Tactical Theorems and Frameworks '07

[Rashidi]

Presently I'm happy with my training programmes too, it works well, Asmo's thread was a good one and it gave me some ideas for training. And I have to admit, most of my players improve over a season.

[mr.rooney]

I'm very, very bored with FM at the moment. I just have no motivation to play the game at all. I can't really pin down what's stopping me from playing it. It's not that I can't win - I couldn't probably win every trophy with Man Utd if I wanted to.

wwfan, this is definately the best guide for FM there is. I learned so much about the match engine. As I've said on numerous occasions, it should be required reading. You've taken tacical theorie to a greater level than ever before. For this, I salute you.

I'll admit to being a little overwhelmed by the sheer number of variables on the tactics screen. I've read about them, and I feel I have an understanding, but there is quite a lot of variables to get my head around.

You're theroies are a little contradictionary to me when it comes to really quality sides. I'm not doubting they work, certainly not, but I'd handle them in a slightly different manner. For example, if I were playing as Argentina/Brazil, I'd probably give every attacking member of the team a lot of creative freedom. I know that this causes problems with them gelling as a team and won't allow the true greats to stand out, but they have so many quality players that It'd seem logical to me to do it.

If I had motivation to play, I'd certainly go on and try to create my own playing style. I'd take what you've written, and try to make it into something that fits with my style with my teams. But I haven't got that motivation at the moment. Keep it simple is my motto, but your's is a lot more than just keep it simple

I felt like writing something, maybe to promt a discussion about playing styles. I really need something to give me the 'bug' again, that spark to play the game again. Asmo's slider Apathy really gave me that in the last game (definately not a critisicm of your theories wwfan, just a thanks to Asmo for providing his theories to us).

[eggyegg]

currently in my 2nd season with west ham and lying 5th doing ok. always get ripped apart by tottenham (away). They play a 4-1-2-3 formation:

dr--dc---dc--dl

------dmc-----

---md----md---

amr---------aml

------cf------

I can't for the life of me beat them. anyone got any advice?

[El Padre]

Originally posted by eggyegg:

currently in my 2nd season with west ham and lying 5th doing ok. always get ripped apart by tottenham (away). They play a 4-1-2-3 formation:

dr--dc---dc--dl

------dmc-----

---md----md---

amr---------aml

------cf------

I can't for the life of me beat them. anyone got any advice?

That formation absolutely rips me to pieces almost every time, I cant handle it in the slightest.

[eggyegg]

I upped mentality to 14 in last 20 mins as well as closing down for forwards and mids which saw me take 10 shots on goal (6 on target) total but by this time i was already 3-0 down. They had a total of 17 shots!

[AlexisManson]

Originally posted by mr.rooney:

I'm very, very bored with FM at the moment. I just have no motivation to play the game at all. I can't really pin down what's stopping me from playing it. It's not that I can't win - I couldn't probably win every trophy with Man Utd if I wanted to.

To the contrary, I CAN'T stop playing. I got bored of FM 06 very quickly but FM 07 has me completely hooked! Especially today, I've been playing all day, something which I usually never do. The fact that I've just read about someone being bored of it makes me even the more perplexed.

[Guest Smurf]

I posted this in another thread with the same question regarding the 4-1-2-2-1 and the 4-2-1-2-1. i use the same change i do when facing the 4-2-4. the only change you should make to your 4-4-2 in this situation is putting a barrow to cover the wingers/wide forwards. simple tweak, works wonders.

[eggyegg]

i'l give it a go

[oafcmetty]

wwfan - I have to add to the congratulatory remarks. This is a wonderful guide!

In all previous FMs/CMs I've attempted to create some tactics, usually without success, then got bored and scoured the net for tactics others have created and used those.

I was going to do the same for FM07 - tried to create a tactic or two or three... you get the idea, anyway popped onto this forum and saw your thread (for FM06 initially). Had a read and thought - wow! I can see how this makes sense.

So I printed off the whole thread (4 pages as was) and studied it. And read it again. And again.

I'm of the camp in FM that starts unemployed, so needed to create a tactic set for very low league teams - conference north/south level. I started off with a 4-4-2 diamond, and tried this on a couple of 'careers' - sadly I ended up relegating both Harrogate and Stalybridge (separate careers). Anyway, as someone above also said, I wasn't disheartened, as I could watch the highlights and see where I was going wrong.

Recently I started again, and got a job with Sutton, and I've created a system that seems to work. Hence this post!

Playing 4-4-2 at the lowest level didn't seem to be giving me much joy. The defence was quite happy keeping the ball and passing it upfield to strikers making runs, but we just weren't scoring enough. Strikers were too poor to finish off chances, too weak to compete against physical (if limited) defenders. Similarly, the long balls played by my defence weren't accurate enough to give them chances. On the defence side, whilst we coped well with attacks down the middle, the time spent on the ball at the back meant a higher risk of individual errors or dodgy backpasses, and this lead to us conceding more than I'd like. Also we seemed to be vulnerable to wingers getting past our fullbacks, so large numbers of crosses were sent into our area.

So, forced to have a rethink, I went back to a formation I had great success with in the lower leagues in FM06 - 4-1-2-2-1 with a flat back four, a DMC, two central midfielders, two wingers (on the flanks but behind the striker), and a lone striker. I built a Ro2 system around this - with a home formation, an away formation, and a 'special' formation for use against ultra-defensive teams.

Early days as yet, but I've just finished my first season, in the lofty position of 11th (compared to 19th when I took over - 19 games in).

My record stands as: P23 W11 D6 L6 GF29 GA19

Admittedly, on the face of it those figures don't look great, but about half way through 'my' season I modified my formation to drop the defensive line a little in the away formation (conceding goals to too many crosses), and placed barrows on the wingers (home + away formations) as I felt we were being overrun in midfield, even though we were usually winning possession stats.

These changes resulted in us tightening up away from home, and even though our possession stats fell away quite a bit, results greatly improved. Here is the results sequence from when I changed the tactic:

Away - won 2-1

Home - won 2-1

Away - drew 2-2 (was winning 2-1 then had a red card and conceded an O.G. in the 87th)

Home - won 1-0

Away - won 1-0

Away - won 1-0

Home - drew 1-1

Giving a record of P7 W5 D2 L0 GF10 GA5

Compared to P16 W6 D4 L6 GF19 GA14 before the switch

Clearly a small data set, but the first for a lower league team I've seen here. I'm a lot more confident for next season (the first time I'll have seen season 2 in FM07!) and think top 6 should be in reach.

I'll keep you updated!

(if anyone wants to try the tactic, drop me an email - it's my forum username at hotmail.com)

[wwfan]

Originally posted by Alienpruts:

Just a quick note to say thank you to wwfan and all the other tactical "genuises" on this board for their contribution to the enjoyment of the game.

I always considered myself a reasonable manager (LLM of coursse... ) and as such I have always tried to create my own tactics, rather than download some one else's. In the past two years I gained some insight in the game's mechanics and football in particular, and have tried to incorporate my "knowledge" (ahum...) into this game, with a good degree of success.

