read the opening post for a more complete understanding of individual instructions etc. This post contradicts some of those instructions due to its experimental nature.

Further Experiments

Shorten passing for the home tactics

Lengthen passing for the away tactics

D-Line is hugely experimental and follows supersaint’s theories. It may be that RoT instructions need to become more defensive as the d-line is too high away. If that is the case reduce RoT by 2 or 4 throughout, and drop d-line by the corresponding notch.

Offside Trap is also hugely experimental. Turn it off if it is not working.

Home v The 3-3-2-1-1

Mentality: RoT

Width: 17

Time Wasting: 3

Farrows: Long on wingers, short on FBs

Barrows: None

Sarrows: None

FWRs: Often for all except DMC (mixed) and DCs (rarely)

Tempo: 3

D-Line: 3

CD for Defenders: DCs 17, FBs 15, DMC 15

CD for Attackers: FCs 3, AMC 5, wingers 10

CF for Defenders: DCs 3, FBs 5, DMC 5

CF for Attackers: FCs 17, AMC 15, wingers 10

Counter-Attack: No

Offside Trap: No

Home v Defensive Systems

Mentality: RoT

Width: 15

Time Wasting: 5

Farrows: Long on wingers

Barrows: None

Sarrows: None

FWRs: Often for all except DMC & FBs (mixed) and DCs (rarely)

Tempo: 5

D-Line: 5

CD for Defenders: DCs 15, FBs 15, DMC 15

CD for Attackers: FCs 5, AMC 5, wingers 10

CF for Defenders: DCs 3, FBs 5, DMC 5

CF for Attackers: FCs 15, AMC 15, wingers 10

Counter-Attack: No

Offside Trap: No

Home v Normal Systems

Mentality: RoT

Width: 12

Time Wasting: 8

Farrows: Short on wingers

Barrows: Short on AMC

Sarrows: None

FWRs: Often for all except DMC, FBs & wingers (mixed) and DCs (rarely)

Tempo: 8

D-Line: 8

CD for Defenders: DCs 12, FBs 12, DMC 15

CD for Attackers: FCs 8, AMC 8, wingers 10

CF for Defenders: DCs 3, FBs 5, DMC 5

CF for Attackers: FCs 15, AMC 15, wingers 10

Counter-Attack: No

Offside Trap: No

Away v Normal Systems

Mentality: RoT

Width: 8

Time Wasting: 12

Farrows: Short on wingers

Barrows: Short on AMC

Sarrows: None

FWRs: Often for all except FBs & wingers (mixed) and DMC, DCs (rarely)

Tempo: 12

D-Line: 12

CD for Defenders: DCs 8, FBs 8, DMC 12

CD for Attackers: FCs 12, AMC 12, wingers 14

CF for Defenders: DCs 3, FBs 5, DMC 5

CF for Attackers: FCs 15, AMC 15, wingers 10

Counter-Attack: Yes

Offside Trap: Yes

Away v Attacking Systems

Mentality: RoT

Width: 5

Time Wasting: 15

Farrows: None

Barrows: Short on AMC

Sarrows: FCs

FWRs: Often for all except wingers (mixed) and DMC, FBs & DCs (rarely)

Tempo: 15

D-Line: 15

CD for Defenders: DCs 5, FBs 5, DMC 9

CD for Attackers: FCs 15, AMC 15, wingers 17

CF for Defenders: DCs 3, FBs 5, DMC 5

CF for Attackers: FCs 15, AMC 15, wingers 5

Counter-Attack: Yes

Offside Trap: Yes

Away v Ultra Attacking Systems

Mentality: RoT

Width: 3

Time Wasting: 17

Farrows: None

Barrows: Short on AMC & wingers

Sarrows: FCs

FWRs: Often for all except wingers, DMC, FBs & DCs (rarely)

Tempo: 17

D-Line: 17

CD for Defenders: DCs 3, FBs 3, DMC 6

CD for Attackers: FCs 18, AMC 18, wingers 20

CF for Defenders: DCs 1, FBs 3, DMC 3

CF for Attackers: FCs 15, AMC 15, wingers 3

Counter-Attack: Yes

Offside Trap: Yes

Testing

Testing all 6 formations will take a while. Please post any findings, positive or negative, about these systems. Good luck and thanks to those that decide to try them out.

I would definately be interested in testing test. I'll build and test them over half-season/ a season, and I'll let you know how I get on. One question though, is the home V 3-3-2-1-1 to be used at home against all very defensive systems, or specifically the 3-3-2-1-1?

[MaVeRiXxX]

Had a string of games lately, and I feel I';m getting somewhere, check this last match stats, against Vitoria Setubal, playing a 4-4-2 with longfarrowed MR/L's:

I'll post a instructions list if this still works over the next 5 games.

Cheers, R.