But after reading your threads on tactical frameworks, I truly understood what I was doing, and I enjoy the game even more than I thought was possible.

For example : FM05 I really could be upset when losing for a long time, and I would quit the game and start over. Not anymore, credits to you people. Now I actually try to understand what is going wrong, and trying to remedy the problem, and having fun doing so.

Now, in FM07 i could be relegating, and still walk around with a smile on my face, because I know at least I tried to do something about it. And I could be experiencing excessive red cards / injuries, but I actually deal with it, as a real world manager should.

So to cut this short : thank you all for your insights. Rest assured the true CM/FM fans appreciate what you are doing, even if we don't find the time to write it down in this forum...

Cheers m8's

Originally posted by oafcmetty:

wwfan - I have to add to the congratulatory remarks. This is a wonderful guide!

In all previous FMs/CMs I've attempted to create some tactics, usually without success, then got bored and scoured the net for tactics others have created and used those.

I was going to do the same for FM07 - tried to create a tactic or two or three... you get the idea, anyway popped onto this forum and saw your thread (for FM06 initially). Had a read and thought - wow! I can see how this makes sense.

So I printed off the whole thread (4 pages as was) and studied it. And read it again. And again.

I'm of the camp in FM that starts unemployed, so needed to create a tactic set for very low league teams - conference north/south level. I started off with a 4-4-2 diamond, and tried this on a couple of 'careers' - sadly I ended up relegating both Harrogate and Stalybridge (separate careers). Anyway, as someone above also said, I wasn't disheartened, as I could watch the highlights and see where I was going wrong.

Recently I started again, and got a job with Sutton, and I've created a system that seems to work. Hence this post!

Playing 4-4-2 at the lowest level didn't seem to be giving me much joy. The defence was quite happy keeping the ball and passing it upfield to strikers making runs, but we just weren't scoring enough. Strikers were too poor to finish off chances, too weak to compete against physical (if limited) defenders. Similarly, the long balls played by my defence weren't accurate enough to give them chances. On the defence side, whilst we coped well with attacks down the middle, the time spent on the ball at the back meant a higher risk of individual errors or dodgy backpasses, and this lead to us conceding more than I'd like. Also we seemed to be vulnerable to wingers getting past our fullbacks, so large numbers of crosses were sent into our area.

So, forced to have a rethink, I went back to a formation I had great success with in the lower leagues in FM06 - 4-1-2-2-1 with a flat back four, a DMC, two central midfielders, two wingers (on the flanks but behind the striker), and a lone striker. I built a Ro2 system around this - with a home formation, an away formation, and a 'special' formation for use against ultra-defensive teams.

Early days as yet, but I've just finished my first season, in the lofty position of 11th (compared to 19th when I took over - 19 games in).

My record stands as: P23 W11 D6 L6 GF29 GA19

Admittedly, on the face of it those figures don't look great, but about half way through 'my' season I modified my formation to drop the defensive line a little in the away formation (conceding goals to too many crosses), and placed barrows on the wingers (home + away formations) as I felt we were being overrun in midfield, even though we were usually winning possession stats.

These changes resulted in us tightening up away from home, and even though our possession stats fell away quite a bit, results greatly improved. Here is the results sequence from when I changed the tactic:

Away - won 2-1

Home - won 2-1

Away - drew 2-2 (was winning 2-1 then had a red card and conceded an O.G. in the 87th)

Home - won 1-0

Away - won 1-0

Away - won 1-0

Home - drew 1-1

Giving a record of P7 W5 D2 L0 GF10 GA5

Compared to P16 W6 D4 L6 GF19 GA14 before the switch

Clearly a small data set, but the first for a lower league team I've seen here. I'm a lot more confident for next season (the first time I'll have seen season 2 in FM07!) and think top 6 should be in reach.

I'll keep you updated!

Thanky you. I'm sure I speak for all of us 'gurus' when I say that it is posts like this that make our day. Thanks for taking the time to write that. Truly appreciated.

Defensive Line

Originally posted by supersaint:

Im just throwing myself into this discussion. Im one of the old school, and Ive always based my tactics from what I see in the 2D - which is the basic to understand how thing works.

I still do this, but I also use it together with ROT and Slider pairing theories, because it seems to fit my own theories of how football should be played.

Ok, to the point:

At the moment Im using a 4-1-3-2 tactic that has been very stable for me. The two first seasons with VÃ¥lerenga ended with two league titles and quite good results in Europe.

The only problem I had there was that I didnt score enough goals, but who cares when you let in 0.4 goals on average over two years?.

Then I was approached by Leeds, which was on a 6 match no-win streak. I took the job and used the tactic again. Well, it didnt start out well, I didnt win in 6 matches. But then I went unbeaten for the reminder of the season.

Still I scored few goals, but another problem occured to me: Almost all goals I got against me come from the wings, to unmarked players within the box. This had not been a problem with VÃ¥lerenga, so I decided that I was gonna tweak the tactic a little bit more the next season.

Both my home and away tactics are what I would call high-pressing tactics. I like to track down the opponent as fast as possible, give them as little time as possible. Therefore my defenders are set to close down relatively high, both home and away(a little higher at home, since teams tend to sit back more there).

This wasnt a problem at VÃ¥lerenga, since the defenders there are relatively good compared to the opponents. But in Leeds this was a big problem. My central defenders where closing down in positions where it should have been either the DMC or the MC doing the job. The result was of course that when the ball was played down the wing, my DCs were out of position, leaving one or two men open in the box.

So after watching my friendlies before the next season, I knew I had to do something. I tried adjust mentality settings and closing down settings at first. It got a little better, but still not good enough.

It wasnt before after my three first league games I realised what was missing. I had a suspicion that I needed to adjust the defensive line, to get a bigger gap between my DMC and DC, so that the DC wouldnt track down players that should be closed down by the DMC.

I know this might not be the solution, but what I did was to set the defensive line to the opposite value of the highest closing down defender. My highest closing down in the home tactic is 16, so I set the defensive line to 4. Away my highest closing down in defence is 14, so I set the defensive line to 6.

The results have been extremly good for me. From loosing the 3 first matches with 1-6 in GD, Im unbeaten for 7 games with a 15-2 GD. My defenders only close down the players that gets into the box, and the number of chances created from wingers crossing against me have been reduced dramatically.

At least that has worked for me

Thanks for sugh a high quality contribution. This definitely demands some testing and could be the vital missing element in tactical design. Will you post back long term results?

Defeating the Chelsea 4-5-1/4-3-3

The problem with this formation is how easily it exploits the space behind your full backs. If your full backs are set to forward runs, then the AML/Rs get behind them on the break, pull the DCs out of position and set up easy chances. In '06 I struggled against it for a long time, but with Elrawkum's help, managed to at first start beating it and then start mashing it.

Step One: Keep the full-backs back. No FWRs.

Step Two: Exploit their flanks. There are huge spaces between the AML/R and the FBs. Focus down the flanks with farrowed (try long and short) wingers.

Step Three: Make sure you have the AMC, FCs and wingers on high forward runs so you can take advantage of quick balls to the wings by flooding their penalty area with attacking players.

Please report back if this still works.

Notes

I hope that you can start enjoying FM again, mr.rooney.

In another thread, a previous 'this game sucks' devotee began to implement the RoT framework and the Breaking Down the 3-3-2-1-1 advice, whilst ignoring the rest. He is experiencing a lot of success. So, please experiment and post back results on breaking the rules. Every little improvement helps.

[joshantmann]

Ive noticed that against Chelsea too.Keep the full backs on rare forward runs and rare closing down, it will stop the wingers gettin forward.Its also good if your amc is very creative, as he will slide balls thru to your strikers.

But wwfan couldnt mind your help.Im having trouble in away games.Was great last season, but this season im struggling.I usually use the rule of two with posession football.I get a lot of 0-0 or 0-1 defeats.At home im great, i use an ultra attacking formation with the full backs going forward, and i create lots of chances.But away is different.Any advice at all?Many thanks.

[wwfan]

I would need to know who you are playing as plus a little more information on the away tactic.

[joshantmann]

I play a 442 diamond with short farrows on the wingers and a barrow on the amc.I play an attacking, direct medium paced style of play.Focus the passing down both flanks, and keep my defensive line just below normal to stop the threat of quick strikers.My crossing percentage is awful, usually around the 11% mark.Even though my wingers are Lennon,Guardado,Benzema and Mitea.My formation is pretty narrow with closing down on quite high.

Do you think any of those settings are incorrect for an away game?My central defenders are pretty good in King,Dawson,Pique and Schmoeller.And wing backs of Vanden Borre,Taiwo,Esparza and Ziegler arent too bad either.So any help you can give me would give my battered keyboard much help!

[wwfan]

Originally posted by joshantmann:

I play a 442 diamond with short farrows on the wingers and a barrow on the amc.I play an attacking, direct medium paced style of play.Focus the passing down both flanks, and keep my defensive line just below normal to stop the threat of quick strikers.My crossing percentage is awful, usually around the 11% mark.Even though my wingers are Lennon,Guardado,Benzema and Mitea.My formation is pretty narrow with closing down on quite high.

Do you think any of those settings are incorrect for an away game?My central defenders are pretty good in King,Dawson,Pique and Schmoeller.And wing backs of Vanden Borre,Taiwo,Esparza and Ziegler arent too bad either.So any help you can give me would give my battered keyboard much help!

What position did you finish last season?

[joshantmann]

I came 3rd last season, had an amazing run of games.Beat chelsea twice, once a 5-3 battering.Im in 2010 now.Im now 17th in the league!And cant seem to do a thing.Any ideas?

[supersaint]

Thanks for sugh a high quality contribution. This definitely demands some testing and could be the vital missing element in tactical design. Will you post back long term results?

No problem.. Ive now played 15 more matches in the league, and it is going quite well. 8 wins, 6 draws and 1 loss. 25-10 in GD.

From what I can see, by setting the DL to the opposite of my highest defender CD, Ive reduced the number of times my DCs goes for a challenge where the DMC should be. It still looks like this after these 15 matches.

But Ive got problems with deep cross-balls instead now... and as always, scoring goals. But one thing at a time.

Im gonna experiment a little bit more with the DL, to see if Im really on the track of something here

[wwfan]

Originally posted by joshantmann:

I came 3rd last season, had an amazing run of games.Beat chelsea twice, once a 5-3 battering.Im in 2010 now.Im now 17th in the league!And cant seem to do a thing.Any ideas?

I would look at deepening the d-line (read supersaint's stuff on a possible theory) and lowering tempo for high quality possession at home. For the away games reduce closing down for the big games and be ready to use the home formation against low ranked sides.

[Ans Gulrik]

I did a test game with a tactic made from the descriptions made in this thread.

I have to say I'm pretty impressed about the result. Not that they aren't good - they are almost too good. In the last couple of games, physical attributes have been heavily overrated - especially Heading, Jumping and acceleration. So I decided to check if that was still the case. I needed money in order to perform the test I had in mind, so I started a Chelsea game, dropped the high profile players and filled the team with average to poor players, who had heading, jumping and acceleration.

Obviously the approach is not ideal, but I still managed to win the PL. Rob Kozluk, Fitz Hall, James Smith, Linvoy Primus played in defense.

The RoT system is too hot for the engine. I only used one tactic (home and away), and didn't change it more than a couple of times in the beginning of the season, where I made it even more direct to suit the poor passing ability of my new players, and added width because teams started defending more and more.

I think that there is another Tactical Theorem to be added : Indidvidual settings should be ruled by the position only - not by the players attributes, as one perhaps would be inclined to belief.

The player that managed most assists had 7 in creativity and 10 in passing.

[joshantmann]

Well wwfan.Since a few tweaks from your suggestions, im unbeaten in 4 games.2 wins and 2 draws.I have had the majority of posession in all games, but my shot count is down.But im expecting that to go up as my forwards get more confidence again.Unless you have any suggestions?

[wwfan]

Originally posted by joshantmann:

Well wwfan.Since a few tweaks from your suggestions, im unbeaten in 4 games.2 wins and 2 draws.I have had the majority of posession in all games, but my shot count is down.But im expecting that to go up as my forwards get more confidence again.Unless you have any suggestions?

Play it out for a bit. Normally, I would tweak width, d-line and time-wasting to get shot counts up.

[MaVeRiXxX]

First of all I'd like to sincerely apologise for any weird jumps-of-thought, but I just came home from work. It was a pretty quiet evening, so I had enough time to scrabble up two A4 size lined paper with all my thoughts, since the only thing I've been doing since yesterday's post is think about FM, tacticwise that is, of course...

WW, I would really like to have some feedback on my thinking here, as well as all the others like Asmodeus, mr.rooney, crazy gra, El Padre, rashidi, Cleon, etc., etc., etc.

Allright, here we go:

Mentality:

-Player instructions overrule team instructions.

-Main uses are to give shape, positioning and movement to team.

-Connects closely to formation, width and DL.

-Influenced by or influences Tempo, Width and Passing Style.

Creative Freedom:

-More means players are more likely to take other instructions lightly, and vice versa.

-Mainly influences other instructions, and is not influenced by any.

-Affects Passing, CD, Tackling(?), FR, RwB, LS, TB, CB and FR(?) & HuB(?)

-Thus only to be used on AMC's, MR/L's, Wingers and Forwards?

-Helps create space if players are potent enough (on wide Width?)

Passing Style:

-Relates to Formation, Tempo, Width, DL.

-And here's a pop-up-as-Ã-am-writing-thought:how about having MR/L's with long passing, no runs, and often crossing? Any ideas, theory or tested, on this?

Tempo:

-Higher means more shots and less possession, lower would thus mean less shots, more possession...

-Affects Passing and is Influenced by Passing.

-There is, I think, a huge difference between playing a normal side or a counter-attacking side?

-Taken into consideration setting this you would have to look at a players ability as well, mainly decisions etc.

Width:

-Always wide at home, to create the space to be able to tear them apart...

-Normal against equal or weaker sides, narrow against stronger sides playing away.

Closing Down:

-Can be used in varied ways, not sure what to say here, I always apply 5x5 rule in most of my games (5 players on 15, 5 players on 5, or 16/14, 17/13, 18/2, never the other way around though...).

Time Wasting:

-Used to be handy to get more possession.

-Doesn't work like that anymore in '07...

-Erm, next?

Defensive Line:

-Deep doesn't go well.

-Neither does Push Up.

-Thus leaving it in the middle makes most sense to me, meaning no matter you're playing stronger or weaker sides, are better playing or outplayed, and counter or get countered, it's always just right.

-Leaving it deep gives opposition more possession, while moving it up means you'll have less space, thus less options, thus less possession.

-Moving it up can get them to counter easier, then you can Offside Trap them, which doesn't really work, it seems.

And I also came up with a theorie about Home and Away tactics, how about they mirror each other, mostly...anyone tried this or has any thoughts on this?

And how about FB's with barrows or even dbarrows? Maybe this will work against the lots of crosses against problem?

Allright, I will try to get some more matches in and report back on any findings...

Cheers guys, R.

[MaVeRiXxX]

I started a new tactic, like this:

and so far I've noticed that my not that fit or great players don't lose a lot of condition in games, they usually end games with 76 to 80 % left...

CHeers, R.

[wwfan]

wwfan, I would really like to have some feedback on my thinking here, as well as all the others like Asmodeus, mr.rooney, crazy gra, El Padre, rashidi, Cleon, etc., etc., etc.

Mentality

Player instructions overrule team instructions.

Inarguable. I believe team ultra-defensive and ultra-attacking mentality overrides individual mentalities, but as for all other instructions, individual overrides team.

Main uses are to give shape, positioning and movement to team.

To an extent. I refer you to my mentality assumptions. Mentality as a risk/reward agent. It is primarily concerned with how likely a player is to make an attacking move. Thus, a DC with mentality of 6 will only make an attacking move if he judges the move as being >70% likely to succeed. An FC with a mentality of 18 will have a go even if he thinks the move has >10% chance of succeeding.

Connects closely to formation, width and DL.

Arguable. Mentality is a formation framework, but width relates to home and away systems. D-line certainly was linked to mentality in ’06 but this is less clear in ’07.

Influenced by or influences Tempo, Width and Passing Style.

Arguable. Passing style and tempo relates to each other, with direct linked to fast and short linked to slow. My passing/mentality splits were experimental but worked well for me in ’06. I know of people having success breaking those rules. Width relates to home and away systems.

Creative Freedom

Many posts on the forum are of the assumption that the creative freedom slider stops a player from obeying other individual instructions. If it is set high then a player will be more unlikely to do what he is told, if set low then he will adhere to instructions. I believe there are elements of truth to this, but it is not the whole story.

A player on high creative freedom will inevitably look for options in attack as soon as he gets the ball. If he decides that the creative/killer ball is on he will play it. Sometimes it will come off, sometimes it won't. That is the very nature of creativity in all walks of life. If he decides the creative/killer ball is unfeasible, he will play a safe ball and move into position to try again. Hence, decision making is also key to a truly great creative player. A creative player with good decision making will invariably choose the right time to play the right ball. Other factors will influence whether it comes off, such as the defensive stats of the opposition players trying to intercept the ball/tackle the creative player and the off the ball/decision making stats of the player trying to pick up the pass, but on the whole a player with good creativity/decision making will create chances. Alternatively, a player with good creativity/bad decision making will often try to play unfeasibly difficult balls that will result in interceptions and counter attacking moves more often than creating chances for his own team. When setting instructions for such a player, be aware that giving him total freedom will likely result in you losing possession and having to defend quick countering moves as often as getting into scoring positions yourself.

Creativity is not flair and must be managed accordingly. A creative player creates chances for others; a flair player creates chances for himself. Thus, whereas a flair player can be closely marked and looking out of the game, only to do something extraordinary and score out of nothing, a creative player needs time and space in which to operate, so he has more opportunity to spot the creative pass. Thus, when positioning a creative player, make sure he is loosely zonal marking with closing down set to a minimum, so that he is always in the maximum amount of space to receive a pass. If he has excellent decision making/teamwork/workrate/off the ball, he could also be assigned a free role, which would allow him to rove about the pitch looking for space and thus become more useful. Creative players are often low on bravery, so can be marked out of the game by hard-men opponents. Be aware of this if you feel your creative player is not performing, and possibly look to play him deeper which will draw his marker out of position and create space in front of him for others to exploit.

Finally, in terms of creativity for the whole team, be careful setting it too high for too many players. If you do this, too many people will be looking for the killer ball, and your truly creative players will have less opportunity to influence a game. Also, too many passes are likely to be intercepted as they are being hit from unfeasible positions on the pitch, and possession will turn over almost the second you have the ball. Tweak it high for a few players, and let the others focus on more mundane tasks, such as defending or scoring goals.

Off the Ball

I have read a fair number of posts complaining that the FCs refuse to stay in the middle of the pitch and drift wide. The standard response to this is to reduce creative freedom to the lowest notch for the front men. This is nonsensical. Forwards drift wide to find space to get the ball. If they stay in one position all match they are too easy to mark out of the game. Forwards and attacking-minded midfielders need to be encouraged to look for space. In this respect, a high level of creative freedom alongside excellent off the ball stats will be extremely beneficial. If one FC moves wide to pick up the ball it won’t matter as long as other players have the requisite creative freedom and off the ball to move into the space he has created. Higher levels of creative freedom have to be regarded as optimal for forward players in order to create space and move the defence around.

Teamwork

A player with high teamwork attribute will religiously obey the manager’s instructions, whether they are appropriate for the situation he is in or not. Teamwork is great when you have applied the optimum settings for the tactical situation your team is in, but will actually be disadvantageous if you have set inappropriate instructions. For example, if you have set closing down to 20 then a player with good teamwork will constantly close down, no matter what position/situation he finds himself in. This is where the maximum or minimum slider settings begin to fail and why moderation must be applied. If a player with high teamwork is told to close down to 20, then he will do it without fail; if he is told to close down often but not always, his decision making becomes more important, as he then has to decide on the appropriate moment to apply the closing down instruction.

A player with low teamwork is obviously more difficult to manage as you can never be sure whether he will obey instructions or not. This will be doubly difficult if he has bad decision making, as he will regularly do what he wants, no matter if it is a good decision or not. All a manager can do with this sort of player is try to ensure he is in a position that won't cause huge harm to his own team, but where his unpredictability will sometimes come off and create chances/opportunities to score.

Decision Making

Decision making is hugely important in how you instruct a player. The higher the decision making stat, the more mixed instructions you can give him, as you are sure he will take the right option at the right time. Thus, a central defender with good defensive stats and high decision making can be asked to close down to mixed, as you can trust him to apply the instruction when required. A central defender with bad decision making should be told to close down rarely, which will keep him between the striker and the goal and thus make the attacking player try to go past him, rather than committing himself to a rash challenge. This can be applied right down the line for every position on the pitch. If a player has poor decision making, give him firm instructions to do a job; if he has good decision making, trust him to do the right thing. For a winger, for example, you could tell him to choose between through balls and crossing; with them both set to mixed, as you believe he will invariably pick the right option. I could go on and on about this, but I'm sure it is pretty obvious by now.

Passing Style

Relates to Formation, Tempo, Width, DL.

Yes to tempo, not sure about the others

And here's a pop-up-as-Ã-am-writing-thought: how about having MR/L's with long passing, no runs, and often crossing? Any ideas, theory or tested, on this?

Not that I know of

Tempo

Higher means more shots and less possession, lower would thus mean less shots, more possession...

Seems to be the case

Affects Passing and is Influenced by Passing.

Yes

There is, I think, a huge difference between playing a normal side or a counter-attacking side?

I certainly regard them as two different modes of play and tactical plans should be made to combat either

Taken into consideration setting this you would have to look at a players ability as well, mainly decisions etc.

Home and away are key in deciding this

Width

Always wide at home, to create the space to be able to tear them apart...

That’s the theory

Normal against equal or weaker sides, narrow against stronger sides playing away.

That’s the theory (again!!)

Closing Down

Can be used in varied ways, not sure what to say here, I always apply 5x5 rule in most of my games (5 players on 15, 5 players on 5, or 16/14, 17/13, 18/2, never the other way around though...).

I suggest reading supersaint’s stuff. Low d-line = high CD, high d-line = low CD. Tha’s how I (roughly) played like this in ’06, although until supersaint’s post I didn’t make the connection

Time Wasting

Used to be handy to get more possession.

Yes, but was disastrous against the 3-3-2-1-1

Doesn't work like that anymore in '07...

I can’t answer that, but I know its over effectiveness was being evaluated

Defensive Line

Deep doesn't go well.

From most posts, no, but apply supersaint’s theory in testing

Neither does Push Up.

From most posts, no, but apply supersaint’s theory in testing

Thus leaving it in the middle makes most sense to me, meaning no matter you're playing stronger or weaker sides, are better playing or outplayed, and counter or get countered, it's always just right.

Not necessarily

Leaving it deep gives opposition more possession, while moving it up means you'll have less space, thus less options, thus less possession.

Only if they are attacking, not if they are playing defensively

Moving it up can get them to counter easier, then you can Offside Trap them, which doesn't really work, it seems.

I would argue against using a high d-line against teams that sit back

I think d-line settings are vital. There needs to be a lot of thought put into how they work for ’07. Supersaint’s theory seems to be the best on offer at the moment. Deep = high CD (mirrored d-line + CD = 20). High = low CD (mirrored d-line + CD = 20). Further testing and thought gratefully received.

And I also came up with a theorie about Home and Away tactics, how about they mirror each other, mostly...anyone tried this or has any thoughts on this?

Pretty much how I envision it and concurrent with my theories

And how about FB's with barrows or even dbarrows? Maybe this will work against the lots of crosses against problem?

Worth testing

[Rashidi]

Mentality:

-Player instructions overrule team instructions.

True but only on extreme sets.

-Main uses are to give shape, positioning and movement to team.

Yes it does, but the adding of arrows can have dramatic effects. The effects are now more apparent for barrows for example. If you set a player with barrows, he will now track back even further, great if you want to play backs to the wall. But bad if you want to pass your way to the front

-Connects closely to formation, width and DL.

Mentality affects the shape of a formation, if you set everyone on the same mentality you can't tell the difference, but one you start sticking high mentalities on some, you will notice they take up different positons on the pitch, the passes they play are also affected. Having distinct groups of people on mentality is always a good idea.

Width seems to affect your stance, attacking or defensive, BUT this is formation specific. Formations like 433 and 343 even when set on narrow width settings still over great options for attacking. Width helps if your team is poor at passing too, cos it reduces the range for passing. Defensive Line is a bit strange. In theory a DL of high and low should translate easily in the game. However it does not. The only thing I can say is that perhaps higher DL makes the midfield and defense come closer, but this is very minor since mentality has a more drastic effect. You can play the same DL settings and still be successful. When playing against a good side, you can have a low to normal dl and still press heavily to win the ball.

-Influenced by or influences Tempo, Width and Passing Style.

Tempo can work with short passing and direct passing. Both can be successful, it depends on your shape. A 442 can be created to be ala "Arsenal" or it could be set up like Boltons, you can do both. How you make it work, is all dependant on your player instructions. If you want to employ short and quick tempo, like Arsenal, then a formation with 3 groups of mentality settings : 6-8 for DCs 8-10 for FBs..10-12 for midfield and 13-15 for attackers, set DLine to 8 and take off RWB from the whole team except for one striker. The team will tick tock the ball at light speed to the front line. To make it even more effective give one of the striker RWB Max and tell the other to cross ball often, it will wreak havoc in a defense.

You can create counterattacking tactics in the same vein too. Its wholly dependant on the type of formation you're playing. I've learnt to use an attacking 343 in my game and I do not get flanked as much as I did with the demo, precisely because of my judicious use of player instructions[/b]

Creative Freedom:

-More means players are more likely to take other instructions lightly, and vice versa.

-Mainly influences other instructions, and is not influenced by any.

-Affects Passing, CD, Tackling(?), FR, RwB, LS, TB, CB and FR(?) & HuB(?)

-Thus only to be used on AMC's, MR/L's, Wingers and Forwards?

-Helps create space if players are potent enough (on wide Width?)

CF just means how much a player will adhere to your instructions. So if you have a player with high CF and he is your designated corner kick taker and you have told him to aim for the post, he will not listen to you. If a player has high cf and you give it to a defender and you tell him to tightmark "A" he may tightmark the keeper cos he feels horny.

It affects everything from passing, positioning, runs, shooting, defending and toilet breaks. Use only if you have too. And its highly advisabe to use the in conjunction with player swapping for wingers and strikers if you are using a very attacking formation. I've gone from an average of 8 to 15 shots on goal now, but again it is tempered by decisions, teamwork and workrate. If a player is given high CF and he has low workrate, its not a good move.

Passing Style:

-Relates to Formation, Tempo, Width, DL.

-And here's a pop-up-as-Ã-am-writing-thought:how about having MR/L's with long passing, no runs, and often crossing? Any ideas, theory or tested, on this?

Depends on the kind of football you want to play, possession football = short, slow tempo. Gunners =Short/quick tempo, perhaps even narrow width. If you want to play 'Pool, short/normal tempo/direct passing on flanks and high closing down all over the pitch. No one set way of playing, but its the combos that are tough to set up. The game handles these formations well 442 Diamond at normal tempo/narrow and wide with both short passing and high tempo...the 4132, the 442, and the 343.

Tempo:

-Higher means more shots and less possession, lower would thus mean less shots, more possession...

-Affects Passing and is Influenced by Passing.

-There is, I think, a huge difference between playing a normal side or a counter-attacking side?

-Taken into consideration setting this you would have to look at a players ability as well, mainly decisions etc.

Yes and No, to say tempo is the prime reason why would be false, its tempered by workrate, the formation you've set up, the closing down instructions and the form of passing you use. I can have a fast tempo formation with a low quality shot count formation too. But that kind of formation would be narrow. I can't really say anything about counterattacking since i don't believe you need those tactics. I good attacking tactic can also switch to counter attacking, all you need to do is to drop the DLine, and have direct passing already built into the tactic. So you could play a game of possession football for 120 minutes and hit a really good side with a sucker punch late in the game. I have a pkm that can prove this.

Width:

-Always wide at home, to create the space to be able to tear them apart...

-Normal against equal or weaker sides, narrow against stronger sides playing away.

If you are a poor side and you play with high width you'l also get torn apart. I believe you need balance. Increasing width helps create more chances, but it also elevates the risk of being punched through the centre. Having width at normal should be enough for all teams. Narrow to normal for poor sides. If you want to attack them on the counter..bring down the DLine, but don't change your width. If you have farrows in your formation, this may not work as you get pulled apart. So the balance with closing down has to be right. Which is why I am a firm advocate of CDs which close down high in front, sometimes high in midfield and low at the back or...high at the back and in front but low in the middle. It depends on the kind of footy you want

Closing Down:

-Can be used in varied ways, not sure what to say here, I always apply 5x5 rule in most of my games (5 players on 15, 5 players on 5, or 16/14, 17/13, 18/2, never the other way around though...).

I don't think this works as well as my way of closing down. I prefer aggressive closing down in front.

Time Wasting:

-Used to be handy to get more possession.

[/b]not anymore[/b]

Defensive Line:

-Deep doesn't go well.

-Neither does Push Up.

-Thus leaving it in the middle makes most sense to me, meaning no matter you're playing stronger or weaker sides, are better playing or outplayed, and counter or get countered, it's always just right.

-Leaving it deep gives opposition more possession, while moving it up means you'll have less space, thus less options, thus less possession.

-Moving it up can get them to counter easier, then you can Offside Trap them, which doesn't really work, it seems.

[/b]Covered that earlier[/b]

And I also came up with a theorie about Home and Away tactics, how about they mirror each other, mostly...anyone tried this or has any thoughts on this?

And how about FB's with barrows or even dbarrows? Maybe this will work against the lots of crosses against problem?

Won't work, barrows will mean they go further back..you want them to close down earlier don't you.

As always I remain

R

[ronaldow]

Hi there

playing as arsenal..just atarted acutually...but I find I contnually have possesion les than 50% even at home...I have left a save game vs Portsmouth at home and have kept trying different factors but nothing consistent...tried short and slow..no luck...not sure how t oplay defensive line but though being as i was home and a much better team i should push up...is this correct???

I normally employ the old 4-1-2-2-1....1 def mid....2 MC..2 AM/Wing and 1 target man (henry)...but no luck

Any suggestions guys.

I DO mean nearly always under 50% possesion AT home vs Portsmouth...somehting is not right....I have attacking mentality (slider 14/15)..normal creative freedom (slider 13...passing short ( slider 4)..tempo equal to passing (slider 4..slow)....closing down always (15)...wasting time rarely (5)...defensive line (push up..about 11/12)

Cheers guys.

[MaVeRiXxX]

To Ronaldow:

Try to set tempo to 10, wasting time to 10, then look into free roles and hold up ball...

And to WW and Rashidi, thanks a lot, of course, first of all, but you seem to be not getting along about CF here, what's the story?

Anyway, over the last couple of games, I don't fully agree on your assumptions on mentality WW, I prefer to refer to your type 1 and 2 combined thingies: thus meaning that it is a positioning and when-do-I-attack-and-defend thing, based on risk/reward programming.

I'll be back with more words...

Cheers, R.

[joshantmann]

ronaldow.Try reducing the closing down to about 5 on the slider.Have the closing down low at the back,medium in the middle and high upfront.Ive just switched to this and is working a treat.I get much more posession than i used to.And keep your defensive midfielder on hold up ball and mixed passing, he will control things then.

[supersaint]

From most posts, no, but apply supersaint’s theory in testing

Ok, I had the time to watch a bit more matches and test out some things regarding the defensive line.

From what I have seen with my Leeds team(who have propelled into 3rd place now), I can say that a deep defensive line can work very well - even with great possession against many teams. I played Blackburn out of the park away from home in the League Cup, won 4-1 against Villa at home with a possesion of 56%.

Even though my tactic isnt perfect, it does work very well when the defensive line is set according to the closing down of my defenders.It might be because of the DMC that I use in my tactic, and that it wont work as well with flat midfields.

When my DMC close down the opponents attacking midfielder, he leaves a gap behind him. The DC will then, when having high closing down, pick up any players that comes into this space with the ball.

The problem is of course that when he does this, the defence is wide open, so that the opponent gets too much space, if the ball is played through or out for a deep cross.

When applying the defensive line deeper, the DMC will wait a bit longer before closing down, then the defender stays back more often than when playing with higher defensive line.

If you watch the 2D and look at counter-attacks against you where all your players stays up, and your defenders stays back - you will see that the defenders with high closing down will track down any players with the ball. Whilst this can be a good thing with great defenders, it can be deadly.

So from what I have seen so far, it seems to be a direct link between the defensive line and the five defending players(4 def + DM) closing down settings.

I cant put my finger on exact how it links, because it needs extensive testing, with different formations, to see how it links up.

And just now Im sitting 160 miles from my computer, at my girlfriends house, with no access to FM

Thats just typical, isnt it? When you finally discover something intresting, the real life catches up with you

[supersaint]

To put my own words into a more understandable theory:

"If you want to play with a high defensive line(ie pushing up), the 5 defenders closing down should be low, to keep players in position when the AI counter-attacks you. If you want to defend deep, the 5 defenders closing down should be high. This is to keep distance between DMC and DCs, and to continously harass the AI which is important to avoid being played out of the park."

I cant guarantee anything, as I still have to do some extensive testing, but feel free to test and see if it works for you, and report back.

Oh, I cant wait to get home - and Ive only been here for 30 mins

[Rashidi]

Originally posted by MaVeRiXxX:

To Ronaldow:

Try to set tempo to 10, wasting time to 10, then look into free roles and hold up ball...

And to WW and Rashidi, thanks a lot, of course, first of all, but you seem to be not getting along about CF here, what's the story?

We are essentially saying the same thing

[der]

i dont know what to do, my squad doesnt works, since two or three years, i try the use the RoT tactic, im playing with juventus, i think my team is good, im in the season 2010/2011

GK:

Buffon

Sereni

Mirante

Defense:

Andreolli (since 2009)

Vanden Borre (since 2006)

Boulharouz (since 2008)

Radoi (since 2007)

Jelic (regen, since 2010)

Chiellini

Balzaretti

Scurto (since 2010)

Midfield:

Paro

Mascherano (since 2009)

Schweinsteiger (since 2010)

Marchionni

Belluschi (since 2007)

Di Natale (since 2009)

Antonio Rossi (regen)

John Obi Mikel (since 2009)

Attack:

Trezeguet

Russo Manuel

Okaka

Del Piero

Bojinov

the team simply dont works, i tried to dont add to much new players in a new season, but it was alltimes the same, i bought Boulharouz and tried him with Radoi, the defence was s**t, they made the preseason together in this year i won the Serie A. 2009 came, and i bought Andreolli, i wanted him to play with Boulharouz, for 3 or 4 months, totally s**t, the same with Boulharouz and Radoi in that season and also with Radoi / Andreolli, i won nothing in the season 2009/2010, in average i got a goal in every game. So the season 2010/2011 cames, and again, totaly s**t, i loose again Hereeven in CL(or something) at home, because two thrwo ins, i loose the supercup against Blackburn, 1-0, a freekick into the penalty room, header from a player, goal.Everytime when a new season begins, i try to make better then before, more order, better training, but nothing, always the same, i'm going to destroy my computer.

Here my Formation

Buffon

Andreolli

Boulharouz

Radoi

Chiellini

Vanden Borre

Obi Mikel

Mascherano

Schweinsteiger

Trezeguet

Bojinov

it is the tactic from "el padre" Rot Solid, i always change, home and away

[MaVeRiXxX]

Originally posted by rashidi1:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MaVeRiXxX:

To Ronaldow:

Try to set tempo to 10, wasting time to 10, then look into free roles and hold up ball...

And to WW and Rashidi, thanks a lot, of course, first of all, but you seem to be not getting along about CF here, what's the story?

We are essentially saying the same thing </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We as in you and me, or you and WW?

How do you feel on this explaination on CF, "that it is a positioning and when-do-I-attack-and-defend thing, based on risk/reward programming."

And doesn't high CF for DC's also mean they might try more "creative" means of defending, thus meaning that if set on hard tackling, high CD etc., he might try the occasional elbow more?

Or instead of always sliding in hard from the back, try a "let's run around him first"

-approach?

What I'm trying to ask here is: how sure are you, WW, that CF is a mainly attacking attribute?

And supersaint, I am playing with a first-notch-in-deep DL right now, with my CB's on mixed/rarely, FB's on mixed, and the rest of my players on just above mixed to high CD, and this seems to be working well. Using zonal marking only, btw, and my defenders and two MC's on tight marking. How do you apply marking etc., since this seems to vary a lot as well?

Der, would you be willing to try THIS TACTIC and let me know how it goes over five or ten games?

I kinda forgot was and to whom I was trying to say when and why, but I have to finish my Feyenoord away game first, might be back in 15, might be back later, or tomorrow, we'll see...

Cheers, R.

[MaVeRiXxX]

Paused it again, just popped up:

I've watched three games in full by now, and even though it looks pretty good, I still feel a lot more would be possible if my two strikers were part of the team, instead of mainly swimming upfront. They are still able to recieve balls and do good things with them, but not as much as I think they could...And now I can't choose between raising mentality for everyone except the FC's, upping the DL or lowering the FC's, or anything else?

Anyone got any ideas on this, prefferably tested?

Cheers, R.

[noelnoel]

hi wwfan.. can u explain the meaning of barrow farrow and sarrow?

[MaVeRiXxX]

Forgot to mention that this mainly occurs after defending a attacking move and just regained possession, or after a set piece by opposition. Looks as if it's down to my FC's Def. Corners and FK's being set to Stay Forward...and because they have high closing down they will thus close down their CB's...

Cheers, R.

[Rashidi]

we've both said CF is not an entirely attacking factor, its something that affects the whole way a player responds to your instructions

[MaVeRiXxX]

Originally posted by noelnoel:

hi wwfan.. can u explain the meaning of barrow farrow and sarrow?

Arrow: the dotted line you draw with your RMB(right mouse button)

barrow: back-arrow

farrow: forward-arrow

sarrow: side-arrow

and then there's also

darrow: diagonal arrow

dbarrow: diagonal back-arrow

Cheers, R.

[MaVeRiXxX]

Originally posted by rashidi1:

we've both said CF is not an entirely attacking factor, its something that affects the whole way a player responds to your instructions

Allright, then I think I've been using it pretty logical, thanks for explaining and re-explaining and re-explaining...appreciated

Cheers, R.

[noelnoel]

Originally posted by MaVeRiXxX:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noelnoel:

hi wwfan.. can u explain the meaning of barrow farrow and sarrow?

Arrow: the dotted line you draw with your RMB(right mouse button)

barrow: back-arrow

farrow: forward-arrow

sarrow: side-arrow

and then there's also

darrow: diagonal arrow

dbarrow: diagonal back-arrow

Cheers, R. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thanks dude.. i should have thought of that

[MaVeRiXxX]

Originally posted by noelnoel:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MaVeRiXxX:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noelnoel:

hi wwfan.. can u explain the meaning of barrow farrow and sarrow?

Arrow: the dotted line you draw with your RMB(right mouse button)

barrow: back-arrow

farrow: forward-arrow

sarrow: side-arrow

and then there's also

darrow: diagonal arrow

dbarrow: diagonal back-arrow

Cheers, R. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thanks dude.. i should have thought of that </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No worries, we're all here to seek, and if possible give, help, right?

[MaVeRiXxX]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH

It started again.....http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4342073052/m/2922010452?r=2922010452#2922010452

THis is the worst thing ever, because it always happens at the times when you don't need them. I was 1-3 up against Feyenoord away, in 85th(!!!) minute, when a FM window popped up saying (in windows skin) "Array acces out of bounds", you can only click OK, then get another window saying the application will be closed due to Bla-Di-Bla-Di-Bla-Da-Da, F!, U!, C!, K!.

Anyway, I'll try it again and let you guys know cuase if this is going to happen moe often I won't be able to play at all...

Cheers, R.

[mr.rooney]

Originally posted by wwfan:

I hope that you can start enjoying FM again, mr.rooney.

In another thread, a previous 'this game sucks' devotee began to implement the RoT framework and the Breaking Down the 3-3-2-1-1 advice, whilst ignoring the rest. He is experiencing a lot of success. So, please experiment and post back results on breaking the rules. Every little improvement helps.

I didn't say that the game sucks. I think the exact opposite - I think it is definately the best version of the series, and the closest to real life that it has every been. I only said that I was bored and wasn't enjoying it at the moment.

[ronaldow]

hi there

Just wondering If i set the menatalities of all my starting 11...defenders to be defensive....attackers atacking etc....then if the box is ticekd for mentality then surely this menatlity will remain for the whole game.....does that mean if you go to your team instructions and change the tean mentality, does it have NO effect at all as all thge payers have already been given their individual mentalities and the box is ticked....surely the only way the team mentality is useful is if you change the individual mentalities of your players to ''Team''.

Am i missin summat or is that correct....if so then surley this holds true for all the attributes...passing...closing down etc..

Have i made sense or should i try to expolain again..sorry guys if makes no sense.

[wwfan]

Originally posted by MaVeRiXxX:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rashidi1:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MaVeRiXxX:

To Ronaldow:

Try to set tempo to 10, wasting time to 10, then look into free roles and hold up ball...

And to WW and Rashidi, thanks a lot, of course, first of all, but you seem to be not getting along about CF here, what's the story?

We are essentially saying the same thing </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We as in you and me, or you and WW?

How do you feel on this explaination on CF, "that it is a positioning and when-do-I-attack-and-defend thing, based on risk/reward programming."

And doesn't high CF for DC's also mean they might try more "creative" means of defending, thus meaning that if set on hard tackling, high CD etc., he might try the occasional elbow more?

Or instead of always sliding in hard from the back, try a "let's run around him first"

-approach?

What I'm trying to ask here is: how sure are you, WW, that CF is a mainly attacking attribute?

And supersaint, I am playing with a first-notch-in-deep DL right now, with my CB's on mixed/rarely, FB's on mixed, and the rest of my players on just above mixed to high CD, and this seems to be working well. Using zonal marking only, btw, and my defenders and two MC's on tight marking. How do you apply marking etc., since this seems to vary a lot as well?

Der, would you be willing to try THIS TACTIC and let me know how it goes over five or ten games?

I kinda forgot was and to whom I was trying to say when and why, but I have to finish my Feyenoord away game first, might be back in 15, might be back later, or tomorrow, we'll see...

Cheers, R. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think CF aids attacking and hinders defending. It's not to say you can't experiment with it defensively, but as a manager, I would prefer my defenders to stick to a defensive plan while my attackers remain unpredictable.

@ mr.rooney: I wasn't suggesting you did. When I was writing the notes section I was scribbling down random thoughts in my head. The 2nd paragraph wasn't meant to have any connection with the first. I'm sorry if you read it that way. It wasn't my intention.

Basic Home & Away Settings

Home: Low d-line & high CD defenders. Lots of CF and low CD up front. Wide and low time-wasting. Farrows.

Away: High d-line and low CD defenders. High CF & CD up front. Narrow and highish time wasting. Counter-attack. No farrows. Sarrowed FCs to work the flanks.

Any thoughts?

[joshantmann]

I just tried using a high dl away to watford, and it really doesnt work.My defence got caught out all the time with balls over the top all the time.And i could also see that playing narrow with wingers isnt a good idea, the full backs get left with 2 players to defend, and the home team get lots of chances.and the defensive midfielder is stuck to the defence and there is huge gap in the middle of the park for the other team to play in.And this was all against Watford!!I think a low line defence is the way to go both home and away.I think it will give your central defenders a bit more time as well to make a decision.

[FourThreeThree]

Originally posted by eggyegg:

currently in my 2nd season with west ham and lying 5th doing ok. always get ripped apart by tottenham (away). They play a 4-1-2-3 formation:

dr--dc---dc--dl

------dmc-----

---md----md---

amr---------aml

------cf------

I can't for the life of me beat them. anyone got any advice?

I prefer a flat 3 central midfield. The center midfielder plays as a defensive midfielder while the two next to him play an attacking game. The reason for this preference is width. You won't get more defensive depth but you do with width. The two central midfielders that goes up and attack have high closing down. I notice they also close down on wingers and midfieders which also means your winger can do less closing down and more attacking.

[wwfan]

Originally posted by joshantmann:

I just tried using a high dl away to watford, and it really doesnt work.My defence got caught out all the time with balls over the top all the time.And i could also see that playing narrow with wingers isnt a good idea, the full backs get left with 2 players to defend, and the home team get lots of chances.and the defensive midfielder is stuck to the defence and there is huge gap in the middle of the park for the other team to play in.And this was all against Watford!!I think a low line defence is the way to go both home and away.I think it will give your central defenders a bit more time as well to make a decision.

How high was the d-line and were you playing a specific DMC? Also, what were your FWRs instructions for the FBs and wingers. Finally, did you have counter-attack ticked.

NB. As you were playing Watford I would assume the pre-match odds regarded you as heavy favourites. If so, the high d-line system shouldn't be employed and you should use the home tactic. It's a matter of picking and choosing the right systems for the right games.

[joshantmann]

Was playing quite a high line and had huddlestone as the dmc.So do you think if you are to play a high dl, you dont need to have a dmc?But instead have a normal flat midfield 4?I held the full backs from any forward runs, and there mentality was on the first notch of defensive.Counter attack was ticked as well.Just played at home to reading and won 2-1 using a low dl.But i could tell from watching the key highlights that the gap between the dmc and the amc is far too big.I have huddlestone on closing down often so he gets to the ball as quick as he can, but it just gives the other team more time to pick the pass.Playing down the wings seemed to be the way to go though as they got past players a lot and got far more crosses in.I think also having cd low on defenders and higher as you go up the pitch worked better as well.There is just so much information on these forums i never know what bits to pick out!

[Tini]

Hmm. I've had mixed success using this theorems as a basis.

First was Chelesa. Finished first, won everything, pretty much. No problems.

Next up Fulham. Finished 7th, won the FA Cup. Overachieved massively on the whole and was really impressed.

Now I'm playing as Watford, and I'm having major issues. I have huge problems getting more than 45% possession - I'm lucky if I top about 42%. I'm playing with a 4-1-4-1 for numerous reasons (I'm having major issues with injuries for my strikers - and a lot of them aren't very good, with my best one being out injured). Shots in general are okay now that I've deepened my defensive line, but they have a horrible conversion rate (possibly down to team quality? But for example I just lost 4-1 to Portsmouth, at home. They're in 15th and I'm in 18th.)

Playing with a DMC, no farrows on the FBs; short farrows on the wingers, and a darrow to the regular AMC spot for one of my midfielders. Mentalities in general follow RoT, although I play with a deep defensive line. Occasionally add 2 to the passing mentality due to the Mid-Quality Assumption.

Any advice in the hope of raising possession? For a better illustration of the problem, posession stats away at Lincoln were an embarressing 58%-42% in favour of them.

Cheers.

[crazy gra]

wwfan: i think everyone can now rest assured that they can always make the right decision with a certain set-piece with this gem of a hint i've just seen:

"a player with a high penalty taking attribute is a good player to use to take your spot kicks"

what can go wrong now that we know that previously-elusive conundrum?

on a more serious note, i've been waiting to get most of my first team squad available so i can examine the effect of target men. i think it depends on how your system plays on whether it's effective or not, but it still works very well in my 4-5-1 that i've now got sorted out.